2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary Clinton is playing a Dangerous Game: How her Anti-Bernie TP's Could Cost Her & America
Last edited Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)
Hillary Clinton is playing a dangerous game: How her anti-Bernie talking points could cost her and America big time
As her lead in the primary widens, Clinton seems to be moving back toward the center. This could be a huge mistake
Conor Lynch
Hillary Clinton is starting to remind progressives why the name Clinton brings up such a mixed bag of emotions, and why its so hard to believe Clintons pivot to the left this campaign season. Lately, the progressive who likes to get things done has gone after her main competition, Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., for his advocacy of a single-payer healthcare system, which is a staple of progressive policy, found in many other industrialized states like Canada and Taiwan. Taking a page out of the GOP handbook, Clinton and her campaigners have gone into fear-mongering mode about the fact that such a plan would cause an increase in taxes on the middle class.
Hardworking, middle-class families need a raise, not a tax increase, said Clinton during the second Democratic debate, while a senior adviser to a pro-Clinton organization tweeted: Hillary Clinton was the only one who ruled out raising taxes on the middle class others talked about raising taxes to 70 and 90 percent. Of course, this is nonsense. Sanders only stated the fact that the top rate was over 90 percent under Dwight Eisenhower. He was quite clear when he said: We havent come up with an exact number yet, but it will not be as high as the number under Dwight D. Eisenhower, which was 90 percent. Im not that much of a socialist compared to Eisenhower. (Plus, people seem to forget that he is talking about a progressive tax, with top rates only on income over a certain level, not all of the income an eligible individual earns.)
Indeed, the Clinton campaign is starting to sound more and more like Republicans. Chris Christie said something similar last month (albeit more crudely): The socialist says theyre going to pay for everything and give you everything for free, except they dont tell you theyre going to raise your taxes to 90 percent to do it.
Pants on Fire, ruled PolitiFact, calling it a grossly misleading characterization.
Grossly misleading characterizations are expected from GOP candidates, but the Clinton campaign? Nobody mentions the fact that a single-payer plan (which would admittedly be impossible to get through Congress in todays political climate) would significantly lower the expenses of middle-class families and, with the proper regulations and price controls, lower the outrageously high healthcare costs in the United States.
It is certainly an interesting strategy for the Clinton campaign, which has regained its confidence over the past month or so, as her numbers have jumped more than 10 percentage points since the first debate in October. (Sanders has also gone up about 6 points, but is now more than 25 points behind Clinton.) Things are going well, so why would Clinton attack Sanders with a petty GOP-style tactic?
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Sanders has been quite clear from the onset that he will not be a spoiler and that he will vote for the Democratic nomination. But Clinton is making it harder for progressives to support her. With a history of hawkish foreign policy and Wall Street backing, she truly is the lesser to two evils. (A neoliberal is better than a fascist, after all.) But many on the left tend to vote with their conscience, and going after single-payer healthcare and hurling dishonest attacks on Sanders will only alienate progressives further.
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/20/hillary_clinton_is_playing_a_dangerous_game_how_her_anti_bernie_talking_points_could_cost_her_and_america_big_time/
peacebird
(14,195 posts)I mean, seriously?
I love her smugness, it will be her downfall.
antigop
(12,778 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)her.
Lovely that she's the frontrunner. Hope it changes in the next few months.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Not even a little bit.
She should show her true colors and go full tilt hard right. That's how she would govern.
mythology
(9,527 posts)In the Senate it was 93 percent the same as Sanders.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)It helped to create ISIS and destroy the lives of millions of Iraqi's.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Bernie and O'Malley are still playing primary. Hillary has advanced to running the general. It's a smart move on her part. Why keep talking to primary voters when you can discuss things that win the general.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Seems to me she is making a grave error.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I know 2008. But this is not 2008. I don't see this bring a change election like 2008. Things are not that bad. If they were that bad then the Democratic Party would have zero chance at the win since we had the presidency during these 8 years and all that goes with it.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)if she wants to run as a Republican, join the Republican party.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Maybe it's politically smart, I'm not a strategist (though the etch-a-sketch strategy didn't work out too well for Romney). It is what it is, but hardly the kind of thing that inspires confidence in the party beyond beating down a GOP that seems to be trying to implode.
