"War should be the last resort ..."

[slipslidingaway]

I'm with Sanders and this is something he has been saying for decades.

War wreaks havoc, not only on an individual, but also on their family, our nation and economy.

Millions of people thought invading Iraq was the wrong course, at the very least they had some reservations and voted no.

The consequences of destabilizing a country and ultimately a region gave them doubt. And what are we left with? A region that is in chaos.

Dictators, as harsh and brutal as they are, keep some semblance of rule in certain countries. You know what you get.

I read today that there are 700,000 youths in Syria who are not attending school, they are just trying to survive. Did we not read about the million plus Iraqi children who were left orphaned and without a positive direction for a future? Where did they go, were they swayed by a radical element?

Is this the new world that we should welcome? Sorry I am beyond disgusted on how we treat other people in different countries and the cavalier attitude that we bomb, and allow bombs on other people in foreign lands.

Democracy is born, it cannot be forced on another nation when that nation is not ready. We can try, but we should not be surprised when it results in chaos and a severe backlash.

[Autumn]

1. "I will not hesitate to use military force." Fuck that. I want a

president who will hesitate to use military force.

[marym625]

3. there is no doubt in my mind

That the majority of those that voted for the war in Iraq knew that it was based on lies. We knew. They knew.

[slipslidingaway]

5. Yes, either they knew or were swayed by some stupid belief that Bush had a clue. n/t

[marym625]

11. or promises of future help and support.

I suspect there were promises and threats. Don't know if we'll ever know the full truth. Though we're getting more information now.

Bush, Cheney, Powell, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and Rice should all be behind bars for life.

[slipslidingaway]

15. We'll never know the truth and even if something is revelaed it will be an old story ...

but we knew when Obama said his justice department would not seek out the truth, if something happened to land in their lap then maybe they would investigate??? Somewhere in my journal there is probably the exact quote.

Many are tired of two parties blaming the other party, where their votes ultimately land is a guess. But the millennials and independents are a wild card ... we'll see.

[marym625]

16. the fact that the US media is ignoring the proof of lies

That planned for war, while Blair is raked over the coals in the UK, says it all for me.

The complaints about Fox news should not be so focused. They may be more blatant in their lies but they are not the only ones culpable in our downfall in so many things. The U.S. mainstream media is bought and paid for by the oligarchs

[slipslidingaway]

19. Totally agree the US media is bought and paid for, but the younger generation ...

is not paying attention, for better or for worse the get their news from social media

And I cannot fault one side without casting a questionable look at the other.

[marym625]

20. Nor should we. This new oligarchy is not one party or the other.

Hence the lack of differences in so much of the third-way/republican policies.

[slipslidingaway]

26. Agree, some have been saying that for years, this is not new....

being in the 6th decade of my life many people are tired of playing the same game and are fed up with the two party system that has not advanced the issues of the majority of people.

The difference this time is that the large millennial generation sees the flaws and is actively taking a role and many are not inclined to support the establishment candidates.

[marym625]

37. "the large millennial generation sees the flaws and is actively taking a role"

Which is why Bernie Sanders will win the primary and then the general.

They do not own landlines. I'll bet some don't even know what they look like other than from movies

[Aerows]

39. Which is why Bernie Sanders will win the primary and then the general.

Yep.

This attempt at discouraging Bernie supporters is a failure.

Get ready, you are going to be voting for Bernie in the GE!!!

[marym625]

40. They sure will

And I bet deep down, many are hoping that is the case. Sometimes it's difficult for people to admit that they backed the wrong person.

[Autumn]

8. Yes, they knew but they voted for their own political futures, damn the cost in human life.

They who voted yes knew it was all lies.

[marym625]

12. absolutely.

[slipslidingaway]

4. Those who say they will not hesitate to use force ...

most likely are those who have not gone to war or have not been affected by war.

[thesquanderer]

42. Hillary echoed the OP in the MSNBC forum

She said that use of force over diplomacy "should always be the last resort."

Even your earlier quote, "I will not hesitate to use military force" has at least an implied "if diplomacy fails" after it.

While it may sound like she flipped from an old position to (again!) echo Bernie's, really, the statements are not fundamentally at odds.

