I think Sanders supporters focus too much on defeating Hillary Clinton

[SecularMotion]

and not enough on electing Bernie Sanders.

[JaneyVee]

1. Yup. And so it is.

[Plucketeer]

36. Well!

Since you concur, it certainly must be!

[Bubzer]

53. It's laughable.

They're calling for a unified front now that Bernie's campaign is demanding an independent investigation into the network breach caused by the DNC's willful neglect, and blatant bias. A demand mirrored by Bernie supporters. No, there will be no unified front... not until full disclosure has been had.

The HNC's on notice... their time is running out.

[cantbeserious]

2. Some Think HRC Supporters Focus Too Much On Defending HRC And Not Enough On Making America Better

eom

[daleanime]

6. Amen....

[Plucketeer]

44. I think more than anyone would confess

it's about a gender change in the Oval Office. That would be a great thing to have happen, but by itself, it shouldn't be THE primary aim. Too much is at stake. We've been fooled once already as to the worth of cosmetic change. We need to be smarter than that this time around.

[cantbeserious]

50. ^^^ This ^^^

Very well stated.

[artislife]

45. +100000

[PatrynXX]

56. Yep...

as in how is Wall Street? Warren Wing went more for Bernie.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. That's a bern!

[Scuba]

3. They're basically the same thing - fighting to have a government that represents ALL of us.

[SunSeeker]

4. K & R

[Thinkingabout]

5. K & R

[onecaliberal]

7. Reall? Pot, meet kettle.

[elana i am]

8. oh you need to think MUCH bigger. not just clinton but what she represents...

the oligarchy. clinton is the DINO face of a much uglier much more systemic problem. and electing bernie sanders is a much bigger issue than just getting a guy named sanders into the white house.

this ain't even sanders vs clinton, this is government by the people for the people vs government by a corporatocracy/military industrial complex. 1% vs. 99%.

life sucks for a lot of us. trivializing it is not a convincing argument.

[jalan48]

35. I second this. There are real, important differences between the two.

A distinct choice as to which direction we want our country to go in.

[Plucketeer]

40. Yes - there are REAL and SUBSTANTIVE differences

ONE will do Wall Street's / Corporate America's bidding. The other will stand up to them and define the separation of their influences in government. Let's let the readers of this post decide who is who with respect to my definitions.

[JoePhilly]

9. Its as if they don't understand the math ...

... for Bernie to win, he'd have to convert lots and lots of Democrats who admire Hillary, and who would vote for her happily. I'm not talking about "Hillbots" or "shills", I'm talking about every day run of the mill Democrats.

Those average Democrats have watched the RW, the GOP , and the media at large vilify her for close to 30 years now. And she's still standing strong.

Now we have some folks on the left (or claiming to be from the left) vilifying her in the exact same manner. Apparently they think those average Dems, who are sick of seeing Hillary attacked unfairly, will suddenly dump her, and rush to Bernie. Its not working.

And not only do they attack Hillary non-stop, they also attack those average Dems who admire her and who would happily vote for her. They run around demanding that those average Dems JUSTIFY their admiration for her. They wag their fingers at those average Dems. They say they are not "real Dems". They threaten to not vote for her if she were to win the nomination.

This is the brilliant political strategy Bernie supporters came up with. Vilify Hillary, and vilify those who would happily vote for her in the General Election.

And then they wonder why their preferred candidates don't win in the primaries. They think its a conspiracy.

They don't have the introspective capability to recognize the errors they make. And if you point out one of their errors, it is YOU who have done wrong. Just take a look at the recent data breach episode. A Bernie staffer steals Hillary's data, and they blame Hillary.

These are not the most politically astute folks we're dealing with here.

[reformist2]

12. Actually, Bernie is within striking distance, so I say we stay the course regarding strategy.

[JoePhilly]

68. Not if you look at the state polls.

But hey ... its your call ... vilify Hillary, vilify folks who admire her and who would happily vote for her.

