2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forum"Banned in USA" - Putin explains how Hillary & Obama are to blame for the current mess Iraq & Syria.
First, a disclaimer: Obviously Russia and China are likely playing the imperialist game just like the US is, so there is an element of hypocrisy to what Putin is saying. However, if you focus on his critique of recent US foreign policy in Iraq and Syria, it is accurate, and it is damning - especially for those of us who don't want the US to be playing the imperialist game.
Autumn
(45,106 posts)Can't deny it.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)exactly what they are doing. It's plain old brute-force, thuggish imperialism. They just can't say be public with it, because most people aren't on board with that way of looking at the world anymore.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Autumn
(45,106 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)riversedge
(70,242 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)BootinUp
(47,165 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)The Corporate Republicans say you can't trust the Democrats so ignore what they say.
The Corporate Democrats say you can't trust the Republicans so ignore what they say.
Of course, when the public gets tired of the acrimony, they preach bi-partisanship and the corporate Democrats and corporate Republicans come together to once again screw the American Public.
Divide and conquer.
They divide us by political party, by race, by gender, etc. Think about who beats those drums and what purpose it serves.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)who want to ingratiate themselves to Putin.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Um, remind me why do I want to do that?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)EOM
polly7
(20,582 posts)some of us have watched it all unfold and come to our own conclusions. That Putin is stating the same is irrelevant ..... the facts should be repeated over and over, otherwise ....... how do you even begin to end it all? So much suffering, with the very real prospect of a regional all-out war - yet all some can do is complain about 'Putie love'.
Btw ..... substitute Libya every time he mentions Syria and it would also be accurate. But many believed that was also the right thing to do.
BootinUp
(47,165 posts)fixed it for you.
polly7
(20,582 posts)People afraid of the truth do try so hard though.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)He is a homophobe who has amassed a large fortune while suppressing dissent and letting many of his citizenry live in Third World conditions. He's not my cup of tea.
There are posters here who prefer him to Obama as is their right. I just wish they would cut through the pretense and say so. Pusillanimity is not an attractive feature.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)who are helping us spread democracy in Syria?
What is your opinion on the treatment of gay people by the islamist rebels we are supporting in Syria?
What is your opinion of the treatment of gay people by the islamist forces in the newly liberated Libya?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I would add that Putin came upon his homophobia largely independently and propagates it for domestic consumption. Fundamentalist Muslims have have had 1,400 years of indoctrination.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Would you call the fundamentalist version of sharia law practiced in these countries homophobic or something worse?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)My problem with Putin is I believe he knows better and is doing it for domestic consumption. BTW, democracy in the M E is a chimera, or more precisely a democracy where individual rights are protected is a chimera in the M E.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)if Assad is toppled or steps aside?
How did toppling Saddam or Gadaffi help gay people, women, christians and other religious minorities?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I don't have a clue how to protect minority rights there.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Saddam was good to christians but not so much to shias and kurds, but he did keep the lid on sunni fundamentalists.
polly7
(20,582 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Hobson's Choices abound in the M E.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)the exposure of the twitter comments from the recently self-exiled made that abundantly clear.
Sid
polly7
(20,582 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)typed my reply.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I deliberately avoided that drama but I was flummoxed that someone left because there is more support for Obama than Putin on a board for Democrats.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)the leaders they seek-out to shape their opinions and make their arguments. It's very interesting and quite revealing.
polly7
(20,582 posts)is who talks about it.
IOW - there is none.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.
polly7
(20,582 posts)You really haven't been paying attention to any of the 'go to guys' who've been saying this since it all began?!? Not very concerned at all, are you? I could post a hundred links saying the exact same things he is, I guess you missed all of those threads here. Putin was far more polite and reserved than the regular 'go to guys' who've tried hard to warn us all.
