Agree with Hillary and disagree with Bernie on college

[KentuckyWoman]

We should be supporting people with the ability and drive to complete college including all costs (living expenses etc) rather than burning up the money on free tuition for everyone as if it's the replacement for a HS diploma.

I believe for profit colleges will just jack up the other expenses if they lose the ability to jack up tuition. Not to mention not everyone is cut out for college or has a career interest that is college appropriate. Better to spend the money to do a better job of education K-12 and for vocational schools for those careers more suited to that kind of training.

[onecaliberal]

1. No one will be forced into college under the Sanders plan.

[yeoman6987]

4. Yes but most will go and to get a good job will require a minimum of a masters degree

It would happen. Actually happens now.

[KentuckyWoman]

5. Not what I said.

Bernie said college degrees are now an expectation like HS diplomas were at one time.

If so, I think that's a mistake. We need better options for young people. Yes, people are required to go to school by law until age 16 I think... or else the truant officer goes and finds them or their parents. College isn't expected to be that kind of requirement but to make it a societal expectation I think is not the right use of our money.

[onecaliberal]

8. If you see where jobs are going in this country, more people will need it.

Manufacturing is gone. Where do you think all these people would work? The service industry isn't a living wage.

[KentuckyWoman]

11. Most jobs don't require college now.

oh employers prefer college degrees now for the same exact work that used to require high school. But the skills required for the job don't have anything to do with college.

[onecaliberal]

12. Exactly. They are flipping burgers. That's definitely living the dream.

It's definitely ease to buy a house and support kids on those jobs. THIS is A large part of the problem. The jobs of the future aren't flipping burgers.

[KentuckyWoman]

13. They aren't college jobs.

I'm not talking about flipping burgers. What are considered decent paying jobs are still mostly jobs that are best served by vocational or technical training or simply a decent K-12 education. College has some benefits that are not income earning related but if we are talking how best to train the workers of the future college is a financially wasteful way to do it.

That said, I do think those who have the appropriate ability and interest in college need better support. I'd take a Bernie or Hillary plan in a heartbeat over what we have now.

[onecaliberal]

14. That might be true in your area, in my neck of the woods not so much.

Glad to hear you support reform.

[fleur-de-lisa]

6. LOL! I can't beleive that had to be stated . . .

there's always one!

[The Boss]

2. The free tuition is dependent on qualified HS students..

You know, those who are serious about their education.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. He's not suggesting that college should be mandatory

or that other forms of higher education (e.g., trade schools) would not be included in the program; my understanding is that they would be. The reality these days is that if all a person has is a high school diploma, they will have a tough time getting a decent job. You need at least some kind of post-high-school certification if not a bachelors' degree. In many other countries free college tuition is the norm because those countries recognize that there are few more valuable investments in their future than educating their people. And, by the way, taxpayers wouldn't be paying rich kids' tuition because rich people aren't going to be sending their kids to public universities to rub shoulders with hoi polloi.

[EndElectoral]

7. It is also public colleges, not private schools where many of the wealthy go.

[angrychair]

9. You do realize

That many modern nations have free or heavily subsidized college and vocational education and it is not a waste of money.
Sanders plan covers college and vocational education.

Lastly, I believe that those that disagree with a comprehensive education plan like Bernie's are often those that I assume are just better suited to the Clinton millionaire class than regular people like me and most of the people I know.

[99Forever]

10. If those "for profit colleges will just jack up the other expenses"...

So what? They don't get subsidized anyway. So fuck 'em, let 'em charge whatever they please for anything and everything.

Perhaps you would be well advised to read up on what Bernie's plan actually is, as you pretty clearly don't even know the most basic facts about it.

[Doctor_J]

15. yes the party is moving farther to the right all the time. That is a huge reason it is

Losing so much ground every election. Conservatives vote primarily for republicans, people like you and Mrs Clinton drag the party away from young people, liberals, and those who would like things to change - raise wages, cut the Pentagon budget, make healthcare a right, and stop passing disastrous trade deals. Such people realize that no one on their ballot is going to even try to fix anything, and thus decline to vote. That leaves the party with pretty much no constituency except for people who think we need to have a woman president.

[KentuckyWoman]

18. actually

I plan to vote for Bernie. No idea why that requires me to agree with everything he says. Or disagree with everything Hillary says.

But hey, at least you got your commercial in the thread.

[Ron Green]

16. Tuition at public college used to be free. Mine was free.

We just do that again, see?

[CajunBlazer]

17. I'm affaid that free tuition would be abused by too many students

First of all not everyone is college material. Maybe that is not a polite thing to say, it is never the less true. For some it is a matter of aptitude or background, but for many it is more it is a matter of not taking full advantages of high school and even elementary education and/or the unwillingness to work hard enough on their studies to to make up on anyy gaps they may have.

I went to collage at a time when college wasn't free, but it was relatively cheap. I can remember a large percentage of my Freshman class were more centered on having a good time than they were on their studies.

So many flunked out after their first semester of their Freshman year because they didn't even maintain a 0.5 grade point in a 4.0 system (that means getting more D's than F's). The university had to change the rules such that Freshman could not flunk out after only one semester. Instead anyone with less than a 1.5 grade point average was put on probation and would flunk out if they did not make at lease a 2.0 the second semester of their Freshman year.

The reason was that the University was having to build Freshman dorms which were relatively empty for the spring semester so they couldn't pay for them.

I am all for helping the deserving, but an education has to be appreciated.

