Salon: "Hillary Not Electable in General Campaign"

[berni_mccoy]

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/10/im_a_bernie_sanders_voter_who_will_not_support_hillary_clinton_here_are_10_reasons_why/

According to CBS News, an alarming percentage of Democrats either won’t vote for Hillary Clinton or would only support her nomination to prevent a Republican from winning:

Just under half of Democratic primary voters nationwide say they would enthusiastically support Clinton if she became the party’s nominee. Twenty-seven percent would support her with some reservations and another 11 percent would only back her because she is the nominee. Fourteen percent would not support her in a general election.

When under half of Democrats would “enthusiastically support” Clinton and 27% would only do so “because she is the nominee,” even Democrats planning to vote for the former Secretary of State hold reservations.

Then, there are 14% who will not support her in a general election; this figure could easily increase. Also, not only will a sizable percentage of Democrats refuse to vote for Clinton, but 57% of Americans find Clinton “not honest and trustworthy.”

In addition, Clinton’s negative favorability ratings in 9 out of 10 national polls make her unelectable as a candidate in a general election. If you can name a presidential candidate in American history who voters both didn’t trust and didn’t like, I’d love to hear the name.

...snip...

The truth is that Sanders defeats Trump by a wider margin than Clinton in a general election. As for Iowa and New Hampshire, according to an October 5, 2015 NBC News article titled Sanders Outperforms Clinton in General Election Matchups in IA, NH, recent polls show Bernie Sanders more than capable of winning a general election:

[BootinUp]

1. H.A. Goodman!!!

This should really be posted in the Lounge for entertainment though.

[DinahMoeHum]

109. You mean, for shits and giggles.

n/t

[kelliekat44]

155. With the bashing of Hillary here we are helping the GOP have a clean sweep in 2016. The GOP is

bashing her in their debates and we are adding to their bashing here. Good work.
Christie is focusing on Hillary and bringing the rest of the group along. The way they are lying about the economy ougt to give the Dems a field day to refute each of their statements one by one. But we won't.

[DinahMoeHum]

182. Too many on our side have a severe case of I call. . .

. . .the "Nothing-But-The-Best-For-The-Oppressed Syndrome".

Once again, I bring forth the words of a real progressive, the late, great Doris "Granny D" Haddock:

http://www.alternet.org/story/15789/don't_stand_in_the_way_of_our_joy

(snip)
There are many among us on the peace trail who will not support a candidate unless that candidate is perfect on every issue. Politics is about winning. For us, it is about winning to save lives and raise people up from poverty and illness and loneliness and injustice. Those posturing on the left sometimes forget that. Don't tell me that you can't support a particular candidate because of this or that. This isn't about you and your precious political standards. It is about saving nature and our people. We are coming out to win, so please don't stand in our way. When we have reasonable people in power, let us start our arguments again, for we can not move forward unless we have a decent government underneath us and a Bill of Rights to let us speak freely.
(snip)

(*the boldface emphasis is mine)

As far as I'm concerned:
Political purity is bullshit.
Political perfectionism is bullshit.
THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS WINNING.

I say all this as a Bernie Sanders supporter who will nonetheless support Hillary Clinton for POTUS if she wins the Democratic nomination.

[One of the 99]

183. Great post!

You should post this as an OP. A lot here need to read this.

[heaven05]

189. +1000

should be an OP-I will vote for the Democratic Party candidate, period.

[BlueCaliDem]

201. PLEASE consider making this an OP.

Key here:

[center][font color="red" size="14" face="face"]POLITICS IS ABOUT WINNING[/font][/center]

[renate]

227. that's very good

Especially coming from such a respected source. Thanks!

[LW1977]

226. Spot-on

I lean more Bernie, but if Hillary will not get you the polls, enjoy a President Trump, and a couple more Jusctice Scalias!

[roguevalley]

129. I think her 'inevitability' run up to announcing and the annointing

aspect of the Bush/Clinton thing didn't help her. I think there are enough people out there who are FED UP with bullshit and she is going to be their project. They want to vote for someone they want, rather than the creature the media and money offer.

[BootinUp]

158. Thats ok

People who really care will come around.

[jkbRN]

212. I really care,

And that's the exact reason why I will certainly NOT come around. Proud part of the 14%

[Dustlawyer]

224. Thats good to know!

Feel the Bern!

[olegramps]

194. An important question is how is Bernie going to win without the support of the minorities.

This groups, the African Americans and Hispanics, may very well not even show up if Bernie can't win their support. At the present, Hillary is the hands down favorite among this important group and he has little to no support.

As to the often quoted statistic that Hillary is not trust worthy; well you can thank the Republican smear campaign concerning her e-mails and Benghazism and the MSM's Headline coverage of every lie they told. It was a brilliant campaign that was so effective that even a large segment of Democrats have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Remember that she was admired by both the Democrats and Republicans for her work as senator and Secretary of State until she became a front runner for the nomination. I see people who claim to be Democrats on this board gloating over the results of the slim bag Republicans in discrediting her.

[BlueCaliDem]

203. I've been told here

that he'll make up the loss of the minority vote with young, newly registered voters. Because we know how reliable a demographic they are.

As to the often quoted statistic that Hillary is not trust worthy; well you can thank the Republican smear campaign concerning her e-mails and Benghazism and the MSM's Headline coverage of every lie they told. It was a brilliant campaign that was so effective that even a large segment of Democrats have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

And oft-repeated here on DU by Sanders supporters...or supposed Sanders supporters. Some really dislike Hillary Clinton as much as they've disliked President Obama and are supporting Sanders as a protest vote. Some are simply desperate to see Sanders become president and don't care whether he'd be an effective president or if he harms the Democratic Party brand. And then there are those who come here and pretend to be Democrats and Sanders supporters, walking the fine line of posting Republican talking points (the untrustworthy one is one of them) as a question. These know that the GOP is terrified of Hillary Clinton winning the Democratic nomination because then they'll have to face a formidable Democratic foe who enjoys huge approval numbers amongst Blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, and Asian Americans, and who doesn't take prisoners - much like them.

