Bernie supporters could blow this election

[Cassiopeia]

Last edited Sun Dec 20, 2015, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Bernie supporters could blow this election

Why refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton will only make everything worse

By Gary Legum

The political left has been tearing itself up of late with a rousing game of “Who Wants to Be the Most Liberal Liberal Ever To Liberal,” much in the same way it seems to each and every election cycle. The current battle, between supporters of Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, would be much more entertaining if the arguments for and against both campaigns weren’t variations on the same tired leftier-than-thou rhetoric and blind loyalty that were worn out even before Ralph Nader threw his rumpled corduroy blazer over his shoulder and slunk off into the humid Florida night.

I’ll get to some of those arguments in a minute, but first I’m going to pull on my old-man pants, hike the waist up to my armpits, shake my fist at some clouds, and share a couple of the strongest memories I have of the months leading up to the 2000 election, when I was a 26-year-old, semi-politically-aware liberalish Gen-X voter.

I recall a debate that year about whether true liberals should vote for Nader because, in his formulation, there was not a dime’s worth of difference between the two major-party candidates, Al Gore and George W. Bush. I recall email blasts from at least one acquaintance in a toss-up state trying to interest his friends in states that were safely for Gore in a voting trade of sorts, whereby one of us would cast our vote for Nader; in return, our friend would cast his vote for Gore. The thinking was that this would preserve a Democratic victory in both states while also registering liberal protests at the centrist drift of the party.

I recall spending the night before the election drinking in a P.F. Chang’s in Los Angeles with a group of friends, one of whom had brought along a reporter from the L.A. Daily News who planned on casting her vote the next day for Nader. There had been some vague concern over polls showing the race for California’s 54 electoral votes might be close, but she assured us all that this was not the case. California was safely in Gore’s column, so liberals might as well cast that protest vote.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/02/bernie_supports_could_blow_this_election_why_refusing_to_vote_for_hillary_clinton_will_only_make_things_worse/

[Cassiopeia]

1. We don't need to worry about a third party challenge this cycle

I hope.

Although, Hillary does desperately want it. I guess I could be wrong.

[still_one]

4. I assume you are referring to the Democratic side, because there is a very real possibility that

if the republicans go to a brokered convention, Trump might very well run as a third party, and that would help whichever Democrat is the nominee.

As far as the Democrats are concerned though, none of the Democrats will launch a third party run if they do not win the primary.

All sides with the Democratic candidates are well aware that if one of them launched a third party run, it would split the ticket, and the odds are extremely high that a republican would occupy the white house.

It is for that reason that I respectfully disagree with you point that "Hillary desperately wants it", implying if she didn't get the nomination she might launch a third party run. None of the candidates are that naive, and they know the consequences of that would be a sure republican victory. The vast majority of the Democrats will vote for the Democratic nominee, not a third party candidate who didn't win the Democratic nomination.

[still_one]

2. It's a very insightful article. The fact is that both the Hillary and the Bernie camps are

going to need each other in the general election to pull this off

[jfern]

6. The DNC is taking Bernie supporters for granted

[still_one]

8. I agree

[Jackilope]

56. DNC has flat out antagonized and insulted Sanders supporters.

"Bluster" sneers DWS.

What a horrid piece of work she is.

[Douglas Carpenter]

3. well Hillary supporters need to realize that bullying and abusing liberals and

progressives is not going to help their candidate. They just don't seem to get that - AT ALL. I have just not seen sliminess like this in Democratic circles in a long, long time.

Hillary needs to give the American people who are not "my Party right or wrong" types reasons to support her candidacy. The vast majority of voters don't think that way, you know.

But one thing is certain, if Hillary does lose the general election - the party establishment will blame liberals one way or another - even if they turn out in disproportionately large numbers to vote for her. Then a couple of election cycles down the road it will become the establishment meme that Hillary lost because she was way too liberal and the party had been hijacked by the far left. Mark my word now - this is exactly what they will be claiming and using this as an excuse to push the party farther to the right. I have seen this all before.

