This will get resolved one way or the other. The damage is done in my mind, though.

[madfloridian]

It's like the full colors of the DNC and the Hillary campaign and its surrogates just unfurled clearly.

My mind is made up about supporting Bernie Sanders. Nothing they say or do will change that.

It's strange how small and petty this whole event seems. I was furious at first, but now whatever more they do just doesn't mean a thing.

I will keep donating and supporting Bernie, and whatever other decisions that must be made can wait until the primary is over.

It's like we just got a very disturbing look at the man behind the curtain, playing with the controls, being in command.

I don't think any of this will harm Bernie or his campaign. We will have to wait until next year to determine whether any of this will harm the party itself or other candidates.

[MohRokTah]

1. "It's like we just got a very disturbing look at the man behind the curtain,..."

Yep, and as my gut told me the first time I ever heard than man speak, he lacks character.

[madfloridian]

5. About that gif.

It makes Hillary look smug and condescending. I know the context was a hearing, but I tend to take it personally here.

[MohRokTah]

10. That's your problem, not mine. eom

[madfloridian]

12. Yep that sounds like what Hillary would be saying in that gif.

[MohRokTah]

14. Your JPG is far more disturbing. eom

[madfloridian]

20. My cute lil Bernie Bear is disturbing?

lol

[MohRokTah]

22. Not cute but is disturbing. eom

[BeanMusical]

60. You're easily disturbed.

A Teddy Bear?

[treestar]

89. It is kind of weird

never noticed that before. Why make a little teddy bear out of a candidate? Doesn't seem to say anything about the candidate.

[Armstead]

107. There is a company called Vermont Teddy Bear

Kind of a biog deal in Vermont as a national company.

My guess is it relates to that.

Plus there's a lot of bears in them thar hills.

[madfloridian]

113. Well, doggone it, why not?

It's not offensive, like the gif of Hillary dusting off her shoulder. It's just cute.

[Gore1FL]

53. Your grave dancing gifs are by far the worse.

It's a particularly ugly thing when you celebrate things like that.

[MohRokTah]

54. I support the decision of the Admins. eom

[Gore1FL]

80. No, you celebrate it.

Grave dancing makes DU suck. If you supported the admins, you wouldn't make their site suck.

[MohRokTah]

81. No, defying the admins makes DU suck

Your gif is there in defiance of the admins.

When I see those gifs disappear, my gifs will also disappear.

[Gore1FL]

82. If you want to grave dance, please proceed.

It only speaks to your shortcomings.

[MohRokTah]

83. If you want to defy the admins, please proceed.

It only speaks to your shortcomings.

[Gore1FL]

84. How am I defying the admins?

Please, be specific. Provide links to those examples. Then alert on those examples.

Thanks! I look forward to your post!

[Gore1FL]

94. Funny how quick you were with the responses until you actually were challenged for evidence.

Thanks for proving my point, grave dancer.

[treestar]

90. why when the people who got the tombstone

were people who violated the TOS and/or were too rude to keep from getting hides? Why are we to feel sorry and respectful towards these people?

[Gore1FL]

93. Celebrating the banning of a long-term DUer is stupid enough.

Doing it because the long-term DUer supports a different candidate is even stupider.

The stupidest thing, however, are the people defending their grave dancing.

All of the above make DU suck.

[treestar]

96. well if that person was annoying someone long term

I could see DU getting better for the remainder.

And they did something wrong to get banned. They could still be here is they had just not done that.

[Gore1FL]

97. And celebrating someone's else's troubles is OK why? n/t

[treestar]

99. They are the one who created trouble for the board

that's why they got banned. And they are no longer here disrupting and annoying us. We the remaining posters were the one with the trouble.

[Gore1FL]

104. I see. So morality and decency take second place to political views.

And here all along I thought it was only the right that did that.

[treestar]

109. the person who got banned should have been moral and decent to the rest of us

or they would not have gotten banned. They did not abide by the community rules - morality and decency come to mind for those who do because they are respectful of others.

