Clinton's Iraq vote is more toxic than Kerry or Biden's

[Prism]

It always comes up. "Well, did you vote for X?!" The idea being, if you voted for a Democrat who enabled the Iraq War in the past, you have no place to object now. It's a simplistic refrain.

But, we have an advantage now. We have the fullness of time. We have the ability to say, "So, just how bad was your fuck up?" If you voted for Iraq? Enormous. It was a huge, huge, huge, fuck-up. When Kerry was running, we kind of knew. In 2008, we had a better sense of the enormity of the crime and thus many anti-war people flocked to Obama, myself included.

In 2016, with the rise of ISIS, with the Syria deterioration, with the refugee crisis and the French terrorism and a thousand other things, we can concretely say, "No, you fucked up. Big time. Enormously. You should never hold the reins of power again."

There's a difference in being able to say, "I don't think this policy is going to end well for us," (2004).

And there's a difference in saying, "It's shitty, but it'll peter out," (2008)

And, "Holy fucking shit, what a god damned nightmare this whole mess is. (2016)

Clinton skated by 2004 and 2008 questions. Now she has to answer for the nightmare. Today, seeing what I've seen, and knowing what I know? No, I wouldn't vote for Kerry. Biden is a nonsequitur. Guy is a VP. But what we tolerated then isn't necessarily what we should tolerate now. If you have a fuck-up that hard core, with this kind of reverberation, you should have to answer for it.

And, "whoops!" is not a god damned answer. Not with millions dead. Does anyone anywhere think Democrats would forgive Bush and Cheney if they just went, "Whoops, my bad!" No, we would not. But we're expected to do this with Clinton?

Sometimes I suspect some people aren't so liberal.

[winter is coming]

1. It's not clear she's learned from the past, either. n/t

[jfern]

3. It's very clear she hasn't

[jfern]

2. It's not just her Iraq vote

She voted for Kyl-Lieberman to allow Bush to go to war with Iran. She supported arming the jihadists in Syria who became ISIS. Last month she said the number 1 priority in Iraq is to get rid of Assad. And since the Russian planes started flying in Syria to attack the jihadists, she said there should be a no fly zone where they are flying.

If you are against Iran, Assad, and Russia in Syria, then you are pro Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria. While Iran, Assad, and Russia all have their problems, they are the lesser of the evils there. Hillary's foreign policy is 100% to blame for ISIS.

[Prism]

5. I really don't understand her "foreign policy credentials"

People cite these in her favor, but as near as I can tell, they involve her being to identify places on a map. Understanding the delicate interplay between factions and knowing how to navigate them intelligently so they don't bite us in the ass in the future? Not so much. But she knows where shit is on a map, damnit, and she can vaguely describe the situation on the ground that several dozen news sources have detailed much better.

Her achievements are like certificates we give to the slow kids and then cite as qualifications.

[jfern]

7. I think it's based upon her having a fair amount of foreign policy experience

But positions matter a lot more than experience. After all, Dick Cheney has even more experience with foreign policy.

[Prism]

9. But experience only counts if one learned and adjusted

I have a friend with a lot of "sexual experience"

Ok, sure, he's crawling with STD's, but he has a lot of experience!

I view Clinton the same way.

[Jarqui]

15. In 2008, her foreign policy resume was not very strong

It led to the lies about being shot at in Bosnia and massive overstatement of being "instrumental" in getting Ireland's Good Friday peace agreement (which they've tried to cover their tracks by an American outfit giving her an award).

As first lady, she traveled and met a bunch of foreign dignitaries. But she wasn't haggling deals with them or working on military defense or orchestrating much diplomacy = doing any heavy lifting.

I think by design, the Secretary of State gig was to help fill that hole in her resume.

if you read Obama's book, Audacity of Hope, he was strong on this stuff because he'd studied it in college and given it a lot of thought since. His book was a written vision for what would unfold and be the foundation of his foreign policy during his administration. As Secretary of State, she had a pretty good chart from her boss to sail with.

Now, the thing she's got that she can't very well say in the debate is her husband. Bill's far more experienced at that stuff and will be a great sounding board. So she's got some much needed help she can really trust. And he'll be an awesome sounding board for the economy.

So she's fortunate to have a pretty good president cover her back.

[JonLeibowitz]

28. Don't forget election rigging and overthrowing democratic governments in Latin America.

Great foreign policy, that.

[Buzz cook]

4. You do know that neither Clinton or any other Democrat voted to invade Iraq?

The authorization to us military force had several conditions which Bush ignored and the media never reported on.

Just another charge that Bush was never brought up on by democrats controlled congress or by Obama since he took office.

[Prism]

6. They knew what they were voting for

And no one anywhere pretends otherwise.

[jfern]

8. "This is Another Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" - Senator Robert Byrd

And then they voted to end debate and silenced Senator Robert Byrd. They knew what they were voting for.

[ThePhilosopher04]

10. OH PLEASE!

Spare us the hair-splitting. She knew full well what she was voting for. You're either for war or against it. There is no middle ground.