[quaker bill]

19. Making it expensive does not improve this

The punchline is that there always is a large group of incoming freshmen that have no clue what they are getting into. When I went to college in the 1980s, tuition was still expensive, though more affordable than now. Each fall it was impossible to find a parking space anywhere near the classroom buildings. This continued until week 6 of the term when the final date for withdrawal was scheduled. At that point students could drop out without being graded a failure. From there forward I could park close in and enjoy a much shorter hike.

I took Organic Chemistry (for chem majors). I started in the fall in a lecture hall with 120 students, and the professor informed us early on that very few would complete the class. I finished in the spring in a single session classroom with 12 other students. This is how it works in a State University. They let a lot of people in and allow the course work to sort out who should be there.

(I was among 3 who made "A"s for all of it - chemistry and botany were my favs)

[krispos42]

21. Some people are community college or trade school material.

There's a lot of money and pride in being a car mechanic, electrician, plumber, or machinist, including starting your own small business.

I work in a machine shop. Lots of talented people there that probably couldn't or wouldn't finish the first year of a 4-year degree. But they make decent money and have their lives more or less on track.

I personally went to the Stamford branch of UConn for 2 years as a commuter before going to the main campus. Didn't graduate but turned my credits into a BGS degree when I was 38. Some 14 years after leaving.

People can take weird educational journeys.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. So in that other thread where you claimed to have 41 years in IT, you also have no degree?

Oh there I see 'I went to college' you say. It's just 'those others' who are inferior that should not attend. I've asked the OP about her degrees. Mike Rowe, who holds the same views holds a degree in communications which allows him to make millions just talking about how hard those without a degree work every day. So he has his degree. You have yours. All those who advocate against more access to education have education themselves. Fancy that.

[KentuckyWoman]

25. I have no college.

And I am not college material. Bookkeeping and office management didn't require a degree and paid decent. In my 60's I was in management roles and had the freedom to tell a business owner to shove it. I started a business that employs 19 people in eastern Kentucky in direct competition with far better compensation and working conditions than can be found most anywhere else.

Someone who wanted the type of career I have had could not do it now without a bachelor's degree - even here in east Kentucky. Which is ridiculous since nothing in college is necessary to do the job. Like I said in another post, college has benefits not job related. But as far as training people to be workers, college is not the most financially efficient way to do so.

[CajunBlazer]

28. My father was teacher, my mother was homemaker - there was no abundence of money...

.... in my home. I worked 15 to 20 hours a week to support myself and pay for collage while pursuing an engineering degree, taking anywhere from 18 to 21 hours a semester of very difficult subjects. Not easy - my social life suffered some - but not too badly - I just got less sleep than most people. I also worked full time every summer for the same purpose.

For a large percentage of my fellow students learning and securing their futures were not their highest objectives. They were young - having fun, drinking and getting laid were highest on their priority lists as they are for many in that age group. Things have changed - kids haven't. The son of one of my close friends who paid for all of his son's college and living expenses spent a year in college without darkening a classroom with his presence more than a few times. He was kicked out of school with 0.1 grad point - he got a D in a PE class because they seldom took roll.

So no, I am not in favor of giving a free ride in college to all kids of that age any more that I am in favor of buying them a new car as soon as the get a driver's license. I don't want public money wasted which could be used more profitably elsewhere.

I am in favor of public assistance, even free scholarships for serious students, especially those who could not afford college otherwise. I am even in favor of providing assistance to those who aren't serious students coming out of high school when they finely come to their senses later in life. I am not in favor of providing free college expenses for non serious students nor for those whose parents are well able to afford to pay for their education. I certainly don't feel obligated to pay for the education of the children of the 1%.

If that makes me less of a progressive; That's okay. I would like to be considered rational more than I would like to be considered progressive. Maybe it is opinions like this one which brands some of us here on DU as more moderate - if so it is a brand we should wear proudly.

[ljm2002]

20. Bernie's plan for free college tuition...

...at all public universities and colleges, applies to those who qualify. I don't know why everyone hears "free tuition" and translates that to "anyone and everyone can attend and get free tuition!". People still have to qualify, they have to have the GPA to get in, and maintain it at a certain level.

Also, there is no reason Bernie's plan could not apply to vocational schools as well; unfortunately, though, there are fewer public institutions teaching vocational skills these days so it would not be as easy to implement as free tuition for existing public universities and colleges.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Why do you speak of private colleges when Bernie's plan is about public colleges only? Also

I'd like to know if you have a degree yourself. Mike Rowe pushes this same trope and Mike Rowe pushes it using his degree in communications which allows him to have a job yammering about actually laborious occupations. I have a problem with Rowe because of that. He has a degree that allowed him to get a job talking about how other people have to work hard and that also allows him to say others should not have a degree like his, but instead should work hard and give him something to narrate for a six figure fee.

So. What is your degree in, where is it from?

[Motown_Johnny]

23. Not everyone will go just because they can.

This is an investment in America's future. You either understand that or you don't.

The more people who can attend college the better. End of story.

[cantbeserious]

26. Agree With Bernie - Disagree With HRC

eom

[mikehiggins]

27. another way to divide us: People with college degrees are BETTER than those without.

Nonsense. My only response to that is the phrase "who the f--k are YOU to judge me?" Its all anecdotal, of course, but I know many men and women with college degrees who are nowhere near as intelligent as I am. When I realized college was not for me (though I did love the drinking and partying) I took a hike and wangled a way into a construction job. There is nothing wrong with that and nothing that makes me inferior to someone like George Bush who went to Yale(?).

If a kid has the ability AND wants to get a college education (as opposed to a college degree) more power to him or her. I'd rather see my taxes go in that direction than going for cluster bombs in the middle east.

And, oh yeah, most of the people who led this country into war crimes in the MidEast have degrees from prestigious universities. I'd rather hang out with a bunch of iron workers or plumbers. They earn their money.