[Gore1FL]

112. He stated an opinion that was against the rules.

He wasn't an indecent and immoral asshole. Grave dancers are. They make DU suck.

[treestar]

114. He was the one who had to leave

He's only an internet account - grave dancing is not all that bad and you can ignore the threads. Calling it immoral and indecent is a stretch.

[Gore1FL]

118. It seems amazing that people are so riled over "only an internet account" to grave dance.

They make DU suck.

[SwampG8r]

105. What about people who

Act egregiously are timed out over and over and over but are allowed to return over and over

[treestar]

115. is it all that common? More than Will Pitt?

[SwampG8r]

120. Common is relative

Some are out more than they are in yet their behaviours never improve
I know alert and pm stalking and jury stacking are going on as i have been a subject to each so some are in and out a lot because of running feuds
There are about a dozen who i can think of off hand. Is a dozen a lot?
I point no fingers of those i can think of they are a full demographic of du . both candidates are represented. The omally people have totally dropped the ball here btw.
I find it most amusing those getting hides who go afterwards to safe haven groups for hifiving and martyr tears. I have 2 hides and i earned them both all by myself . every hide is earned by the poster but some refuse to accept their part in what they do.
I feel like 5 time outs should prove you cant conduct yourself in a civil manner but i dont swing the ban hammer here

[Juicy_Bellows]

16. It is and I agree, smug - same with the fly swatter - disrespectful.

It lets you know whether to back the salt truck up for their posts fairly quickly though.

[Leftyforever]

76. +1

[Chan790]

34. It's hard to hide your true self...

when you really are that smug and condescending.

In this case, your perception is reality. That's who Hillary is. Smug, condescending and filled with an inflated sense of entitlement.

[BeanMusical]

62. +1

[libdem4life]

92. I think that every time I see it. There she goes again. Peasants.

[Punkingal]

41. That's exactly how it looks.

[NorthCarolina]

57. But when Obama did the shoulder brush folks loved it.

Hillary made sure to use that at some point this go around. Since it worked so well for Obama and all.

[madfloridian]

98. I was an Obama supporter then, and I did not look that gif at all.

[Depaysement]

8. That's an amazing statement

Just absurd in the extreme.

[msongs]

9. lol nt

[arcane1]

26. Cool story n/t

[baldguy]

58. +1000

[BeanMusical]

63. "as my gut told me the first time I ever heard than man speak..."

You should ask your Doctor if a gut transplant is right for you.

[Dawson Leery]

77. We must look at an actual Democrat to run for Vermont Senate in 2018.

[MohRokTah]

78. Yep, time to end the Sanders political career forever.

HE needs to be taken out of the Senate.

[Dawson Leery]

79. This is the same nonsense from 2008.

The extremes on both sides have a horrific and unjustified hatred of the Clintons. It is beyond absurd.
I am willing to work to end the careers of these jackals.

[Kentonio]

100. Don't worry, he will be out of the senate

Safely sat in the Oval Office.

[Gore1FL]

119. The state will replace him in 2017

He can't be in two branches of government at the same time.

[peacebird]

2. Me too. I am not sure Hillary is ready for the new PUMA.

Party Unity My Ass.

Check twitter or reddit... Huge numbers swearing this means they will never vote for Hillary

Dirty tricks tend to piss people off

[Jester Messiah]

4. Yep

If this is where the party is headed, I'm out.

[MissDeeds]

11. Every Democrat I've spoken to today says the same

They see right through this and swear they will never vote for her.

I guess the old PUMA thing swings both ways.

[mythology]

23. So the dirty trick isn't intentionally stealing data that would specifically benefit

the Sanders campaign? This breach may have started as an accident, but the reporting is that the log files show 4 staffers from the Sanders campaign ran very specific reports that would very clearly be of benefit to the Sanders campaign and somehow Clinton or the DNC is at fault.

