The thing I can't figure the fuck out

[hootinholler]

The universal complaint about politicians is that you can't trust them and they don't tell the truth. This is a fundamental construct underlying the spin that camp weathervane employs.

So why the hell wouldn't you support someone who actually is honest and trustworthy? A once in a lifetime candidate.

It puzzles the fuck out of me.

[LiberalArkie]

1. Well I guess the person kind of knows what they are getting thus won't be let down.

[bvf]

2. Looking forward to some reasoned, intelligent

responses, in 1000..., 999..., 998...

Seriously, it is puzzling beyond reason.

[PatrickforO]

3. Sanders is a once-in-a-lifetime candidate

There hasn't been anyone like him coming down the pike since FDR.

[Ed Suspicious]

24. And they fight sooo hard against him. Who was the last Democrat in a primary that people actively

fought against? I guess Obama, but before that?

[BlueCheese]

26. Anyone who's ever been a frontrunner.

[Ed Suspicious]

27. But according to all polls Bernie is not the frontrunner. How do you explain the howling opposition?

[BlueCheese]

30. Or close to being a frontrunner.

Sanders is hardly the only primary candidate to come under attack. And honestly, this primary campaign has been very polite so far.

[PatrickforO]

51. I don't know, Ed. Maybe, just maybe

these pollsters know something they're not telling us. Maybe Bernie IS the front runner but the oligarchs are fighting tooth and nail to discourage those of us who would vote for him so that we will not.

[Still In Wisconsin]

38. Howard Dean, twelve years ago.

That whole fight had a similar vibe. We were all still smarting from Dubya's first "win" then and a lot of anti-Dean people tried to paint him as the "new Nader."

Same shit, different decade.

[treestar]

104. Why didn't he run sooner then?

He could have run in 2008 when he was 8 years younger.

[Utopian Leftist]

143. The country was not prepared to vote for a true progressive in 2008.

Certain things had to happen to bring enough of the American people around, to make that opportunity realistic. Internet, social media and Occupy were among them. Occupy changed the public discourse and gave us a new focus on income inequality, which sort of thrusts Bernie into the spotlight, itself, since he is an expert in that area.

[treestar]

145. But the country is prepared now

Perfect username !

[humbled_opinion]

154. and I agree

This is perfect opportunity for Bernie's equality message, other candidates for the Democratic nomination have had to evolve to this position.. This is the time, we will not get another shot.

[99th_Monkey]

4. Yep. That's been baffling me lately as well.

Yet again, US voters appear to be ready to vote against their own best interests, and love
doing it.

[RKP5637]

10. Americans are experts at voting in people and then whining about what happens. Look at

congress, for example, very low approval rating, Americans vote them in, and then they sit around and whine. It's a nation of whiners and mourners.

[BKH70041]

5. The Answer

Depends on what the individual voter considers to be honest and trustworthy. In this case, some consider one to be and not the other. Some consider both to be. For me, I don't view any of them to be honest and/or trustworthy, so I have other criteria I personally use to decide for whom to vote.

[NurseJackie]

6. He's too old. I don't think he'd survive the stress of the job. Seriously.

[RKP5637]

9. I like him, but I did wonder about that especially into a 2nd term. n/t

[RobertEarl]

14. He'll be fine

He will get the best medical care as president. He could live to be 100, easily.

When he gets in office he will be so happy that so many ordinary people got off their butts and worked for him and got him elected. That means a lot or a person's health right there.

Besides, his VP will be quite capable and his staff the youngest, brightest, most capable we've ever seen. It will be fine. You can vote for Bernie with no worries.

[RKP5637]

16. Yep!!! n/t

[treestar]

103. Yeah he'd get to 82

My parents are that age. Not at one's full capacity at that age.

[winter is coming]

13. He seems to be doing just fine with a grueling campaign schedule.

Hillary's no spring chicken, either.

[NurseJackie]

18. Women live longer than men. Bernie's old and out of shape. He looks stooped and frail.

And although he's no scale-tipping Chris Christie, his apple-shaped belly concerns me. I doubt he'd last two years. (Who's his VP pick going to be?)

[Art_from_Ark]

22. And Hillary has had health problems

http://www.3news.co.nz/world/hillary-clinton-collapses-suffers-concussion-2012121608#axzz3r3YquhjP

[winter is coming]

29. Women _on average_ live longer than men. It's not an absolute.

I'd be a lot more worried about Hillary's blood clot than Bernie's belly.

[840high]

68. She has/had health problems and is not young.

[Fairgo]

112. Ageist much?

I smell the faint odor of ableism with your nurse's nose for stooped shoulders and apple-shaped bellies and scale tippers. Any other non-sequitor, ad hominem projections you'd like to share? You are teaching us a great deal about the ethos behind your words.