It is 23 years since a holocaust enveloped Iraq, immediately after the first Gulf War, when the US and Britain hijacked the United Nations Security Council and imposed punitive "sanctions" on the Iraqi population - ironically, reinforcing the domestic authority of Saddam Hussein. It was like a medieval siege. Almost everything that sustained a modern state was, in the jargon, "blocked" - from chlorine for making the water supply safe to school pencils, parts for X-ray machines, common painkillers and drugs to combat previously unknown cancers carried in the dust from the southern battlefields contaminated with Depleted Uranium. Just before Christmas 1999, the Department of Trade and Industry in London restricted the export of vaccines meant to protect Iraqi children against diphtheria and yellow fever. Kim Howells, parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Blair government, explained why. "The children's vaccines", he said, "were capable of being used in weapons of mass destruction". The British Government could get away with such an outrage because media reporting of Iraq - much of it manipulated by the Foreign Office - blamed Saddam Hussein for everything.
Under a bogus "humanitarian" Oil for Food Programme, $100 was allotted for each Iraqi to live on for a year. This figure had to pay for the entire society's infrastructure and essential services, such as power and water. "Imagine," the UN Assistant Secretary General, Hans Von Sponeck, told me, "setting that pittance against the lack of clean water, and the fact that the majority of sick people cannot afford treatment, and the sheer trauma of getting from day to day, and you have a glimpse of the nightmare. And make no mistake, this is deliberate. I have not in the past wanted to use the word genocide, but now it is unavoidable." Disgusted, Von Sponeck resigned as UN Humanitarian Co-ordinator in Iraq. His predecessor, Denis Halliday, an equally distinguished senior UN official, had also resigned. "I was instructed," Halliday said, "to implement a policy that satisfies the definition of genocide: a deliberate policy that has effectively killed well over a million individuals, children and adults."
A study by the United Nations Children's Fund, Unicef, found that between 1991 and 1998, the height of the blockade, there were 500,000 "excess" deaths of Iraqi infants under the age of five. An American TV reporter put this to Madeleine Albright, US Ambassador to the United Nations, asking her, "Is the price worth it?" Albright replied, "We think the price is worth it."
From Pol Pot to ISIS: The blood never dried
16 November 2015
John Pilger
http://johnpilger.com/articles/from-pol-pot-to-isis-the-blood-never-dried
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016137697
By Vijay Prashad
Source: open democracy
November 22, 2015
Where did these ISIS attackers come from? The temptation is to blame religion or race, to take the eye off more substantial areas of investigation. Amnesia is the order of the day. Each terror attack on the west resets the clock. No-one must pay attention to the western and Saudi-backed World Muslim League, whose job was to destroy the forces of secular nationalism and communism in the Arab world in the 1960s and 1970s. All those who were on the good side of history fell to the sword, destroyed as anti-Islamic in order to protect the Gulf Arab emirates and the Saudi kingdom as well as western interests in oil and power.
We must not mention the western and Saudi assault on Afghanistan in the 1970s, before the Soviet intervention, to cut down that nations communist republic. No one should talk about the creation of the mujahideen, whose core contained a brutal kernel that exploded into al-Qaeda. Why make so much of the wars on Iraq and then on Libya and Syria, which wrecked states and turned them like Afghanistan into playgrounds for the jihadis, children of the Cold War?
Disbelief will greet those who remind us of western violence, from the aerial bombardment of Libya in 1911 to the bombing of Libya in 2011 untold numbers dead; it was not war, wrote a journalist in 1911, it was butchery. Few will go to their shelves and pull out Leila Sebbars La Seine était rouge, a searing novel about the French governments murder of hundreds of pro-Algerian protesters in Paris in October 1961.
You will not ask who influenced these young men, sanctified by their governments to go fight in a war elsewhere and then inspired by Saudi-funded clerics who told them not only to fight in Syria but to go home and create mayhem? You will think all this is made up, that I want to justify the massacres.