[still_one]

5. I agree with your first part, but not your second part. If the vast majority of Hillary and Bernie

supporters turn out and vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is, and if Hillary wins the primary, but loses the general election, the only one to blame for that would be the Hillary campaign, assuming, no SC interference, or blocking people from voting.

However, I will concede one point, if Bernie wins the nomination, but loses the general election, the "party establishment", as you put it, will use liberals as the scape goat unfairly.

[jfern]

7. Liberals will be blamed either way

The establishment really doesn't like liberals

[still_one]

9. nope, we disagree. If the voting turnout is there, they can try to argue against the data, but they

will look like idiots if they do.

The most alarming thing right now is the support the republicans are giving to Trump, and the most extreme republican candidates. I would like to believe that the independent voters will not go for that, but I am not so confident anymore

[Skidmore]

33. Hillary supporters

are liberals and are progressive. You don't get to decide that. We all agree on the vast majority of problems but have differing views on how to get to solutions. Perhaps you should read your own assertion and flip them around to understand how that cuts both ways.

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. there are some Bernie supporters who are over the top

[Hal Bent]

10. Do you always plagiarize from other posters VERBATIM?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110730326

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. the OP is using a quote from an article published in salon.com

If more than one poster uses the same article or the same quote- that is their business. It is not plagiarizing as long as they properly attribute the source which is salon.com - not you.

[Hal Bent]

12. Click my link

S/he even copy-pasted my comment below the article!

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. since this OP is posting an article I don't like and don't agree with I feel funny about

defending them. But for me - when I post something - I want others to pick it up and repost it - and since I'm not being paid for it either way - I could not care less about attribution.

The whole idea - at least for me of posting in the first place is a hope - albeit sometimes a vain hope - that things that I believe in can get across to others. I have been personally flattered when I see things that I was posting get picked up and spread around. Is that not the whole point of Internet politicking?

[Proserpina]

13. You are very new to this game. This is called a Cross-Post

It takes an item from one group and brings it to another group's attention. Not everyone reads everything on this site.

PS: You owe her an apology for being so rude, inadvertent or not.

[Hal Bent]

15. I know enough about croos-posting to know that

it's done by people who themselves posted their thread in another forum as well. CLICK MY LINK above, and you will see that s/he simply lifted my post from the Hillary Group and plopped it into this forum word-for-word!

[Proserpina]

16. I am so sorry for you

[Cassiopeia]

17. Are you ashamed of the posting?

Surely it is good enough for everyone to have a comment.

[MelungeonWoman]

18. Hal is obviously proud of his comment.

Do the right thing and either edit out his comment or give him attribution.

[bvf]

23. Oh, FFS...

"Yes, this is a couple of weeks old. But it's still true!"

- Hal Bent (not a real name)

There. Happy now?

[MelungeonWoman]

34. That actually made me giggle.

But I wasn't unhappy before.

You'd have to ask Hal if that satisfied him.

[bvf]

41. Oops!

Sorry, that was meant for Hal!

:hi

[Cassiopeia]

51. I deleted the comment

The problem isn't that I cross posted this. The problem is that I took it from their protected realm and put it in GDP where everyone can have a say.

This was intended by the original poster as a trash only Bernie posting.

[bvf]

67. Personally, I would have left it as is.

It was downright amusing to see such a childish snit thrown over nothing.

[Agschmid]

71. Yup.

[TheFarS1de]

74. They don't like to share their toys :P

[corkhead]

37. Some of us didn't see it because you posted it in a trashed group.

now we are familiar with your work.

[bowens43]

19. My support of bernie has nothing to do with the fcat that I will not vote for hillary

I refuse to vote for anyone who I believe is not fit to be president. Hillay ii morally and ethically unfit.