[stillwaiting]

114. Hillary's health problems have been worse than Sanders. I'm more concerned about Hill's health tbh.

And, his VP pick will be someone that will fight for average Americans (even if it conflicts with corporate bottom lines) much harder than whoever Hillary picks.

[Bubzer]

132. Old and out of shape? Stooped and frail? Are we really going down this road?

I could give you a litany about Hillary's problems to match and exceed anything you can find on Bernie.
I have an idea... how about sticking to the issues?

[treestar]

105. 6 years younger

makes a large difference at that age.

[slipslidingaway]

25. Many of my relatives are doing fine in their 80's, then you could look at Carter ...

and what he has achieved in later years.

And Clinton is not that far behind Sanders, so do not fret too much about age.

[NurseJackie]

42. Carter isn't under the pressures of being president.

Bernie is too old now before even starting. Republicans in Congress would just wait him out until the Vice President took over.

[slipslidingaway]

67. Vote on age, gender or race if that is your criteria, it is not mine. n/t

[artislife]

39. Six years difference 1941 v 1947

If you are so worried, you should switch to O'Malley.

[NurseJackie]

43. He's too young.

[passiveporcupine]

71. O'Malley is only two years youjger than Obama

[floriduck]

116. Just be honest.

The only reason you support your candidate is because she is a woman. We'd respect a serious answer more than the ones you've made up.

[fasttense]

48. The stress of the job didn't bother President Raygun

He was practically 78 when he finished out his last term. The stress didn't seem to bother him any, though he was senile during the last 2 years. But he was an idiot to begin with so no one noticed.

[jmowreader]

57. Probably because Poppy Bush was the de facto president most of Reagan's term

[Art_from_Ark]

99. Reagan was also exhibiting signs of senility for much of that time

He often thought he was on a movie set.

[fasttense]

73. He looks fine to me

In fact I think he looks even better than when he started the race. He looks more put togeather and determined than when he first started. He has good color and he looks intelligent.

Raygun always looked pale and jaudice to me. That fake hair color didn't do his pallid skin any favors. And that constant look of confusion on Raygun's face. He even had it when he 1st took office and he supposedly didn't have any mental disfunctions. He always looked lost and confused and pale yellow with weirdly dark hair.

[treestar]

106. worst argument ever

it didn't bother Raygun because he wasn't really trying to run the Executive branch. Other people did it for him and he spouted platitudes. He was a figurehead only (which has been true of all R Presidents since).

[onecaliberal]

75. Too old? That's a bullshit excuse. Especially since one like him will NOT come along again.

It might be too late for the planet anyway. Don't you people give two shits about the world we're leaving? I guess you all are lucky our elders didn't think like you because we damn sure wouldn't be living in free America now.

[Art_from_Ark]

113. Right on

[onecaliberal]

160. Thanks. That pisses me off.

[LiberalArkie]

152. He knows it, if he gets the nomination he will have a great VP with him.

Watching a lot of the videos, he has kids drop out of the marches and he keeps going.

[humbled_opinion]

155. How does that nonsense endorse

frail old grandma Hillary? You should be supporting Martin O'malley

[Renew Deal]

7. Some things are too good to be true

Or there could be many promises, but few accomplishments.

[BootinUp]

8. Maybe you are trying to over simplify

the thing.

[shenmue]

118. Exactly

[SunSeeker]

11. Most people know all politicians "spin," including Bernie.

I, and I think most people, vote according who they think will get them what they want. Hillary is obviously that person to most people.

[Hydra]

12. Cognitive dissonance

Team Hillary works for the ultimate actress. Each of them believe that what they believe of her and her platform will be real when she comes.

I believe each person holds their own individual things dear. I can appreciate that Hillary's hold dear list involves her family and not the rest of us, but I don't think that's a good basis to be the highest office of public servant.

[NorthCarolina]

15. Me too, but I think it has more to do with Bernie being a populist than

it has to do with "trust". Fiscal conservatives just don't like his take from the rich and help the poor and middle class approach. That includes fiscal conservatives of both GOP and Dem stripes.

Remember Claire McCaskill's grimaced face as she declared "why, he's a Socialist for god sake" in reference to Bernie Sanders. That in itself should tell you all you need to know about that group of 'democrats'. Bernies fiscal policy is, quite simply, abhorrent to them.

[notadmblnd]

17. Cause he's not a woman?

Or maybe he's not the next in line to inherit the Bush/Clinton throne? I don't know.

[840high]

69. I think you got it.

[delrem]

19. In trying to grasp this as a Canadian I'm always brought around to

I'm always brought around to an understanding that somehow the actual political process of presidential elections in the US is rigged. The process facilitates a rigged game designed beforehand by a single team who wanted a facsimile of democratic choice but not the real thing.
Another example of that, exactly the same in kind, is democracy in Columbia after the coup in the 1960's, except the US example is much better established and managed long term. It has to be - it's the mother plant for all the clones.