There is no justification here. There is only the recitation of a pitiless history that is buried under official clichés.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016136050
by William Blum / November 3rd, 2015
Are you confused by the Middle East? Here are some things you should know. (But youll probably still be confused.)
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Apparently, so do most Democrats. Bernie is NOT going to be the nominee. If he can't convince DEMOCRATS to support him, how the hell can he be influential in anything else he attempts? I'm sorry, and I know this is upsetting to his supporters, but that's just the way it is.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Maybe you missed that in all your 'concern'.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)distract from the horror that's happening, so you can play the victim.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)to the ME, NA and those everywhere suffering from terrorist attacks.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Yeah, I kinda figured you didn't vote here. That shouldn't stop you from also feeling sympathy for Bernie.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Nah ....... I'm much more interested in the message of how it got started - those same facts that have been posted here for months. If your candidate or anyone else's was part of creating the horror - I can see why they'd be so quick to blame anyone else for it. I can't really blame you for that.
But why would I feel sympathy for Bernie - from all I've read, he's fantastic and is doing great! He reminds me of Tommy Douglas up here - hated by many, including doctors, and feared by all those who stood to lose with his revolutionary health-care change.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I guess that all depends on how one measures success. Not being the nominee is not a good measure of success. Using Putin as a proxy is a sign of weakness.
polly7
(20,582 posts)BootinUp
(47,165 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I think we're near the end of this exchange. Maybe there's some online poll or hashtag war that would be a more productive use of your time. This certainly is a waste of your time, and mine.
polly7
(20,582 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Oh, dear. So silly. Criticizing the use Putin as a proxy to attack Hillary is not the same as someone "not caring" about "people suffering". An absolutely absurd assertion, and it's a type of argument that suggests a position of weakness. This exchange is wasting your time, and mine. But most importantly, mine.
You may have the last word. Make Shirley proud.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It's all about shameless partisan hackery for you.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)That anyone feels the need to use Putin as their proxy attack-dog speaks for itself.
Here's a photo of Putin that his admirers may enjoy:
Isn't he dreamy?
polly7
(20,582 posts)How about these, aren't they dreamy? This is the result of what you're having so much fun! laughing off:
Hepburn
(21,054 posts)...to do the wrong thing.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and so do I!
polly7
(20,582 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I know you didn't mean that to be funny, but it is.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)I think she could have a place in a Sanders cabinet maybe. And yes maybe President some day.
She's also doing Obama a favor by bringing this message out because he needs the truth out there to be able to resist the war hawks who want to see us in a conflict with Russia and Iran.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)judging by some of the comments on this thread.
It does expose those posters however as narrow. As though they don't read newspapers or anything out of their comfort zone.
SMH
I agree with swampg8tr that Gabbard has the right stuff to be a future presidential candidate (and maybe take the office as well)
Thanks for posting that
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Response to leftofcool (Reply #24)
Cheese Sandwich This message was self-deleted by its author.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)who are helping us spread democracy in Syria?
What is your opinion on the treatment of gay people by the islamist rebels we are supporting in Syria?
What is your opinion of the treatment of gay people by the islamist forces in the newly liberated Libya?
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)But go ahead, cover your ears.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
reformist2
(9,841 posts)BootinUp
(47,165 posts)people. That is the most closed minded simplistic view of the situation that one can express.
Cayenne
(480 posts)Who else is missing?
BootinUp
(47,165 posts)of intelligent discussion on the issue.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)MattSh
(3,714 posts)Nobody gives Putin legitimacy except the Russian people.
dsc
(52,162 posts)has the gall to complain about the use of Stormfront. Putin is Stormfront on steroids.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)dsc
(52,162 posts)Putin is pretty much Hitler in the mid 1930's but you apparently don't care enough about gays to bother to know that.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)How did they fare after Saddam and Gadaffi were toppled?
Do you prefer islamist regimes?
dsc
(52,162 posts)and if they make decisions I don't like then I can boycott their countries. The only ME country that treats gays well is Israel which has its own issues with Palestinians. It is also the only democracy, go figure.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)It will be islamist.