Also, a political leader of Hillary Clinton's high profile and power blatantly lying about universal healthcare is just flat out bad for the nation.
frylock
(34,825 posts)any great coach will tell you that.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"I'm a democrat because I don't want people to think I'm a Republican" basically. Centrists and center-right people who see liberalism as good for themselves, maybe, but not for the the unwashed, undeserving masses. The so-called "limousine liberlas" who see their politics as a fashion accessory because they'll be fine no matter who's in office.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)NEVER..
PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE supporters
meet hammer.
Why is it so difficult for some people to SEE this?!?
Plus, I am so disgusted with the mean-spirited, condescending posts denigrating those of us who support Bernie, asserting that "he's not a Democrat!" Really?!?
That the Democratic Party du jour is far different from the Party of my youth is inarguable. That the corporate megalomaniacs have usurped our government is inarguable. That the corporate megalomaniacs view endless war as a path to endless profits is inarguable.
That the vast Hoi Polloi will continue to suffer -- and suffer MORE -- if the corporate megalomaniacs are not stopped is inarguable.
This is why I support Bernie Sanders.
"Help us Obi-Wan Bernie; you're our only hope!"
antigop
(12,778 posts)It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
― Upton Sinclair, I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked
Hillary supporters:
1) Benefit from the status quo
2) Haven't been harmed by it (yet)
DUbeornot2be
(367 posts)... to say those points are inarguable. The problem is they aren't ignorable!
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)That I have to lockstep with DNC and bow to one or the other queens of said DNC then I guess I am not much of democrat either.. The posters on here that can do no better to explain what is so great about their candidate as opposed to someone Else's candidate than to call names and silly innuendos as to the intelligence of any opposition are just proving that their candidate is in fact inferior and has nothing going for he/she at all...
A favorite tactic of lesser intelligence is to attempt to bring any opposition down to their level....
PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)I do not trust Clinton to do anything that makes my life, or the lives of other Americans better.
In addition, I honestly do not believe she can win the general election because she is such a terrible campaigner. Also, her leadership came into question for me when her campaign imploded in 08. It's been worse this time around because she has 'retooled' herself so many times based on polls and focus groups. This is sickening to me. How can I possibly know what she actually stands for?
So, yes, I'm pretty tired of, and angry with the Democratic party, particularly the DNC and the Third Way people.
Because the Third Way and establishment Republican neoliberalism has betrayed our people, busted unions, made a huge number of Americans economically insecure, given us shitty, rationed healthcare, forever war and now a trade agreement (TPP) that will cost what good jobs are left in this country, and allow corporations to undermine what democracy is left.
My life is NOT better because of the Third Way. I pay a lot of taxes and right now I feel like I get shit for my money. For once, just once, I want my tax money to go to programs like single payer healthcare that actually make my life better.
That is why I'm for Bernie and so against Clinton. They don't even seem to be in the same party. Oh, I know he's independent running as a Democrat, so don't bring up that tired meme. Bernie is more a Democrat than the Democrats. That's why so many of us are behind him. We know this is what our party SHOULD be.
It's funny to me how the establishment seems so blind to the profound anger of everyday Americans. I think if things go as they are 'supposed' to and Clinton becomes president, we will have more of the same. Americans will continue to be squeezed and more will fall from their precarious perch in the once-great middle class. We will continue to watch each other lose ground while CEOs make huge salaries, corporate profits stay high and Wall Street booms. And we will turn out our empty pocketbooks and lament that we can no longer afford things we need.
In the meantime, as conditions worsen in America and the rest of the industrialized world because of the neoliberal cancer, the people grow more angry. Capitalism is blind, so it is no real surprise the oligarchs and their minions in Washington don't see how very tired of their bullshit people actually are. This nation is maybe 10 years from a real revolution, but they could buy another hundred years of profits by just throwing us a few bones - single payer healthcare, stronger social security, affordable college.
But no, that is not their nature. Squeezing out the uttermost penny of profits is.
So the oligarchs had better hope Bernie gets it because he might make life in this country incrementally better and hold off the revolution for a time. Hillary won't do a damned thing to slow the inevitable.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)who are generally intelligent and reasonable people (although low-info) and who dislike all the Republicans in the race, really hate hate hate Hillary Clinton. Even women who seem very similar to Clinton who I would expect to like her. I don't actually understand it, it's on a very emotional and not logical level, but it's a very real thing.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)Oh, no, she can't. She's been blocked by the Hillaries...they stalked her from group to forum, and then started stalking me....
PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)A number of us have been banned from a group that shall remain nameless...but you know what? Don't forget this is just a forum. If people here give you too much shit, you can go to Discussionist, Jackpine Radical, Daily Kos or a number of other sites. Too many people take what other people say on these sites too personally, and I've been just as guilty. When DWS slithered out on Friday going to press with something that she SHOULD have quietly handled, I got more hotheaded that I've ever been on here. Most of the time though, it's just honing my own positions through arguing them out with others. And of course, I've been corrected a few times...
But I think the bans from some groups are amusing, because you can't be thin skinned on the web. This site is REALLY genteel and polite. I've posted on sites where people have said stuff like, 'you should just die because you're so brainless!' Nobody here does that.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)with 100% is that only Bernie has a plan to fix the ROOT CAUSE of most of these problems, Publicly Funded Elections! The bad trade deals, Wall Street immunity, perpetual war, Climate Change, poor public education, high drug prices... Are all caused or exacerbated by the legalized bribery of our politicians.
Hillary is the poster child for this! She is the antithesis of Bernie. I do not believe most of what she is saying. Oh, she will push for some gun control legislation requiring stricter background checks, and maybe a few other things (bones) she will throw our way, but nothing her corporate masters will object to.
Bernie would use the Bully Pulpit to direct us to apply the pressure needed to pass much of what we want. Hopefully he would inspire other like-minded individuals to follow in his footsteps!
PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)Duval
(4,280 posts)And I agree, because the Democrats have moved to more of a center-right (DLC, etc.).
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)that pretty darn evident.
Hillary says that we can't afford Bernie's plans for a better America but we can afford regime change in the ME.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)She is moving to the right because that is what her overlords expect for their money.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)You can darn sure bet - Hillary will FIX the flaws she sees in the TPP and crow about how great it will be as soon as she signs it into law.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)Every time I've watched it, I dislike the capitalist overlords more.
PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)DICK that's being jammed up your ass every day...the American Dream, because you've gotta be asleep to believe it...
Still chuckling - I had forgotten that part, though I've listened to this particular Carlin piece many times.
Sadly, this truth from Carlin is so horrifying that if you don't laugh you will cry.
Why I'm for Bernie.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)hedda_foil
(16,374 posts)Because it's starting to feel that way.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)I'd get alerted on or whatever else happens here. But I have posted the definition and few times... No comments on it, but it's not cheery info. In fact, it's downright depressing.
Anyway, appreciate your thougts.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)Hillary does not deserve the nomination.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
glinda
(14,807 posts)may only serve to convince them of impressions they already have. This is not doing the Country much good nor our Planetary Climate crisis.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)~ Hillary Clinton
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)Thanks for the thread, KoKo.
Jackilope
(819 posts)The 1% is only for the 1%. This is not at all about the good of the Democratic Party. With either GOP or HRC, they win. Mission accomplished.
That is what befuddles me so about the ardent support here by the HRC supporters. How many here are in that 1%? I read some of them gleefully awaiting Bernie to concede so they can watch his supporters cry. It is much like the Republicans waiting Obama to fail, never mind the fallout following. So many don't seem to care that HRC is corporate or a hawk ... and aren't thinking long range and long term about the fallout and consequences. It appears, to me, that they are more interested in personally hurting Sanders supporters than bettering conditions here in the US. No doubt, when the young voters or Independents are resigned to more of the same ol' and won't bother voting in the polls .... Sanders supporters would be blamed for that as well.
The Democratic Party is being seriously fractured by the likes of Rahm, DWS, and yes, HRC and centerism and corporatism. It is a tragedy to witness.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)powerful enough.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Progressives have done this from time to time and the DEMOCRATIC PARTY DOESNT CARE AND DOESN'T LISTEN. The party leaders keep on interpreting every loss as "we need to go farther to the right" rather than "we need to please the left." The party leaders themselves see pleasing the 1% as a higher priority than pleasing progressives.
I will say this, if progressives want to win, they need to learn how to appeal to all types of Americans and learn how to present progressivism to them, so that eventually, progressives can infiltrate the party and kick out all the centrists and people who should've stayed in the Republican Party in the first place.
Duval
(4,280 posts)we have a clothes pin on our noses. She will be far better than any Republican. And, I believe your idea of progressives infiltrating the party is excellent!