How? The primary process which pits individual personalities against each other, rather than movements representing broad ideas, leads immediately into a general election which again pits individual personalities against each other. After each switch of administration the US is told that they've got a new slate, the old one being wiped.

This intense individualization makes it all about scandal vs show biz hype.

So here we have this primary with the R's on one side, the D's on the other, and the structure is dealt out by the MSM, Fox News, NBC, CNN. The MSM is a corporate tool, owned by ... Do I have to explain?? No, I don't.

It's a crime, is what it is - that the USA, which has turned the Middle East into a hellscape beyond comprehension, beyond reasonable explanation or even description - is playing out this charade. But there's nothing anyone in the world can do.

I mean, a country that even with such a rigged system decides that it also needs to use black boxes run by closed source proprietary software to tabulate votes? That's pretty wacko.

[zeemike]

70. I think that is pretty accurate.

The game is rigged and us suckers have to pretend it is not for fear of social pressure and the charge of being a CTer.

We all know the chocolate rations went down, but we must insist it went up...or face the scorn of our fellow peps.

[ArcticFox]

110. We have a winner

Which of the framers said we need a revolution every once in a while? Those guys knew something about history, about political systems, about human nature.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Maybe that isn't universal? Sounds like an assumption.

[Aerows]

40. Maybe it seems like a dose of reality

We need a champion for the interests of the middle and low-middle class. It goes without saying that those in poverty can barely drag themselves out of it, because that is documented.

That includes you, school teacher. I remember seeing your Arne Pirate signature for several months after the Obama win. You want change in public school funding? You are going to end up with charter schools being the only option to teach in with Hillary, because she is full steam ahead on charter schools.

I get that it chapped a lot of ass when Hillary was defeated the first time, but doing the same old, same old that lost last time isn't going to achieve the goal of more Democratic candidates at *all* levels of government.

The Eye on the Prize is more Democratic candidates in all levels of government. It starts at home at the local level. I can't help it if people at my local level like Bernie better than Clinton. I can't help it if when I say "Hillary", the assorted comments that I get are rancid.

Bernie, even Republicans seem to like because they are just as damn fed up as everyone else is. I live in a red state, so I interface with said people every day, though I've never in my life voted for a Republican candidate.

[Starry Messenger]

50. Please don't address me like that. We aren't friends.

"That includes you, school teacher. I remember seeing your Arne Pirate signature for several months after the Obama win. You want change in public school funding? You are going to end up with charter schools being the only option to teach in with Hillary, because she is full steam ahead on charter schools."

It's hyperbolic flights of fancy like that which is going to tank your candidate, so there isn't any reason for me to counter that kind of ridiculousness. People don't trust people who make sweeping statements. Like that.

[Aerows]

52. I am not sorry

that I attempted to have civil discourse with you.

I'm just sorry that you chose insulting me, instead.

Have a great night!

[Starry Messenger]

53. Projection noted.

Wavey-bye-bye.

[Aerows]

55. Peace.

[Phlem]

65. The Hillary in you speaks volumes.

Wavey-bye-bye.
Did you just say that to the logic in you as well? Projection!??



ahhh. ready for a beer.

[Starry Messenger]

78. It will be fun to watch Bernie lose. You guys make it easy.

[xmas74]

86. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Tue Nov 10, 2015, 12:35 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

It will be fun to watch Bernie lose. You guys make it easy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=788361

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is an OTT response to a mild and innocuous post made in good faith. This kind of divisive nastiness needs to stop.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Nov 10, 2015, 12:38 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: In poor taste, but not abusive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There's a lot of back and forth in that thread.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: One said it about Hillary directly above but the same cannot be said about Bernie? Come on, act like freakin' adults around here. I'd prefer to see none of it but if you're gonna dish it better be able to handle it when it's flung back at you.
And you wonder why DU is becoming the punch line of a damn joke.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No excuse for posting venomous comments about a great Democrat. Wrong message board.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Both people in this exchange behlong in diapers
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Starry Messenger]

89. LOL.

I've seen Bernie supporters describe Hillary supporters as brain damaged, etc. Not one has called it out.

[xmas74]

161. I thought you would enjoy it.

One of the jurors went off just a bit, lol.

[BeanMusical]

88. ...

[Starry Messenger]

90. Sorry your alert failed.

[BeanMusical]

91. Lol! Sorry but it wasn't me.

If I had alerted on something it would have been on the other one where you were very rude to Aerows who was being polite and civil.

[Starry Messenger]

92. *snort*

If that's polite, I would hate to see rude. Arrogant assumptions based on mistruths are not civil in my book.

