Clinton supports AAs and civil rights. So does Sanders. Shouldn't that be all that F'in matters?

[Armstead]

Last edited Thu Nov 12, 2015, 07:24 PM - Edit history (2)

This goddamn racially divisive shit has gotten beyond the pale.

It get's so depressing to see these racial divisions being fanned in the light of partisanship. And it gets really depressing to see an issue being made so toxic and internally divisive -- despite the fact that everyone on this general side of the spectrum (regardless of what candidate they support) generally agrees on the same goals and values.

Both Clinton and Sanders (and O'Malley though he hasn't been dragged into this) support the AA community, are concerned with racial justice and believe in strong civil rights and will work for that if elected. There is NO question about that.

Both are stronger or weaker in some specific ways perhaps. Reasonable people can differ on who is the most committed to racial justice. But that's ultimately within a very narrow spectrum. Both are staunchly on the right side those issues overall.

And yes, both are white politicians. And probably did not make it as much of a priority as they should have in their campaigns initially. That's a valid critique from BLM. But it apples to all candidates, not just Bernie or Clinton.

Ya know, there are these forces out there that REALLY are racist. They truly are trying to deny civil rights, perpetuate an unfair criminal justice system, and otherwise set back the cause of racial progress.

Why the hell are distracting ourselves from that and all the otehr issues that matter with this internal bickering among allies?

[brooklynite]

1. But, you see, Clinton doesn't REALLY support Civil rights...

She's just pandering.

Or so I've been told.

[Armstead]

2. It's gotten toxic on all sides.

[Hepburn]

5. I have 20 people on ignore

Toxic does not describe it. I have not seen the DU this bad since I joined in April 2004. The nasty remarks, the hatred and the name calling is way over the top.

[tk2kewl]

4. she definitely used divisive language when campaigning against Obama

For me that tips the scale on this issue

[nc4bo]

19. +1. Soured me like milk left out on the counter for a week.

How low can it go? Try tossing raw meat to the cracker set, that's how low. One expects that garbage from the 'Cons, not from a Dem primary candidate.

AND it wasn't just her, her supporters (pumas) were off the chain too. Btw, where have they gone to?

JHC. But, I guess it's all good in the world of politickin', right?

Nope.

[whatchamacallit]

15. Your side jumped in the deep end and set the tone the day Sanders announced.

[brooklynite]

17. And your side set the tone long before that...

[whatchamacallit]

24. I have no idea what you're talking about

[RichVRichV]

51. That literally makes no sense...

[NuclearDem]

52. The day Sanders announced, Sanders supporters celebrated by telling the rest of us

to "have a big cup of shut the fuck up."

Talk about setting the tone.

[jberryhill]

3. It's insane

[cascadiance]

6. Yes, it's hard to say who "started it", but one side swiping the other provokes the other to respond

It seems like Bernie was criticized first for his stance on civil rights, and at times in more unorthodox and sometimes very offensive ways like calling all of us in a "white supremacist" in what many considered a bigoted way. Now they may say that they felt they were provoked in to taking that stance by other comments from some Bernie supporters, so we get in to a big mess as to "who started it", but like you said, the damage it is doing when supporters of both candidates now are trying to appeal to BLM and others, perhaps not to the degree that they might want, but I think certainly either Bernie or Hlilary offer the best way forward than any Republican would.

It almost feels like it was started by some entity, which might not even be tied to either campaign, or for that matter people who are really behind and honorably behind the BLM movement, and surreptitiously started the criticisms from some sector to provoke a lot of reaction and trigger this back and forth, as a means of distracting us from the other big issues in this election as well. Which kind of follows the corporate media's emphasis in only talking about social issues and not many of the other issues that their corporate bosses don't want to have talked about that the 1% doesn't want a populist revolt on that dominates the discussion over other social divisions that have been "created".

It just feels that way. I admit that I've responded negatively at times, as it is hard not to be offended by many of the comments, but I'd like to think that there are just as many honorable and well meaning Hillary supporters out there, as well as BLM members that had these "fights" not been started would rather us have a "team approach" of all of us building a consensus that the party platform should strongly support BLM's movement and issues on racial justice. With all of the division here, I think it is hard to find any real "bigots" here that are here as Dems and progressives. I think we all mostly want the same thing. Let's not get divided on these topics, and help us discuss them in a rational way every way possible so that they get the attention they deserve.

I as a Bernie supporter believe that we're at a time for big changes, not just for the well needed civil rights asked for BLM movement, but so many that require a "political revolution" that he's asking for. Hopefully our party can come together on those issues as well and not ignore them, as so many are out there waiting for us to speak on them before they get engaged and vote this time around.