I think sometimes in discussions here, people get too hung up on parsing words, looking for the most flattering or unflattering interpretation, sometimes trying to find a gotcha where none really exists.

I am quite sure that BS and HRC would both say they agree that war should be a last resort after attempts at peaceful solutions fail. That's not controversial.

The core of this really has very little to do with what either of them has said about conflict in general, whether in context or out, artfully put or not. It has to do with how they have reacted (whether in words or deeds) to specific situations that have arisen over the past decades. And what that tells us, I think, is that while they would both tell you that war should only be a last resort when other approaches fail, in fact, they will likely draw different lines as to deteremining just when all else has failed. While either of them could ultimately decide to use force, I think it is a near certainty that HRC would be quicker to use force than BS, that that there is a line to cross where "diplomacy and other means have failed" and that HRC will see that line as crossed sooner than BS would.

They have both supported military action in the past. But AFAIK, BS has never supported a military action that HRC opposed, but HRC has supported military actions that BS opposed.

[Autumn]

43. "if diplomacy fails" Those three words are easy to say she didn't say them and iI am not one

to put word in another person mouth that they didn't say. An implication gives a person an out.

[thesquanderer]

44. She did say the exact words you want

in the MSNBC forum, that's where she used the "last resort" phrase. I don't see that as an inherent coflict with the earlier quote you gave... it is so easy to get them to be coherent.

And does anyone really think HRC ever meant to imply that she wouldn't try all diplomatic means first? I mean, whether you'd believe her or not, do you really think she would ever intentionally want people to think that she wouldn't try all diplomatic means first? Heck, even GWB insisted tht he would only go into Iraq as a last resort. It can be a lie, sure. But no politician is ever going to say otherwise.

So I don't consider HRC more hawkish because of saying things like "I will not hesitate." I consider her more hawkish because of what she's actually said and done when these situations have come up.

[Autumn]

45. I missed that. Of course she would try diplomatic means

but I think that Hillary very much has a hawkish nature and is not above using it if she needs the benefit. Her IWR vote bears that out. We knew what was going on and if we knew, she knew. Many of us called and wrote detailing information and it was ignored.

[marym625]

2. K&R!

War should never be the go to "solution."

[Art_from_Ark]

9. Absolutely

[RobertEarl]

6. All we are saying...

...is give peace a chance.

Bernie is the best chance for real peace.

[slipslidingaway]

7. You are so old :) Some of us old follks have been hoping for a change for decades ...

so happy Bernie is appealing to the old and also to the young.

Not inclined to vote for status quo.

[RobertEarl]

14. That I yam

I am so old I sung that back during the Vietnam debacle. On the street. With many others.

I was so mad that my country invaded Iraq and repeated the mistake

My hope for the young people of today is that they know real peace all their lives. The way to do that is make sure our leaders do a really good job of giving peace a chance.

[slipslidingaway]

17. I was joking, when I read the line I could hear the voices ...

I am really encouraged by the enthusiasm of my millennial kids and friends for their support of the 'old guy.'

I hope we can move towards peace as well, you have to give it a chance.

[Hydra]

10. War is not the answer

It's an excuse to do what you want outside the laws. Is that what we REALLY want to be as a nation? The biggest monster on the block?

[marym625]

13. Evidently, for some people, that's the way to go.

Bullies that never grew up and the bullied who have no way of feeling powerful. And Fuck anyone that is harmed in the process

[slipslidingaway]

22. Wonder what would have happened if we left the secular leader Mossadegh in power decades ago ...

and not put the Shah back in power? War and or overthrowing democratically leaders in any nation might not be the best idea, the monster or bully does not always bring the best results.

[Ken Burch]

30. or if we had left the pre-Taliban government in power in Afghanistan? n/t.

[Art_from_Ark]

41. Edwin Starr had it pegged

The only thing he was a little off on was that only undertakers profit from it

[liberal_at_heart]

18. Do you ever notice how most the politicians and the media almost always start by

assuming we have no other choice but to go to war right now or we will all die tomorrow? I'm tired of the rhetoric.