I feel like the people who are swearing they won't vote for Clinton if she wins the nomination are either just making stuff up about this or are so blinded by their devotion to Sanders that he could curb stomp kittens and they would blame the DNC or Clinton or somebody else.

If this had been a minor breach with no evidence of intentional and beneficial searching this would have blown over by lunch. But the Sanders team doesn't appear to be being very honest about what their staffers did.

[arcane1]

27. No data was stolen, even the company admits that.

[Divernan]

35. Takes a HRC supporter to think up "curb stomping kittens"

as an analogy. To the extent "the reporting" unquestioningly regurgitates Debbie's lies, it ain't worth shit. I wrote a very specific and detailed comment to my local newspaper when it did a lazy, shallow, short and one-sided report on this matter. I laid out a chapter and verse defense of Sanders/scathing attack on Debbie/DNC/NGPvendor/Clinton, and no one has disagreed with or challenged my comment in any respect, in the many hours since I posted it.

See, here's the deal. Bernie enjoys an excellent reputation as being honest & ethical. Deb & Hill? PFFFFT! When presented with a choice, the vast majority of people, i.e., everyone but the true believer/superfans, will believe Bernie.

Oh, and as to all those Dem. women HRC keeps claiming as supporters? Just got this message from one of them: "Our local Democratic Women had our Christmas party this week, and there was scoffing about the $500 minimum required to see Bill Clinton. Most of us saw him for free when he campaigned for John Callahan. Besides, it was two weeks before Christmas. Let's see, do I spend $500 for Christmas presents on my family or do I give it to Hillary Clinton? My family, it is." This was from the Bethlehem, PA area, where the Clinton campaign abruptly(24 hours beforehand) canceled Bill's scheduled fundraiser - I figured that had to be either because his health (a quadruple bypass heart patient) couldn't handle the punishing, 3 fundraisers across the state in one day schedule, OR the response was so humiliatingly low.

[Old Codger]

51. The idiots

That run the data servers even admitted that nothing could be dl'd or saved from those files

[Betty Karlson]

108. With or without PUMA, Clinton will probably lose the GE.

And her negative coattails will drag the senate and house into the mire.

Then DWS will blame the left, just like Rahm used to do.

[treestar]

110. But Hillary herself in that position

supported Obama. So you think Bernie will not be that gracious?

[Live and Learn]

3. Yep, to heck with the holidays. All my time and money are going to Bernie.

And I will never forgive the Hillary campaign or some of her asinine supporters for this travesty.

[mountain grammy]

68. Yep. I shopped for my granddaughters today.

Got them a few things, but decided the best gift I could give them is another donation to Bernie.

[Live and Learn]

75. Yes, a future is the best thing we can give the kids.

And a future without Bernie doesn't look too promising.

[aspirant]

6. Is there a difference

when listening to the DNC and union leadership?

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

69. +1

[WillyT]

7. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[KingFlorez]

13. The odds of him winning the nomination have always been long

So it's pretty hard to comprehend why the DNC or Clinton campaign would go out of it's way to sabotage a candidate who is a distant second in most polling.

[madfloridian]

18. Yes, Hillary has been deemed inevitable.

[CoffeeCat]

39. We have a state-by-state nominating process

Bernie is behind only by 9 in IA and ahead in NH.

Bernie has the advantage in the Iowa caucuses because the party faithful, who tend to caucus in high numbers, are wildly progressive in Iowa.

The my delivered Obama; they could easily deliver Bernie.

Hillary's crowds in Iowa are small (200-400); Bernie's last three Iowa rallies garnered 2000, 1450 and 1500. He's just getting started.

And people wonder why this PR stunt was pulled? I don't.

With the final push in Iowa still a couple of weeks away, Sanders could win the Iowa caucuses. Given his crowd sizes. Given the 59 point Iowa poll gain he's made (first Iowa poll taken shows Clinton 60/Sanders .8). All the desperate attempts at debate reduction and media favoritism, he's made incredible gains.