Have a nice primary, it's going to be harsh.

[BeanMusical]

94. Good luck, you're going to need it.

[Starry Messenger]

95. That's right. It might be a strain when Clinton gets 50 pts ahead of Sanders.

I think we will soldier on under the pressure though.

[BeanMusical]

97. Sure, whatever. Now look at that cool animated gif:

[Romulox]

136. Supporting the wealthy and powerful over even common decency. At long last...

Naw, it's obvious you don't.

[CreekDog]

163. what about when you went after the undocumented immigrants?

I think that lacked any common decency, it certainly does not fit into the purpose of DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3665759&mesg_id=3667118

you used the term "illegal aliens" too. so how do you really feel? oh and you don't think we should apologize for slavery? really? you're above all that?

and you're lecturing someone else here? look in the mirror.

[CreekDog]

164. She is to the left of you

If you spent any time in the labor, education or socialist groups, you'd know that.

Which makes me wonder how much cred you have as someone here claiming to be further left than her when you don't even seem to know how solidly left she is.

[Romulox]

135. Shameful series of posts. You will never live this crap down. nt

[Starry Messenger]

137. Nope, feeling great!

[Romulox]

138. You may feel good, but your reputation (and credibility) has been sullied. nt

[Starry Messenger]

139. For whom? You? LoL

I'll live.

[Romulox]

141. That you are shameless is abundantly evident. nt

[CreekDog]

162. Calling someone "shameless" is a huge accusation

but since you have, let's ask if your posts can stand the same scrutiny.

was this post, for example, "shameless"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4989539

[BeanMusical]

76. "I am not sorry that I attempted to have civil discourse with you."

The reaction of that poster was very startling and weird. I guess that civil discourse is not part of the agenda at that sewer site.

[Romulox]

128. That poster has been unmasked. She's a ersatz-socialist who fights for the Status Quo. nt

[Phlem]

62. Amen!

[BlueCheese]

21. It's possible that not everybody agrees with your assessment of the candidates.

Or maybe they think another candidate is more prepared to be president.
Or would be better for the Democratic Party.
Or agrees with them more on a key issue.
Or any of a dozen other valid reasons.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

54. I distrust candidates who inspire cults

And think they have a monopoly on truth. Hell, Ted Cruz is mounting the same kind of purist crusade against the Republicans from the other side, and I have absolutely no doubt that he's "telling the truth" as he sees it. Would I want him to be President? No way in hell.

Of course, I don't accuse Senator Sanders of that kind of insane honesty. He's just a regular politician, mostly.

Senator Sanders is good at gesture politics, but as soon as anyone asks him how he'd get any of his pie-in-the-sky promises to the hard left base past the GOP congress, he just starts to mumble. Introducing legislation is not the same thing as passing it, Senator. And frankly it is disingenuous to pretend that it is. In other words, typical politics.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Art_from_Ark]

111. Speaking of people who think they have a monopoly on truth

I would say that someone who bills himself as a "Proud Member of the Reality Based Community" clearly fits that description.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

119. You would be wrong

I did not coin "Reality Based Community". The phrase has an actual history to it. Look it up some time. You might be surprised.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[pnwmom]

23. Because he doesn't have much of a campaign organization

and he has burdened himself with the label, "Democratic socialist."

And he hasn't demonstrated much ability to work with people, other than to tell them how wrong they are.

[Dem2]

28. What's all this talk about

camp weathervane anyway?

[zentrum]

31. Me 2 hoot. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. It is?

I guess you must be talking about "that other Camp Weathervane"

[Live and Learn]

33. Count me in there as well. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. Want to hear one even weirder?

A well scrubbed middle aged white male poses with his family and claiming they are super-Christy and when they get to DC and get caught in a motel room getting a suitcase full of cash and cocaine while having paid sex with a guy dressed as a squirrel (bushy tail and all) the voter's first reaction is to think DC is so EVIL that it corrupted a good, super-Christy family man and their solution is to send yet another well scrubbed middle aged white male who poses with his family and claims to be super-Christy.

[Aerows]

37. Now you, Spitfire of ATJ

expressed what many of us wonder.

They didn't get corrupted on their way there, they got there because they were corrupted.

As an electoral body, we aren't asking the right questions.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

77. What I find disturbing is it still works.

[Aerows]

93. Precisely.

How it continues to work stuns me. P. T. Barnum wasn't wrong.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. So THAT'S why everyone says Red States suck....

They're full of suckers.

[Aerows]

98. I live in a red state

and I fight tooth and nail to get us toward more liberal policies that benefit the people.

I'm in MS.

I do as much as I can in my state to flip people to more liberal principles, because I am a whole-hearted advocate of liberal policy and the Democratic Party.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

100. The only way I can picture MS to flip is through rebelious millennials.

[Aerows]

102. I know

I fight the good fight anyway.

