Democratic Debate Thread 4

[longship]

Let's keep the discussion going.

Please be respectful and address the issues.

This is why debates are important.

Keep it going, my good friends.
Oopsie: thread 4

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Psssst.... 4...

[bullwinkle428]

2. Shouldn't this be thread 4?

[demmiblue]

3. 3.5?

[still_one]

4. six minute abs. Crazy talk

[mindwalker_i]

5. How about 4 + 3i?

Lots of complex issues

[longship]

10. I am all over complex analysis, but not in this debate. Pretty simple, actually. nt

[Android3.14]

132. Now you are just being plane imaginary

[mindwalker_i]

136. Nice :)

[femmocrat]

6. Will Hillary get back in time?

We'll see!

[demmiblue]

7. Well, I just...

Used the bathroom
Washed my hands
Brushed my teeth
Scritched my dog

I'm here on time!

[femmocrat]

12. I bet it's kind of like a boxing match back stage.

The candidates go to their corners and get their trainers to clean them off and prop them back up to go out there for another round!

[one_voice]

8. Now BLM.

[nc4bo]

9. Rahm Emmanuel also said something akin to the Ferguson-effect.nt

[global1]

11. George S. Just Had To Make A Comment In Favor Of Hillary....

during this break. I guess he felt that she needed some help.

[Hepburn]

13. They are part of corporate America...not unexpected...

...just sad that they feel they need to run to her support.

[MoonRiver]

21. Bwahaha

[bobbobbins01]

14. Bernie killing it right now about criminal justice, etc.

He owns this topic.

[Hepburn]

31. This was good.

[longship]

15. Marijuana! Bernie goes there.

No minimum sentences. More education and less incarceration.

[longship]

16. Heroine! nt

[Renew Deal]

17. Can you imagine the republicans being asked such a question?

[longship]

20. Nope! nt

[Renew Deal]

23. Hillary mentioned a plan. I found the link

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/09/02/combat-addiction/

[mindwalker_i]

37. The repubs would be better of ON heroin

[Marty McGraw]

139. a little late on my part, but

[mindwalker_i]

140. Ha, you got it before next year

... at least from Pacific time

[BlueCheese]

25. It's "heroin"

"Heroine" is something entirely different.

[longship]

35. Bad cheese, very bad cheese!

Glad to have your contribution here.

[BlueCheese]

18. There are some people who think that one reason Vermont and New Hampshire...

... have such high heroin rates is that guns being bought in Vermont are used to trade for heroin.

http://vtdigger.org/2015/07/28/terry-allen-the-vt-ny-heroin-and-guns-carousel/

[Gregorian]

19. Addiction is a disease, not a crime. Bernie knows what works.

[Kentonio]

22. Hillary was winning big earlier

But Bernie is really coming into his own now. Hope he keeps it up.

[firebrand80]

24. Hillary and O'Malley give anecdotes on addiction

Bernie could learn from that personal touch. Not just on this issue, but overall.

[valerief]

29. He's just not a warm and fuzzy guy. He won't change. That's fine with me. nt

[firebrand80]

34. Understood, but it helps win more votes nt

[valerief]

43. But if he does it poorly, it turns off voters. Better to not do it at all. nt

[firebrand80]

58. All politicians have to learn it

Hillary was terrible at this early on in 2007. She's still not great at it, but she learned how to do enough of it to get by

[valerief]

73. Looks like Bernie did it while talking about his wife Jane! Ha!!!

He must have heard us.

[firebrand80]

75. LOL, right on cue

[elleng]

45. No 'anecdote' by O'Malley, a PLAN:

Addiction treatment and prevention
https://martinomalley.com/policy/addiction-treatment-and-prevention/

[valerief]

26. Heroin epidemic? Wasn't that was why our troops were in Afghanistan?

World's opium supply in Afghanistan went from something like 10% to 90% during our time there.

[Renew Deal]

32. No, they were there because of 9/11

[valerief]

50. Rrrrrright. nt

[Dragonfli]

89. I thought we went to Iraq because 911 that was why Hillary voted for it

911 hurt Wall St bad and she had to vote to help them 'cause 911.

I get confused because everything is 911.

[lark]

137. NO, that was the excuse.

We were there for Unocal and an oil pipeline and the war machine. The rest is the excuse they let happen. Cheney foretold this when he went to AFghanistan and said we will carpet your country in money if you sign the agreement or we will carpet your country in blood if you don't. I'm not a big believer in coincidence, but yes am

[alfredo]

133. Blame that on Richard Secord. He has a history of shady dealings in war zones.

He was linked to SE Asian heroin during the Vietnam war (Air America). He was linked to Cocaine (Southern Air)when he was "resupplying the contras." His air transport company was present from the beginning of the war in Afghanistan.