You can fool some of the people some of the tine, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Thank GOD for minorities who keep a cooler head when deciding who they'll vote for.

[Vincardog]

221. Do you seriously think POC will vote for TRUMP over Bernie? Child PLEASE

[olegramps]

232. Please reread what I wrote. They may not show up to vote. Period.

If they don't have a candidate that they believe will protect them and advance their issues, then they very well would have no reason to take the extra effort to challenge the Republican's campaign to disenfranchise them and compel them to stand in line for hours to get registered and then again to vote. Just because the minorities don't identify with a Democratic candidate doesn't translate that they would vote for any Republican.

[Vincardog]

233. Right they would rather stand in line for hours to vote for the candidate that helped push 3 strike

and 'truth in sentencing' laws. I will take BS civil rightws record oven any other candidate.

[olegramps]

235. I have absolutely no problem with his civil rights record.

The point is that at the present the minorities favor Clinton. Some how he has to win them over to succeed.

[Vincardog]

236. I am sure he will overcome any perceived lack of favor. I don't worry about specious claims.

I believe the POC support will be there when the choice is BS or some ass hatter.

[leveymg]

160. Ad hominem. No meaningful respone on the merits of the issue

[BootinUp]

161. Waste of time. nt

[Purveyor]

2. I've been saying this for months. eom

[Aerows]

7. Many people have.

She lost once, let's pray she loses the Primary so that she doesn't cost us the GE.

[Purveyor]

22. I fear 2016 is going to be a fucking train wreck straight down

the ticket for dems.

No way in hell will hillary carry Michigan...

[Aerows]

95. She is absolutely going to be a train wreck

straight down the ticket if she wins the nomination. I can't believe how the people that detested her in 2007-8 are suddenly acting as though anything about her has changed.

There are reasons why President Obama won the election, and frankly, those exact reasons made him a better President. He dodged the bullets of sending boots into every hotspot the Republicans called for.

One thing he said that struck me more than anything during his campaign, and it has stayed with me even when he does shit like the TPP.

"I love this country too much."

Despite his failings, he has proved that, and has stayed true to his word about not dragging us into every damn war there is to be fought.

A Hillary Clinton presidency is not, in my humble opinion, to the benefit of our country and the people who comprise our nation. I believe Bernie Sanders is the voice we need to ween us off of war and to instead, start taking care of business at home.

[Hepburn]

62. Amen

We nominate Hillary and in January we welcome one of the Repuke crazies as POTUS.

[abelenkpe]

152. Wait. What?

You don't think she'll win after being rejected in 2008?

[leveymg]

163. So have I. She's had high negatives among Indys since '08

Have yet to hear a meaningful response to that from her supporters.

[bravenak]

3. Bernie cannot win the primary at the rate he is polling.

[randys1]

6. THe article linked promotes the idea of NOT voting for Hillary

[bravenak]

9. Is that allowed?

[MohRokTah]

13. Wasn't that the sort of thing that got a long time DUer banned? eom

[bravenak]

17. That one was worse, I think.

Or the rules are not really firm.

[MohRokTah]

24. The title of the linked article is just as bad. Eom

[restorefreedom]

26. this is analysis, not advocacy

big difference

[MohRokTah]

28. The linked article is advocacy. eom

[restorefreedom]

36. i disagree. i think it walks a line, but

it is a critical analysis of a candidate's policy positions, with the following commentary a prediction of voter behavior.

i am not admin, but imo it doesn't violate the tos as presented.

[MohRokTah]

43. We'll just have to wait until the Admins weigh in, then. eom

[restorefreedom]

121. yup. nt

[berni_mccoy]

173. Guess we have our answer then

[Plucketeer]

222. Repeatedly brushing off

that pesky little bug.

[Historic NY]

130. Its not a fine line when people keep shoveling the SOS from this moron....

who is actually a Rand Paul supporter.

[restorefreedom]

133. people are capable of thinking for themselves

no article should push anyone to change their support.

[leftofcool]

14. Well, "other" things are so I guess this is as well.

[bravenak]

19. Many 'other' things.

[berni_mccoy]

29. "Other" things...

Like your nonstop complaints about anyone who doesn't agree with you. Unfortunately that's allowed.

[leftofcool]

44. And it is just sad

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. Only for the special people here, sis.

EOM

[DisgustipatedinCA]

149. Salon is and always has been an allowed source here.

That's not in question, nor will it be.

[merrily]

102. The article shows why Dems should vote for Bernie in the primary. And Goodman says why

he can't support Hillary. He can't force anyone to follow him.

[madokie]

135. Merrily I will vote for her in the general if I have too

and do it with all the gusto I can muster but I'll be holding my nose when I do. I'm tired of the way things are and with her at the helm it will only be more of the same. Anyone who can't see that is blind, in my book anyway

I really wanted to vote for Hillary all those years ago but I just couldn't once I started paying attention to what she was saying and doing and voted for our present President both in the primary and the General. I really want to see a woman President but not just for the sake of having a woman President.

I know a lot of people of all persuasions and not a single one of them likes or better yet, trust, Hillary. Same as I was hearing back then when she lost to Obama.

[merrily]

137. I could not agree more madokie--but keep that to yourself.

Because I've flat out refused to take the oath, many here are convinced that I've said I won't vote for her in the general and I don't want them to catch on that they're delusional.

[restorefreedom]

23. its ironic isnt it?

hillary seems to be doing well primary wise but would have massive problems in a ge. om and sanders are not killng it (yet) in the primaries yet both would probably do very well and win a ge.

weird wild stuff.