You can't conquer a country using islamist fighters bankrolled by islamist monarchies and expect a liberal democracy.
That will condemn gay people, christians and other minorities to a terrible fate and help to spread even more fundamentalism.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Unless it's a puppet 'democratic' gov't, which as we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan have been able to do nothing to stop the terror or recruitment of IS in their own countries.
dsc
(52,162 posts)or for that matter lead to a pro gay state. Egypt got democracy for a short time post dictatorship and it wasn't pro gay, I don't know how Tunisia is in that regard, but being pro gay isn't the be all end all for me. Democracy is the be all end all for me. I think we should do what we can to get democracy in those countries and that might include supporting fighters or it might not depending on what fighters exist. And as to gays we should refuse to do business with countries that are anti gay just like we would with ones which are anti Christian.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)in spreading democracy and the islamist rebels we support?
dsc
(52,162 posts)and quite frankly they have been a large part of the problem in regards to the middle east.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Yeah... not gonna listen to Putin for advice. Generally speaking, whatever he says about the U.S., believe the opposite.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)You don't even have to provide links. Just pull 'em out of your...head.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)someone telling him or her what to think!
polly7
(20,582 posts)the much longed-for 'regime change' in Syria in 2012. That same regime change mentality that has decimated Iraq, Libya and so many countries around the world and caused the power vacuums in the ME and NA that have led to groups like ISIS taking over with their brutal, horrific acts.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)No matter his actual intentions, it doesn't change the accuracy of his critique of US foreign policy. I think it's interesting how few people are willing to listen at all, when it's someone from overseas criticizing us. I have to question their ability to be objective thinkers.
polly7
(20,582 posts)help to cause it. Nothing on the dead, the maimed, the homeless, the migrants dying at sea and being beaten and brutalized where they do land. The horror for those still in Syria living with the bombing ... the kidnappings, rape, murder. He's saying what many, many have said all along. But some simply care more for their own interests than anything happening with the people who bear the brunt of a foreign policy that's caused this time and time again. Our own involvement with NATO's help in causing it, included.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I just keep in mind that he is former agent of the KGB with a deep-seated hatred of West, and is a professional and practiced liar. His goal is establish himself and his political allies as undisputed rulers of a new Russian empire.
Some in the West are willing to embrace him on an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of basis.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)I don't believe this country fully understood what it was getting into and what it would entail. The Bush administration sold that war as a 3-week campaign and that we would virtually be in and out quickly. And that might not have been a lie. They likely believed that it would really be that easy.
You go in, get rid of the government.
Train some police and soldiers.
Set up a democracy.
Then leave.
Simple. Right?
The insurgency took us by surprise. What also took us by surprise is the amount of corruption and the terrorism. We underestimated the differences between the different sects of Islam. And this country wasn't determined to go the lengths necessary to clean up the mess we created. That allowed groups like ISIS to establish themselves.
It's a failure on Obama because he's done virtually nothing to stop ISIS. Now, if he wants to have a policy of getting out of mid-east affairs because it's not our business or our problem...fine. But the world is sort of up in arms now because we started this mess and now it seems we are not interested in fixing it because it's not as simple as Bush said it would be. That's how much of the world views it. "Shock and awe" and controlling drones from half-way around the world is easy and America loves doing that. But then America runs away when the job gets tough on the ground.
randome
(34,845 posts)And Democrats should always be ashamed of ourselves. We are so dirty, dirty, DIRTY!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Assad, keeping him propped up, don't believe Putin.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)one_voice
(20,043 posts)I really don't give a rat's ass what his opinion is.
I don't care for the message or the messenger.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)I guess most don't think about it, but Putin is THE biggest military dictator on the planet. Nobody else even comes close.
As far as being right, that happens...even Cheney says things that are correct, doesn't change the fact he thought about nuking Iraq! NUKING!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom