My criticism of and opposition to Hillary has nothing to do with my support of Bernie

[cali]

Sorry Hillary supporters, but I'm not "flailing" about or "lashing" out because my candidate is losing to her. As I've said repeatedly,I never expected him to beat her. I'm thrilled he's done so well and highlighted issues of vital importance.

My objections to Hillary are firmly rooted in policy and in who I perceive her to be.

But I agree that she's not as awful as the repubs.

[Agschmid]

1. Meta...

Welcome back by the way.

[cali]

2. Thanks, but do explain how this is meta.

[Agschmid]

4. I believe any post which includes "Bernie Supporters" or "Hillary Supporters"

Is usually meta.

It's fine we get to post what we want for the most part.

And I guess in some way I appreciate the acknowledgement that she isn't as bad a Trump.

[berni_mccoy]

6. META META! (unless it's a post by a Hillary Fan)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251887402

[daleanime]

10. There are no democrats supporting Bernie or Hillary....

outside of DU?

[Agschmid]

16. ...

Well to be fair it's mostly Hillary supporters outside DU.

[daleanime]

20. Well, leaving your hopes aside, if this conversation is going on outside of DU....

how could it be Meta?

[Agschmid]

22. *IF*

And that's a big *if*.

I don't think we should kid ourselves here.

[daleanime]

31. So DU is the only place where supporters of both candidates meet?

[Agschmid]

32. It sure seems to be where they return to.

[daleanime]

35. And that's no discussion.....

while they're away?

[Old Codger]

52. Maybe in your outside

But I guarantee, there are plenty of them in my "outside.... " Many many more than I would have thought there would be and I am sure way more than the hill club apparently thinks...Gonna be a huge surprise ...

[daleanime]

53. And I agree.....

but everyone needs some hope.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Well that is one interpretation.

However as GDP is just chock full of such ops it seems to be not a particularly valid one.

We are and should be allowed to discuss all aspects of the primary campaign. That includes the candidates, the candidates supporters, the issues the candidates agree and disagree on, even what we post about all of the above.

[Agschmid]

24. We should be.

I didn't alert, I didn't try to stop discussion...

All I sad was "meta".

[cali]

37. And you are wrong

[jeff47]

9. Then surely you'd post the same thing in threads started by Clinton supporters, right?

Oh wait...you seem to have missed calling out every single one of those as meta. How odd!

[Agschmid]

15. Except your wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=887379

I often call out things when I see it.

I contrary to your belief don't see it all.

[jeff47]

17. Well, post #6 pointed you at another one. Still waiting your call-out. (nt)

[Agschmid]

19. I didn't know my participation was required in every thread.

I guess when your wrong and shown that it's better to double down.

[jeff47]

25. Your claim was you'd call out when you saw them.

Well, now you've seen another one.

If I was claiming your participation was required in every thread, I'd have added a dozen or so other examples where you failed to call out. Including threads you participated in without saying "Meta!!".

Instead, I'm pointing at the one you now know about.

[Agschmid]

26. You are aware you don't run me correct?

[jeff47]

27. Of course. I'm just pointing out an opportunity to not show hypocrisy. If you want to. (nt)

[Agschmid]

29. Already showed it up thread.

[Agschmid]

30. Oh by the way I participated...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=887905

Because nothing is better than fewer voices.

[JaneyVee]

3. Good for you. Everyone give a hand.

[libdem4life]

5. Yep...same here. Issues brought up by an opponent isn't "hate" or "bashing"...either way.

All that matters is the past record of governing, the current views and hopes/plans for the future. Then making a comparison...and pointing it out is OK, too, as this is DU. That's what informed voters do. There isn't a place on the ballot for "Hates Bernie" "Hates Hillary" or whatever.

[Sheepshank]

7. "Sorry...but I'm not "flailing" about or "lashing" out because my candidate is losing to her.."

you may not think you are but you and more importantly much of your Bernie supporters are coming across exactly like that.

[immoderate]

11. What about some appreciation for the "well-behaved" Bernie supporters?

Don't we deserve some recognition?

--imm

[Sheepshank]

12. you are correct, there are many of those out there...wish you were louder n't

[immoderate]

13. So, bring on those appreciation threads...

If we were louder, we'd get accusations.