You will dampen my enthusiasm for electing great Democratic candidates the day dirt is shoveled over my grave.

And even then, I might come back to haunt those that dare pull an (R) lever .

[ieoeja]

117. Actual exchange of posts I had with a DUer once.

Me: Rural corruption works because people just "know our politicians aren't corrupt because I've known them since kindergarten".

Him: I know for a fact that our local pols aren't corrupt.

Me: How do you know that?

Him: Because I've know all of them since kindergarten.


Sadly, he was not being sarcastic.

[MohRokTah]

35. There is absolutely no way I believe Sanders is honest and trustworthy.

No way in hell do I believe that.

[quakerboy]

60. That would lead one to ask about your sigline

You believe Sanders is dishonest and untrustworthy(curious what that would be based on, but thats a separate discussion), but you are willing to vote for him?.

[MohRokTah]

82. Nobody who seeks public office is honest and trustworthy

Because that is my sincere belief, no politician has ever disappointed me.

[mac56]

120. I feel sad for you.

And that is my sincere belief.

[MohRokTah]

122. My experience has been that politicians who push populism are the most...

dishonest and untrustworthy of the lot.

[druidity33]

153. So you think Clinton is dishonest and untrustworthy? nt.

[quakerboy]

166. So why would you even bother voting for a presidential candidate?

Much less taking on the logo of one?

If they are all dishonest and untrustworthy, then there is literally no way to even guess what you will get when they reach the highest office, because everything to that point is just trying to get elected. So why give your vote or support to any of them?



I guess for myself, I would always rather try to puzzle things out based on the best available information, and then hope. I get dissapointed in politicians. And thats OK by me. I'd rather keep trying for better than to have given up.

BTW.. Ive known one politician who I guarantee was honest and trustworthy, at least in his roll as a politician. He ran locally. He ran because no one filed for the city council seat, and he felt it was his responsibility as a citizen since no one else was willing to do it. And as soon as someone filed the next election, he happily vacated.

[MohRokTah]

167. Dishonest and trustworthy as they are, they affect my life and the lives of everybody. eom

[quakerboy]

168. So do many things

Banks also effect everybody's life, but its quite rare that any of us would put their bumper sticker on our car.

Same for telecom companys. But Its pretty rare to see anyone using one of their logos as an avatar online.

[Fawke Em]

74. And Hillary is?

I can't WAIT for the FBI's report.

[MohRokTah]

84. See post #82 eom

[Aerows]

36. I'm puzzled, too.

I don't understand the hatred for Bernie when he is a truth-teller.

[Fumesucker]

44. It's easier to forgive someone for being wrong than for being right

People who are right are so smug and superior, no one likes a know it all.

[snagglepuss]

144. That is one bloody amazing observation.

How true it is that it is easier to forgive someone for being wrong than for being right.

[Fumesucker]

149. I read it somewhere a number of years ago and it definitely resonated with me

[Warren Stupidity]

158. It's not puzzling to me.

Supporting Clinton for many means compartmentalizing all the crap of third way New Democrat capitulation compromise and corruption, assuming that that shit bothers you, and constructing a narrative where Clinton is not part of that.

Bernie destroys that narrative and the response is anger and retrenchment. New narratives are constructed to rationalize the anger. Bernie is a racist. Bernie is a sexist. Bernie is a commie. Bernie isn't a real democrat. Bernie supporters are evil people.

[Prism]

41. You thought people cared about policy?

That's cute.

No, not so much. This is all identity politics writ large.

My favorite bit is the African American community thinking the Clintons will do a damn thing for them. I mean, yeah, we have twenty years saying otherwise, but this time!

Ah.

Yeah.

[alc]

45. What if I think ted cruz is honest and trustworthy

Should I vote for him because he honestly believes what he says and I can trust him to do it?

I think I need to agree with the candidate on issues as well as trust them.

[Ed Suspicious]

121. No. But that's just a weird question. Is he honest and right?

Cruz fails both tests. Bernie paases with flying colors.

[Thespian2]

46. Some responses in this thread are ludirous...

You would not vote for the best candidate because he is old, but you would vote for the 1%er, even though you know her policies will destroy the middle class and the poor...and this is rational thinking?...

[Autumn]

47. I don't get it either. As a Latina Bernie speaks of things that matter to me.

He's the only candidate I find to be honest and trustworthy. He has a lifetime record of fighting on the right side of every issue and whenever it's brought up it's dismissed with hatred. It puzzles the fuck out of me too.

[Phlem]

49. Same here my friend.

The disconnect is so freaking wide I think people have forgone critical thinking all together.

[Aerows]

61. Look up thread with my discussion

of educational policy, just so *an* issue can be discussed with someone that is an educator.

