In 2006, Bernie Sanders Voted In Support Of An Immigration Conspiracy Theory

[seabeyond]

For Sanders, the amendment is another in a string of past votes that aren’t quite in line with the exact progressive priorities of 2015. Much like past positions on guns that the senator has had to navigate this year, his immigration positions have at times posed some challenges with the new Democratic base and the party’s priorities. He voted against the 2007 immigration bill backed by most Democrats on Capitol Hill and Latino groups (as well as the Bush administration then in the White House) but opposed by many in Sanders’s organized labor base. Sanders supported the comprehensive immigration bill that failed in Congress in 2013. Immigration is now a central part of his campaign — last month he released a detailed proposal includes most of what immigration advocates are seeking this cycle.

And just as with guns — Sanders advocated for things like assault weapons bans while also voting against some Democratic-backed legislation — he supported many of the key goals of immigration advocates in 2007 such as the pathway to citizenship. But in the end, Sanders voted against the overall immigration bill.

The 2006 vote is a bit different. The amendment was meant to protect the Minutemen, and only concerned the southern border of the United States. A short floor debate over the amendment took place on June 6, 2006. Republican backers of the amendment spoke of “the total lawlessness of people coming illegally over the border at night” and how the Minutmen — “definitely not politically correct in Washington, D.C.,” Kingston, the Republican sponsor said — “filled a void which the government was unable to fill.”

*

“One thing that is nice about a guy like that, he’s really philosophically true. He’s kind of like Ron Paul, you couldn’t get him off his belief system,” Kingston said. “He was pretty true to what he believed in. He would kind of jump in and out of various issues — he wasn’t just a dependable liberal yes vote any more than a Ron Paul would be a dependable conservative no vote.”

*

Still, the amendment vote wasn’t a very important part of that debate. It got very little press coverage when it passed. The Southern Poverty Law Center condemned it in one piece, with top SPLC official Mark Potok saying it “sounds like another paranoid conspiracy theory of the Minutemen” in one California newspaper. Most other stories mentioned it near the bottom of stories about legislative wrangling between the Republican House and the Democratically-controlled Senate. Even the most fervent supporters of the Minutemen at the time didn’t find memories of it close to hand.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/in-2006-bernie-sanders-voted-in-support-of-an-immigration-co#.koPzN9DRN

[MaggieD]

1. Ugh

The more I learn about Bernie the less I like him.

[djean111]

3. I know exactly how you feel - I supported Hillary in 2008, and now that I know so much

more about her, I don't like her for candidate AT ALL.

[MaggieD]

4. Sad that you've bought into...

... the right wing attack machine.

[djean111]

5. No, I have not. Just internet searches.

She said what she said, she did what she did. All out there.
We all feel differently about issues. You should accept that, instead of flinging that fatuous RW attack thingy.

[MaggieD]

6. I have to hand it to rethugs

They are pretty damn good at what they do. I just never thought actual liberals would buy into it.

[djean111]

7. Um, you think they uploaded a lot of fake Hillary stuff up onto the internet?

Really? That's pretty sad.

[MaggieD]

8. Yep. Sure do.

[djean111]

12. That is the saddest conspiracy theory I have heard in a long, long, time.

'bye.

[seabeyond]

10. I was an Obama supporter and was never a great Clinton supporter. After educating myself on lies

that have floated around the last two decades, I feel much better supporting her.

[morningfog]

53. Glad to see you will be on vacation from DU from now until after the Nevada caucus!

Couldn't happen to a more deserving poster. Enjoy your time off!

[artislife]

55. You just made my day!

[kath]

66. Wow - just got onto DU and saw this. really makes my day as well.

Until feb 24 or so

[Purveyor]

60. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Thu Dec 10, 2015, 09:21 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Glad to see you will be on vacation from DU from now until after the Nevada caucus!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=890960

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Call outs and taunting duers is a violation of tos.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Dec 10, 2015, 09:25 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A rather gentle tease imho, but it does seem to cross the line to violate tos.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
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Explanation: Unexceptional snark in another unexceptionally nasty thread.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[morningfog]

62. Lol. Thanks for sharing the results.

[Purveyor]

71. I always try to provide the results of a jury when the 'target' wouldn't be aware being juried

otherwise.