If hillary gets the nomination and we lose the presidency the blame will lie entirely with those who thought it was a good idea to put her on the ballot.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

20. Bullshit equating Bernie and Nader.

[Cassiopeia]

50. I agree.

[TekGryphon]

69. The author is not equating Bernie with Nader.

They're equating SOME Bernie supporters with Nader supporters.

I find myself in agreement on two areas:

1. Al Gore and George Bush were WORLDS apart from each other and an Al Gore presidency would have been drastically different than Bush's. Despite that, Nader voters insisted, at the time, that there wasn't an ounce of difference between Al Gore and Bush. Obvious to the vast majority of progressives then, and to everyone now - they were wrong.

2. Nader voters gave him their vote because they convinced themselves that it was better to put a conservative into office than a progressive that wasn't their first choice. They believed this would, ultimately, benefit the country, the Democratic Party, and the progressive movement. Obvious to the vast majority of progressives then, and to everyone now - they were wrong.

If we're all being completely honest with ourselves, we're forced to admit that SOME Bernie supporters are perfect matches to Nader voters on those two areas, and that's a terrible, terrible thing.

It's why I was happy to see Maddy get the boot, and why I hope anyone else who advocates for the sabotaging of the progressive movement out of spite gets the boot too.

[watoos]

21. I heard this on cable news

I don't remember who made the comment, but he/she was talking about how much money it would take for Trump to run as a 3rd party candidate. The number that he/she gave was 50 to 100 million dollars for Trump to run a 3rd party campaign. Now, Trump has that kind of money, Bernie doesn't, Hillary probably does.

[gordyfl]

22. I Remember That Eelection

Gore was comfortably ahead in the polls until just a few days before the election. The night before pollsters were calling it very, very close. So, if Nader supporters voted for Nader, most must have known their vote might have an impact on the outcome.

[stillwaiting]

24. Until we can get progressive Democrats through primaries...

Last edited Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:37 AM - Edit history (1)

... when up against Corporate-controlled and financed Democratic candidates it makes ZERO sense to not vote for the corporate Democrat. Scenario: Enough of us don't vote for the corporate Democrat so a Republican gets elected. The Republicans in FULL CONTROL pass A LOT of horrible legislation and they piss off enough of the electorate that Democrats come back to power. BUT, these are corporate owned Democrats (again) and they do nothing to reverse what the Republicans previously did. They enable their policies and they become the new status-quo. It's a vicious merry-go-round cycle straight to hell for the average American. We have to break this cycle at the primary level successfully nationwide (or at least in enough areas of the nation to get a progressive Congress), and THEN we can afford to let corrupted corporate Democrats lose to Republicans. We have some work to do on that front.

What we have seen happen time and time again is that corporate Democrats do NOT work to overturn the vast majority of the policies that these far-right Republicans enact. They enable them and make them status-quo. So, if we are all ready for another HUGE leg down, let's just not vote for the corporate Democrat.

Now, that does not mean that I am not SICK AND DAMN TIRED of doing so, but I WILL keep on doing it while I continue to try and get people to realize we have to mobilize a long-term movement that effectively BEATS the monied interests favored corporate-approved candidates in the primaries. I know that's asking a lot, but I refuse to believe it's not possible to do so. It's the ONLY chance we have of ever turning our country back around to work for the interests of average Americans (even if it comes at the slight expense of the wealthy and multinational corporations).

It's the ONLY chance we've got. In the meantime, harm reduction has value.

It truly is a shitty deal we've been given over the past 3 to 4 decades though. And, anyone who does not recognize that or does not sympathize with that is not my political ally. At all.

[Doctor_J]

25. yep, still bullshit. my advice to Clinton supporters would be to stop threatening liberals

and start listening to them.

[Cassiopeia]

62. Bullies gotta bully.

It's all they have at the end of the day.

[liberal N proud]

26. You can't reason with them

Start thinking about a disaster President Tump will be.