There are many more of us!

--imm

[MaggieD]

46. Honestly, I would start one, but it would probably get hidden

But I will say here that I DO appreciate the rational Bernie supporters.

[Betty Karlson]

34. That raises the issue of the parameters of your perception.

If any reaction that doesn't confrom to your premises of rationale is likely to come across as flailing or lashing (to you that is) than reactions from people who support Sanders for reasons you don't agree to be valid reasons for support are likely to be perceived (by you) as flailing or lashing.

Paradigms are such fun.

[Sheepshank]

49. and likley your paradigm, of preferrred candidate supporters....

...provides that you see things as more rational than others may see it.

so there is that.

[Betty Karlson]

62. Paradigms refer to thoughts, not supporters.

Your answer doesn't seem to be lexically coherent. Could you explain what you tried to say, please?

[Sheepshank]

64. put downs are not necessary and does not promote or validate your ideas

I spoke to the idea of your paradigm, your thoughts, on supporters.

[Betty Karlson]

66. Allow me to rephrase my argument then:

if you can only see the validity of arguments you can connect to the basic assumptions of your own political position and / or candidate preference,

you are likely to dismiss (mistakenly so) the arguments that are based on basic assumptions other than your own.

I did not express any paradigm of my own, I just wanted to point out that your reaction (#7) speaks of a narrow paradigm.

[daleanime]

8. Well, I think we have a good shoot at it.....

But the important part of this is why most of Bernie's supporters admit quite openly that winning the nomination will be a hard fight. It's not because Hillary is such a great candidate, she's not, it's she's part of the system, and gets all the benefits of it, and he's trying to change it.

Which is why I'm always telling fellow voter, if you like where we are as a nation Hillary is your candidate. If you want to change things come over here and listen to Bernie.

[truedelphi]

60. I like the way that you think! n/t

[NCTraveler]

14. Welcome back!!!

That's awesome!!!!!

[cosmicone]

21. I appreciate this post.

I am thankful that Bernie's important issues - I mean issue, got serious attention and moved Hillary to the left. I'm sure Bernie will be a lightening rod as a senator to make sure that Hillary's feet are held to the fire when it comes to income inequality. He will have a much wider audience and a national stature to be extremely effective in congress.

I also welcome him to the democratic party.

[angrychair]

59. Got to get in that dig in

"Issue" Vs. "Issues".
Sanders has spoken on every major issue in this campaign, your just not listening. That point has been proven many times.

Foreign policy seems to be a favorite:

Bernie Sanders’s refreshingly sane foreign policy
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/25/bernie_sanderss_refreshingly_sane_foreign_policy/


Sanders determined to be heard in foreign policy
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bernie-sanders-determined-heard-foreign-policy/story?id=35295352

Bernie Sanders immigration plan
http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-spells-out-his-immigration-plan/

On ISIS
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8626570

Bernie Sanders is right about Saudi Arabia and Yemen and ISIS
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-right-saudi-arabia-more-focused-con/

Bernie Sanders on war and peace
https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/

Bernie Sanders' foreign policy positions
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-foreign-policy-and-national-security/bernie-sanders-on-foreign-policy/

I've proven your "only one issue" statement wrong in one post. I could have posted every policy statement on every major policy issue but if you really want to know than do a little research.

Your "only one issue" statement is false.

[Android3.14]

23. But I agree that she's not as awful as the most moderate of the repubs

But only just.

[Rebkeh]

28. Bernie can win if we want him to win. n/t

[Sheepshank]

50. there is always that hope

But I can tell you it appears that most don't want him to win.

[Rebkeh]

57. A lot can happen between now and then, don't give up. N/t

[Robbins]

33. Come on

that is pure defeatism conceding clinton as winner.

Highlighting issues is pointless.if clinton wins nomination issues bernie cares about and those who support him will be ignored.

I am not playing the game anymore.Clinton as well as republicans are the problems.

[senz]

39. Agreed.

If Clinton or the Republicans win, the people lose.

If Clinton or the Republicans win, a violent revolution awaits us all sometime in the future.

This election, this primary, counts. So very much hangs in the balance.

If we can't keep this one simple fact in mind until the primary is over, then screw us; we've failed our children, grandchildren, and generations to come.