[Cha]

116. I can imagine the truth from that poster bothers you so much you want her Censored and Gone.

[morningfog]

118. Lol! Truth, that us funny.

I will miss calling out her lies and hypocrisy.

[Warren Stupidity]

121. FYI.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:23 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Lol! Truth, that us funny.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=892999

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

MaggieD is a long time Du'er that has greatly contributed to both DU and the Democratic party and progressive ideas. Right now, there is a battle from two camp with candidates we are fighting for. That does not make MaggieD any less a Democrat or a member of DU. Sanders supporter weigh about 85% of DU. Than can easily get hides on good standing members. That is what happened to MaggieD. She is still a member in good standing and it is against TOS to post hurtful personal attacks like these on DU. Further, MaggieD has been silenced and can not even stand up for herself or respond. Please hide. This is not right.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 11, 2015, 08:31 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I weeps.
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Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry, but I agree with the post. I read DU every day, and the hidden poster's contributions are often questionable. Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the Alerter. Hide this garbage.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Cannot reply to automated messages

[morningfog]

122. Another good jury vote.

There is only one reason Maggie gets frequent time outs, and it has nothing to do with her alleged "support" of Hillary.

[seabeyond]

128. So, it is good calling some liars, and not so ok calling other liars? Gotcha.

[morningfog]

130. I have no idea where you came up with that. If that is your position, so be it.

It is fine to call posters who intentionally post lies, liars, in my opinion.

[seaglass]

136. Juror 5 has no integrity and should have excused him/herself from the jury. That's the problem

with juries and why no one trusts them to be fair. It's mob rule, not justice.

[morningfog]

137. Juror 5 got it right.

[seaglass]

138. Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[morningfog]

139. Oh please. It gets fucking old people trying to play the victim on

a message board. They gets hides, not because boogey man mob rule, but because they are jerks. It is that simple.

[seaglass]

141. I don't see anyone playing victim. I do see 2 jurors that let their personal opinion of the

poster you were rude to impact their vote. Being a juror is not about whether they agree or disagree with your post, it's about whether your post violated community standards.

[morningfog]

142. It is often about who had a history of disrupting.

[Ferd Berfel]

140. Funny, that's the OPPOSITE of what happens for MOST people

and the Polls show it, for years.

Interesting discrepancy

[RandySF]

2. K&R

[Autumn]

9. Along with, what was it? 76 other democrats

seabeyond* this is too funny

[seabeyond]

11. So, I will not hear from you again about the 82 Democrats voting yes on Iraq resolution, right?

[Autumn]

15. How many wars started after that this vote that you are all clinging to sea*?

How many Americans died from this vote? How many Iraqis died from this vote? When you find a number of the deaths and destruction resulting from this vote get back to me I'll wait

[seabeyond]

16. Ah, so you are sticking to your position even in the face of it. Meh.

[Autumn]

19. Go right on ahead and post the end results of these two “yea” votes by the

different candidates sea* since you seem to feel they are much the same. Who did Hillary protect with her vote?

[seabeyond]

32. You can project however you like.

[Autumn]

35. So no answer sea*? I guess we are done with the discussion.

[seabeyond]

39. Autumn*, I really do not get what you are going on about. But, I am at work and

I am bowing out of this thread. So, Autumn*, figure whatever you like.

Lol.

[Matariki]

92. Actually she makes a very good point in terms of death toll.

And actually important detail.

[seabeyond]

93. It is all about the number? Here is the relevance to social issues. It is not all about the number.

[Matariki]

96. It's about the consequence of the vote

You were the one who compared it to the Iraq war vote.

[seabeyond]

99. What you are not acknowledging is that for you, the consequence is measured directly in lost lives.

[Matariki]

108. Sure. I don't get what you're saying.

Lost lives seems like something people in congress ought to keep in mind when casting votes. Particularly mass casualties in wars founded on (what should have been obvious) lies.

Versus a vote to not provide intelligence on United States citizens to a foreign government. Which is how that vote was framed.

[NCTraveler]

21. How many bombs were dropped after....

Sanders yeah vote on the Iraq Liberation Act? How many wars were started within the five years after his yeah vote on the Iraq Liberation Act? How many times did Bush reference the Iraq Liberation Act as justification for his power?