They're attempting to kneecap him by preventing him from campaigning. Take away his voter lists, because of the actions of one person. Bullies. All of them.

We'll win this. These fools just energized the Sanders campaign up a few notches. I just stopped by my local Sandes campaign office and there were people dropping off food, donation, even furniture. The field organizers said that everyone is calling, wanting to help.

You can't abuse half of the Democratic Party while bullying their candidate's campaign, without consequences.

I'm done with the DNC. They'll never get us back. I'll vote for the decent Democrats, when they're running. Never for any DNC darling.

[KingFlorez]

40. If you say so

[chervilant]

61. Many of us

say so. Many, many, many, many of us.

(I wouldn't be so glib in pronouncing that "Hillary will win," if I were you. Too many people associate her with deceit.)

[Nite Owl]

49. I used to donate to the DNC

still get their begging emails. They're like a bad joke.

[Thespian2]

52. Good response...

[BeanMusical]

66. Very well said.

[Ed Suspicious]

42. Perhaps they aren't as long as we are led to believe.

[KingFlorez]

44. Right, because polling is obviously skewed

[Ed Suspicious]

46. Because polling likely democratic voters gives an incomplete picture, but that's an argument for

another thread.

[Hepburn]

43. Rather Nixonesque thinking on the part of HRC and DWS -- Bernie becomes McGovern?

Guess they feared Bernie and now they have created a real monster for themselves. No one believes the bullcrap from the DNC and it is a total backfire for them and Hillary. IMO, could not have happened to a better bunch of DINOs.

JMHO

[KingFlorez]

47. Except there is no reason to go on the offensive against a near non-factor

And second, this entire situation is because Sanders staff accessed data that didn't belong to their campaign. The DNC and Clinton could not have forced them to do that.

[Hepburn]

56. The fact that there was access was the fault of the vendor, not anyone else. n/t

LOL...again, how Nixonesque of Hillary, Debbie and the DNC Coronation Team.

Obviously they felt threatened. Maybe Bernie is not the non-factor as you state.

[stillwaiting]

88. Correct. Which means Sanders is NOT a non-factor. You've figured it out. nt

[Fuddnik]

50. I figured it was only a matter of time before she shot herself in the foot.

But, damn! With a shotgun?

[artislife]

85. I think her grandpa taught her how to shoot it....

you know those grandparents, the hard working American ones....

I swear, all of h and bill's problems are self inflicted. It is like some Shakespearan tragic protagonist.

[Divernan]

86. Shakespeare'd write a tragedy trilogy about the Clintons

Both Hill & Bill's parents were dysfunctional (Bill has yet to take the trouble to meet his older half-sister); then you have Hill & Bill; then you have Chelsea marrying the hedge fund owner/son of two grifters: a convicted felon who stills owes some $10 million to his victims and the woman whose bankruptcy judge found her testimony so unbelievable, her bankruptcy petition was thrown out of court.

[treestar]

91. Yes. It's mere sour grapes

Go out and get more votes instead of complaining about the party that Bernie just joined would be a better way to go about it. Talk about entitled.

[sarge43]

15. Their fear and contempt for grass roots Democrats is heartbreaking.

I expect this from Repugs. I'm ashamed that the DNC would sink to their level.

[madfloridian]

17. The party has disliked grassroots since the late 80s. It's getting worse now.

[arcane1]

28. To me, this shows they are more nervous than I had imagined.

Those million-dollar polls might be telling them things they don't like!

[sarge43]

37. That's my impression, too

This reaction was way excessive to requirement -- if indeed Clinton has a lock on the nomination.

[Nite Owl]

55. My thoughts also

they must fear something like the polls are wrong for Hillary perhaps.
They keep saying that Bernie has been o negative. Haven't seen it.

[jwirr]

73. That is what I am thinking. Interior polls are often more

correct than public ones and like during the McGovern campaign we knew we were losing long before anyone else did.