The Taliban had stopped the opium trade. That was either to drive up prices, or to fuck with opposition tribal leaders.

More on Secord: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKsecordR.htm

[elleng]

27. MO'M on Addiction treatment and prevention

https://martinomalley.com/policy/addiction-treatment-and-prevention/

[MH1]

78. I replied on this topic

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=925891

(I should have replied to your post here)

One thing I see that is missing on MO'M's policy page about this (your link), is the potential from medical marijuana as an alternative pain treatment, or as a part of an overall pain treatment program that can reduce the role of opiates for a given patient.

My main point is that there are many people who for various reasons are facing significant chronic pain, and they should have access to what is the best option for them - and sometimes the best option involves opiates. (Obviously addiction is not an issue for someone in hospice, for example. But then there is pre-hospice, and lots of other conditions where major pain management is required.)

[elleng]

92. Thanks. You should write to him/his campaign about that.

[longship]

28. Well, concerning opiates, they could start with Rush Limbaugh.

Just saying.

[Renew Deal]

30. Back to Lybia... How much does Hillary bare for chaos there?

I supported protecting civilians on the ground.

[Robbins]

33. Oh God

moderater allowed clinton to go back to libya to push her hawkish ways

[nc4bo]

36. Eta...they all get to go. nt

[MoonRiver]

39. He didn't ALLOW her to do anything!

He asked her about Libya for God's sake. She answered the question.

[Renew Deal]

38. Hillary has a good answer about Libya

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2015, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

What was possible and what was acceptable to the locals was different.

[MoonRiver]

42. Yes she did.

[CTyankee]

138. And she even knows where it is, unlike some repubs.

So we can start there. Then move forward. I don't think an R candidate who isn't up to speed on Libya can possibly win in an argument with HRC but they love to blame her all the time so that is where they will go. I think she (or any candidate we have) should stay away from anything that can easily be copped for an R soundbite, such as "What difference does it make?&quot .

Of course, it is all ridiculous with these RWers, like another universe entirely...

[MH1]

40. Not sure I like the hawkishness on alleged "over-prescribing"

I know someone very well who is a doctor, and whose patients tend to be elderly, very sick, and often low-income.

There are times opiates are the best option and there are times when potential addiction is a less bad risk than the consequences of not fully treating the pain. But docs already have a lot of pressure and "oversight" (sometimes over-oversight) on opiate prescriptions.

The bigger issue than docs like the one I know, is the one who is behaving as a pill mill. This can be caught by better electronic monitoring. (which last time I checked was not implemented to the extent it could be)

Another alternative is wider availability of medical marijuana. Docs need options for pain treatment, and medical pot would give them another option.

Just putting this out there. Both Clinton and O'Malley made similar comments about "over-prescribing" and I am concerned they are over-simplifying on this issue. (Which I would observe, is uncharacteristic of O'Malley at least.)

[demmiblue]

53. +1

[Kentonio]

55. The US prescribes the vast majority of opiates in the world proportionatly

[Dem2]

114. I had to shake my head in the affirmative though

I and my significant other have both been tossed Vicodin after every minor procedure - doctor or dentist! If I'm ever tossed it again, I'm going to threaten the doctor with arrest for pushing an addictive drug without even asking me if I'm tolerant of said drug.

I felt the addictive high and subsequent crash after a single pill. It almost pushed me into a depressive episode. ONE FUCKING PILL. This is a very serious issue and doctors need to be held accountable for the sometimes horrific reaction people have to these highly addictive drugs. My significant other only gets sick on Vicodin, but they still toss it at her like candy. Please tell your doctor friends to pass the word around - many of us react poorly to drugs like Vicodin and other similar opioid/opiate based pain killers.

[MH1]

121. Oh I agree with your frustration at the situation you describe.

The doctor I know personally and am referring to here, would not do what you describe (I don't think, anyway).

Also, I am talking about chronic pain conditions, not so much the script someone gets after a procedure.

For chronic pain, the doc needs to do a pain management plan and it should involve multiple strategies. But politicians don't know what they're talking about in these cases and need to let the doctor do his or her job.

I do think O'Malley typically takes a comprehensive view of an issue and I trust him more than Clinton to have a nuanced plan that allows for chronic pain treatment.

[Dem2]

124. OK, thanks - I will take your word on the chronic pain management

In that case I imagine doctors are somewhat better at monitoring their patients and I couldn't make an intelligent call of which candidate is more informed on the topic.

[Renew Deal]

41. Hillary calls out Sanders for voting for regime change in Libya

Last edited Sun Dec 27, 2015, 12:57 AM - Edit history (1)

She's really driven the point home tonight.