I'm sure they'll run to your warm embrace.

In all honestly, I give your strategy the same chance of winning that I gave the many calls on DU for a primary against Obama in 2012. Zero.

[rogerashton]

15. Joe, you make a good case

and no doubt there is a segment of Bernie's supporters here on DU who are, in the first instance, anti-Hillary, and support Bernie mainly to oppose her. And some others who go overboard in the heat of the conflict. (That's no less true on Hillary's side, by the way.)

But here is the thing: the math. As you say, but think a little further. As Hillary's supporters like to point out often, Bernie is behind. He doesn't win without defeating Hillary.

By contrast, Hillary doesn't have to defeat Bernie. She only has to prevent him from defeating her. So I think you have it backward. Hillary's supporters are too focused on defeating Bernie.

(I don't think either of the candidates is confused on this. The Hillary I saw on the tube last night was focused on defeating on Republicans, and Bernie was focusing on his differences from her. Neither of the candidates is stupid. Unlike a few of their supporters.)

[JoePhilly]

20. I disagree on the focus.

I'm a Hillary supporter. And I'd happily vote for Bernie, or MOM in the general election, if they won the primary, and I'd donate and encourage others to do so as well.

Why? Because like 99% of the Hilary supports here, we do not under any circumstances want to see a GOP President. We'd all vote for the eventual nominee because defeating the GOP is THE PRIMARY GOAL. Period.

I do agree with you that Bernie and Hilary "get it" and that some supporters in both camps do not. Because Hilary's got the larger lead, her campaign is not hurt as much, proportionally, when her supporters act up.

Again, its the math. Bernie needs more of the "Hillary leaning Dems" to switch to him, than Hillary needs "Bernie leaning Dems" to switch to her to win the primary. Folks on DU noticed that during the last debate (all of them really), Hillary turns the focus to the differences between Dems and the GOP because most Dems, as an objective of the first order, do not want a Republican in the White House.

Bernie needs to do what Obama did. Obama convinced people that he could win the general AND get things done once in office. And he had to do that before people started to look at how much he differed from Clinton.

That has not happened, at least not yet. And the "tone" currently is not helping Bernie.

[aikoaiko]

34. Winning the GE and getting things done was not an Obama primary message

He won by providing a message and vision to the left of HRC and criticizing her record and vision.

[JoePhilly]

69. Obama and Hillary had almost the exact same message.

Their policy positions were almost exactly the same.

Obama took positions slightly to Clinton's left ... not far to her left, slightly to her left. Go back and rewatch those debates. He discussed specific policy details and how he'd structure things.

He became a formidable opponent for the GOP, enough so that even they began to run against him as well as Hillary. And once he showed he could stand up and fight back effectively, and remain calm and poised while doing so, things continued to turn his way.

And realize, he still BARELY beat Hillary. She made the mistake of overlooking the caucus states. A mistake she won't repeat.

[treestar]

19. Good post

Excellent summation. It defies logic to think anyone will switch from Hillary to Bernie based on these wild accusations.

And I think they are unrealistic about the average Democrat's, or average American's, alleged burning hatred for Wall Street and the Corporations.

[Indydem]

64. Exactly.

People like iPhones, flat panel tvs, and 401k's.

Most of America is not the DU. There is a lot of misplaced anger and bitterness here that doesn't show up in the other 99.999% of America.

[uponit7771]

52. Some are living in a bubble... one that looks too much like a Faux news bubbl

[pennylane100]

10. That certainly my be the case,

but if he does beat Clinton, he is practically a shoe in to take the nomination, sorry O'Malley supporters, I like him but he is very far behind.

[cali]

11. How on earth.are you gauging that? Ooh, you feel it, right?

Because you certainly don't explain what you base your dubious claim on.

[99Forever]

13. I think Sanders supporters...

... care fuckall about advice on how to conduct his campaign from his opponents.

But that's just me.