[Autumn]

26. You may want to start an OP about that vote, I don't remember Bill Clinton unleashing

shock and awe on Iraq and the American people after that vote. This is a separate conversation about the IWR vote brought up by another poster.

[Vattel]

33. That vote didn't authorize war. The ILA explicitly said that it wasn't an authorization

for the use of military force.

[NCTraveler]

34. So the multiple days of bombing in Iraq right after the vote was just strange timing.

You just can't be serious.

[Vattel]

44. You are not making sense. The ILA didn't authorize bombing. That is just a fact.

[NCTraveler]

47. Reality goes against what you are saying. Completely.

Yeah, it called for regime change using flowers.

[Vattel]

49. Here, have a dose of reality:

From the text of the ILA: "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize or otherwise speak to the use of United States Armed Forces (except as provided in section 4(a)(2)) in carrying out this Act."

Section 4(a)(2) says: "The President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations."

[lunamagica]

63. At least two

On May 30, 2009, Raul Flores, Jr., 29, and his daughter, Brisenia Ylianna Flores,[1] 9, of Arivaca, Arizona, were murdered at home during a robbery by Shawna Forde, Jason Eugene Bush, and Albert Gaxiola, who were convicted of the murders.[2]

Both Raul Flores and his daughter, Brisenia, were born in the United States and were thus American citizens as is Gina Gonzalez, the victims' wife and mother who survived the attack.[3]

Brisenia was a third-grade student at the Sopori Elementary School in Amado, Arizona at the time of her death.[4]

During the trial, jurors were told that Forde and her accomplices gained entry to the Flores home by claiming they were officials looking for fugitives and that the suspects had the expectation of finding money and drugs that could be sold to finance Forde's militia group, the "Minutemen American Defense", which patrolled Arizona's border with Mexico. When they found no drugs, the intruders took jewelry but, prosecutors said, not before fatally shooting the child and her father.[5]

Gina Marie Gonzalez, 31, wife of Raul Flores and mother of Brisenia, in the home during the attack was shot three times. She survived because she pretended to be dead. When the assailants left the home, Gonzalez called 911 emergency services and armed herself with her husband's handgun. While Gonzalez was on the phone, the assailants re-entered the home; Gonzalez fired the gun, wounding Bush. The killers then fled. Gonzalez identified two men, one white, the other Latino, and a white woman as the attackers. Gonzales said Bush, who is white, had murdered her daughter and husband.

An early exchange within the 911 call was recorded as follows:

Gonzalez: "They shot me and I pretended like I was dead. My daughter was crying. They shot her, too.
Operator: "Are they still there, the people who, that shot them?"
Gonzalez: "They're coming back in! They're coming back in!" (Gunfire.)[6]

[Autumn]

73. During a robbery

[lunamagica]

77. Ah, during a robbery. That makes it all right

Are you joking?

Yes, during a robbery, while committing a crime.

No matter how you want to spin it, there people were CRIMINALS, MURDERERS.

[Autumn]

79. Do you have a link showing that these murders were related to the bill that Bernie voted on?

Of course there are CRIMINALS, and MURDERERS but that bill did not give them permission or the go ahead to murder anyone during a robbery.

[lunamagica]

81. The protection allowed by this bill allowed for this to happen

Last edited Thu Dec 10, 2015, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Really, are you defending this vote? This is a militant, racist group of vigilantes.

Do you approve that they were protected?

[Autumn]

84. I don't know enough about the bill. What I know is Bernie and 76 other democrats voted for it.

At that time it was Democratically-controlled Senate if I remember correctly so if they had not wanted it to pass I imagine it wouldn't have passed.

[lunamagica]

85. Not an acceptable excuse

From Daly Kos:

Any guesses to which way Bernie Sanders, then a member of the US House, voted? That's right, he voted YES to pass this amendment (vote tally from Congressional record).

Now, to be sure, the amendment passed with 293 votes, including those of 69 Democrats. But none of them is claiming the mantle of a progressive savior pushing the party to the Left. Some of those Democrats were too afraid to vote otherwise given Bush's victory in 2004, and others were too conservative. But Bernie Sanders and his supporters tell us that he is a profile in courage and the liberal hope in the race.

-cut-

This is the great hope of liberals? This is the man liberals think should be our answer to gun violence's devastating impact on America's communities of color and to the racist right wing militia movement in our country?