[MoonRiver]

47. As she should.

The record needs to be clear

[still_one]

62. That is what you are supposed to do in debates. If one candidate find a weakness or an incorrect

statement made by another candidate, ya point it out. That is what is called taking advantage of opportunities

[EndElectoral]

76. Bernie made mistake by raising his hand to try and respond. Just talk over moderators.

[still_one]

125. This is all about assertiveness without being rude. Not easy to pull off

[Gregorian]

44. Thank you Bernie for pointing out that wars have consequences!

I never thought I'd live to see the day when the standard default was that our invasions were a good thing.

[nc4bo]

51. +1. nt

[ProudToBeLiberal]

46. We were talking about the economy and all of a sudden we get libya. wtf o.o nt

[Renew Deal]

48. "Is it time to change the role of a presidents spouse?"

No

[femmocrat]

61. Dopey question time.

Although that is the first time that I heard Hillary talk about what Bill's role could be.

[Renew Deal]

64. Exactly

I looked at the time as soon as I heard it.

[BlueCheese]

49. Clinton has obvious mastery of foreign policy knowledge.

You don't have to agree with her, but she certainly knows her stuff.

Also, I seem to remember there was a lot of support for intervening in Libya. Even the Arab League was in favor of it.

[Hepburn]

60. I cannot agree.

Anyone who voted YES on the IWR has no clue on foreign policy.

[LuvLoogie]

77. John Kerry?

[bobbobbins01]

69. I'd agree...she has knowledge, she just lacks wisdom.

Her decision making ability is very questionable.

[frylock]

81. +1

[Hepburn]

82. Too hawkish for me.

[ViseGrip]

130. Me too

[Gregorian]

52. Who is this goulish moderator? It's like Night Of The Living Debate.

[longship]

131. DUzy!

Just going back through these threads and saw this.

Priceless response.

[bettyellen]

54. embarrassing question about Bill being a first lady.... yikes.

she handled it gracefully.

[BlueCheese]

56. These questions about presidential spouses are asinine.

Seriously, what the hell?

[BlueCheese]

66. After the kerfuffle about the data breach over the last two days...

It's been such a breath of fresh air to have the candidates speak for themselves, and be thoughtful and positive about it.

[bettyellen]

67. because it is so funny to imagine Bill doing it. But WTF was Hillary supposed to say?

[ViseGrip]

129. They are asked to remind voters about Bill Clinton actually going back to the WH

[longship]

57. Oh dear. I thought I liked Martha Raditiz. Not so sure now.

That's what we need. A POTUS who can pick out the china in the White House.

[Hepburn]

63. LOL!

[valerief]

68. I know! What a dreadful question. nt

[Renew Deal]

59. Hillary: "I'm going to pick the flowers and the china for state dinners."

[bettyellen]

65. well if she said Bill or some assistant would do it, that would be on the cover of the news tomorrow

sad, but true.

[Renew Deal]

71. I would go with the "I'm concerned with the issues american people face" answer

[bettyellen]

95. then she is humorless, and insulting to all the Flotii, past and present.

[nolabear]

84. "...and fry them up in the pan."

It was that stupid a question, but I think they always have to have a wind-down.

[elleng]

70. KATY O'MALLEY for FIRST LADY!!!

[MH1]

83. I think a lot of the audience liked the way MO'M responded on that question.

I sure did.

[elleng]

97. Me too,

and tho it began to hrc re: bill, I don't object to the question.

[longship]

72. And now it is about spouses, instead of the rest of this debate, on important issues.

Thank you, ABC, for lowering expectations. And how about those Kardashians!

Way to lower intelligent discussion.

[Kentonio]

74. Excellent answer by Martin on the lightweight spouse question

[MH1]

88. Yes, I thought it was a bogus question at first, but Martin's response was great.

And it did give insight into the candidates' attitudes toward their spouses and by extension male/female roles and equality in the marital relationship.

[MH1]

90. Clinton gets the first word, and Clinton gets the last word. Huh.

Oh yeah, it's alphabetical.


(Hey, this wasn't supposed to be here, it was supposed to be a reply to the main thread. Oh well.)

[Hepburn]

93. Except at the end where it's reverse alphabetical...

gee, funny how that worked out to give HRC the first and last comments. Talk about transparent!

[MH1]

98. Yepperrooo, my thinking exactly.

Not transparent at all, eh?

[Kentonio]

94. Yeah, funny that..

[BlueCheese]

79. The ABC news people are spending the break in a Democratic debate...

... talking about Donald Trump.

[Hepburn]

85. This is just so bad...really bad...horrible debate...

...except for the Dem candidates being far better than those running the show!