She has small crowds, a lot less small donors, problems with things like emails and a corrected tax report for years of "mistakes" for the foundation, lies like the one about sniper fire, etc.

[mountain grammy]

70. Yes, heartbreaking.

[glinda]

19. Am reading a variety of Boards and the DNC is suffering a huge blow under Wassermann.

Not good at all. People are talking about not voting AT ALL!

[cwydro]

21. I'm still undecided, but this dust-up is just nasty and stupid.

Wasserman seems dishonest to me. Does she not even care about the party? About winning the election?

I've had no faith in the DNC since the Dean debacle back in the day.

Trump must be laughing his ass off. Smh.

[arcane1]

32. Depends on what "winning" means.

As I said elsewhere, Clinton's biggest donors would prefer a republican to Sanders.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. She's already done irreparable damage to the party. There's no going back from this one.

Obviously, it's what they were after. The party cannot EVER WIN without TRUE Progressives, Millennials, Baby Boomers or Independents. She has finally taken it down. My guess is, The Right Wing Third Way wants to merge with the GOP. It's their only alternative. They want to take the country rightward - off a cliff.

I'm not kissing and making up after this. I do have Principles. If she takes down Bernie and he's not the nominee, I'm done. Forty-two years of being a registered Democrat will come to an end. I promise. I've had more than enough of the DWS, HRH, DNC, WALL ST. and CORPORATE OWNED MSM CORRUPTION.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[madfloridian]

25. They don't seem to want fresh ideas and new progressives in the party.

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. No they don't. They show complete disrespect and disdain for TRUE Progressives, Millennials and

apparently, Independents. Hey, they don't want my vote? I'm fine with that. I don't want to be a member of their corrupt, right wing party. A new Progressive Party will grow from this and it will be HUGE. I'm ready for it.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[arcane1]

29. Conveniently timed as "sane" republicans start to abandon ship.

Funny how that works!

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. I know! It's amazing! n/t

[FloriTexan]

30. Kicking for your first paragraph

!!!

[Chan790]

33. Really.

This just deepened my resolve that the future Democratic party needs to be one devoid of Clintons, Clinton associates, Clinton supporters, DLCers and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. Don't go away mad, Clintonites--but do go away.

At this point, I'd rather Wasserman-Schultz just resigned rather than continued to hold Congressional office or serve the DNC...since she votes like a Republican too damned often and frequently endorses Republicans over candidates of the Democratic party she serves as national chairwoman of, I don't think it would be a great loss for us if she was primaried, districted out of office, or lost reelection.

I'm not going to rest until a whole lot of fake Democrats bound and determined to sink to all-new lows to hand the Democratic party nomination to a fake Democrat like Hillary are former Democrats.

I'm feeling musical so this one is dedicated to Debbie from South Florida.

[Thespian2]

45. K & R!!!

Well said!

We will support the best candidate we have seen in a long, long time...Bernie...

[OilemFirchen]

48. Remarkably, this redounds well on Clinton.

Thus far, she's the only one with clean hands.

If she was in any way complicit then a fuckful of kudos to her for pulling off one of the greatest political maneuvers in modern history.

Masterful!

[billhicks76]

59. :(

Last edited Sat Dec 19, 2015, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)

She is now guaranteed to lose the general if she steals the primary. Good job!

[misterhighwasted]

67. Lol Well ask Bernie about acting criminally and "stealing" stuff

He's got a whole staff of professionals. Stealing & storing someone elses proprietary data is as much ethics as bernie sanders can offer up.
This dirty deal is bernies to own.
No one did it to him. He needs to man-up & stop whining like a 2 yr old.
He gives me the creeps.

[billhicks76]

72. What A Joke

Have you been following this story? Bernies campaign reported the vulnerabilities in the data in October. DNC did nothing. Probably because they were stealing Bernies info. You need to pay closer attention.

