Why Hillary and Bernie supporters don't communicate with each other:

[Ron Green]

They are operating in two different paradigms.

Bernie's supporters are seeing a world that is way overdue for some fundamental changes in how we face the future, and are willing to work outside the conventional "politics game" to bring that about.

Hillary's supporters are concerned about party politics and who's winning the polls, getting endorsements, pulling ahead. They also believe a polished and experienced candidate is what we need.

These two goals are so far apart, I wonder how this forum really can function at all.

[Agschmid]

1. It functions just fine outside GDP.

[NurseJackie]

5. +1

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. No, Clinton's supporters are concerned with protecting what we have and making it better. nt

[bobbobbins01]

54. Almost like you're "Conserving" something

Sounds about right.

[Agnosticsherbet]

66. Nothing Conservative about it, We want to make sure that Social Security, Medicare, ACA, and other

programs survive, and that the Safety Net we have created continues.

We want to make them better by improving programs.

That is actually "Liberal" in the truest and most basic sense of the word.

If you heard read "Conserve," you added that to what was written.

Go back and read my words again, and do not add or amend the words.

[Chan790]

71. I don't think many of those are actually true of Clinton however.

I really don't believe that Hillary wants to preserve SS, Medicaid, Medicare, Obamacare in the same sense we want them preserved. She's been a proponent in the past of privatization and means-testing and opposition to public options and an advocate of the public-funded/privately-run insurance boondoggle we got from the ACA and...a lot of other things that render those social safety-net programs as good as dead.

So, her supporters may want to preserve what we have...but I'm pretty sure Hillary's idea of improvement is their destruction in all but name and replacement with the corporate-friendly privatization equivalents that the GOP would be running on if they hadn't gone over the ridge into loonyland.

As a slight segue, when I was in college, I was in a fraternity and the bottom of our crest said "Gnothenes eth philon" which is Greek for &quot a person is) known by their friends" sometimes in one context meaning you can know what kind of person someone is by the friends they keep. Likewise, you can know a person by their ideas and deeds.

When I say Hillary's a Republican, it's because she has Republican ideas, Republican friends and a moderate-Republican record.

[Agnosticsherbet]

73. I disagree with that.

I think that she is the best person to be my representative in the Executive Branch. Her relationship with Republicans will be a constant battle, as bad as it has been under Obama and perhaps worse as their frustration at being kept form all the levers of power will not temper their actions. Some of them are already discussing impeachment.

As to being a Republican, her voting record and polices show her to be left of most of the Democrats in Congress, though to the right of Sanders, except in Gun issues where Sanders is a centrist a best. (The only issue where he stands in the position.) Clinton is every bit as much of a Democrat as Sanders, the only difference being she has been a member of the party longer. The length of time spent in the party does not affect my vote.

I will happily for Sanders in the General, if he wins the nomination. The General, in my opinion, is about electing the best government from the choices we are given, that being whoever the Republicans nominate verses whoever Democrats nominate.

[bravenak]

3. I can talk to people about it.

Just not here all the time. The groups have better discussions than gdp.

[Plucketeer]

13. Pesticides have consequences WAY BEYOND

the bug you aim them at. Your spray can "funny" is offensive to folks who care about the environment.

[AuntPatsy]

4. Not true n my case, I support both as well as respect for MO, I believe that to be an unfair

assessment.....

respect helps human interaction to become useful instead of threatening....

[Starry Messenger]

6. Not.

The problem is one group believes in magic. The other doesn't.

[Ron Green]

9. Would that be the "magic of the free market?"

[PowerToThePeople]

21. Or the magic of capitalism?

A rising tide raises all boats, unless you drown.

[artislife]

24. Or the magic of compromise

and the fact that the environment can no longer wait for all of us to agree to climate change before we actually do something about it.

In reality, Bernie is the only ones who cares about the grandkids, you know the ones who will actually have to live through the worst of it.