My sister is an elementary education teacher with a Masters of Education.

I'm rightly proud of her, and I listen to her when she gets upset with legislators choking the education system into incompetence via denying funds and pushing charter schools.

Nope, didn't want to discuss our education system. But my tone and verbiage usage? Yeah, that was all the individual wanted to discuss.

[Lil Missy]

56. No explanation would satisfy you. Suffice it to say, a clear majority of Democrats favor HRC.

And incidentally, I know a lot of people who are honest and trustworthy, but I wouldn't want any one of them to hold the highest office in the free world.

[Phlem]

66. I know right!?

Just like in 2008!

[marym625]

58. you're not alone in this

I don't understand how anyone who calls themselves liberal, progressive or Democrat, can support someone that voted for No Child Left Behind, the Bankruptcy bill written by the banks, the Patriot Act and the illegal war in Iraq. Boggles the mind.

[BainsBane]

64. The fact is Sanders is no more honest than Clinton

according to fact checking sites.

Sanders's statements by ruling

Click on the ruling to see all of Sanders's statements for that ruling.

True6 (17%)(6)
Mostly True13 (37%)(13)
Half True6 (17%)(6)
Mostly False4 (11%)(4)
False6 (17%)(6)
Pants on Fire0
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/

Clinton's statements by ruling

Click on the ruling to see all of Clinton's statements for that ruling.

True39 (29%)(39)
Mostly True29 (22%)(29)
Half True26 (20%)(26)
Mostly False22 (17%)(22)
False15 (11%)(15)
Pants on Fire2 (2%)(2)

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

(I personally think Politifact is far too generous toward him on some questions, like his statements on Super pacs, where they ignore the fact that one of the Super Pacs listed is run by a former Sanders staffer).

That point about Sanders not being more truthful has been made many times, yet people ignore it. The sad thing is how few actually care whether a statement is truthful or accurate. Too many have decided he is truthful because they choose what to believe based on what he says. The entire premise of your post is false, and I would suggest the far more salient question is why are so many so unconcerned with the truth and why are they so willing to suspend evidence and facts for deference to one man?

Perhaps you can start by telling us why he claimed in the debate that he didn't vote to grant immunity for gun corporations when in fact he did? That's a false statement easily refuted by the congressional record. In fact, following the debate, CNN ranked responses and Sanders had more false statements than anyone else. http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/politics/democratic-debate-fact-check/

I can predict the responses. The media, just like science, is in part of a corporate conspiracy all designed to stop a single man from assuming his rightful place as President of the United States. Just like PPP, YouGov, and every other polling outfit lies and the only people who aren't shills are those who think exactly like the chosen few who support Sanders.

This election will be over, and there will be many more to follow. Politicians will rise and fall, and people will be left with who they are at the end of it. In my view, no politician is worth sacrificing one's intellectual integrity. It isn't necessary to abandon concern for evidence and truth to support a politician. We need only examine their record, qualifications, and views and decide accordingly. The problem comes in when people expect perfection, and then end up having to ignore all kinds of things in order to meet that exalted standard, just as presenting another politician as evil requires distortion. The Manichean approach to politics is itself inherently dishonest.

[olddots]

72. 997

996. 995

[BeanMusical]

79. Kick and R

[waldo.c]

80. 1) Because this is the country that elected G.W. Bush twice ...

...demonstrating the selfishness/stupidity/determinedly intransigent ignorance/vindictiveness of the conservative US voter.

2) because the US is so corrupt that it's hard for people to believe that there's an honest politician left in the country.

3) because people don't want to believe there's honest people striving for good in the face of that aforementioned corruption because that would require them to do something to help and the majority of the US electorate is scared out of it's wits and desperately trying to remain anonymous.

4) because a lot of American people don't trust anybody and are proud of it.

5) because America has been so corrupt for so long that most voters wouldn't know an honest man if they fell over him.

All that said, we've got to try. Work for Bernie, stump for Bernie, vote for Bernie.

[waldo.c]

81. see #80 : )

[lovemydog]

83. That and five bucks

gets you a beer. There are many other factors, including how well someone can effectively navigate progressive legislation through Congress.

[BlueStateLib]

85. Clinton never voted for the bankruptcy law and would have voted NO

Sen clinton supported passage S. 420 that included revised version of Senator Schumer’s
amendment to ensure that any debts resulting from any act of violence, intimidation, or
threat would be nondischargeable. Women can now be assured that they can continue to
collect child support payments after the child’s father has declared bankruptcy.