[Renew Deal]

102. You know that the Sanders campaign fired a whole bunch of people right?

Hillary is not the one that acted inappropriately and the election is not "stolen".

[PatrynXX]

64. Fairly Sure Hillary and DWS have damaged the DNC beyond repair

and thats why I'm pissed , and that somehow after a 2 month warning she's still playing victim gets me angrier

[LarryNM]

65. Establishments in Both Major Parties are at War

with the Populists elements in their own parties. Don't know what type of majority
or unified populists will emerge, for better or worse, but if this continues then some
wealthy or well-connected individual will emerge and win a Presidential election, probably
as an independent of some sort and perhaps with some House and Senate seats as well.

[SoapBox]

71. K & R your post and agree 100%.

[DUbeornot2be]

74. I'm with you.

The Hillary camp has hit the board hard with their deflections to the obvious Rovian tactic, but are now getting out ahead of the resulting blowback that is sure to follow. Standard playbook procedure as far as I can tell. They know what's coming with the likely investigation and audit. but of course Hillary is old hat at all that. Isn't that one of her strengths? She knows just how to play the victim.

Bernie's camp reported the problem months ago. They've reported seeing recurring happenings of the downed "firewall"... so they decide to record it for verification. Now in order for the Sanders camp to regain access to their own info dws says prove that any evidence of her obviously faulty system is destroyed. Yes, in this hypothetical situation Bernie is being blackmailed to destroy evidence of their inadequate handling of data from millions of voters.

hrc camp responds to question of whether or not they also accessed info and come back with a very shifty answer that I can't find again but it was akin to not denying having accessed it, but to not having accessed the info the way the Sanders team did.

I can only assume he means that they didn't leave their fingerprints behind for people to see... yeah, we didn't access it 'that' way...

my guess is that Bernie(the smartest guy in the room) has got this under control. He'll soon exposed the earlier theft of his info on the national debate stage, possibly having the documents in hand.

dws and hrc are done. I can sleep better tonight knowing that this "scandal" is just what the people need to see the real Bernie Sanders on the tee vee for once...

[Uncle Joe]

95. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.

[Renew Deal]

101. Your guy got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and you're upset that he got caught

If roles were reversed we'd be seeing post after post about how terrible Hillary and the DNC is.

[Jarqui]

103. The damage is done

Before this, I fully and sincerely intended to fight my heart out for her because of all the work we had done for Obama. Now, I do not see much difference between her organization and the GOP. Truly. Both are deeply dishonest and unethical which has always been a big hang up with me and politicians.

Over the last few days, they've stooped to smearing an honest man with an activity it appears they did themselves last October .. and the DNC that the Clinton campaign obviously owns was clearly onside and complicit with this. The whole thing is corrupt and I simply cannot bring myself to support that. After 53 years of supporting Democratic causes all this has done is to convince me I've largely been wasting my time supporting this party. It tough enough for someone in Bernie's position to compete. But this: your party's National Committee is the pocket of one of the candidates? That's too much. Can't handle it. Hardly anyone of note is saying anything about it.

The damage is indeed done. I will not support Hillary Clinton. No chance. Too many lies. Too much deceit. Enough.

[Stuart G]

106. We need to support whoever is nominated, in my opinion=2 Words, Supreme Court

I am for Bernie, but I will support Hillary, even with the lies and whatever else you have said.

I will not take a stand so early on this issue that indeed could greatly affect the entire nation.

Wrong Supreme Court appointments could change this country for the "more evil"..
The clowns would appoint idiots who would overturn Roe v Wade..and Brown vs Bd of Ed.

The clowns did appoint idiots who made corporations ..people..???????????????????????

No.... I will support Hillary even though there issues...serious issues....so what????

Here is the.. most serious issue for me

I care more about Roe v Wade .... and Hillary will appoint supporters of Roe v Wade and woman's right to choose, and Trump and the rest of the idiots will not support a woman's right to choose....