[berni_mccoy]

41. This election breaks traditional thinking because it is anti establishment

[restorefreedom]

42. yes, and it is so amazing to watch. nt

[Chan790]

101. Right up until we lose the White House...

because the Hillary cultists won't abandon her no matter how much she stands to fucks us in the GE. No matter how unelectable she is; no matter how much of a DINO she proves herself to be. That's that question you can't get an answer to out of any Clinton cultist: "What does Hillary have to say or do for you to say 'You know what, fuck you...I'm done with your fake Democrat shit.' and change your support to someone who can win and isn't a pretender Democrat?"

There isn't anything. She could come out and say that she agrees with Marge Schott about how awesome Hitler was and endorse the overturn of Roe v. Wade...and they'd with all certainty find a way to pretzel themselves to still support her because their support is borne of nothing but personality cult.

It's like their inured against reality and sanity about how fucking godawful their candidate is. She's bad for progressive values, her economic policies are horrible for women and children. She's doubly bad for women and children in parts of the globe where there is oil the MIC covets and can start a war to secure. Unless you're Jamie Dimon, it's hard to see who Hillary is good for.

♪Hillary, what is she good for? Absolutely nothin'!♪

(Actually, if you substitute "Hillary" for every occurrence of "War" in War by Edwin Starr, other than being rhythmically-awkward and slightly grammar-mangled...it's pretty spot-on as a statement-of-fact.)

[restorefreedom]

123. sadly i can find no fault

with your reasoning. if hillary is the nom we are rightly and truly screwed.

[redstateblues]

213. What a stupid insulting post

Posts like this are why Bernie's supporters get a bad name. Your whole cultist meme is fucking ridiculous. Because I'm voting for HRC you call me a cultist? I'm voting for Hillary because she is the only Democrat running that can win the nomination and the GE. I like her position on the issues and whether you like to admit it or not she is an authentic Democrat. I like Bernie but I'm voting for Hillary. If somehow Bernie miraculously wins the nomination I will vote for him-but it's not gonna happen.

[ozone_man]

142. Exactly!

If Bernie can make it to the general election, I think he will have a much better chance than Hillary. There are libertarians and left wingers who will vote for him, not so for Hillary.

[merrily]

153. In Vermont, 25% of registered Republicans vote for him as well.

According to a segment of DU though, Republicans voting for a Democrat is a bad thing, while a Republican VP for a Democrat VP might not be such a bad thing. Go figure.

"I'll retire to Bedlam."

[ozone_man]

166. I have seen that here

In Vermont.

Yes, Bernie wins 70% of the vote here, and that includes a significant Republican vote. He speaks the truth, and people of very different political backgrounds often vote for him. They know when they hear the truth, even if it sounds like hell sometimes.

[merrily]

167. Look at me, trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs. Sorry!

[Bubzer]

195. Polls dont win elections... votes do.

[randys1]

4. The endless attacks are something to behold. I have to give it to Karl, he has orchestrated

an amazing outcome.

Well, not over yet, but if he manages to convince Democrats not to vote for a Democrat, he will be the winner, indeed.

[berni_mccoy]

11. What attacks?

[randys1]

18. Oh my

I’m a Bernie Sanders voter who will not support Hillary Clinton: Here are 10 reasons why

A my way or the highway attitude sure is self defeating.

[berni_mccoy]

25. That's the authors opinion which I didn't quote

I only quoted the information that show she's not electable. Those are facts.

And if you see that as an attack then you have very thin skin.

[randys1]

27. IT says she is not electable? If it says that, then it is even worse rightwing bullshit

than I thought.

I thought that was YOUR comment.

[berni_mccoy]

30. The article uses facts to support the claim.

You know. Facts. Like the very polls you Hillary SuperFANS post nonstop.

[randys1]

33. so who is claiming she is NOT electable? YOU or the article, using those exact words?

[berni_mccoy]

34. The facts show it.

The facts are shown in the article. I quoted the facts in the article.

[randys1]

35. So it is you, and no the facts dont show any such thing, but more importantly is your

promoting the idea on Democratic Underground that the LEADING DEMOCRATIC candidate for the WH

CANT WIN

Now do you see the problem with that?

Do you understand what this place is supposed to be about?

You cant, otherwise you would NEVER do this...would you!

[berni_mccoy]

38. Oh my.

Someone is very upset at the facts.

[randys1]

45. No, I am upset that you are on Democratic Underground promoting the idea that our

candidate cant win the election.

Nobody should be saying that about any of our candidates

[berni_mccoy]

46. I'm reporting facts, plain and simple.

And these facts show that Sanders is more electable than Clinton.

[randys1]

50. Oh wait, now you are changing what you are saying, how about revising the thread title then

[berni_mccoy]

54. Nope. Still reporting facts there too

[randys1]

58. No, nothing factual about yout comment, but you know that. What your comment is

though is PROMOTING the idea that one of our two leading candidates cant win.

This flies in the face of the very reason for the existence of this forum.

[jwirr]

89. Do you attack Clinton supporters when they say the same

about Bernie without any facts?

[randys1]

90. That he cant win, I will and have whenever I see it.

It is a MUCH bigger problem when the candidate with the lead is being talked about like this, though.

Well, it is a problem if your goal is NOT to elect GOP, that is.

[jwirr]

97. I actually think that this "s/he can't win" meme is dangerous

whoever it is coming from. But I also know that Salon is a very progressive magazine and did show some facts.

[Ino]

180. Is it OK when Hillary does it?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/candidate-clint.html

Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and former President Bill Clinton are making very direct arguments to Democratic superdelegates, starkly insisting Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., cannot win a general election against presumptive Republican nominee, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. Sources with direct knowledge of the conversation between Sen. Clinton and Gov. Bill Richardson, D-N.M., prior to the Governor's endorsement of Obama say she told him flatly, "He cannot win, Bill. He cannot win."