[Autumn]

86. I'm not giving you an excuse. Feel free to dislike Bernie all you want, I don't consider

him to be the great hope of liberals, I just prefer him a 1000 times more than I do Hillary. Anyway, this conversation is going in circles and I'm going out to dinner so I'm done here.

[Vattel]

113. Bullshit. The amendment in question had nothing to do with these murders.

Quit smearing.

[merrily]

119. Link? And why did you omit it?

[lunamagica]

125. Link. I thought I had included it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Raul_and_Brisenia_Flores

Another link:

http://www.alternet.org/story/140745/armed_radical_'minutemen'_kill_father_and_9-year-old_daughter_in_anti-immigrant_hate

[treestar]

38. very good catch

on the inconsistency there. They make Hillary 100% responsible for the War in Iraq, so Bernie is 100% in support of the minutemen's crazy argument.

[Cha]

117. Besides who cares about the other Dems voting to Protect the Minute Men.. BS is the one who's

suppose to be perfect.

[seabeyond]

13. Laugh it up about voting to protect minutemen, a hate group. Hurts me ... Not.

[lunamagica]

65. Murderers. Child killers. Hilarious. eom

[seabeyond]

69. That we can decry one vote and shrug our shoulders with another vote is oddity itself. Nt.

[Armstead]

17. Yes he's anti-immigrant, pro-gun, racist, hates women and believes cute kittens should be deported

So tiresome

[seabeyond]

18. Weak way of arguing and does not deny he voted to protect minutemen. That is the discussion. Nt.

[Armstead]

22. Only way to respond to the blanket crap of some people

As to the meme of the day about (several posts simultaneous on the same damn subject) I don't know the specifics of his voite on that. I might disagree with Sanders reasons for that. Maybe not.

But on balance, and overall Sanders is just as supportive of the same overall immigration goals as Clinton, O'Malley and other Democrats.

The differences are on certain specific aspects....Most notably,. he didn't want to encourage employers to exploit special "guest-worker" visas as a form of domestic outsourcing by replacing American workers with foreign "guest workers."....One can agree or disagree with his position on the but it does NOT mean he is anti immigrant or against positive immigration reform.

Crap like this is deliberately using individual trees to obscure the forest.

[seabeyond]

28. It was a vote he made. Like it or not, that is all the OP is. About a vote Sanders made. Nt.

[Armstead]

29. It is takling a single, meaningless vote to obscure trhe overall issue of immigration

Forests and trees.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Well your ally there is now on vacay yet again and I note you have not managed to respond to my

post about who also voted for this and those who did not even bother to cast a vote at all. So how is this a discussion at all? Seems more like shit flinging and evasion to me.

[kath]

67. Anyone have the jury results that led to that vacay?

[MeNMyVolt]

78. It was a bullshit hide, and you know it. N FN T

[NCTraveler]

23. Sanders

anti-immigrant - depends on the economic situation
pro-gun - depends on the group he is talking to
racist - no
hates women - no
believes cute kittens should be deported - we will need to check into the economic consequences, same as he does with immigrants.

[Armstead]

27. Sanders

pro-gun - It is not a question of pro gun or anti gun. That's simplistic nonsense. Both Sanders and Clinton are in favor of sensible gun control....Remember when Clinton was being Annie Oakley when she thought that was politically expedient. Even now, she would say that she is in favor of law-abiding, sane people having the right to own guns. There are shades of diffeerence in some specific aspects, and in current rhetoric -- but not much

racist - no
hates women - no

believes cute kittens should be deported - Cute kittens are a threat to the Internet. They must be stopped.

[kath]

64. Is seabeyond* the one who has suddenly learned how to use capital letters and punctuation,

and writes with a totally different style? I have been wondering what's up with that..

[bigtree]

90. 'suddenly learned how to use capital letters'

...are you really talking about an adult on this forum like this?

That isn't even politics; it's just meanness.

[seabeyond]

94. They seem to have their code* to insult me. Isn't that special. I haven't seen you around much.

But then, I haven't been around much either. Good to see you.

[bigtree]

95. good to see you, too, seabeyond

...this new progressiveness from many here in defense of Sanders comes with an amazing intolerance of dissent and disagreement with the politician they're supporting.