I don't have kids and am hoping I don't have to go through it, but I cannot understand those who do have kids and not give enough f*cks to actually do real actions to protect them.

[Starry Messenger]

35. The magic of online self-selected polling and "winning in all 50 states!11"

[That Guy 888]

42. Then you have nothing to worry about

If Hillary's victory is inevitable, why stress?

[JimDandy]

46. Hey, you communicated to me which group

you like. See, we're talking here.

[brooklynite]

7. "concerned about party politics and who's winning the polls, getting endorsements, pulling ahead. "

I think we call that "winning the election". It's sort of the point. The fundamental change that the Sanders people want is meaningless if you lose.

[artislife]

27. It looks like that is the end game, though.

The winning the election.


After that will come compromise a republican congress.


And the environment will go through its death throes within a hundred years because no one was courageous. This is why to many, it doesn't matter if it is a republican or h who is elected. The end result will be the same. The big picture, not the political picture.

[treestar]

58. and if you don't pay the slightest attention to the states and Congress

They apparently will never learn that the President does not have all the power. They are still looking for their Messiah.

[Chan790]

75. It's like the Marshall McLuhan quote:

"The medium is the message." In this case, both campaigns and their supporters have shown us very clearly what is important to them as core ideas and ideals by the medium they have chosen to pursue their campaigns through.

Sanders: "The system is broken. The system must be changed to benefit and work for people ahead of the interests of the system."

Clinton: "The system is how you play and win the game. The purpose of the game is to win...we're trying to win. Why the F would we want to change the system?"

Trying to be as evenhanded as possible in analysis, that tells me a great deal about who each is running to govern for, who will benefit and how they intend to govern. To me, only one of them is actually holding true to Democratic values.

[Ron Green]

91. Thanks. I like the way you expressed this.

And there are Republicans, some of them good people and working in good faith, whose concerns ought to be understood and not dismissed out of hand.
This is the hard part, and has to be accomplished in ways not tried in the past.

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. idealists vs pragmatists? desiring better/positive change vs settling or holding steady?

[Basic LA]

44. I Think You Nailed It.

Pragmatists (or gradualists) pulling one way, vs. Idealists pulling the other. This explanation of the two world views we've been seeing here makes the most sense to me.

[jeff47]

10. IMO, it's "change" vs "fear of loss"

Clinton supporters seem far more concerned with losing ground.
Sanders supporters seem far more concerned with gaining ground.

[artislife]

28. ^^ this nt

[angrychair]

31. ^^^^THIS^^^^ nt

[Hepburn]

62. Bingo!

IMO, what we have simply is NOT good enough in my opinion. Example: We should have had Medicare for all. What we have was a compromise that IMO only aided the insurance companies. It seemed simple to me: Make it Medicare for everyone. Why bother with something else when we have something which works very well.

Yeah, I want it FIXED! I do not wish to take bad situations and put a Band-Aid on it.

[Ed Suspicious]

82. I truly believe that we don't lose ground unless we play not to lose ground. Playing for gains risks

little while gains can be huge. Playing it the Clinton way gains little while presupposing that we're going to lose - it's just a question of degree.

[Hydra]

11. I think you summed it up really well

I belong to the camp that says we are in serious trouble on a lot of levels, and we needed to do a lot about it more than a decade ago.

Hillary's supporters seem to feel that everything is more or less fine, but that we need to prevent another Republican presidency to keep things moving smoothly.

I think we'll find out sooner rather than later which reality is correct. I really wish things were fine...but in every crisis is the chance to do something better. I hope we do.

[mindwalker_i]

12. It seems to me that you have a big part of the picture

Bernie supporters are looking at his ideas, the things he fights for, what he's angry about, and see democratic principles that they like. Hillary supporter seem pretty much religious - they worship the (D). There are a lot of posts about how Hillary is winning, and they seem to be fairly dismissive of issues. They tend to call people who disagree with Hillary "Hillary haters," which is a cheap way to dismiss one's opposition.