[enid602]

11. HRC

And who's to say, had Hillary been President at the time, that she would have invaded, even with the authorization? Or even if she did invade, that she would have executed it so feebly as GW, with no exit plan, or a clear understanding of the tribal and religious rifts that would accompany Hussein's overthrow? Would she have had stacks of $100 bills in 'shrink wrap' flown in to Bagdad, lowered the income tax on the wealthiest Americans to historic levels and outsourced many military functions, giving the 1% great opportunities to invest in contract businesses? Blaming HRC for the mess in Iraq and the rise of ISIS is no more than a cheap political stunt, authored by an Independent who never felt much pressure to compromise or work with others.

[oasis]

26. Exactly. Bush ordered Hans Blix and his WMD inspections team out

of Iraq once it was clear there were no WMD to be found. Who in congress knew Bush was going to be so brash as to pull a stunt like that? There have been some pajama posters who have claimed they knew Bush could not be trusted.

Yeah, right.

[Hepburn]

29. So she trusted Bush to do the right thing?

And when he ignored the conditions, she took actions to make sure he did as agreed, right?

[tritsofme]

31. The resolution leaves it to the president alone to determine

Whether those conditions were met. This is pretty much a BS argument.

[Hydra]

12. There's another reason she owns a bigger piece of the responsibility

The sales pitch to go to Iraq wasn't working. Many Dems were just not buying it.

When Bushco needed it the most, she was out there using the political capital and trust we had for her to make the last big push for it...and it worked.

She has gotten her reward for that- She and Bill have been adopted into the 1%(And not just any 1% Family- the Bush Family) for their stellar services in that regard.

She should not be "rewarded" with the Presidency for supporting an illegal presidency.

[Prism]

13. She was in a very unique position

Being the Senator from New York. Her refrain was, "War, war, war."

Well, look at Paris today. That's war.

Not so fun now, eh?

[MisterP]

32. (repost) Dem support had a disproportionate effect: before it was something that

only hardliners and fundies and oillionaires were for--it was a GOP project 100%, plus the likes of Zell and Lieberman; it was a project by babbling neocons who wanted to invade every country twice just so nobody looked funny at us (especially you, Seychelles), the ones who wanted to pen up the petroleum so they could buy that 10-kitchen 90,000-square foot house, the Aquanets and pompadours bawling about witchcraft and tea boxes and left-handed people on TV 3 hours at a stretch

but now it was LEGITIMATE topic of political discourse, something that had managed to "convince the liberals," something that SENSIBLE people could talk about ever so REASONABLY; now it wasn't just a partisan football but national policy, now politics DID "stop at the water's edge," now it was a consensus that only a minority of Senators opposed

[BlueStateLib]

14. What additional legal authority did george bush gain from the 2002 iwr vote

Bush already had
1- The terms of the 1991 Gulf War resolution were still binding, desert storm hostilities ended with a cease fire and all the u.n. resolutions were still in effect.
2- Terms of the Sept. 14, 2001 congressional resolution approving military action against terrorism (S.J. Res 23)·

Only one person voted against war and that was Rep Barbara Lee. If the 2002 iwr was a vote for war, why was Iraq invaded by hans blix and the u.n. weapons inspectors?

Hillary Clinton Floor Speech A.U.M.F. Use of Force Vote
October 10, 2002

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq.

Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

[d_legendary1]

16. Trusting the War Shrub for a yes vote was stupid

Blaming jihadist instead of our intervention in the middle east is equally as stupid. She did not learn from her mistakes.

[Cheese Sandwich]

17. Exactly. There's no doubt now.

Things were not as clear in 2004 at all. Not even close.

For one thing Saddam Hussein had just been captured right before the first primaries.

(In December 2003) It may have seemed to many people that we were winning the war.

But now we know.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. She's defending her vote as a representative of Wall Street.

[SoapBox]

19. And isn't that just freaking bizarre!

Who the hell in Camp Weathervane came up with that bit of bullshit?!?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. Probably the same ones who thought the way to give everyone a raise is to have them buy stock.

[winter is coming]

24. What's amazing is that she chose to use it.

Did she really think that shit would fly?

[winter is coming]

23. She wasn't supposed to be the senator from Wall Street.

She was supposed to represent all of New York. What about all the soliders who were wounded or killed in a war we were lied into? Why wasn't she representing them?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Why wasn't she representing these folks?

[zentrum]

20. Well said.

No. She's no liberal. She's a Neo-con.

The idea of her being in power frightens me. She's ruthless and oddly rudderless. She has for no inner guiding principles. And is beholden to the Military-Industral complex and will feel she has to show how tough she is—Thatcher-like. We all remember how Thatcher did the Faulklands War simply as a demonstration and solidification of power. She was the model for Reagan, economically, and later, for Bush W. in becoming a "War President".

[billhicks76]

21. Sorry But Kerry And Biden Should Face Music Too

They too should pay for their vote. Clinging to them because they are famous too is a mistake. All the war monger should be blacklisted. I have no fondness for either one. Biden was an architect of the Drug War at home and Kerry was in Skull & Bones and too tied to what's wrong in this country.

[BeanMusical]

27. Kick and R

[seaglass]

30. If that makes you feel better about voting for Kerry - go for it. I knew Iraq was a catastrophe the

day we started bombing, very peculiar that some are only realizing it now. Kerry and Biden are just as culpable as Clinton and frankly I never believed if Obama was in the Senate at the time he would have voted against it.