The legislation makes child support the first priority during bankruptcy proceedings. This
body agreed to include a cap on the homestead exemption to ensure that wealthy debtors
could not shield their wealth by purchasing a mansion in a state with no cap on homestead
exemption. In addition, I was concerned about competing nondischargeable debt so I worked
hard with Senator Boxer to ensure that more credit card debt can be erased so that women
who use their credit cards for food, clothing and medical expenses in the 90 days before
bankruptcy do not have to litigate each and every one of these expenses for the first $750.

Let me be very clear—I will not vote for final passage of this bill if it comes back from
conference if these kind of reforms are missing. I am voting for this legislation because
it is a work in progress, and it is making progress towards reform.

S. 420 failed in conference and never became law, and the next congress striped the amendments
and lost clintons support, in fact the Democrats tried to block the bill with a filibuster and
Clinton voted to maintain the filibuster.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/22/1423815/-Something-I-Heard-About-Hillary-Clinton-is-Untrue-The-Bankruptcy-Bill-Edition

You guys say hillary play's fast and loose with the truth, you guys are ten times worse

[Art_from_Ark]

101. You sure about that?

"Obama drew clear distinctions between himself and other Democratic candidates in the primaries, including Hillary Clinton and Biden, for their support for the bill. Obama has furthermore spoken critically of Senator McCain's support of the bill during general election campaigning, using it to push at a theme of McCain's alleged unconcern for the cares of working-class and middle-class families."

http://www.totalbankruptcy.com/news/articles/celebrity/obama-and-biden-bankruptcy-differences.aspx

[BlueStateLib]

108. Yes,

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044

[Art_from_Ark]

109. Clinton did not vote because she was visiting Bill in the hospital

But during the primary campaign, Obama criticized her for supporting the Bankruptcy Bill.

[2pooped2pop]

87. media

Today I heard that Hillary is trying to reclassify pot and Bernie is trying to appeal to younger voters. Nothing about what he is saying about pot or how Hillary is following his lead almost daily with a watered down new view of his lifelong stances. The statements were true but what they leave out shapes public opinion. Many still think the news has an obligation to be truthful. We will never have anything close to a democracy as long as a handful of rich republicans own all of our media.
Now why the people on a site such as this seems determined to continue our downfall and vote against all of our own nest interest, I am at a loss for understanding too.

[treestar]

107. huh? Those who say that are pretty much equivalent with the Bernie side

in fact, it's a bit delusional to think Bernie's not a politician too. The Senate is very elite - how did he get there? Some miracle? If they are all bought and paid for, how did VT get out of it?

[grasswire]

126. did you read the article today about how Bernie....

...is "leaving Silicone Valley money on the table"?

Wealthy California techies have offered him money, but he has turned it down.

[treestar]

146. Still doesn't address how

He got into the elite body, the Senate. How did the oligarchs allow this ?

[Nye Bevan]

147. Bernie has certainly figured out how to win votes in Vermont.

Anyone should give him credit for that.

His problem is that America is not Vermont times fifty.

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. Some people always vote against their best interests.

In this case, there are probably quite a few who are voting based just on gender. They want a female president ! Voting based on gender, race, ethnicity or religion is just pathetic.

Then we have the Hillary supporters who are part of the GREEDY 1%. They -

1. Are wealthy themselves and couldn't care less about the less fortunate or the country as a whole. They're just like the RWers who say "I earned it and I don't intend to share it." You know, the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps crowd. It's all about ME! ME! ME! We already have a self processed greedy 1% here - he always posts about how wealthy he is. So, there's that group that LOVES Hillary.

2. Own a Corporation and don't want to pay taxes.

3. Work in the Executive branch of a corporation and don't want to pay taxes.

4. work in the Fracking industry and don't want to lose their job - to hell with the health of our planet, water, air, soil and food.

5. work for big AG and don't want to lose their subsidy.

6. work for GREEDY WALL ST. And don't want to pay transaction fees.

7. Work for/own Big Oil and fear losing their subsidy or their job. Planet be damned.

8. Work for Big Pharma and fear losing their subsidy or job.

9. work for Monsanto and know their job will be gone.

10. work in a PRISON FOR PROFITS and WILL lose their job.

11. Work for the Insurance Industry and Medicare for all will cost them a lot of $$$$$ - again, it boils down to GREED.

12. work for the Defense Industry which, thankfully, will be losing a lot of money.

So, basically it ALL boils down to pure GREED. They have zero empathy for their fellow citizens. They have no empathy for people in war-torn countries. They don't care if people have affordable healthcare. It's like we're back in the narcissistic 80's. It's all about ME.

Bernie's Presidency will be ALL ABOUT EVERYONE...not just the 1%.

[fbc]

123. Progressives are excited about a progressive candidate

Imagine that!

[Enthusiast]

124. IMHO, life is a series of puzzles.

[merrily]

125. The other constant complaint: "They're bought and paid for. They owe their donors."

[hootinholler]

131. Yep I've heard that one too. n/t

[Faux pas]

127. I don't get it either

??????????????