They also really don't like Snowden, and this is because he "embarrassed" Obama. That, in turn, dismisses or evades the very real issues of surveillance and the harm it does the country. All in the name of the (D). Furthermore, by plastering over bad things when "our" side does it, we make the arguments for democrats much weaker - it turns into "vote for our side" rather than "vote for us because we're doing the right thing." When we then complain about abuses of power by republicans, all our arguments are hollow and hypocritical.

[840high]

15. ...+1

[AtomicKitten]

26. An astute summary.

Well done.

[azmom]

32. +1

[OnyxCollie]

41. Authoritarianism is not bound by party ID. nt

[senz]

45. I think you come closer to defining it than most.

I find it very easy to understand where Bernie supporters are coming from. They make sense to me. I think they/we work from a set of passionate beliefs/values/convictions that are based on valuing life generally and human beings specifically. Bernie supporters also take an inclusive view of the world and want our votes to make it a better place for all. Hillary voters do indeed align with Party (D) even when Party drifts away from its defining values. It reminds me of sports affiliations -- you pick a team and try to beat the other team. To me, that feels shallow. I am always amazed at how uninterested they are in issues and values. You try to discuss issues or principles with them, and the best they can do is something along the lines of, "Hillary has as many issue papers as Bernie does," as if issues were a notch on a candidate's belt, just things she acquires. It's almost as if they don't put meaning into anything. Hillary is their team, or maybe their team's quarterback. Whereas for Bernie supporters, Bernie is someone whose values align with our own and who is willing to go out there and try to change the way the country treats people and the earth we live on. These are indeed different paradigms.

But some Hillary supporters also attach another kind of significance to Hillary, a very personal significance. Among certain of her supporters, there seems to be a strange defensiveness about her physical appearance -- and I get the impression that these are usually female supporters. I've tried to understand it and can't. The only explanation I can think of is projection and/or identification. Among some other supporters, ones who I think are male, there seems to be a sort of chivalrous protectiveness toward Hillary which most often translates to protecting her from verbal criticism. In both cases, it's amazingly intense and very personal, like she's family or a deity or ... themselves. And then I look at Hillary and it blows me away that anyone could relate to her in such an intensely personal way. Since there seems to be something gendered in these more intimate responses, I've wondered if they would relate the same way to Elizabeth Warren -- but I doubt they would. So it remains a mystery. Going into the realm of literature/myth, I've wondered if perhaps there is a touch of the medieval "m'lady" in their feelings toward her, if her male supporters are courtly like knights and her female supporters are like ladies in waiting. (Sorry to sound like an English teacher, which I'm not.)

I think many Bernie supporters also have personal feelings for him, but the feelings are not rooted in his physical appearance or a sense that he needs to be protected from criticism. They're not as intimate. For me, his moral goodness (not that he's perfect, but he's far better than most of us) and his courage in going out there and challenging the tptb inspires a tremendous amount of admiration and gratitude. What a good, good man. I hold him very dear. There may also be a bit of the David vs. Goliath archetype in our feelings for him. (Of course, the corporatists, the oligarchs, the plutocrats would be Goliath.)

These very different takes on what we're doing here and what this election is all about make it difficult to communicate on a meaningful level. It's almost like we talk past each other. Two different realities, colliding realities.

[mindwalker_i]

63. This is a really good illustration of the real difference between supporters

of each candidate. There is a sense of reverence to Hillary as the Democrat, carrying torch of the Democratic Party. Support for her is pretty much deference. All of this hints strongly at divine right, which, in my opinion, is a really bad thing for democracy. It's pretty much a postulate on this site that democrats are better than republicans, but when making the case to the rest of the country we can't treat it that way: we have to make the argument that democrats are better with reasoning that people can accept. Simply saying Democrats are our Team and we're rooting for them falls flat.