[Snotcicles]

25. They have gall to the wall. That's for sure. nt

[Betty Karlson]

14. You may have a point.

But to be fair: DWS is focussing to much on defeating Bernie Sanders, and not enough on facilitating a good and emocratic primary process.

[Ferd Berfel]

16. Firsts things First. At this point in time - Hillary is the problem that needs to be defeated

Gee I wonder if Hillary and the DNC camp are spending too much time on defeating Sanders.

[AgingAmerican]

17. Projection

You just described Hillary supporters too a tee. Difference being Hillary supporters seem hellbent on bullying and insulting Sanders supporters out of the party, with zero effort touting their candidate.

[artislife]

47. And that is the only victory they will have. nt

[Thor_MN]

18. Given that trolling exists:

I choose to believe that some of the most negative stuff comes from outside. My blood pressure has gone down by ignoring the people engaged in the most irrational dialog. After primaries settle things out, they will come off my ignore list, but I suspect that a significant portion of them will disappear, until 2019.

[Andy823]

23. I agree.

I only had one trouble maker on ignore, and it was so much more pleasant not having to read their constant BS posts. They are gone now so I no longer have anyone on ignore, though there are still some that might end up there before the primaries are over.

[Andy823]

21. Not the real supporters

The only ones I see doing the trashing and bashing, are pretty much the same group that bashed Obama all the time. They have dominated the Bernie group, and their only goal is trash and bash. The bad thing is we keep getting right wing trolls that join that group in their hate fest, and we also get the right wing trolls who "claim" to be Clinton supporters who help keep the war going. They are not hard to spot. Most are hit and run posters who never discuss. The main thing they all have in common is trying to divide DU and keep the fighting going.

[Rebkeh]

22. I partially agree

Hating her doesn't help Bernie at all, it actually helps her in an indirect way, but constructive criticism is necessary in order to illustrate the contrast.

There's a difference between bashing her and highlighting why she's such a terrible choice. I agree some Bernie supporters don't seem to understand the difference though.

[KittyWampus]

24. Very accurate observation. I'm an O'Malley supporter who sees his campaign

as not making enough inroads. At least not yet.

That leaves Hillary as the only viable candidate.

So what is the point of the endless crap Sanders supporters post?

Why keep inverting the truth when his crappy campaign screws up yet again?

I think the answer is DU is infested with ideologues. They can't stand dissent.

They are actually the most authoritarian members of this board.

[Andy823]

38. I agree

Most of the "real" trouble makers also were the ones last year who started in with the "anyone but Hillary" meme. They got their own group here which was pretty much dedicated to finding someone, anyone, besides Hillary. They are also the same group that constantly trashed and bashed president Obama on a daily basis. There number has grown and they have decided to make the "claim" they are for Sanders. Funny thing is though that the crap they post turns people off, not encourages them to switch to Bernie.

I am not a Hillary supporter, I too support O'Malley, but trying to discredit any of the 3 candidates we have in this manner, trashing and bashing, is only doing the work of the republicans, and I am sure that some of these fake Bernie supporters may actually be republicans. I have found it amazing that we continue to get new posters daily, and the vast majority of them all start out with negative post about Clinton.

[artislife]

49. We could very well ask why we have O'Malley posts

or Hillary posts...because the primaries haven't even started. We like to wait until people, the individual voters, actually vote.


I suspect you do as well. O'Malley isn't out, not if we look at past numbers at this stage of the election cycle.

[Scootaloo]

26. And I think cheesecake is delicious.

For what it's worth? Sanders supporters aren't describing Hillary as a segregationist. As a rapist. As a protector of pedophiles. As a disloyal, greedy, lying Jew. As a Republican with her head between women's legs. As a gun nut. Sanders supporters have never linked Stormfront or Gateway Pundit to attack Clinton. We've never asserted she's responsible for slavery in Virginia and the actions of the chicago PD. we have not run around in circles declaring her supporters to be psychopaths and white supremacists.