[pengu]

27. Clinton supporters are blowing it by voting for her

[eridani]

28. Not all Sanders supporters are Democrats

Dems will mostly do the strategic thing and vote for the nominee. Much of Sanders's support is from previously alienated people who don't think highly of political parties. I suspect that a lot of them will go right back to being alienated.

At the Seattle activist Town Hall last week, 2/3 of the several hundred attendees raised their hands when the moderator asked who had never been involved in a campaign before.

[Livluvgrow]

35. Wrong

Everybody I know who supports Bernie are life long dems. Unless teachers and nurses are no longer allowed under your tent. ASecond thought the way Hillary the DNC and Hillary supporters are going their won't be anybody under the tent.

[elias7]

38. Wrong

Wow, it feels so empowering to say that. And so paternalistic, and so...wrong.

Maybe everyone you know supporting Bernie is a lifelong dem and maybe it feels good to make snarky comments about people's tents.

Fact is, Bernie has support that does cross party lines... Libertarians, independents, and even some republicans ... at least in my experiences these last few months.

Of course you can tell me I'm wrong, too, if you like.

[Cassiopeia]

63. How exactly is that a bad thing?

A president that could unite the people against our REAL problems.....

[eridani]

73. You know that because you attend Sanders groups in addition to local Dem groups?

I do, and in the Puget Sound area, most people who initiate these social media-based groups are newbies in all senses. The founder of the South Seattle Group is 26 and has never voted before. She was a few weeks too young in 2008, and was never motivated to vote since then.

[Vinca]

29. This is interesting. A pre-election covering of ass.

Blame the Bernie supporters for the loss by a candidate who doesn't generate any excitement. Sorry. I don't buy it. If Hillary loses - and I think there's a very good chance she can't win the general - it's because she hasn't inspired the voters who always stay home during the midterm elections. It will have nothing to do with Bernie supporters, the majority of whom will vote for the Democratic candidate even if it isn't the one they supported.

[MisterP]

66. it's SOP now--they did it for '10 and for '14: first time it was "them gays aren't voting for us

so it's their fault," then for last year it was the youth vote

[delrem]

30. If Hillary Clinton has such antipathy for "leftists" and "liberals"

and "progressives", perhaps she should have run as a Republican. Then she'd not have such an awful problem that her supporters have to continuously red-bait and castigate "the left" as traitors to her holy right-wing cause.

[Broward]

31. Great point, nt.

[madfloridian]

40. .....

[Renew Deal]

32. This is what the republicans were hoping for.

[madfloridian]

39. That works both ways, you know.

[Cassiopeia]

58. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Clinton

run third party when Bernie takes the Primary.

She wants it that badly.

[Tanuki]

80. Really? That's not what she did in 2008. She went all in for her former opponent

and campaigned vigorously for President Obama's victory.

[Cassiopeia]

81. She still saw a future in her career.

When she loses this primary she has 2 options. She can run 3rd party or end her political ambitions for good.

[Autumn]

42. Okay

[Cassiopeia]

52. yep

It's a cross posting from the Clinton group. I felt it needed to see the light of day.

[Autumn]

54. If Hillaty loses just like she did the last time, that's on her. No one else.

[Cassiopeia]

57. Exactly.

Just like Gore was on Gore.

Nader had fuck all to do with it. The Dems chose a weak GE candidate and lost the bet. Clinton is the exact same kind of candidate. Weak on trust, weak on motivation.

[Autumn]

60. Hill and Deb can try some personal responsibility.

[coyote]

43. Hillary has no one to blame but herself...

If she cannot attract the base in her own party, then she has a problem.

[LWolf]

44. The zombie rises yet again,

because it offers up such a rich source for bullying and blaming when Democrats can't field a candidate that earns the support of their own left wing.