[KMOD]

42. hyperbole

[senz]

43. asleep

[Cali_Democrat]

67. "If Clinton or the Republicans win, a violent revolution awaits us all"

LOL

[AtomicKitten]

36. On foreign policy, I consider her as awful as the Repubs if not worse.

Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 02:36 PM - Edit history (1)

And I cannot get past that. She has been wrong from her vote on the IWR to scheming with Patraeus and Panetta behind Pres Obama's back to arm the rebels in Syria. As sitting SOS, she harshly criticized Pres Obama in the media, blaming him for the rise of ISIS. The piece de resistance was her pay-for-play scheme as SOS, selling arms to 20 countries on the human rights violation watch list, enriching herself and her so-called foundation in the process.

I once thought Elizabeth Warren would be the stronger candidate, but realized quickly it was Bernie walking the walk that voters are responding to. I admire his courage and his constancy. I also think he could win. I don't believe polling is being accurately conducted but rather is being fine-tuned for a specific result which IMO is propaganda. Mark Penn is working behind the scenes on polling, and discovering that gem validated my concerns.

Bernie polls best against the GOP so I have only minor worries once he reaches the GE. But just as it was with Pres Obama, getting past Hillary will be the contest. She resorted to running ugly last time when the chips were down, and I suspect would double down on that strategy at the first whiff of impending defeat. Plus I don't think she can win the general election.

So, I agree it's an uphill battle for Bernie in the primary with TPTB (MSM, DNC) doing their best to render him invisible. I agree that that is entirely separate from my opinion of Hillary. I beg to differ that she's not as awful as her Republican counterparts; in fact, as I've stated, I think she's as bad or worse on some issues. For instance, I don't believe she will preserve the so-called entitlements. She has already indicated she's soft on regulating the banks and Wall Street. IOW, foreign policy is not the only reason I think she'd be as bad or worse than the Republicans.

Anyhoo, glad you're back.

[senz]

40. +1 Excellent.

Beautifully said, thank you! We need your voice around here, AtomicKitten.

[AtomicKitten]

55. thanks

[WillyT]

38. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. I have full confidence that she will continue to self-destruct.

[senz]

45. A comforting thought to keep in mind

as we work to spread the word about Bernie and his vision for our country.

[CharlotteVale]

44. I think she is as awful in some ways - she's firmly on the side of the 1%.

I realized that when she voted for the Bankruptcy Reform Act and I have seen nothing to change my mind since.

[SHRED]

47. Agreed

But how tough is it to be better than the Repukes?

[brooklynite]

48. Thanks for an honest assessment.

[MineralMan]

54. I have no problem believing that.

It's pretty much the same as your criticism of and opposition to the sitting Democratic President. No surprise, really.

[cali]

56. No, it's nothing like it. And I realize you weren't here in 2008

But I was an early Obama supporter, and I also supported him an 2012. I respect and admire him. I do not have the same sentiments 're Hillary.

Wrong again, min.

[senz]

58. Yep, wrong again.

I am so sick of the Hillary supporter assumption that all Bernie supporters are anti-Obama. Like you, I've had DUers (including some whom I'd never previously encountered) inform me I'm anti-Obama.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I spent nearly two years with OFA working to get Obama re-elected and have defended him and his policies since 2008.

The same uninformed, gullible supporters seem to think Hillary and Obama are friends and allies. I am positive this is false and hope the full story comes out some day.

[ibegurpard]

61. let me put it like this

In 2008 I supported Obama because he wasn't Hillary. In 2015 I support Bernie because he's Bernie AND he's not Hillary.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. It is the responsibility of citizens to scrutinize candidates and policies when voting.

If I find them wanting or unconvincing regarding the policies I care about, I don't vote for them.

I am indifferent to age, gender, race, wealth, what kind of beer they drink, or if they are good at backgammon.

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. John Quincy Adams

[artislife]

65. I haven't been a fan of her politically for years

I wasn't happy when it looked like she was going to waltz into being our nominee without anyone running against her.

Now my objections to her are still the same, if not deeper as I watch her do switchbacks all along the campaign trail, but the voices on this site have made it harder and harder to not cringe when I see that name.

I wish I were as good as you, Cali.

These last two months, especially, had solidified my wish to never have her on a ballot where I see her name as an option.