[demmiblue]

20. Lol *

[AgingAmerican]

24. Trying to strike oil in an outhouse pit

[seabeyond]

30. Educating on votes candidates make. We have no problem talking about other candidate votes.

[cosmicone]

25. I thought we were not supposed to bring up Bernie's record here

Like, you know, safe-harbor to gun manufacturers, funding for F-35s , Brady Bill opposition, no path to citizenship for immigrants and repeated funding of wars and stuff..

[seabeyond]

31. From the replies, it seems to exactly be the issue. I do not get why we cannot post about candidate

votes. I do not cotton to people getting a hide simply because they show a candidates vote. This site and article seems ot be pure enough to make it on Du. I do think we should be aware of votes. It does not have to be the end of the world, and there might be reasons for votes. I am certainly capable at looking at the grey in a decision to vote any one way.

[Armstead]

100. You have every right to post it....Just as others have the right to argue with you about it

[seabeyond]

102. Read the thread. They are not talking about the vote, are they? They are talking/insulting me.

But, that is not the point. I wrote that because twice the OP on this issue has been hidden, in the past. One OP was hidden just last night. Hence, feeling the need to post it myself. Because yes, surely we can post about one of Sanders votes.

[Armstead]

104. Well, we all get insulted plenty when we hit nerves

I won't defend personal insults...but criticism and insults is a murkly area to define.

One reason Sanders supports (including myself) get riled up about posts like this is because they distort his overall record and values and goals.

It implies because he made a bad vote (for reasons I do not know) on a trivial issue he is a right wing anti immigrant bigot, like Tom Tracedo or something. When overall he has been as supportive -- and in some ways more supportive of -- the rights of immigrants and the goal of meaningful reform as Clinton or anyone.

[seabeyond]

106. Some do not see voting for minute men as trivial. Nt.

[Armstead]

109. Compared to his overall record it is one small trivial vote

If he consistently voted like a Republican on immigration issues, for the same reasons as Republcans, you'd have a point,. But he doesn't.

[seabeyond]

110. You and I do not totally agree on how you laid out the argument. But, I am done and I am not

getting into it. I would like to hear his explanation if you come across anything. I do know how to listen. It just is not trivial in my view, and based on the bigger picture, that I see.

[Cha]

59. Sea didn't get the warning and went ahead and did it.. Bad sea!

[workinclasszero]

75. shhhh

Speaking the truth about....certain unnameable candidates...can get you a hide real fast here on the Bernie Underground

[Alfresco]

36. Undisputed Fact - Keep Calm and Own It

[Bluenorthwest]

37. 76 Democrats also "Voted In Support Of An Immigration Conspiracy Theory" then.

Additionally, when presented with a yes or no vote on an Immigration Conspiracy Theory, Debbie Wasserman-Shultz did not even bother to cast a vote. She sat it out. That's how important she felt it was. Same for Maxine Waters of CA, CA being a border State specifically mentioned in the amendment, Waters being a champion of human rights, still Maxine did not cast a vote. Why would that be, why would 76 Democrats vote yes and key Democrats from the entire spectrum of the Party abstain from voting at all if it was really "In Support Of An Immigration Conspiracy Theory"?

If it was what you claim it was, don't you think Debbie should have cast a vote? How about Maxine? What do you think of the 76 Democrats who voted for it? Are you willing to condemn them all right here and now, as you are Bernie Sanders?

[riversedge]

98. And yet it is all Hillary's fault that Bush invaded Irag because she

voted for the resolution along with other Democrats. yup

[William769]

41. Kick & highly recommended!

[Bluenorthwest]

43. So why do you think Debbie Wasserman-Schultz decided to abstain from voting either way?

Maxine Waters did the same, cast no vote. 76 Democrats voted for it, including many progressive Democrats. If the OP's characterization of the amendment was accurate, the 76 'Voted In Support Of An Immigration Conspiracy Theory' while Debbie and Maxine looked at such a conspiracy theory and felt it was not even worth voting against. That is very hard to believe.

[99Forever]

42. Ahh. Another lameass attempt to smear, bucket o'fail OP.

Isn't that special?

Bless your heart.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. So why did Debbie Wasserman Shultz abstain from such an important vote? Why did so many Democrats

vote for this if it was the horror you claim? Why did Maxine Waters join DWS in not voting one way or the other? How could they be apathetic about such a thing?

