2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie on creating a caring nation. And me on the harm of the inevitabiity aura.
Not just "Im in it for myself."
What Is Actually Radical About Bernie Sanders Democratic Socialism Isnt the Socialism
Subtitle:
It isnt a particularly radical political visionits an unflinching commitment to democracy.
I think what youre talking about, Sanders said, is creating a nation its pretty radical stuffin which we actually care about each other rather than looking at the world as, Im in it for myself. And to hell with everybody else.
The brouhaha over Sanders self-identification as a democratic socialist has largely missed what is truly radical about that identity. Its not the socialism. Sanders has never used the S word with precisionfor him, it seems to be simply a shorthand for robust investment in public services and the common good.
That shorthand has proved remarkably useful, allowing him to distinguish himself from liberals and most Democrats, while pointing out that much of what he calls socialism is already deeply embedded in American society in a variety of popular programs and institutions, most notably in public libraries and parks, in the Social Security and Medicare programs, and in various aspects of the military. The ambitious agenda he has laid out would amount to the largest peacetime expansion of government in modern American history, as the Wall Street Journal has noted.
More:
Though they are very different in their approaches to achieving it, Sanders shares this commitment to a radical version of democracy with Saul Alinsky, the activist and organizer who made Chicago his home and has played an outsized role in our recent national politics.
....It may be that neither Alinskys ground-level strategy nor Sanders effort to build a broad, national coalition can reverse our march toward increasing inequality and the concentration of power among elites. It may be that a political revolution of the kind that Sanders predicts is an impossible dream.
....On the other hand, perhaps only a grand vision of the world that should be is equal to the scale of the challenges we face. Perhaps millions of people at every level, as Sanders offered at the conclusion of his University of Chicago talk, can indeed come together to foster a healthy democracy, redistribute power and make the American political system work for all people.
I have no idea what's going to happen as the primaries end.
I do know that the polling that has been so overwhelming since the debates is not really giving a true picture yet.
I still think I was right when I said at the start of the primary....we are in uncharted territory as far as polls and predictions go.
I think Bernie's idea of having a democracy in which the regular everyday people are valued as much as the super billionaires is not going to be easy to achieve.
I quite frankly think our party is making a mistake in trying to make one candidate seem totally inevitable while basically giving little attention to the others.
The trend seems clear, though: inevitability should not be something a candidate wants.
Hillary Clinton was the inevitable candidate in the 2008 race and the status did her more harm than good. Mitt Romney, the GOPs inevitable candidate in the same year, wound up limping across the GOP primary finish line dogged by Rick Santorum of all peopleonly to lose after being seen as an out-of-touch, robotic and wooden joke on the campaign trail.
....Jeb Bush, meanwhile, has become a walking joke for his passive weakness in the face of Donald Trumps insults, and his country-club white-collar tone and demeanor compared with Trumps brashness.
Inevitability is bad for candidates. It makes them careful, comfortable and defensive. No modern candidate should want it. If a candidate is fortunate enough to hold a lead in an intra-party presidential primary, they should follow the opposite of their instincts and their consultants advice and stay hungry: hold rallies, initiate bold legislative proposals and make provocative statements to win a news cycle or two.
The American people have an intense anger at elites right now, and they feel both culturally and economically insecure. Inevitable candidates run the risk of incurring their anger as the entrenched elites who need to be removed. Its perhaps the most dangerous position for a modern presidential candidate to hold.
Inevitability Comes Before a Fall in Modern Presidential Politics
I see posts recommending that since the polls are all so immensely in Hillary's favor that there is no need for other candidates to even bother.
I see it this way. If the party considers Bernie not to be a Democrat, then they must think of me that way as well. How very sad. I've always voted Democratic. Bill Clinton said we can fall in love in the primaries and fall in line in the general election. I have always done that.