These are staples of "Clinton support" on DU, however. So maybe think a little more deeply.

[KittyWampus]

33. Nah, the Bernie supporters here just blame her for Trump and you are blithely ignoring

so very much more. Like blaming Clinton every time the Sanders campaign screws up yet again.

And the fact Sanders supporters are over 85% of who is posting here supports my version of DU's reality.

The reality is Sanders supporters have such a large majority, so little self-control, game a flawed jury system and get away with so much right now they just keep going further and further over the line.

And to top that all off- Sanders supporters here consistently play the victim.

[artislife]

51. Why don't you model good behavior and tell us about Martin?

I love it when people throw sh*t to talk about sh*t throwing.

[Scootaloo]

65. Really, this is what you're going with?

"Sure, Clinton supporters call Sanders a rapist, a pedophile protector, a segregationist, a gun nut, accuse him of being a disloyal greedy lying Jew, and use white supremacist hate sites to attack him while calling his supporters psychopaths and white supremacists, but Sanders supporters are worse because they are! So NYUUUUUH!"

[emulatorloo]

27. Don't confuse DU candidate supporters with the real world ones.

That being said, there are 5 or 6 obnoxious posters on both sides. I don't judge the whole of DU based on the antics of a handful.

[Andy823]

43. I don't judge by the actions of supporters either

However the idea their is a "handful" of obnoxious posters on both sides is dead wrong. I support O'Malley, but I don't trash any of the other two candidates. There has been a group here on DU that started out trashing and bashing president Obama, then the party as a whole, and then last year started the "anyone but Hillary meme", and now have taken their dislike, or hate in some cases, to a higher level. Their numbers have grown, and their posts have become filled with nothing but hate. Now I do believe there are right wing trolls here working both sides, trying to keep the fighting going here on DU. New posters come on daily, and the vast majority of the new posters start out "bashing Hillary". Not Bernie, and Not O'Malley, but Hillary. Sounds like a right wing thing to me.

[emulatorloo]

58. I have no problem with the idea that there are right-wing operatives here stirring the pot.

For example Ex member Better Believe It got caught after years of right wing trolling while pretending to be a progressive.

Were you around in 2004 for 'The Great Reveal?' On election night, there were several who came out and admitted they were here to divide Dems and cost Kerry the election.

[whereisjustice]

29. I think Clinton supporters are shoving a toxic conservative with a history of horrible judgement

down our throats.

[randome]

39. You just proved the OP's point. Congratulations.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[whereisjustice]

42. Clinton's right wing nuttery is proving that she is unworthy of the nomination, not me

[randome]

48. And you just proved it again.

Do you believe in numbers? The numbers show that Clinton will be our nominee. You can pretend otherwise all you wish but it's disconcerting to see someone on a Progressive discussion board who is willing to ignore reality.

I will happily vote for Sanders if he's the nominee. In fact, from the start, I said I would prefer Sanders to Clinton, but I can tell the difference between wish-fulfillment and reality.

Not everyone on this board thinks alike. But in general, those of us who look dispassionately and directly at the facts have been right about several things:
OWS (all but disappeared)
Snowden (never coming home)
Assange (never getting away)
And now Clinton.

More numbers for you to chew on.

There are a hell of a lot more rabid Sanders supporters than rabid Clinton supporters on DU. Most of us simply recognize what's in front of our noses.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[TIME TO PANIC]

30. I think Clinton supporters focus too much time on Sanders supporters,

and not enough on their own candidates neoliberal center-right positions.

[Phlem]

62. Yep.

[Agschmid]

31. Yup.

[randr]

32. Bernies real strength

and Hillary's, will be an out and out attack on the far right. The scirmish with the Hillary camp is a distraction.
This also holds true for all Democrats; the opposition is the frightwing and we need to label them as unacceptable to hold the highest office in the world.
Any Democrat is better than all the Republicans put together.