Yes, there are "issues"...but but other "issues" are more important..and remember..Supreme Court appointments are for a lifetime...
Clarance Thomas is going to be there for a while...who needs another Clarance Thomas?

[Jarqui]

111. Short term, maybe losing the Supreme Court, Obamacare & Roe v Wade

and having a racist asshole as president would be good for the country.

Sounds like an awful nightmare. Short term, it will be. But the country still seems to need a wake up call. Maybe having to live through a good horror like that will wake it up and stiffen it's resolve to demand better. Unfortunately, the hangover from the nightmare of George W Bush didn't last long enough. Maybe Obama deserves some credit there. I could easily handle another 8 years of Barack.

Quite frankly, I'm in the minority on the Clinton years. In 1989, I debated NAFTA in a Bush Sr think tank and those against NAFTA won that debate handily. Bush Sr seemed to buy in and cooled to NAFTA. We knew what it was going to do to the manufacturing sector and jobs, etc. And so did Bill Clinton. I think the country will be paying for that for generations. It was short term glee for the top of corporations and the economy and long term misery for the rest of Americans. We knew in the 80s what was going to happen with NAFTA. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Now all the industrial engineering know how and manufacturing ability - where about 50% of manufacturing innovation comes from belong to other countries along with those jobs - and they got it for next to nothing. Countries create wealth by digging it out of the ground or adding value (commonly by manufacturing/making things). A hunk of America's ability to create value was given away with NAFTA. NAFTA to me is a key part of Bill Clinton's legacy. Bill was a better president than George W - what president wasn't - but because of NAFTA not at the top of my list. And Hillary is no Bill Clinton. I have to believe or hope we can do better but it ain't gonna happen in 2016- the fix seems to be in against Bernie.

The leading contenders for the job are a racist buffoon and a chronic liar 60% of Americans don't trust (for good reason). It's just absurd. I have higher hopes for the person that should be in that job. And I think Hillary's chances are vastly overestimated - I think there's a good chance the GOP are just sitting in the weeds and going to carve her up after she's nominated.

Maybe a new third party is an answer. I'm not sure. All I know is I'm very pissed off and Clinton v Trump (or any of the other 12 GOP contenders) isn't much of a choice to me. Jill Stein's starting to look good in my angry and frustrated state. I'll fight for liberal causes but I cannot embrace a Democratic Party that stands by with it's hands in it's pocket when something like what has happened with Bernie goes down. That's wrong, wrong and wrong.

[treestar]

116. I don't want to lose the ACA

that would affect me personally very negatively. And I'm sure nobody here wants to give up Roe v. Wade. Though even the Republicans can't change that. But they are at state level very eager to try. Not sure anyone would agree that a racist President would be good for the country.

[Jarqui]

117. Short term, a racist like Trump would be awful

He'd get a bunch of people killed domestically and abroad. I obviously don't want that.

But I think Hillary is likely to try to prove she can be a commander in chief that can send troops into a war. She does not have a good record when it comes to judgement. She has an unprincipled weather vane for a rudder - look at her nearly endless list of flip-flops. I think those characteristics are just as likely to get a bunch of Americans killed too. Hillary is not a great thinker (unlike Obama for example) - she doesn't think stuff through and does not surround herself with people that do. Like Trump, she just reacts - and that can kill people.

Roe V Wade ... hate to see that overturned too but people will find ways to get abortions. They always have. And when it's taken away, it will cause more folks to sit up and realize what they've lost and what is going on.

Ditto for Obamacare - currently saving about 16,000 or more American lives per year. I worked so hard for that one. Take it away and more folks will get pissed off and hopefully press for single payer and Bernie's words "health care is a right not a privilege".

Demographics are shifting. Being oppressed by the oligarchy of rich white racists is going to come to an end in the not too distant future. Gerrymandering and Koch Citizen United money are some of their last clutches to power but they cannot stem the tide of change that's inevitable. All they can do is just delay it some.