[erpowers]

135. I Agree

It was a good debate, but I wish ABC had used a different format. It was hard for the candidates to respond to what the others on the stage were saying. I would have preferred a format in which each candidate was asked a question, then the other two were allowed to respond, and finally, the person first asked the question was allowed a rebuttal. I realize a debate with that type of format may have included less topics and might have become boring, but I would have preferred less topics if the candidates did not have to fight in order to be heard and give rebuttals.

[demmiblue]

80. Both Sanders and O'Malley had wonderful, heartfelt responses.

Don't mess with Katy!

[longship]

86. Closing statements!

Bernie first.

[Renew Deal]

87. Closing statements. Sanders "We have a lot more to offer than the RW extremists."

[firebrand80]

91. Political Revolution!

[longship]

96. They can have their anger. O'Malley! nt

[Renew Deal]

99. O'Malley: Climate change "is the greatest business opportunity in the last 100 years."

[firebrand80]

100. O'Malley should just get on his knees

[EndElectoral]

101. Why did Clinton get to go first, and speak last?

I'd be curious to know how much time she got to speak compared to everyone else.

[MH1]

106. Because DNC. nt

[bettyellen]

102. Hillary: our rights at risk, so security, veterans and planned parenthood screwed w Republicans....

running the nation. True, that.

[brooklynite]

109. "May the Force Be With You"

[bettyellen]

127. HA

[longship]

103. Social Security, which they portray as a Ponzi scheme. Hillary Clinton. nt

[demmiblue]

104. Fear, fear, fear...is not what I want to hear. n/t

[firebrand80]

105. *mic drop*

[femmocrat]

107. "May the force be with you!"

[Renew Deal]

108. Hillary closes with "May the force be with you" to wild cheers.

Disney network owns Lucasfilm

[LittleBlue]

110. Hillary, your granddaughter will likely be worth $100m or more

She will attend Harvard no matter what grades she achieves.

[IcyPeas]

111. Hillary: perfect ending

[BlueCheese]

112. I was really afraid Clinton was leading up to the cliche, "God bless America" at the end.

Suffice it to say I was surprised at what actually happened.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

113. Good night and may the force be with you -Hillary Clinton

Nice ending to the debate!

[liberalnarb]

115. That was great

Props

[flying rabbit]

117. Definite style points! nt

[Kentonio]

116. Very nicely done by Hillary at the end there

[demmiblue]

118. Thank you, longship, for starting the debate threads.

[longship]

126. You are most welcome.

I wanted threads which encouraged discussion, not childish tantrums. So I took the initiative. I think it worked out well.

My best to you.

[BlueCheese]

119. The candidates are so much better speaking for themselves...

... than when letting their staff snipe. I suppose that's by design-- the staff can lob attacks and not have it stick to their candidate. But after yesterday's depressing spectacle, it was really nice to hear them talk issues again.

[mvd]

120. Thought Bernie did great!

I am sure that supporters of each candidate will think their choice did the best, barring a disastrous performance. And I don't think anyone was that bad. I did like Hillary's final statement, but Bernie as usual was with me most on the issues. Did not like when Hillary opposed Bernie on Medicare for All and student loan help and tackling Wall Street. I am proud to support him.

[longship]

122. Thank you very much for all of your participitations.

Last edited Sun Dec 20, 2015, 01:51 AM - Edit history (1)

One thing we can all agree upon is that, the Democratic Party is united, in spite of policy differences.

And get this very, very clearly. The DNC data base breech is nothing compared to what we have to fight. Tonight proved that beyond debate. (So to speak.)

We unite, or we lose. And let nobody here say that they will not support the Democratic nominee. The alternative is too horrible to consider.

Thank you all for your contributions.

I love you all.

[L. Coyote]

123. Rec Rec Rec

[flying rabbit]

128. +1 nt

[bigwillq]

134. Thanks for the threads.

[slipslidingaway]

141. Was there a debate tonight? Did not watch the last one, would almost not be surprised if the Dems...

held a New Year's Eve debate as they have totally screwed up their debate schedule and let the Repubs have control of corporate media.

If some Repub wins we can look to our party leaders to blame, this was our election to lose.

And the Dems 'supposedly' want universal HC but they do not fight for it, just calling a spade a spade. No sugar coating and blaming the other party for our faults.

[longship]

142. Dec 19. These threads have been up for a while.

My best to you. And Happy New Year to you.

[slipslidingaway]

143. Well we did not watch, spending time with family ...

but I will say that if the Dems lose they played the game horribly, ceding valuable prime time media attention to the Repubs.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

[rtracey]

144. maybe time to take this down

[demwing]

145. Irony, lol