Or how about if Hillary says the Repuke candidate would be a better president than her Democratic rival... is that OK?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/03/03/468110/-Hillary-McCain-would-be-better-than-Obama-UPDATED

Hillary Clinton told reporters that both she and the presumtive Republican nominee John McCain offer the experience to be ready to tackle any crisis facing the country under their watch, but Barack Obama simply offers more rhetoric. "I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say," she said. "He’s never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002."

[merrily]

98. Not that I've noticed--and he claims to be a supporter of and worker for Sanders.

[Cal33]

112. I think you reported not only the facts, but also the conclusion you came to based on

those facts. I see nothing wrong in your having done both.

[riversedge]

52. Only in your bernie bubble.

[berni_mccoy]

55. Hillary fans are losing their minds over the very polls

They cite day in and day out.

[randys1]

60. Your comment is LITERALLY doing the work for the GOP, LITERALLY

CONVINCE THE PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE


that is how they win elections, or steal them

[berni_mccoy]

64. How about voting for Sanders? That's what is also said in the post.

It shows he is more electable and that Clintons unfavorable ratings are lower than any candidate in history.

[randys1]

67. Not the point. Just say this, say "you know what, you are right"

I dont want to help the GOP put a prick in the WH, and while I am not thrilled at all about Hillary, she sure would be better than them.

And sure, I will vote for Bernie etc

[ibegurpard]

71. And that's the problem

You are pushing her so hard you can't see the danger of all the people who are not enthused about her or flat out don't like her. She can't win the general.

[randys1]

72. Another poster on DU saying the leading candidate cant win. You cant do that here.

Dont you get that?

That rightwing garbage is not allowed HERE

[ibegurpard]

73. read the polls in the article

You like polls don't you? What you are doing is called whistling past the graveyard. Kerry fans did it in 04.

[randys1]

74. GOP steals elections by convincing people their vote doesnt count or matter.

You are doing that here.

period

[merrily]

147. If she has electability problems, it's far better to ventilate that before the primary.

I picked Obama in November 2007 solely because I thought he had the best shot in the general. This is when you look at that.

Enough trying to stifle legitimate political discourse! Ya wanna know what's really right wing? That is.

[TommyCelt]

199. "You can't do that here"....

Are you serious?

Democrats who STRONGLY prefer BS to HRC and voicing their concerns about HRC's electability in the general aren't allowed to "do that here"??? That their legitimate concerns about this election and the direction of the party is "right wing garbage"???

Fuck you.

[Cal33]

118. What you wrote above "Only in your bernie bubble" is also stating your opinion based

on facts (McCoy's statements), and you are entitled to your opinion. Nothing wrong
with that, either.

[99th_Monkey]

78. "our candidate"? don't you mean your candidate? Hint: the Primary isn't over quite yet.

and the OP presents data to support how Hilary is less than electable in the GE.

Clintonistas are constantly saying this about Bernie, that "A Socialist will NEVER win in the GE" and do
so without offering any evidence that I've seen.

[randys1]

85. NOBODY should be saying that ANY of our candidates cant win. Period

And hillary and bernie are OUR candidates, if they are not YOUR candidates then you are on the wrong website

[Paka]

139. Please wait until she is the nominee...

..to call her "our candidate." Right now she is simply one of three possible candidates. There is still time for a lot to change.

[Lordquinton]

207. You're kidding, right

Are you that unaware?

[randys1]

215. Unaware of what, that Hillary cant win the election? Is that what you mean?

[Lordquinton]

219. That you lambaste Bernie supporters for calling Hillary unelectible

when it's practically a signature line for Hillary supporters that Bernie is unelectible.

There is no consistency there

[Ed Suspicious]

106. Are you commenting on an article you didn't fucking read?

[randys1]

108. Oh i read it, and the NOT ELECTABLE wasnt in it, which is why I pointed that out over

and over.

Did YOU read it?

(this makes it even worse, that it wasnt just the OP comment that she is unelectable but GARBAGE articles linked to on DU would say that...)


actually this is what it says

In addition, Clinton’s negative favorability ratings in 9 out of 10 national polls make her unelectable as a candidate in a general election. If you can name a presidential candidate in American history who voters both didn’t trust and didn’t like, I’d love to hear the name.

Which is just pure propaganda rightwing bullshit.

Since she is anything but UNELECTABLE, this shouldnt even have been allowed to be posted here!

I shoudlnt have to read an article on DEMOCRATIC FUCKING UNDERGROUND that has as its thesis that the main DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE IS FUCKING UNELECTABLE

when will you GET THIS!

[Ed Suspicious]

111. The assertion is there.

"Clinton’s negative favorability ratings in 9 out of 10 national polls make her unelectable as a candidate in a general election."

[randys1]

113. Yes, and ALL the more reason the article shouldnt even be here.

dont you get that yet?

What is your goal?

Do you care what happens if Bernie isnt the nominee?

[Ed Suspicious]

116. .

"Salon is a progressive website created by David Talbot in 1995 and part of Salon Media Group (OTCQB: SLNM). It focuses on U.S. politics and current affairs from a progressive perspective, and on reviews and articles about music, books and films."[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(website)

[randys1]

120. And the article linked said HILLARY CANT WIN, might as well be Free Republic

[Ed Suspicious]

122. But it wasn't. It was from "progressive" Salon.

I think we're done here.

[Fuddnik]

124. Why are you trying to elect Ben Carson?

[randys1]

126. Nice try, but it is well known here that I support the Democratic candidate.

[marble falls]

191. This was PM'd to me and I'd like to share it:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

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On Wed Nov 11, 2015, 10:41 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

The endless attacks are something to behold. I have to give it to Karl, he has orchestrated
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=791568

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[Betty Karlson]

192. I am afraid Clinton did this all to herself.

She is a follower, not a leader, and too many don't trust her "evolving", "new information", "I'll tell you when I am ready to take a position", and so on.