[LiberalLovinLug]

129. Bernie is doing remarkably well

all things considered.
That is why he is even a contender in any way. That DESPITE the MSM ignoring him, DESPITE his, what some would call, radical socialist positions, and DESPITE not having a SuperPac...he draws the biggest crowds, and raises the most small money of the lot.

[nolabels]

130. If you listened to enough lies then hearing truth is always going to be omnipotent

The other side of the coin is if you are lazy and not willing to do the work in reading, listening, investigating and just plain spending some of your precious time in finding out what is going on, then of course the lies will be effective on you. You cannot change Human nature, it's just how it is.

You have to wait for catastrophe before people react enough to make change. We are just a lazy lot of animals when we think our effort will not matter much and we are told a good a enough lie to think we can believe otherwise.

[cannabis_flower]

133. Maybe

It's because people don't really want to be told the truth and instead want to be told what they want to hear.

[Android3.14]

134. You are operating under the fallacy that HRC supporters are backing a potential leader

But as her votes for the PATRIOT Act, IWR and support of the TPP show, she is incapable of actually leading, any more than the passengers fighting over the steering wheel of the GOP clown car can lead.

Just like supporters of the opposition party frontrunners, it's about image over substance.

[snagglepuss]

140. There is a famous quote somewhere about people prefering illusions

to truth. There are a number of illusions about Hillary that her supporters simply do not want challenged which reminds me of the scene in Streetcar Named Desire where Blanche Dubois asks for the light not to be turned on.

[Utopian Leftist]

142. It's like you hit a root nerve or something...

The underlying truth is that many of her supporters are fundamentally opposed to true, leftist, progressive, liberal policy ideas and solutions. It's not that they believe Hillary's rhetoric, it's that Bernie's rhetoric terrifies them, because at heart they desire more to express the conservative archetype than the liberal. At heart, they don't believe in helping Everyone (including our poor, many of whom are among the world's most desperate). They don't believe it's possible, they rationalize that it will hurt the economy, which we on the left know is absolute, utter bullshit, that in fact, raising the wages (and Social Security benefits) of those at the bottom will only strengthen and improve the economy. Anyone who doesn't know that yet should read Robert Reich or Thomas Piketty, end of story, drop the mic, etc, LOL.

That's the only reason I can think of why they'd sell out those of us who are desperate, and choose Her over a heroic, once in a lifetime, towering figure.

[Kokonoe]

148. Americans always vote for the best liar.

Honest and trustworthiness turns everything upside down. Its not fair when candidate-A can lie up a storm,

and candidate-B just walks around with the straight truth.

[rhett o rick]

150. It's not really that hard. We've raise a lot of authoritarians in America.

No liberal teachings, just find a leader, usually the biggest bully, and follow blindly. Doesn't matter if they are honest. It really doesn't matter if they ignore poverty or assaults on our freedoms. They want to be on the tough guy (or gal) side. And what could be better than siding with the billionaires?

[Maedhros]

151. Hillary supporters care more about their emotional attachment to their hero

than they do about liberal governance, the well-being of the country, or the truth.

Some are outright charlatans flinging mud.

[WillyT]

156. Color Me Confused...

We have a wonderful opportunity, and we are going to squelch it.

[ChiciB1]

157. It's Baffled Me From Day One... BUT I Also Believe Deep

down somewhere in my soul that "SOME THING'S" gonna happen. As a Boomer I had similar feelings way back then BEFORE we rose up and made our voices heard.

This country is at a tipping point and everywhere I look I'm seeing signs of unrest from older people right down to the ones who are making louder and louder noises. THE MILLENNIALS! There are THREE in my immediate family and as I listen to them talk and interact with them, they aren't like the young people who supported Obama and got out and worked for him. They're more jaded and I think MORE fed up and are unwilling to buy the same old crap.

It's kind of like I was way back when. Could I be imagining this? I suppose so, but something in my gut says what I'm feeling is going to have results. ENOUGH is ENOUGH, we say that here, but for them they might be thinking it's TIME to march, revolt or make our voices heard through our actions.

I'm seeing pockets of many people beginning to stand up and making a lot of noise.

IT COULD BE BERNIE who they will follow. I know what I'm hearing from my circle of younger kids and their friends. Nothing set in stone, but LOTS of angst and realization going on.

TIME WILL TELL!

[99Forever]

159. It defies logic.

Personally, I absolutely hate being lied to. Voting for a liar is not an option for me.

[Act_of_Reparation]

165. Because people are lying when they say they want a candidate who tells the truth.

They don't. They want a candidate who tells them what they want to hear.

Case in point: The Donald's staggering success.

[LWolf]

169. Because

most people, under the posturing, really just want to be sheep led by others?