What I see in Bernie is that his ideas and the things he fights for are the right things - the things we need. Thos of us not at the top are getting killed. And there's so much frustration in the country over leadership that keeps helping those at the top, at our expense, which Bernie is tapping into. Elizabeth Warren is too. But more than that, the frustration will eventually turn into pitchforks. That will be really messy and a lot of people will die, so it would be good to avoid it if possible. Bernie and Liz channel that energy productively.

So in the end, supporting Hillary is supporting the very problem that is causing the country to go down a dangerous path. Support for Bernie and, unfortunately, for Trump is reflective of the frustration that people in the country feel with its leadership in general - that they are not working for us. Republicans are easily manipulated into supporting people who aren't going to help and I'd like to think we're better.

[senz]

94. Yes, the difference between Bernie's and Trump's populist appeal

is that Bernie understands what happened to pull the rug out from under the middle class and also knows what needs to change to restore basic economic security and stability to all the people. Plus, his plans are doable.

Trump just plays off people's fear and angers offering them scapegoats but no solutions.

[Qutzupalotl]

83. I can understand that aspect of supporting Clinton.

She was horrendously attacked during the 90's for being a strong, outspoken woman. Her being competent and smart just drives the right nuts. Plus she was publicly wronged by her husband and humiliated, but pulled through. So she represents more to a lot of people than just a candidate. She is what many aspire to become when faced with hard circumstances: a survivor.

I like her when she attacks Republicans, not so much when she attacks her primary opponents. I disagree with a LOT of her positions, but I'd vote for her if she wins the general.

Likewise, Sanders represents traditional Democratic positions, and has a long history speaking out, joining marches and sit-ins. I think he reminds a lot of the 60's generation of themselves. I can't explain the youth excitement, but my guess is they would have joined those marches and sit-ins but just never had the opportunity to be part of a movement until now.

[senz]

93. Yes, I agree that she was unfairly attacked in the 90s.

But to give her the nomination out of sympathy is to lose sight of what the presidency is and whose futures are really at stake. All elections should be about country and the people, not the candidate's personal happiness.

[Maedhros]

77. Spot on. [n/t]

[JDPriestly]

14. As a Bernie supporter, I think your analysis is pretty good.

Not only do I want change, but I think America is ready for change, a populist movement.

Bernie can lead that movement and will.

I'm concerned about the many, many Americans who are disengaged from the elections, from our political system. The 2014 election results, like those in 2010 demonstrate that the status quo is not so much as interesting to most Democrats.

We can do better, and Bernie is telling us what we need to change to do better. It's his moment, our moment in history. We just have to grasp it.

I don't see Democrats coming out to vote for Hillary. That is especially true of young Democrats.

Obama is a good man, but he did not dare to change, and we need change.

[Not a Fan]

16. Bernie supporters vs Hillary supporters

Don't give up your day job.

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. nt

[Flying Squirrel]

18. It's because we're all shouting at each other!

[Gothmog]

19. Both groups are using different value systems

According to that online quiz/test, Sanders is closer to my positions than Clinton but I live in the real world and I am unable to support a candidate who can not win in the general election. Control of the SCOTUS is too important and Sanders is simple not viable in a general election contest where the Kochs wlll be spending $887 million and the GOP candidate may spend another billion dollars.

[artislife]

33. The real world where mega storms and droughts are

becoming more extreme and common place?

The real world where H ideas are tepid and won't matter an iota in 100 years. That is the real world. Not the first woman, not a "fighter" whose greatest fight has just been with a political party. Incrimental change in a fast, cataclysmic earth change is like spitting in the wind.

[bravenak]

37. I got the same result. Way closer to Bernie.

I am to his left on every chart, and to the left of most democrats. But I am pragmatic.

[NurseJackie]

50. Two %-age points difference between Hillary and Bernie for my score.

Bernie is closer to me (by 2 points) than Hillary, so basically it's within a typical margin of error, and I'd call that a tie.

Next comes a my realistic assessment of how "middle America" or the "square states" or "red states" or "flyover states" or "less-sophisticated voters" are exceedingly likely to be put-off from Bernie's socialist label.