[PowerToThePeople]

37. I have donated more to Bernie than any other candidate in my life

I also post more about Bernie on social media sites than I have ever posted about any politician in my life.

As it gets closer to my state caucus, I will be hitting the streets for him as well.

[aikoaiko]

41. Most HRC supporters probably agree with you.

Which is encouraging.

[jwirr]

46. This is the primary. That is what it is for - to elect the best

candidate for the general. And you have a lot of nerve talking about us after what the DNC and Hillary pulled with the false "stolen data" bull. At least we use issues to fight not dirty rovian politics.

[stupidicus]

54. I think hollow, unsupported declarations are a measure of one thing only

the diff between a defensible opinion and a worthless one

[Fearless]

55. Complete bull.

[whereisjustice]

57. Clinton moves the Democratic Party even more to the Republican side. Why wouldn't a real Democrat

want to defeat her?

[Armstead]

59. Here's some stones. Here's a glass house. Have fun.

[Jack Rabbit]

60. I think Sanders supporters focus too much on 2016 and not enough on what happens after that

There are two plausible outcomes of the 2016 presidential election:

• Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic nomination and goes on to wallop the last Republican clown standing; or
• Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination and goes on to wallop the last Republican clown standing.

In the first, even if the Democrats retake control of both houses of Congress, President Sanders will face a working majority in both houses of Republicans and corporate Democrats that will uniformly oppose the most important parts of his agenda: reinstating Glass-Steagall, breaking up too-big-to-fail banks, making industry clean up after its own pollution, expanding medicare and taxing the rich in order to provide tuition free public college education for all. The movement created by Bernie's successful presidential campaign will not simply disband after the election, but still exert pressure on politicians to break with the corrupting, corroding influence of crooked bankers and industrial polluters who have profited from fostering the toxic waste of political sleaze that is prevalent today and do the right thing. It will be the task of this movement to neutralize the presence of tainted corporate money in politics with a potent threat of making any candidate for any office at any level of government tainted by accepting money from such sources.

In the second, the vile establishment has won and it's politics as usual. President Hillary Clinton pursues an agenda friendly to big, out-of-control Wall Street Banks and half measures to remedy climate change that does something as long as it doesn't hurt ExxonMobil or Shell. President Clinton implements more policies based on voodoo economics that have failed since 1981. There will be more income inequality, more global warming and perhaps more imperialist, unwinnable wars in the Middle East. However, if the veterans of the Sanders campaign hold together and take to the streets in order, to paraphrase Mario Savio, to put our bodies on the odious machine to prevent it from working, then there will be hope for a humanist future rather than a corporatist world in which only profits of corporations and the benefit to the elite who own and control them are of any central importance.

Either way. there will be a role for the movement intended to grow from the Sanders, coalescing with Black Lives Matter and a rejuvenated American left and perhaps even pealing off some support from unexpected quarters such as the libertarian movement. This is not a nice-to-have-it-around movement. This is a necessity. Politics as usual is a destructive force and it must be defeated before it destroys all of us.

That movement, where the people of the world unite for a better world against those forces that would destroy that which makes Earth hospitable to life or make life miserable to toiling masses for the sole benefit of the elite, and not a particular outcome in the next election, is the greatest gift that the Sanders campaign can give to humanity.

[Phlem]

63. This shit again. Hypocrisy much?

[Maedhros]

66. Even if Bernie were not in the race, I would still not want Hillary to be President.[n/t]

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. In a democracy, candidates for publiuc all candidates should be scrutinized and questioned.

Even Hillary.

[MrMickeysMom]

70. Really?

Right THAT motherfucker down... I didn't KNOW that!

Who is Hillary Clinton?

[Chan790]

71. Personally.

That's actually my order of priorities.

1.) No Hillary presidency ever.
2.) I like Bernie, think he'd be a great President. Would also be happy with O'Malley. Would have been happy with Warren if she'd had any interest in running.

[winter is coming]

72. I think Clinton supporters focus too much on Sanders supporters. n/t