[Vattel]

46. Sanders immigration reform plan is the best I have ever seen.

Edited to add:

Characterizing Sanders' vote as a vote in support of a conspiracy theory is very dishonest. There is no indication at all that Sanders had any particular opinion on whether Mexican officials were being tipped off by US officials about the location of Minuteman patrols. The vote was simply a vote against such a policy being implemented.

That being said, I would have voted NO. The Minutemen group is horrible and I would tip off Mexican officials about their whereabouts if I had the opportunity to do so. I wouldn't lift a finger to help the minutemen in any way. So I agree that Sanders' vote was a bad one.

But I still think that Sanders is way better on immigration than Clinton. His plan is incredibly good--way better than Obama's. He and Clinton agree on a lot, but Clinton has said some vile shit about immigrants and has voted for fences and, last time I checked anyways, still favored punishing undocumented immigrants for illegally crossing borders. She doesn't seem to get that if someone needs to illegally cross a border to feed his or her family, a decent person will illegally cross a border. People shouldn't be punished for behavior that isn't wrong.

[artislife]

56. This vote of his hits my community.

My brother and his girlfriend work in immigration on the helpful side in the LA area. His girlfriend has spent the last few years helping border children, as she is an immigration lawyer working for a nonprofit.

They are both staunch Bernie supporters.

They are both well educated in immigration, they are boomers and yet they are not supporting H at all.

[Vattel]

72. That is awesome that those close to you are so involved in helping border children.

Some day I hope to do more myself in defense of immigrant rights. I am deeply concerned about these issues.

I think Sanders' vote was a mistake, but he is the one I trust most on immigration issues.

[ismnotwasm]

58. Actually I like O'Malley's the best--his is the most comprehensive

Clinton and Sanders' plans are quite similar. All three contain similar elements, which makes me very happy. Now, whoever is the next president will need to push that reform through congress...

[Vattel]

74. I think Sanders' plan is much better than Clinton's. I will have to look at O'Malley's plan again.

I agree that there is a lot of overlap, though.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Your lack of respect for those you address is noted.

You want to order and to preach at others, you refuse to discuss. You characterize and editorialize but when presented with facts you refuse to place them in context. A aggressive manipulation of the truth is never, ever ethical.

[seabeyond]

50. Again the accusation/insult of unethical. All I did was link an article.

I am not obligated to converse.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Until facts entered into it you were calling this a discussion. You started the thread.

I note that you are blasting away at Debbie and Maxine and 76 yes voting Democrats in order to take a swipe at Bernie.
It's the same thing your now on time out pal Maggie was doing with the Crime Bill 'Bernie voted for Mass incarceration' she kept saying. Well he did vote for the crime bill, along with the vast majority of Democrats in the House, 2/3 of the Black Caucus, while just 2 Senate Democrats voted no, the rest like Bernie voted Yes, Ted Kennedy, Biden, Boxer, Kerry, they all 'Voted for Mass Incarceration' because that was Democratic legislation, promoted by Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore and numerous Democratic leaders very strongly.

So no you are not obligated to conduct the discussion you asked to start but I will not stand aside while you smear Democrats tabloid style for the sake of what you think is a momentary win. It's daft. 'Mass incarceration' and 'voted for hate groups' is nasty, Republican style stuff. Note, those who engage in it keep getting time outs because the community rejects that sort of crap.

[bigtree]

97. the 'community?"

...what you're affectionately calling the 'community' is a cliquish majority of Sanders supporters who have used the jury system as a political cudgel.

Nice that you can now use that as some sort of demerit for the targets of that opportunistic abuse of the system, chiding seabeyond. It's as if you're trying to provoke her into one of those hides that you're presenting as some sort of integrity marker.

[Bluenorthwest]

127. So you jump in to attack me personally without even bothering to address the facts I presented

This characterization in lieu of discussion tactic is demonstrative of your inability to counter the facts offered.
I assume if you had a point to make you would make it. I think taking vile shots at 76 Democrats is what Republicans do. I think taking pot shots at other Democratic posters who offer facts about the subject matter is another thing Republicans do.

Jesus said that it is the fruit a tree bears that tells us what that tree is.

[bigtree]

135. yep, you're one of the ones who've 'personally' attacked my friend on this thread

...celebrating the hides and banning of good folks supporting Hillary by a cliquish majority of Sanders-supporting jury members, and playing the victim when confronted about it.