[George II]

196. Ditto!

[JaneyVee]

5. Bernie Not Even Electable In Primary.

[randys1]

21. Maybe not, but the GOP agenda is to destroy Hillary before we find out who is electable.

Then, if Bernie is the nominee, the talk will all change over night.

[SunSeeker]

63. Exactly. Sanders has been spared the GOP onslaught up to now, while Hillary has been viciously hit.

Last edited Tue Nov 10, 2015, 07:18 PM - Edit history (1)

The fact that her numbers have not fallen more is testament to her strong candidacy. The GOP desperately want Bernie to win the nomination.

[Cal33]

138. I think the GOP is deliberately avoiding mentioning Bernie in order to help keep his

name unknown to the public for as long as possible. They can do this very well
because they own 90% of the news media. But Bernie is becoming better known
by the day. And those who hear him are fascinated by what he has to say. I
believe the GOP is afraid of him.

There are nearly 3 months to the first Dem. Primaries (Feb. 1), plus 4-1/2 months
more to the last one on June 12, 2016.

[SunSeeker]

174. If the GOP is afraid of Bernie, why are they attacking Hillary and donating to Bernie?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420262/republicans-should-help-bernie-sanders-weaken-hillary-myra-adams

http://nationalreport.net/gop-leader-republicans-donate-heavily-bernie-sanders/

[Cal33]

204. Priebus probably has some trick up his sleeve with an ulterior motive, I guess. Sanders has stated

that he would not accept any donations from business corporations. I've read that just recently
he returned a donation from someone (there was no mention of who the donor was).

[Cali_Democrat]

8. Well.....then if that's true and Bernie loses to someone who can't win the general

then Bernie would have been an even worse choice.

At least Hillary would have made it to the general. Bernie wouldn't have even made it that far.

[berni_mccoy]

10. Nope. Bernie polls better against the repubs because he doesn't act like one

[Cali_Democrat]

12. If Bernie is so great...

he should at least be able to win the Democratic primary against someone who acts like a Republican and is unelectable in the general election.

[berni_mccoy]

15. Don't worry..

The election isn't over. In fact it hasn't started yet. But if you want to run on polls go ahead. There are only one set of polls that count.

[OilemFirchen]

117. Huh?

"if you want to run on polls go ahead."

That's exactly what you've been doing throughout this thread.

So if you want to run on polls go ahead. Those same polls which you and Goodman believe to show Clinton as unelectable in the GE show Sanders absolutely unelectable in the Primary.

[merrily]

56. No. Apply logic before you post.

[Cali_Democrat]

66. GOP nominee, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders

According to the OP, the GOP nominee will beat Hillary because she's "not electable in general campaign."

If Hillary beats Bernie...then:

The GOP nominee beats Hillary who beats Bernie.

GOP nominee > Hillary > Bernie.

At least according to the OP.

[merrily]

69. Nope. Try again.

[Cali_Democrat]

70. ...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. As a dispassionate observer I am compelled to admit none of the points you made...

As a dispassionate observer I am compelled to admit none of the points you made were effectively refuted.

Well played.

[Babel_17]

186. :)

Rock crushes Scissors, which cut Paper. Paper would have covered Rock.

Paper 2016! Feel the Cut!

[Chitown Kev]

16. Richard Nixon

I don't think that most of the country trusted or liked Richard Nixon in 1968.

That may have been been true in 1960.

I'm not comparing Clinton to Nixon, I'm just answering the question.

[berni_mccoy]

20. Incomparable elections.

[Chitown Kev]

107. I don't think that we know this, yet.

[jeff47]

39. Nixon had a 55.8% favorability rating in his first term.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/116677/presidential-approval-ratings-gallup-historical-statistics-trends.aspx

Yes, after the 1968 campaign, but it's the data I could find.

[Chitown Kev]

105. Yes, people thought that Nixon was a executive

From much of what I have read of that era (liberal and conservative), people did not like or trust Nixon, though. I thought that was the criterion here.

[jeff47]

171. "Not like" would not give him that high a favorability rating. (nt)

[zeemike]

154. No but a look at the Dems running against him is interesting.

After the fiasco of the 68 national convention in Chicago...where the power politics rammed through Hubert Humphrey who was establishment, like Clinton...and 68 was an anti establishment year.

[kristopher]

200. +1 How soon some forget.

[nashville_brook]

31. Results of your Jury Service -- 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Tue Nov 10, 2015, 04:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Salon: "Hillary Not Electable in General Campaign"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251791536

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The article linked advocates withholding votes from Hillary Clinton should she be nominated. This is a direct violation of TOS and a similar link in an original post resulted in the Admins banning the offender.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Nov 10, 2015, 04:13 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I didn't read it, but if it advocates not voting it should be banned. The alerter had better have been truthful.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The article is silly nonsense ... a fantasy of the far left and the right wing .... but its not really hide worthy.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: the article does NOT advocate withholding votes in the general, it states that those votes likely can't be counted in a representative sample. it's dishonest to cast this as a TOS violation and the alert itself should be reviewed as abusive.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an article from salon. Why do some Hillary supporters feel such a constant need to police the speech of others?

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[berni_mccoy]

37. Alert fail.

Another badge to wear.

[Catherina]

49. Yeah but compare juror 2 to juror 6. Too close.

My starting premise with alerts is to never trust the alerter and read everything for myself before deciding. That was too close because of a dishonest alert.

[berni_mccoy]

53. Dishonest alerting is prevalent in GDP this election cycle

[JoePhilly]

75. I was Juror #5, you can thank me later.

[berni_mccoy]

172. Thanks.

[Catherina]

103. No kidding. But that's ok, we're gonna win despite the little tricks n/t

[nashville_brook]

91. i was 6 -- i believe this was a dishonest alert, and anyone *should* be able to see that

if they're willing to do their job as a juror.

[Puglover]

188. I came across this juror comment yesterday.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The OP is a racist. The only people who don't admit it are other racist posters.