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)I think the Republican party is in such a shambles that it would take some real effort and scandal for Clinton to lose the general. I'm more concerned with the damage her dishonesty does to the chances of getting Democrats elected in every level below POTUS, and how she is telling outright lies to torpedo ideas of universal healthcare and progressive taxation. Lesser of two evils might work fine when the Republican front runner starts talking like Hitler, but how long until the Republicans get their act together on that front? What happens in other non-presidential elections when there's no big bad boogeyman to contrast against and no one finds the face of your party trustworthy?
Response to KoKo (Original post)
emulatorloo This message was self-deleted by its author.
emulatorloo
(44,124 posts)Mom then basically claimed Sanders wanted to turn the US into a socialist state.
Soon after he insinuated Bernie was too old, and has a "Cold War" mentality.
I get that he is pretty irrelevant at this point, but as far as I am concerned he out-Christie'd Christie. Pissed me off.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)At a time when the GOP is actually pushing some populist ideas I'm not sure running on a 90's style platform is a winning idea.
The GOP pushes some anti free trade and populist ideas, and then Hillary pushes some trickle down and Reagan themed ideas at the same time she's pushing gun control I fail to see how this brings in any right leaning dems or independents. The gun control will cancel out her conservative trend in the mind of the voters she's hoping to appeal to.
jalan48
(13,865 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)that defended Bill and Hillary back in the 1990s.
I know how dishonest attacks on Bernie have affected me. I know, Hillary supporters are not interested in how dishonest attacks on Bernie have affected me because to them Hillary always tells the truth about Bernie.
Guess what. You couldn't be more wrong.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Now we see what we didn't then, so busy defending Bill & Hillary against RW/Limbaugh, Starr Commission and the "Bimbo Eruption" (as it was called way back then) culminating in the revelations of the room off the Oval Office with the Cigar Sex Revelations. So much Drama and Theater with the Clintons. Some of us don't want to see "PART 3."
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)As far as I'm concerned they can have all the "illicit" relationships they want, lol.
I suspect Theater is a key word.
When I think back on it I feel like such a dummie.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)From what was going on with their Deregulation of whatever they could get their hands on championed by the New Dem Movement they helped found!
So its not the SEX itself and the Distraction but that the Sex Deflected from what we Dem should have been Aware of that was going on Behind the Scenes of the Clinton Drama.
I feel it was all tied together...and that's what has hurt our Party going forward. And, it isn't going to end once they are back together in the White House.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I think it was tied together. And frankly, I think it continues to this day. Maybe I shouldn't admit that.
as that Bush Official ...Ari Fleisher, I think, said:"Watch What You Say" ...after 9/11. We all have to be so careful these days. "Tied Together."
Locrian
(4,522 posts)And that is the "theater" that the powers that be allow: the D vs R. Both controlled but played against each other as theater. The GOP has to be the bat shit rodeo clown, always pushing it to the far right. So the democrats are judged in that frame as a sane part vs the crazies.
Bernie is showing that the spectrum is skewed. That BOTH parties have moved WAY to the right. And the owners of the theater do not like that
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)I guess it took a real liberal with deep conviction and caring for the American people to open my eyes. Hillary Clinton has not earned my vote and likely never will. She has zero credibility on anything in my view.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I wish I could love Hillary. I wish she were deserving of my admiration.
wolfie001
(2,231 posts)....simple math has lead me to this decision. If Walmart hates Unions and Hillary sat on the Walmart Board of Directors(for six long years), then,
1 + 1 = Bernie!!!! There you go, simple math. Have a nice day.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... to support social security expansion and medicare funding by the wealthy. By saying she's considering that those making between $118k and $250k now are "middle class" and people she doesn't want to raise taxes on (no matter how little it will affect that group anyway), it is an excuse not to raise taxes on those making over $250k that SHOULD be paying more to ensure that death and disabled benefits that are a third of payouts by social security aren't paid out MORE percentage-wise collectively in our society by those making less than $118k (the current cap).
Nyan
(1,192 posts)Where did that come from?
Bernie's leading in NH and inching close in IW.
Why do these people keep saying things like that. It's misleading.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and fool the voters in her "inevitability."
they know what direction this is going, which is why dnc is in total meltdown mode.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... Hillary said it.
Very dishonest.
roaminronin
(49 posts)between scaring off regular voters and scaring off large pocket donors. Mrs. Clinton would love for you to forget that the first Clinton administration continued the erosion of the social safety net that the Republican administrations started. #notbuyingthebenevolentgrandma
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Once She is Elected...is something we need to be thinking about.