The zombie gets a bit moldier and stinkier with every GE. I think we need this:

[CrispyQ]

45. A more accurate post title would be, "Democratic Leadership has Blown this Election."

Since Reagan, democratic leadership has been backing away from the liberal label & in so doing, they backed away from their base & liberal policies, as well. They have stratified themselves on economic issues & joined the repubs in dividing the rest of us on social issues, & here we are, both parties, playing their base. The repubs throw out "Roe vs. Wade" to their base & the dems throw out the "SCOUTS" boogemen to theirs, & we all continue to vote for the LOTE (lesser of two evils) candidates, while they pillage the Treasury & profitize the Commons.

The only way we will get our democracy back is if we get money out of politics. Good luck with that, since the ones who can change the status quo are the ones who benefit from it.

FUCK YOU FUCKERS





JUMP YOU FUCKERS



DO YOUR JOB, YOU FUCKERS

[CharlotteVale]

46. +100000

[MisterP]

47. you mean the third-party candidate that didn't cost Gore FL? the one where Jeb and Harris had to

cheat?

of course people ignore what Gore himself said about the stolen election and that suits the party honchos--who want to play nice with the Jebs and Harrises of America instead of fighting them and their deep-pocketed patrons--just fine

[Betty Karlson]

48. "Vote for Clinton or else"

Nice slogan. Good luck with the last 20th century campaign. Treasure the memories.

[PowerToThePeople]

49. I think you are correct

Instead of trying to be the Most Liberal Liberal Ever To Liberal I have now settled for

The least Fascist Fascist ever to Fascist.

I feel good about this change.

[Maedhros]

53. I refuse to be bullie, cajoled or shamed into voting for a candidate

that does not represent my interests.

[elana i am]

55. let's see...

do i vote for clinton or do i write in the democrat?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. No. Candidates who don't appeal to enough voters lose elections.

It's up to the candidates to convince voters to vote for them. If Hillary wants the votes of the Left she must convince us that she is of the Left rather than the Right or Center.

[Cassiopeia]

61. If she was totally unknown that might be possible.

However, she has over 2 decades in the national spotlight. She can paint herself any way she wants, but her spots and true colors will always shine through.

[jfern]

70. There's literally nothing Hillary could do to convince me she is left

Maybe if she had pretended to be liberal from the moment she announced, I might be gullible enough to believe, but she has advocated taking out Assad ASAP, lied about single payer healthcare, and lied about Glass Steagal. There's no way she could possibly convince me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Nor me.

[Le Taz Hot]

64. Bernie Supporters are Poopie Heads.

Version 8,562.

'cause this shit never gets old.

[Cassiopeia]

65. We really are.

We care about more than victory, we care about what it brings.

Clearly we're great big poopie heads.

[coyote]

68. Am I suppose the get in line now because she has a (D) behind her name?

And that is a questionable (D) at best. I don't vote for people that work against me and have bad judgement.

[Hekate]

72. Good insightful article

I'm having a bad time trying to read it all the way through because my iPad keeps crashing, but that is about par for the course with this gadget.

Thanks for sharing the essay with us, though -- we have way too many members who just have no freaking clue.

[ViseGrip]

76. Well then, OUR party should have played fair, and they didn't. Not a formula to win. They know this.

So why did they do all of the things they did, to piss off what appears to be more than half of the activists? OUR PARTY COULD BLOW THIS ELECTION, AND THEY KNOW IT!
So call THEM, and ask them why?

[DinahMoeHum]

77. Bernie IS NOT going Third-Party in the general election. . .

. . .if he does not get the Democratic nomination and HRC does. Bank on it.

Bernie himself has said that he will wholeheartedly support HRC if she wins the nomination.
Please do the same, if you truly support him.

[Cassiopeia]

79. Exactly

That won't stop the Hillary fans from repeating it over and over again.

[LWolf]

78. Neo-liberal Democrats could blow this election

by driving off the Democrat left with their constant attacks and preemptive blame games.

[AgingAmerican]

82. Tell Obama to fire corrupt DWS then. That would be a good start.

If Hillary loses its because she is too right wing. That and corruption being committed in her name.