It was about Prism's OP.

I alerted TOS on it. I'd be very curious to know if that juror is still eligible to serve.

[Catherina]

198. I'll bet you 100:1 that they are given the partisanship n/t

[d_r]

47. wow

seriously juror #2?

[Catherina]

51. Trusting the prosecution. Total fail n/t

[ibegurpard]

57. juror #2

Said they didn't read it but if it said what alerter said it said should be hidden...then voted to hide...
Please remove yourself from jury service.

[Hepburn]

81. Totally agree

Lately, it seems I have done Jury Service about once a day. I not only read the objected to post, but read a great deal of the thread around it. I cannot believe that someone would just vote to hide it "just in case" it might be bad.

So wrong. JMHO

[merrily]

61. Some juror should alert on these results. Juror 2 should not sit on juries if he or she is not

willing to read the post alerted on and simply takes the word of the alerter.* And the alerter is someone who alerts on an analysis from a liberal source and, on top of that, mischaracterizes the article. Big clues right there.

*BTW, I'm not sure I believe that is what Juror 2 did. Other possibility: saw the article did NOT do what the alerter claimed, but wanted to hide, so pretended to be going strictly by the word of the alert. Either way...

[bunnies]

77. Pretty pathetic to constantly try to get people banned.

I cant stand authoritarians.

[TM99]

104. Holy Shit!

Juror #2 should be barred from all future juries.

They didn't even read the fucking post in question. They 'trusted' the alerter to be truthful. WTF?!

[Android3.14]

140. And the Thought-less Police fail again

This alert should be flagged as abusive.

[Doctor_J]

177. lol juror number two.

I didn't read it but hide it

[MisterP]

209. "I didn't read it" "I don't care what the issues are" "I don't want to debate, I want to talk about

my PAIN!"

[Adrahil]

32. I guess I can't post my opinion of Goodman....

... or some Bernie supporter will get their knickers in a twist and alert me like the last time I did.

[merrily]

80. You got alerted on for criticizing an professional author who is not a DUer? Seems implausible.

[Adrahil]

87. You can check out my transparency page. See for yourself.

Not to be fair, i was frank in my opinion.

[merrily]

92. Your transparency is not available to DUers other than yourself right now.

Transparency page not displayed

This member's Transparency page is not displayed because they have had fewer than five posts hidden by Jury in the last 90 days.

[Adrahil]

93. I did not know that!

If you're really interested, I can link the post.

[Adrahil]

94. Here ya go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=786793

[merrily]

96. I am going to guess you should have used a name. I would never have hidden any criticism of a

professional writer who was not also a DUer (such as Pitt or Leser), no matter how crude. However, with no name, your post could have been interpreted as aimed at the OP. That's all I can think of.

[Adrahil]

99. I appreciate the advice. I will. But i know another reason....

... and it pisses me off. But I appreciate your post. Thanks!

[merrily]

100. You're welcome.

Listen, we've all been there. I once wrote a post so sarcastic that I actually decided against used the sarcasm emote because I thought using it would be too insulting to DUers. Something about shame on Wendy Davis for trying to get funding for elementary schools when those slacking kids should stop doing nothing in school and get out there creating jobs. At least one sad poster thought I was a Republican. The rest who voted to hide knew very well I was being sarcastic, but decided to teach me a lesson for being "leftier than thou." And actually said so in their jury comments.

My other hide I knew was coming. I said F.U. to a DUer. At the moment, it seemed worth a hide. Now, I love him. So, I learned that lesson, as well.

[FlatBaroque]

131. I'm becoming a big fan of yours

[merrily]

134. Thanks! Let's elope.

Too soon?

[FlatBaroque]

141. LOL

Meet you in Vegas

[merrily]

144. What happens on the message board, stays on the message board.

[FlatBaroque]

146. You are a great asset to Bernie.

[merrily]

151. Whew. So many compliments! I usually hear that stuff only

after I start talking to myself. Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

40. If the party wants to win, they will back the candidate who has enough crossover appeal

to beat any Republican they have.

Bernie is already trouncing Trump, who says he wants Hillary to be the nominee, AND Carson and if they buy the nomination for Bush, he will beat him too.

[Nay]

214. May I also add that, IMHO, Clinton will not bring out gobs of certain

voters that Obama did -- I do not expect the AA vote to be large, the youth vote to be large, nor do I expect that there will be a huge turnout of women for Clinton. Why not women? Well, maybe it's just me living in the South, but large numbers of women who are anti-abortion/religious/stand-by-your-man types always vote Republican here. All three of my sisters-in-law would never vote for a Democrat (and none of them live in the South! They live out west!) and I can't imagine they are the only ones.

I DO think Sanders will have crossover appeal with some Pubs and lots of independents and youths, all of whom are sick of the way things are going. Our one Repub friend is voting for Bernie.

I have no idea what Hispanics as a group will do; I'd wager that their turnout will be about what it usually is. (Not as big as the one-off Obama elections.)

It's not fair that Clinton has had to deal with 25 years of outrageous Republican lies like Whitewater, Foster, travelgate, etc., but that's the result of the Democratic leadership being damned wishy-washy about slamming Pubs right in the face whenever they spout that crap. Lyndon Johnson would have had those Pubs off whimpering in a corner after he was done with them.

[sabrina 1]

217. Oh yes he will, he has already! He's FURTHER ahead in bringing out those who had given up on the

system than Obama was at this point. And just writing this response to your comment feels like deja vu because as an Obama supporter back then at this point, I was responding to similar comments which were asking for sympathy for Hillary, claiming Obama could not get the numbers etc etc.

I am as confident now as I was then, that Bernie, like Obama is ENERGIZING people across the political spectrum and has a better chance of defeating Republicans than Hillary.

[riversedge]

48. Lordy lordy. H. A Goodman moves his pile of poop from Huff post to Salon.

Still stinks.