[Armstead]

10. I've been guilty of it too. That's part of what is making me so pissed

It brings out the worst in all of us.

[AgingAmerican]

7. The racial division is coming from Hillary's camp

Because issues don't matter apparently.

[Armstead]

9. Sorry but you're doing it right now

It's become a feedback loop where one side amps up the other.

(I usually agree with you, so please don't take that personally. It's just that the whole tone that has developed is just awful.)

[AgingAmerican]

12. They first started it with the 'where's Waldo' crap

And it has devolved into accusations of white supremacism and racism leveled against Sanders and his supporters.

Now they are trying to swiftboat based on race. Her supporters have no shame.

You are projecting.

[Skidmore]

26. Seriously.

How old are you? All people asked was that you listen and understand their grievances. That is all.

[AgingAmerican]

29. Strawmen aren't 'grievances'

They are logical fallacies leveled as smears.

[Skidmore]

30. This blindness is exactly why

Sanders is losing the AA community.

[Armstead]

35. Armstead: Note to self: "Leave it alone, leave it alone, leave it alone...don't buy into the loop"

[Skidmore]

36. No one asked you to.

It is a statement of fact, and I will leave it at that.

[Armstead]

37. Please do. I don't want to get sucked into the very thing I complained about

[Ed Suspicious]

41. And there we go. You can't demand people tread lightly

while you stomp your feet.

[cascadiance]

13. Perhaps we can have a little contest for building a small image or emoticon that says "STOP THIS!"

That basically tells those trying to start fights, or those responding and amplifying them to just STOP it and have us getting back to discussing real issues and how the candidate we support has a history of trying to help on some issues, rather than trying to tear the other one down. If we can build up a list of positives for each candidate, then there will be no f'ing way a Republican will get elected, no matter who we nominate.

Then perhaps we can use this emoticon as a way of quickly letting someone know when they're pushing the limits on a discussion without going through a more destructive "alert" process that just amplifies the divisions.

I'll throw in one that I've said before but that I don't think gets enough attention, in that Bernie actually TAUGHT students with disadvantaged backgrounds through Head Start program before he got in to politics as noted here... Hopefully these entities don't try to claim these are dishonest accounts too, but I'd like to think that we can all agree that this was a very great thing he did in life before he was trying to appeal to voters politically, but more out of a sense of personal integrity and self worth.

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-children/

Before his political career, Bernie Sanders taught low-income preschoolers through the Head Start program. Due to this experience, and his commitment to fighting structural causes of wealth and income inequality, Bernie knows that children born into poverty and other difficult situations often do not have easy access to resources that could help them live a happy and productive life. Bernie believes that all children deserve a quality education, affordable healthcare, affordable childcare, and access to nutritious food.

[Armstead]

18. On a lighter note....

Given his cantankerous side, I can just picture him in a room full of preschoolers.

"Hey c'mon now. Knock it off! Quit Yelling! Hey you, over there! Stop Shouting! Hey get back here ya little shit!...."

I jest.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Yes.

The latest meme that Bernie didn't march with MLK is the new birtherism.

Everyone should stop exploiting minorities and using them like political footballs.

Do we really want a repeat of 2008?

[pinstikfartherin]

11. You would think. nt

[whatchamacallit]

14. Would be

in a sane world.

[OKNancy]

16. yes, it should be, but there are a bunch of shit-stirrers

who just LOVE drama. It's stupid and immature.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

20. Hillary LISTENS to

African-Americans and other important disproportionately Democratic constituencies, while Bernie and his supporters mainly LECTURE those constituencies from their various soapboxes. At least those are the impressions I get from the media and the tedious GDP threads on DU. Of course neither Hillary not Bernie is a racist in the Lester Maddox sense. But when do you ever hear about Bernie meeting with Trayvon's mom, or with high-profile minority spokesmen he's partnered with for decades? IMO it just does not make sense to allege false civil-rights equivalency between the two candidates.

[Armstead]

22. Because it has gotten beyond the point of any reasonable discussion

I said in the OP that it is possible to believe that one or the otehr is better in some ways or otehr. If DU were not such a hothouse environment on it, things like that could be reasonably discussed and debated.

But at this point it's all based in lizard-brained emotions, and knee-jerk claims of inferiority or inferiority on the issue. And beating each over the head with it, and excessive drama aand stupid divisiveness that doesn't advance anything.