People should hesitate before implying that Bernie Sanders and his supporters are not Democrats.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)then we'd be mocking them for their 'inevitable' choice of jeb(!) or mitt or whomever.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I think he's surprised about it.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)I try to remember his name isn't Jeb.
George Herbert Walker Bush, being born in Massachusetts and raised in Connecticut, wouldn't deign to name a scion of his Jeb like a common southerner. ( about the common southerner crack)
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Must have stunned him.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Believe it or not, there actually ARE Republicans who this also appeals to, and who are
fed up with their Clown Car idiots.
Bernie regularly receives 21-25% of the GOP votes in his home state of Vermont, and this
speaks volumes as to Bernie's cross-over appeal among pissed-off Republicans who still
have a conscience and a genuine concern for the wellbeing of our commonwealth.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I have learned not to bring up politics, but I still have managed to hear 4 Republicans around here talk about how much they like Bernie. Would they vote for him? Don't know. But they don't like Hillary.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)he resonates with them. They have been so busy voting against their own interests for years. They have to have it spelled out to them.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Seems like for so long most politicians have repeated the same talking points. People feel enlightened by his message.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Dems, Independents or non voters, when they hear him speak they hear someone who is genuine, authentic, a fighter for the PEOPLE, someone who says what they have wanted to hear a politician say for decades.
I live in a conservative area. The people are farmers, carpenters, fire fighters etc. Bernie appeals to them. I have no idea what party most of them belong to, but I know most are sick of politicians and care mostly about their families, about their futures. They don't talk about politics much, but they do talk about the things that concern them.
We have been led into thinking of people with LABELS. Bernie doesnt do that. He talks to them as people. As he did at Liberty University eg.
He knows how to unite people, not divide them.
840high
(17,196 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I agree he appeals to their better nature.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)should not be new concepts; they should be business as usual for our people and our government.
Sanders offers us this chance to start making it real.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)they were getting corporate money so they did not have to depend on their traditional constituents that would keep them from getting elected.
The DLC's brand of neo-liberalism is a cancerous mutation.
Strong language, I know, but that's the way I see it.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)and bowing to the corporate side of our country. They even said it out loud.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)because she's appealing to the exact opposite of "being in this together", and everyone
paying their fair share so we can ALL benefit, through solidarity and understanding that
rugged individualistic greed hurts everyone, including the greedy (at the end of the day).
Hillary's offering struggling middle class people a tiny pittance of a 'tax cut' to seduce
them away from the notion that 'when we stand together in solidarity we all win'. And
this pittance tax cut is nothing, compared to the benefits of free health care, free public
higher education and getting a $15 an hour minimum wage. 30 pieces of silver come to mind.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)They never work out the way they're pitched.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It's not her turn. It's the turn of the American people. And Bernie represents the American people.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)People should hesitate before implying that Bernie Sanders and his supporters are not Democrats.
The polls show the majority voting for Hillary. I think the polls are wrong, because they don't include the current state of tech and how younger people use it.
But it does make us look like a minority, so of course WE are the ones who are not true democrats.
I wish there was a way to correct the polls. Lots of people depend on the polls to sway them.
If this rift is so big it causes our party to split permanently, who will be responsible? We think the third way will be, they think we will be.
I wonder if there is a way to split DU GDP into two groups. Democratic Socialists (Left leaning) versus Third Way Dems (Moderates). Two groups who have separate primary political discussions so there isn't so much infighting, but all other forums are shared, so we can still mix ideas and hopefully sway people to change sides.
If one wants to wander into the discussion of the opposition, they know they have to behave themselves (no attacks or smearing their candidate...just calm rational conversation about policy differences with links to back it up), or be permanently blocked (until the primary election is over the the GDP groups are dissolved. But they cannot be blocked just for having a different opinion...so conversations can still happen. They just aren't allowed to go rancid like they have here in GDP. Maybe you shouldn't even be able to start new threads in your opposition group, just chime in on existing threads.