Tuesday, Nov 10, 2015 11:12 AM CST
I’m a Bernie Sanders voter who will not support Hillary Clinton: Here are 10 reasons why
Based on her foreign policy, Wall Street support and general judgement, this Bernie backer can't back Hillary
H.A. Goodman

[merrily]

65. More ridiculous source shaming. You named two liberal sources. Your real complaint is anything

critical of Hillary.

[riversedge]

79. Not slamming the source but vile stupid Goodman!!

[merrily]

83. Who has been published by 2 liberal sites. Sticking with your issue seems to be criticism of HRC.

[riversedge]

88. They both do their share of Hit pieces on Hillary. But as I said, I was not dissing the

sites. Enough said on my part since you just want to push a silly falsehood. bye bye

[paleotn]

136. You're saying anything the least bit critical of Hillary...

is a hit piece? Seems the general theme lately. Reminds me of another group of candidates....those, um....it's on the tip of my tongue....you know, those crazy guys.

[MADem]

170. What kind of IDIOT gets BANNED from REDDIT! ROFL!!!!

This guy is the tool to end all tools:

Sadly, I also wouldn't have been banned from Reddit. However, this is 2016 and I explain in this YouTube video why I'm only voting for Bernie Sanders and why I will not vote for Hillary Clinton or Trump.

He sounds like a petulant two year old!

[ibegurpard]

59. She will decimate us in Montana

We stand to lose a number of statewide Democrats. She polls worse here than Obama.

[Hepburn]

68. People in general are NOT neutral on Hillary

There is a ton of hatred out there directed towards her. This will defeat her in the GE. She simply cannot be elected. I am listening to MSNBC and it was just stated that even Carson leads her in the polls. PREZ CARSON!?!?!?!?! OMFG!

[humbled_opinion]

114. I see you understand just

how incredibly dangerous running the wrong candidate will be....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. " O K "

EOM

[stonecutter357]

86. .

[humbled_opinion]

110. Totally agree with OP

I have been saying for awhile the question for Democratic voters is why would they chose to run a flawed establishment candidate in an ant-establishment election cycle..... My hope is that in the end when votes are cast many will open their eyes and see the absolute stunningly clear choice that is before them..... Bernie will be the Democratic nominee...

[AzDar]

115. K & R

[BlueJazz]

119. I WILL vote for the democrat in the elections. Period. As I write this I'm having a major argument..

...with a friend who commented "It depends who is the candidate" I'm all over his ass.

[The_Casual_Observer]

125. The %'s looked pretty favorable for Hillary in spite of how the author was spinning them

Would anyone expect anything else at this point?

[hollowdweller]

127. The general is a long way off but the polling Hillary VS Crazy Republicans worries me.

I'm for Bernie.

However the fact that Hillary is so close to the GOP candidates in the polls worries me.

Is it just the country is so divided and the election will be decided by a slim margin or is she really weak? I don't know.

I want Bernie to win but Hillary is killing him in the democratic realm right now, so if she continues to lead in the primaries I want her to be stronger against the GOP.

My hope would be in a debate head to head she would seem so much more capable she would open a huge lead in the polls in the general, but I'll be nervous till she moves up.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

128. Can you imagine having Hillary lose to Trump?

[Historic NY]

132. Except Trump will eventually implode....

its inevitiable, he always does.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

148. You're probably right. After all, Hillary's done that too.

[Historic NY]

168. She is leading Trump with a 15 point margin in case you did know.....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/9/1447820/-McClatchy-Marist-Poll-Hillary-Clinton-Leads-All-Republicans-Nationally

[Spitfire of ATJ]

169. It's still early.

[Metric System]

143. How does this H.A. Goodman get his articles published?!? Does he pay for them? I honestly don't get

it. It's not journalism, whatever it is.

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. Cough*Cough*Cough*Cough*Cough*

Now where have I heard that before?

Of course she can't (and won't) win the GE. The Majority of 83 MILLION Millennials will stay home, people who stand on principles, not party and refuse to vote for warmongers ever again, won't vote for her and Repubs will show up in droves to vote AGAINST her because they hate her with a passion. There's zero chance she will win the GE. The 1% will vote for her and that's 1% of the population. She can't win with 1% of the vote.

[MissDeeds]

210. Well said

I agree completely.

[sharp_stick]

150. What a load

Anybody that does that is more than complicit in electing a Republican. I think I might actually despise douchebags that play this card more than Republicans.

[bowens43]

156. No news here...she will never be president. It's not going to happen.

and that's a good thing, the bad thing is that she and her supporters will be handing the presidency to the republicans and ensuring they keep their majorities in the house and senate.

Hillary is going to bring about our worst nightmares. A country completely under the control of tea baggers.

[closeupready]

216. That's exactly what I see happening, sadly.

In my darker days, I tell myself, you know, I survived GWB and Reagan, so I can survive a Trump presidency, too.

[emsimon33]

157. This is what I have been saying all along

If Hillary is the nominee we lose and we lose big.

[oberliner]

159. H.A. Goodman just repackages the same material over and over

I feel like he has written this exact article for Salon about a dozen times already.

[SidDithers]

162. Goodman. LOL...nt

Sid

[WillyT]

164. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Jack Rabbit]

165. Why am I not surprised?

If I'm having as much trouble as I am visualizing voting for Mrs. Clinton, even with my nose held as tight as tight as I can, then of course, this doesn't surprise me a bit.

The only way Al From, Jon Cowan and their merry band of "silent coup" operatives have managed to win elections has been presidential elections, usually when the Democratic candidate posed as a progressive and turned around and governed from the center or even right of center. Please don't try to tell me Hillary Clinton is a progressive. I'm a progressive; she isn't. Rewriting the dictionary is no fair.

From, Cowan et al. have insisted on Wall Street Democrats since the Reagan/Bush the Preppy era. We've done prestty good in presidential elections, winning every one, in fact, including two where the Republocans stole it and the Democrats rolled over and played dead before the likes of Bush the Frat Boy. This was followed by catastrophic losses in off year congressional races in every off year election except 2006.

Still, From, Cowan and the other Republican moles in the Democratic Party insist their white bread Democrats are the way to victory. This is just a lot of horsepucky. Just look at carnage from the 2014 elections.

Jon Cowan and his "think tank" now lay out a 70-point plan to obliterate the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. It sounds like they'd really like us to leave, but we'll put up a fight first. Cowan says that there is "no evidence" that populist ideas have any traction in the Democratic Party. Maybe he should talk to rank-and-file Democrats and not Wall Street banksters. All the evidence suggests that Cowan is either badly mistaken or lying, and I don't think he's badly mistaken.

I haven't made up my mind whether I'll vote for Hillary November '16. There's no pressure, since I am confident that she'll carry California with or without my vote. I can assure you that my vote for Mrs. Clinton will be the most unenthusiastic vote I've ever cast. at least for president. Hillary against The Donald, Dr. Carson or Rubio? This country is fucked no matter which of them wins (though I will agree slightly less fucked under Hillary).

[Doctor_J]

175. one negative for Clinton due to Sanders campaign is that a lot of people

realize what the democratic party could and should represent. Then they look at Mrs Clinton's center right policies and history of flip flopping, and think that voting for her is useless or worse.

[RandySF]

176. Are we still fixed on the idea that Trump will be the Republican nominee?

[greenman3610]

178. "Because there's not a dime's worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush"

same thinking process, will produce the same result.
astounding we have learned nothing.

[onehandle]

179. Hillary will be our next President no matter what you do or say.

That must be very frustrating for you.

[font size="5"]#45[/font]

[img][/img]

[berni_mccoy]

181. Lol

[Hepburn]

190. wow...

...how's that Medium work going for ya?

[DanTex]

184. Letting H.A. Goodman blog at Salon lowers my opinion of Salon considerably.

[Babel_17]

185. Well, electability is an important issue

All candidates are fair game for that.

[JTFrog]

187. Ok. n/t

[lame54]

193. the one on one debates will change that...

I'm for Bernie
But if Hillary wins she will out debate any fool they pick

[randome]

208. A cinderblock could out-debate any Republican.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[George II]

197. And if neither Trump nor Sanders get the nomination?

These theoretical "if he runs against him, who wins?" polls are useless.

[Thinkingabout]

202. Yea yea yea Sanders will not be the DNC nominee and the best candidate is Hillary Clinton over any

Of the candidates running.

[BklnDem75]

206. The replies on that website...

PUMA infestation so far from the first primary.

[Utopian Leftist]

211. Hillary did not lose in 2008 by being any worse than Obama . . .

their platforms were virtually identical.

Hillary lost in 2008 because she scares the crap out of a lot of people, including Democrats.

She represents naked ambition, opportunism and a stunning lack of passion or compassion, both of which qualities are vital to a leader.

She will lose to Bernie Sanders for the same reason. She scares too many, while offering no original solutions to our dire economic and environmental problems. Her only selling point is that she is a woman, and that is simply not a wise basis for a rational vote.

Vote on character. Vote on issue positions. Don't vote on a superficial, shallow construct such as gender.

[skepticscott]

218. Sheesh, is everyone in this thread so hung up on bashing

the "other" candidate (whichever that is for them), that they can't even see the blindingly obvious idiocy here?

"Hillary Not Electable in General Campaign" says the title of the article. And then later in the same article we get (in bold, yet): Sanders defeats Trump by a wider margin than Clinton in a general election. In other words, Clinton also wins in a general campaign against Donald Trump!

The author is a lying sack of shit, who can't even get his stories straight in the same fucking article. And everyone here can do nothing but feed trolls like that...

[pnwmom]

220. This is the worthless opinion of H.A. Goodman, a Rand Paul 2016 supporter who likes to pose

as a liberal Democrat.

And people here are just lapping it up . . .

[Plucketeer]

223. Wonder if

there's a restocking charge on that crown?

[Fast Walker 52]

225. I think the Hillary people are counting on the GOP candidate being horrible, and he will be

and so we will have two GE candidates who the electorate will not be too excited about, and another typical medium turnout close-election in which anything can happen.

[ibegurpard]

228. Which is a fucking stupid strategy

Low turnout we lose. Every time. She's going to drag us all down with her.

[Fast Walker 52]

231. that is indeed a serious worry

even though no GOPer candidate is fit to be president.

Oy...

[Proud Liberal Dem]

229. I think that it's a bit early yet for predictions like this

Many people are not paying much attention yet. Primaries haven't even started, either. If Hillary wins the nomination, let's see what happens when people are actually forced to consider whoever the Republicans put up as their nominee. My guess is that most people will be a LOT more enthusiastic (or scared s***less of the Republican candidate) about voting for Hillary.

[AgingAmerican]

230. The longer this goes on, the more I'm convinced of this

She will get no crossover votes. She is rudderless.

[sabrina 1]

234. That's why they are trying to stop him he is the obvious winner

[madokie]

237. Hillary will never be our President

that can be taken to the bank. Its not my fault either. I talk to a lot of people and I've yet to talk to anyone in person who is going to vote for Hillary. Every one says the same thing, I don't trust her. Bernie on the other hand gets accolades for his honesty and forthright calling of a pig a pig, if you get my drift.
I'm in a bastion of red but I hear folks say that they're voting for Bernie and most are republiCONs who are saying that. That he's the same person as he was when he entered politics and the fact he isn't rich being made that way due to his government contacts etc is why they say what they're saying


Bernie Sanders will be our next President!

[Romulox]

238. The Third Wayers would rather lose with Hillary than win with Bernie.

That's because the monied interests who support Hillary will ultimately win with either a Republican or a "New" Democrat, and they don't care which it is.