They both basically at this point in time agree on the fundamental issues and needs and priorities. And both would, if elected, push back against the bad things from the GOP side, and work to advance racial justice.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

27. Wouldn't it be wiser to

try to have 'reasonable discussion and debate' than to try to stifle it? IMO Bernie is a superior soapbox orator, but he's no 'get it done' coalition builder like Hillary, not even in his own tiny home state.

[Armstead]

28. I can't stifle anything

If you think it's possible to go anywhere near the subject without it degenerating into a flame fest, be my guest

[zalinda]

25. He met Sandra Bland's mother

and he didn't even take a selfie of the event. No one would have known about it except for Sandra Bland's mother and friend took pictures and spilled the beans.

He walks the walk. He does the right thing and doesn't crow about it. Not everything is a photo op for him.

Z

[ProgressiveEconomist]

31. Maybe if he did 'crow'

about doing the right thing he wouldn't be plateauing. Hillary's 'photo-ops' seem to be working by portraying her as both sensitive and capable in the eyes of those looking for a spokesperson.

[Fumesucker]

50. That's one of the most discouraging things I've heard here on DU in a while

It means that politics really can't change from the "scalp taking" stage where every encounter, every word, every position is calculated not because it's the right thing to do but because it will play to some constituency or other.

We get the government we deserve.

[jeff47]

34. Which is why BLM is generally happy with his proposals

while Clinton had security escort BLM out.

Makes perfect sense.

[artislife]

53. Not getting the OP....Drink!

[NCTraveler]

21. I enjoyed reading this. Thanks. Nt

[Armstead]

23. Thanks

[Persondem]

32. Nice post. I'll give it a K & R

The other part of this is that I'll bet you 90% of the folks slinging the crap are white. Who do they think they are?

I am glad that's one of the DU controversies I've avoided.

[Armstead]

33. You're wise to stay away from it /nt

[rbrnmw]

38. Thanks Armstead

[Demeter]

39. Well, now, lets think about this for a moment. Which counts more: words, or deeds?

Matthew 7:16 is the sixteenth verse of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount. This verse continues the section warning against false prophets.

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men
gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I'll stick with the one who actually accomplished something, thanks!

[Armstead]

40. My OP was not about whom anyone should support

Just that the nature of the discussions of the issue has gone far beyond the issue itself, and become toxic in nature.

[stupidicus]

42. indeed, it's where we differ that matters

and we know who benefits most from pathetic distractions of this sort -- and it ain't the one advocating against the TPP, for single-payer, etc, etc, etc.

[KittyWampus]

43. This is a Democratic Primary which means African Americans/PoC

will determine the nominee this year and in the future.

So while all three Democratic candidates support African Americans and People of Color, if any of the three candidates fails to get their support to a significant degree, they will lose.

As someone who is neither a Sander or a Clinton supporter, my observation is that Sanders supporters absolutely cannot accept the fact their candidate is not resonating with the Democratic base- SO FAR.

Hence the unrelenting slew of posts about how Bernie is being falsely accused of being a racist.

Next to no one is calling the man a racist.

But to ignore his failure to catch on, SO FAR, with African Americans is a damned important topic.

[Armstead]

47. He has same challenges with sll groups

He is a relative unknown, who has a message that's out of the usual tapioca template of national campaigns, and he's running against someone who has built a powerful poltical brand for 20 years.

Of course it's an uphill battle with all voters who aren't automatically predisposed to his message.

But the distortions about his positions and so-called lack of concern for social justice is just a distortion of who he is, as is theimplications that he has a "problem" with AAs. He has to work hard with every "demographic"

Reasonable discussion or debate is certainly appropriate. . But it has become so inflamed that such discussions devolve here. Tthe forest has been lost for the trees.

[Kalidurga]

44. It's fine by me

I have seen a whole lot of ugly things here. It really tells me who is an ally of the 99% and who supports the status quo.

[Blue_In_AK]

45. You make much too much sense.

[Depaysement]

46. I care much more about class than race

There's no comparison between Bernie and Hillary there.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

48. This is a valuable insight

into why Bernie appears to have plateaued and is not winning African-American or Latino Democrats, in my opinion.

'It's class not race' musr resonate with a sizable number of affirmative action opponents among whites, and leave other Democrats feeling ignored. Not a winning slogan for people suffering longstanding wide racial gaps in wealth, unemployment, health, incarceration, etc., etc.

[Depaysement]

54. Read your last sentence again

And tell me where the logical fallacy lies.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

49. GREAT question 4 Saturday

night's debate:

Is CLASS a better metric for reforming our economy, educational opportunities, and other aspects of society than RACE? Would your administration replace any race-based affirmative action policies with class-based policies? Which ones?

[Armstead]

55. You're making it binary

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time