[merrily]

51. Be careful what you wish for. As my niece once noted, the wish fairy has no returns window.

[Scootaloo]

52. One can almost see a pattern there, huh?

[lunamagica]

61. K&R. Thank you for this, Seabeyond. Finally this is getting some attention

That racist Minutemen militia resulted in the murder of two American citizens, including a nine-year old On May 30, 2009, Raul Flores, Jr., 29, and his daughter, Brisenia Ylianna Flores. Horrific murders.

There was absolutely no justification for that YEA vote.

[seabeyond]

68. You are welcome. What bothers me is the fact that we are not allowed a conversation

without a risk for a hide. This is not an attempt to get people to vote for or not vote for another. I do think though, that all candidate's votes should at least be open for conversation. I saw a hide on a previous OP, which made no sense to me.

On a personal note, I cannot understand why any Democrat would vote for the minutemen. Nothing about them is acceptable in my book.

[lunamagica]

70. So called progressives celebrating that a poster is unable to post. Alerting

on OP so that it will be hidden. Maybe they should form another group: "Progressives for censorship"

The funny thing in a pathetic way is that it seems that they really believe that their covering stuff up on DU will keep it from spreading
around. Ridiculous!

The Latin Times picked up the story. Univision and Telemundo are soon to follow. This, combined with his immigration vote won't endear him to Hispanic voters. In this case, the more they know about Sanders, the less there is to like.

There is just not way that they can justify this vote. No way. They are a militant vigilante racist organization. They are murderers.

And Sanders voted to protect them.

[Truprogressive85]

76. Rinse ,Cycle, and repeat

Who's called for children of immigrants to be sent back ?

[Number23]

80. Mild attacks on Sanders get hidden, really nasty, really personal attacks on YOU are left to stand

Even though the TOS of this web site make very clear how people should treat both.

I'm not sure how I felt about this OP but the behavior within this thread is absolutely unhinged.

[seabeyond]

82. I have noticed that. There also seems to be a little CT going on, too, Number23*

Ah ha. , Lol.

[NurseJackie]

87. Agreed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. I am afraid to post lest I get a hide...

If anybody wants to know what I think they can send me a private message.

[bigtree]

91. there's a meanness behind these personal attacks

...made in defense of Sanders on this thread.

It's like dealing with a clique in a junior high school cafeteria.

seabeyond is a strong advocate for progressive ISSUES on this board. Somehow, the politics of defending politicians in this election won't recognize and respect that.

[Number23]

111. We've all been seeing this for months. And the irony is that the nastiest ones are the ones

trying the hardest to pretend that it's actually Clinton supporters that are the root of all the hateful idiocy that blankets this board right now. Like you said, a junior high school clique. And a really low caliber junior high school at that judging by the incredibly poor quality of the attacks and the lack of wits they expose.

These same folks are also the ones that bray the loudest whenever others say this exact behavior is as a massive turn off for many to an exceptional, extraordinary candidate who deserves so much better, or are called out yet again in article after article written about how counter productive far too many Sanders supporters are. I will be so damn glad when the primaries are over.

[seabeyond]

112. I will be so damn glad when the primaries are over. yup. !!! Nt.

[LexVegas]

83. He's unhinged. nt

[Hiraeth]

89. mouse nuts

[blackspade]

101. Yay! Another false comparison post!

The purpose of this post is what? To throw bullshit at a wall and see what sticks?
Pathetic. But entertaining!

[seabeyond]

103. To inform and discuss why Sanders voted this way. I didn't know he voted for the minutemen. Did you?

[blackspade]

105. Was the amendment included in the final legislation?

No. Would it have impacted anything at all? No.
Does it look bad? Yes. But in the end there was and is no long term impact from this vote.
However, I notice that you are attempting to use this admittedly crappy vote as a counter balance to Clinton's IWR vote that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. That is bullshit.

[seabeyond]

107. I am glad to hear some call it a bad vote. Nt.

[joshcryer]

114. Bush was invading with or without the IWR.

He argued that we were still at war with Iraq going on old UN resolutions.

[blackspade]

120. So that is why he pushed so hard for the IWR?

Right.
He needed bipartisan legal cover for an invasion and Clinton, among others, gave it to him.
What he 'argued' is irrelevant. He was a lying sack of shit and anyone with any knowledge of him knew it.

[joshcryer]

123. The IWR opened him up to war crimes.

Particularly as it results to torture.

But you're right, he was lying, and Kerry, Clinton and our current VP Biden, knew it, and went for political expiedency.

But they did not "enable" Bush to go to war. He was going to war anyway. That vote was irrelevant. Say it didn't pass or the three politicians we don't want to have voted for it said no (Biden, Kerry, Clinton). He was going in anyway.

If you can give Sanders a pass on this vote (I don't see a problem with the vote) then it should be just as easy to give Kerry, Biden, and Clinton a pass on their vote. It's easy. Take a breath, realize the irrelevancy.

[blackspade]

124. If that makes you feel better about it.

The IWR vote was not irrelevant no matter how you want to spin it.

[Warren Stupidity]

126. unfucking believable

now voting for the Iraq War was a good thing, just like now supporting DOMA was a good thing. People make these arguments and you and I both know that they know the arguments are just fucking stupidly dishonest and pathetically obviously so, and they make them anyway. Are they snickering to themselves while typing?

[seabeyond]

129. Just as voting for minuteman is irrelevant, or voting to enable pedophiles was not as important

as other things in the bill, or support a dead aircraft was expedient.

It is called politics in all the glory and ugliness and to pretend one is above the others is not factually correct.

So one persons unbelievable is another's equally believable.

Sanders has voted for and supported bush's earlier 2002-2003 middle east escalation in all ways, but that one vote, yet, we are expected to not recognize that. Yes, unbelievable.

[Warren Stupidity]

132. you should be ashamed of yourself. You know better.

The purpose of the Iraq War bill was to go to war in iraq. The purpose of the DOMA legislation was to explicitly deny equality to gay people.

Make honest arguments, honestly support your candidate, honestly attack the other candidates, that is all good. You are better than this and you know it.

[seabeyond]

133. I am not ashamed of myself, and yes, I do know better. I am at least honest in how

we chose to process votes from politicians we support. There is nothing wrong in my post. I know exactly what was happening with the Iraq vote, right before the election and a lot of our Democrats up for reelection where their vote would affect a win or a loss at a time we need every Democrat in congress to do their best putting the brakes on Bushco. And the Buscho administration using that to their advantage. I recognized exactly what was happening and the manipulation. I also recognize the manipulation in conversation with those votes today by Sanders and his supporters as he has voted for everything previous and after to fall in line with the rest, while criticizing the Democrats for that one vote, as he sat safely in his seat.

At anytime I will take you on the high road of our politicians every step of the way, being merely politicians and not caricatures of heroes ignoring the raw realities.

But then, this OP is about Sanders supporting minutemen. That counts too. I want to know why, just as we have listened to Clinton's reasoning's along with the other Democrats. I at least will be more fair and balanced in my listening to the reasons.

[joshcryer]

143. Flat out lie.

I didn't say it was a good thing. You are putting words in my post.

I said the vote was not an enabling vote. That Bush was going in anyway.

Next time you want to accuse me of some bullshit falsehoods, please be brave enough to reply directly to me rather than someone else. Talk about snickering.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. 123. The IWR opened him up to war crimes.

Just like DOMA protected the gays from a constitutional amendment. I agree that your claim was a flat out lie.

[joshcryer]

146. It's not the only thing that opens him up to war crimes.

But his lying to the congress is a treasonous offense.

You aren't thinking. Putting bullshit words in my post and doing the bare minimum to shit on another poster.

And to think I thought you were sincere about zappaman regarding the WillyT post, seems your snide attitude, character judging, is simply reserved for people arbitrarily.

[Cha]

115. So has bernie ever explained why he voted to protect The Minute Men?

[Le Taz Hot]

131. SB, you are one of the few

Hillary supporters I don't have on Ignore. You're entertainment value is just too good.

Carry on.

[retrowire]

145. Bernie's response to your attempt at misconstruing him.

“I voted against that piece of legislation because it had guest-worker provisions in it, which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they’re working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they’re thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason. Tom Harkin, a very good friend of Hillary Clinton’s and mine, one of the leading labor advocates, also voted against that.”

LOL TRY HARDER