The folks who gather here are (generally) intelligent enough to understand what it means, but the rest of the country, particularly those mentioned previously, won't get it.

In spite of Bernie's efforts to "explain it away", is a vulnerability that the GOP will fully exploit, and HE WILL LOSE. Not because he's a "bad man" in my eyes, but because he'll be viewed as a "bad candidate" in the eyes of the square-state independents.

You can't go "all-in" with a weak hand and NOT expect the GOP to call your bluff.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Actually, Bernie supporters see the system as the problem....

While Hillary supporters are proud of being embraced by the system.

[Todays_Illusion]

23. Good reply. nt

[nolabels]

53. That's a bunch of crap, most know the structure of government works...

The issue is of that of reform. One thinks a band-aide will work and the other has other ideas.

Interesting thing is that the one with band-aide remedy fails to really acknowledge that things festering and rotting inside could burst the ever enlarging sack. I think where part of difference is.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

81. So, you're saying Bernie has a lance?

[nolabels]

96. Or at least he has a good idea where to get an appropriate size drain tube..........

to start draining the overfilled cesspool. The scoundrels in D.C. don't look us in the populous as contemporaries and constituents but more as beef on the hook, we are the commodity they sell to their buyers. We are that proverbial 'what's for dinner' and they are feasting on us.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

97. Maybe, but from the sounds of things we're making them sick.

[treestar]

59. Then why is Bernie in the system?

Why is he a Senator? Why is he running for the Democratic nomination for President? Those are all part of "the System."

[Spitfire of ATJ]

79. That gave me a chuckle over my coffee.....

Mainly because you were serious.

[treestar]

86. So you got nothin'

[Spitfire of ATJ]

88. We have each other.....

Oh wait,....you're right.

[Hiraeth]

92. I see what you did there and

I like it

[2banon]

65. Bingo. nailed it. n/t

[Todays_Illusion]

22. True and false, I am a liberal Bernie Sanders supporter and the reason I support Bernie

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 02:12 AM - Edit history (1)

and in 2008 the reason I voted for President Obama, I believe Hillary is too willing to capitulate to the big money interests.

[WillyT]

25. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[pnwmom]

29. Your post is obviously written as a supporter of Bernie. I doubt that many of HRC's

supporters would agree with your description of their priorities.

[wss2001]

30. Reality

I wished we lived in a country where someone like
Bernie could be President. But we don't. A self labeled Socialist cannot be elected in our country.
That is a fact. Hillary can. She is tough and smart
And has the experience needed to lead our country.
Can she inspire through speech like Obama or Bernie not so much. But if we by some miracle nominate Bernie Sanders we will be handing our nation over to the clown college that is the GOP.
That is our reality.

[artislife]

34. I believe she will hand it over to the republicans

Really, it will be like 2014 elections.

[Maedhros]

78. You really wish all that were true, but it isn't.

/bye.

[PatrickforO]

36. I think it is good, and I'll tell you why.

This exposes a real schism in our party, and the resultant battle for the party's soul is overdue.

There is no guarantee that the Bernie people will win, but we have to try. This country has been headed in the wrong direction for a long time - since 1980 when Reagan oozed into the White House like a plague bacillus. The whole neoliberal capitalist model has been like a cancer on this earth. Cut taxes for the rich 'job creators. Deregulate. Privatize. Gut social programs. Let the 'invisible hand' of the market take care of everything.

But instead of a better country, we have nearly half of Americans living on the edge of poverty, shitty schools, college education priced out of most people's reach, crappy jobs with few benefits, health care costs rising in double digits, WAY faster than inflation, cops killing minority kids right and left, a giant domestic spying apparatus, a forever war, an earth that will burn to a crisp if we don't get our shit together...


Fuck.


That's why we need Bernie. And we all need to stand up and back his play. Let's get this country back on track so it actually stands for something besides greed.

[Depaysement]

43. But we have wifi now

So it's all good!