Bernie and O'Malley would fall into the socialist group and Hillary would fall into the third way group. They would still be run the same way GDP is now, just with tighter rules. Not like the smaller candidate support groups where hosts are free to block anyone for any reason.
I think this makes more sense than what we have going on now. And people might not be getting timed out and banned so often.
Just something to think about (and/or improve upon)
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Makes it harder to fight back.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)They advocate cuts to Social Security. By a huge majority the American people want to preserve Social Security and Medicare. That makes Third Way's position Way Way out of the mainstream (centrist/moderate).
Actually Bernie's policy positions more closely align with the American people making him more of a moderate centrist than the others. Support for single payer comes in at 50% making it a moderate middle of the road position.
Of course the muddlers of the media do not want us to consider this in a logical way. The nay sayers always try to say Bernie is akin to a cold war style communist when nothing could be further from the truth.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I think of a moderate as being socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. Which, to me, is not the real goal of Democrats. Or should not be.
Although I think the current moderate dem is even more moderate on many social issues too. Like poverty...they just don't seem to care much about poverty, health care, education and jobs/livable wages for everyone, even though they are social problems, not just fiscal problems. I do think 'moderate' has moved much further right today than it used to be. I think Third Way Dems are actually Conservative lights...or moderate conservatives, rather than moderate Dems.
The majority of Americans do seem to be leaning socially and fiscally liberal to me. Bernie is not just liberal, he's a democratic socialist...a real progressive, no holds barred. So those of us who support Bernie have a strong democratic socialist leaning. That really seems to scare moderates. Moderate dems forget that FDR was a democratic socialist too.
I think this country needs to be educated a lot on what democratic socialism is, and why it works and is best for the country, both socially and fiscally. We have a lot of educating to do.
Third Way dems like it when Hillary lies about Bernie's policies to make them seem unattainable or too expensive. To me that means they either don't understand how they work at all, or they really don't like his policies...they really want to be conservatives but have held the label of dem for so long they are embarrassed to give it up.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Great post!
dae
(3,396 posts)considered inevitable for Louisiana Governor.
Remember Newton's Law: What goes up MUST come down.
GoneOffShore
(17,340 posts)aidbo
(2,328 posts)..that's not Newton's law.
Newton had 3 laws of motion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion
The first one: "First law: When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.[2][3]"
'What goes up must come down' only applies in our gravity well and only in cases of low speeds.
The voyager space probe, which definitely went up, will likely never come down. (Unless it traverses the entire universe and comes back down to earth in a googol years)
**end nit-picky rant**
Sorry for that, it's meant only in a spirit of education.
dae
(3,396 posts)all I needed. But I should have expected at least one smart ar$e to correct me.
Your advice is taken in the spirit its given.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)We're at peace?
When did THAT happen?
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)I am so glad to still find a portion of DU that supports fighting to build this type of society and culture for the U.S.
I have been seeing so many posts around here the past few months that could easily have been made by my conservative friends and family, and I don't know what to make of this place any longer.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention!
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Been a lot of that kind of talking around here. Things we never accepted are considered fine now.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)The positions of the candidates we have seem to basically be..
Bernie: We keep being total dicks to each other, how about we trying not being dicks for a change?
O'Malley: Yeah, seriously guys, Let's just try the not being a dick thing.
Clinton: I agree in my heart, but also think nice guys finish last.
DianeK
(975 posts)she can not out liberal Bernie so she has to contrast her position by veering right....to try to run on the issues that Bernie has held dear for more than 30 years is like me trying to sing Cabaret with Liza in the front row audience
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)that we are going to have another "fear and terror I'll keep you safe" type of campaign reminiscent of pre-Iraq.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)was always cops and forensic accountants, not the SEALs or TSA, who just kick the can further down the road)
FloriTexan
(838 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)On the other hand, perhaps you should hesitate before assuming that isn't a compliment.
LiberalArkie
(15,719 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Thanks.