[slipslidingaway]

23. War and aggression towards other nations begets more war, we need an adult in the room ...

who thinks outside of the box.

This does not mean we should cower in the corner and remain placid when confronted with evil, but we need a cool head before we go to war.

[akbacchus_BC]

21. Thing is, no one is in a war with the US! The US choose to war with other countries, that is the

problem. Who crowned the US the police of the world? I would really like to know if the UN crowned the US to police the world! Which G8 voted for the US to invade Iraq?

[slipslidingaway]

24. Good question and I agree with Sanders that the Muslim nations need to play a large role in fighting

the extremists.

Given some of the Repub candidates this could just devolve into a religious war, someone needs to grow up quickly.

[akbacchus_BC]

32. I agree. A lot of the rich Arab states need to take responsibility of this

growing Middle East Conflict. But you know, like the 1%ers in the US, those rich Arabs do not give a shit about the plight of poor people. Same shit all over again, the rich against the poor. We all know that the richest Arab countries are building their nations on slave labour, who cares? You and I perhaps but we have no voice in the equation.

Imagine this shit, Israelis were given a place to live in Palestine. Palestine is not a state, but Israel is, you want to go to Palestine, you have to get an Israeli visa. And the world sits by and allow the atrocities that Israel does to the Palestinians.

Let's go to Rwanda, who gave a shit about them? The world stood by and let the slaughter happen, reason being, Rwanda was not important.

I sometimes wonder where we are heading as a human species. We have already taken over the sanctuary where animals live, animals are becoming extinct and the human populace with all their greed are still surviving and damaging everything we know sacred!

[JDPriestly]

25. If, instead of going into Iraq and fighting for oil, we had used the money that war cost us to put

solar panels on every house and building in the Southwest and build solar farms in the Southwest, we could have produced enough energy so that we would not need all that oil. We would need oil for cars and phase out gasoline engines and replace them with electric cars.

It's a matter of the choices we make and the priorities we set.

We chose to further destroy our environment and kill, kill, kill rather than invest in solar panels/ How stupid could we be.

[slipslidingaway]

27. Always said this was a war for resources, I remember reading that other countries were signing deals

for resources while we sending people to die and kill others.

All that money after Katrina, every new roof should have solar panels. We are stupid and cannot look forward even as Carter put solar panels on the WH. I remember being fortunate to go on a cruise in 2006 that traveled from Turkey, my sis lives in the UK, and looking at the vast amount of windmills and just remember thinking 'what are we doing.'

We are pretty stupid in our choices and too often petty in our views.

Then you have to wonder who do our policies benefit

[JDPriestly]

28. Agreed. Thanks.

[MisterP]

29. "I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too

closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am."

[Ken Burch]

31. Ironically, no use of force prior to 9/11 could have prevented it. n/t.

[slipslidingaway]

34. Nope and sorry, you need to look at the info before invading a nation regardless of the state ...

in which you live.

And what might be the consequences of destabilizing a country in the ME? These are questions that need to be asked before giving Bush the authority to invade.

[MisterP]

36. BUT 9-11!!!!111111

how utterly venal--and not only did she slaughter a million to advance her career, she did something more subtle: without Democratic support Iraq would've just been the project of the big hats from Houston and the ones who thought Jesus was telling them who to invade next through their milk boxes

with the Democrats, the IWR not only passed but it became a "serious" political topic, something "both sides of the aisle" agreed on instead of a way to affect the oil markets with bunker busters: it was a legitimate political topic now

[SoapBox]

33. No War Hawks for me.

Thanks but no thanks, Hill.

[akbacchus_BC]

35. Here we are again, between two evils and which one will you pick?

I really wish Mr. Sanders can get out young voters to vote and revive the Democratic Party. We all know that the political machinery that President Obama won on, is not operative. A lot of people distrust Mrs. Clinton and if she does not gain the Presidency, it may likely be a trump!

I always want a democrat in office but it seems these democratic candidates feel they are inevitable. If Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Sanders want to win, they have to get the voters out. They have to engage the young people to go out and vote. Somehow I feel, people will lose interest in such a long election process, but that is only my opinion.

[BeanMusical]

38. Kick and R