[raindaddy]

38. Bernie seems like the last hope for what's left of the FDR liberal Democrats

Hillary has made it clear that she'll protect Wall Street banks that have become so big they can take down our whole economy. Most Bernie supporters can't relate to a candidate who would continue to allow Wall Street the power to hold a gun to the taxpayers heads..It's becoming harder to recognize the current incarnation of the Democratic party.

Less people identify with either party every year. If Hillary wins, even more liberals will abandon the party. Most people under 30 no longer bother to vote. Where are the new Democrats going to come from?

[Ron Green]

39. My point is made by posts #30 and #36.

Of course I agree with #36, but to imagine a discussion between its point and that of #30 is like chalk and cheese. 30 sees "reality" as a given, and a safe alternative to the yearnings of socialist ideologues.

Nobody's mind changes throughout all this.

[lovemydog]

40. Interesting regarding the two different paradigms.

I don't want to generalize too much, but I'll offer my limited view. Hillary's supporters tend to emphasize how things are (but they also see things as they should be). Bernie's supporters tend to emphasize how things should be (but they also see things as they are).

As someone who feels more 'left' than 'democratic party' I feel we need both perspectives to build a big enough coalition to win and expand. When the goals are too far apart (or when what's inside the parentheses above are abandoned), things break into rigidity and factionalism. I see this at play here often and don't much find it effective or pleasurable.

[AgingAmerican]

47. True that

Policy vs political gamesmanship

[BlueMTexpat]

48. I believe that the genuine supporters

of each candidate have much more in common than not, especially those in non-DU GD-P world.

There are some here at DU - in each camp - that I suspect are not genuine supporters, nor even Democrats, and who want to divide or create divisions where none actually exist. If this means that the GOP will ultimately win the GE, they're fine with that.

Please keep that in mind when you posit such paradigms.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. I agree with you on all of that.

In fact I think it is obviously true.

[mmonk]

49. Who said this forum was functioning?

[bigwillq]

51. Good post.

K and R

[procon]

52. Well, that was self serving.

Your assertions are fraught with misinformation and asumptions. For example, explain for Sanders will ever reaches get the power to make any changes without first getting ahead and earning enough endorsements to get the nomi ation, let alone be elected?

That's not even politics, its just simple math and you don't seem to grasp the process.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. What does this mean:

"explain for Sanders will ever reaches get the power to make any changes without first getting ahead and earning enough endorsements to get the nomi ation, let alone be elected? "

I don't want to guess at what you are asking and this is some confounding syntax you present along with your snark....'explain for Sanders will ever reaches get the power to make.....?'

[procon]

61. LOL... Seriously?

OK, I'll tell you my sad tale; whilst waiting in the early morning line at the donut shop with a sketchy connection and a crowd of jostling customers trying to get inside and out of the drizzle, my half frozen fingers did the best they could.

There were only a couple of places that needed to be corrected, but now that I'm home, I'll translate for you:


"Your assertions are fraught with misinformation and assumptions. For example, explain how Sanders will ever get the power to make any changes without first getting ahead and earning enough endorsements to get the nomination, let alone be elected?

That's not even politics, it's just simple math and you don't seem to grasp the process."


So far Clinton has 359 superdelegates, Sanders has 8 votes for the nomination. Can you say how he's going to pull the proverbial rabbit out of his hat?

[ieoeja]

68. Zero endorsements are required to get the nomination.

Endorsements are nice. They might influence people as to for whom they will vote. But they are absolutely not a requirement.

Clinton has 359 superdelegates who have said that they plan on voting for her. She had much the same in 2008. But hundreds of them switched to Obama after he won the primary.

Someone certainly does not seem to grasp the process.

[procon]

69. So, the plan is for Sanders to go from his 8 superdeletes

to convincing a majority of Clinton's current 359 superdelegates to ditch her and vote for him even though he hasn't been able to move the needle and overtake her? What would compel all these VIP party loyalists, who are the Democratic members of Congress, high-ranking Party members, governors and ex-presidents and vice presidents to do that?

[ieoeja]

70. Winning primaries. The exact same way Obama did it in 2008. n/t

[treestar]

57. Bernie is running for the Democratic nomination

He is not outside the Establishment. BS. There are not going to be "fundamental changes" in this country as long as there is a Republican Congress and plenty of Republican governors and state houses. This idea the whole world will change due to the presidency is just plain wrong, dumb, and getting dreary.

Bernie is not outside "the conventional politics game."

[Ron Green]

67. I didn't say he's outside the establishment, rather

outside the conventional politics game. You know, big money donors and inside endorsements. You are right that dozens of statehouses and hundreds of local governments will have to be taken back from right-wing interests, and the only way that will happen is for people to wake up and participate. In other words, a "political revolution." But there's too much fear and ignorance; it's not likely to happen.

[treestar]

87. thanks for a civil and substantive response

not often done in this forum.

[DanTex]

60. Actually, it's largely because of OPs like this.

Instead of asking Hillary supporters what they are concerned about, instead you tell them what they think.

[pinebox]

64. You're absolutely correct! And then there's this!

Since I've been posting on DU I've noticed a number of things.

Just yesterday I had a Hillary supporter actually DEFEND fracking and literally tell us all that what Hillary did with pushing fracking around the globe and especially in Eastern Europe was a GOOD thing. Despite her ties to big oil. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251824618 That is a REPUBLICAN position!

More?

I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me that a living wage isn't possible and that Hillary's plan is the best plan.
I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me that the ACA is just fine and covers "enough" people.
I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me that SuperPAC's are ok.
I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me free college education is wrong and people should pull up their bootstraps.
I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me that Bernie is a "Socialist!" Cue up Red Square marches!
I've actually had Hillary supporters on DU tell me that Bernie doesn't deserve the nomination because he's not really a Dem.

This sort of shit is stupid. Remind me again what site I'm on? I am absolutely amazed at the non-liberal policy's that some around here take all to just defend their candidate no matter how wrong she is. It's like having a damn conversation with a kitchen sink!

[Fumesucker]

72. As someone who has several thousand posts on Discussionist you could have the same arguments there

Except Discussionist is more amenable to reason than the Hillary supporters.

http://www.discussionist.com/1015104018

[pinebox]

74. Never used Discussionist

and my usual hang out is twitter.

[Fumesucker]

76. It's DU without the Democratic bias, same software basically with juries and so on

Same admins but any political viewpoint welcome.

[ibegurpard]

84. Don't forget that FDR was bad...

[Io1989]

80. bernie

Bernie 2016

[awoke_in_2003]

85. I communicate with several Clinton supporters regularly. nt

[Ron Green]

89. Do you find that you're comparing them as to

who would be the better candidate or president, or as to the nature of what each one's race means to the country? Or do you even recognize a difference between these topics?

[Betty Karlson]

90. Thanks for that.

A paradigm discussion may be just what we need.

[sabrina 1]

95. Real change is necessary now. Regressive Third Way policies are a disaster

for not just US citizens but for the world and they are being rejected EVERYWHERE. Could this be the last gasp of neocon/lib policies?

See the UK, Canada, Greece and now here? I hope so for the sake of peaceful people everywhere

[Major Hogwash]

98. Oh, but I do Ron. I won't vote for a warmonger, whether they are a Democrat or a Republican.

Man or woman.
Black or white.

And I tell them that all of the time.

We came. We saw. He died.

That's all you need to know about Hillary Clinton.

I've got $20 that sez that most of the supporters for Hillary won't even be posting here much after June 1st, after the primaries are over, and Bernie is the candidate with the most votes.
I doubt if they'll even hang around to say "Yay, Bernie became the President" later that fall when he beats the Republican candidate.

Most of Hillary's old supporters from 2008 left DU right after Obama beat McCain that year.