2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA vote for Hillary is a vote FOR Citizens United.
A vote for Bernie is a vote AGAINST Citizens United.Remember that.
If you like the Citizens United decision and corporate funding of elections, you will love Hillary.
If you want full disclosure of the names of all political and issue donors, if you want elections in which no person or corporation or entity is allowed to donate more than you are allowed to donate, vote for Bernie.
If you want publicly funded election campaigns, vote for Bernie.
Otherwise, if you vote for Hillary or for a Republican, don't complain about the corporations' role in our government, because it is going to grow if either Hillary or a Republican is elected.
We can get overwhelmed by a lot of issues and gossip.
Citizens United is the bottom line.
Are we going to overturn it with our votes or not?
It's up to you and you and you . . . . . . .
Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)As she broke Q2 fundraising records with $75Million, not including SuperPACs. And then there's this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/05/14/hillary-clintons-litmus-test-for-supreme-court-nominees-a-pledge-to-overturn-citizens-united/
AllTooEasy
(1,260 posts)You keep posting this "reasoning" and it's still BS over and over and over again.
If Hillary wins the nomination, it will mean that more Democrats want her (and Bill) in the White House than Bernie. That's it! Nobody is voting FOR Hillary because she's using CU dollars. Bernie does not have lower poll numbers because folks abhor his donation limits.
You can minimize your interpretation of the possible nomination results to a single issue all you want, but numerous issues(and their messages) are involved here. Hillary is (currently) winning on the totality of those issues, and one of those issues is Bill. I don't believe that Hillary even needs CU dollars to defeat Bernie. She has the memory of the Bill Clinton years...the last time America was in good shape. I think many people really just want Bill, directly or indirectly, back in the White House. Bernie needs to convince people that his presidency would be better than Bill's. Hillary Rodham wouldn't stand a chance against Bernie, O'Malley, etc...but "Mrs. __fill_in_the_blank__ Clinton" comes in with a major advantage. Bernie supporters better come up with a better strategy than this crap.
Hillary has pledged to appoint justices that will overturn CU. She's been criticized for that litmus test, as noted in other posts to this article. The only way to reverse CU is with an anti-CU SCOTUS decision, or a constitutional amendment. All Dem candidates want anti-CU justices. If a Dem president(Bernie, Hillary, etc) wins the general and replaces pro-CU justices with anti-CU justices, then your interpretation is a mute point.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)That would be a great statement. And she is the one who could make it.
I invite her to do that.
We need a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United for good.
The corporations are very strong and as long as they want Citizens United and we don't join to end that corporate dominance of our election finance system, they will get a court to reinstate it.
Think how long we had the 14th and 15th Amendments, yet we still had "separate but equal" and diminished voting rights for African-Americans in parts of the country.
It will take a real movement to get corporate money out of politics just as it took a real movement to at least start on increasing rights for all Americans, not just white Americans.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)are done in this country. At that point, dog help us cause our government seems disinterested in the job.
Joe Turner
(930 posts)His deeds have matched his words. Sanders, unlike Hillary, does not have to take multiple positions on the same issue. I think you are doing a bit of projection there. Since Hillary's positions cannot stand the light of day her supporters seem to feel they have to engage in mass propaganda and smears.
Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)Not sure why I would confuse the two.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)I'd suggest looking into the history of CU before making these unfounded and ignorant statements.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)That's a HELLUVA stretch!
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Is this a joke post?
Persondem
(1,936 posts)From this NYT article ...
"Most presidential candidates go out of their way to avoid appearances of having a litmus test for Supreme Court appointees. So it was unusual when Mrs. Clinton on Monday said publicly that she did have such a metric: overturning the Citizens United decision of 2010.
I will do everything I can to appoint Supreme Court justices who protect the right to vote and do not protect the right of billionaires to buy elections, Mrs. Clinton said while on Day 1 of a two-day swing through Iowa."
Two days after the CU decision she stated her opposition ...
"Clinton, who'd since become secretary of state, criticized the ruling in emails with a top aide. She and the aide expressed particular concern that a foreign agent could use a corporation to sidestep prohibitions on making campaign contributions.
"This is unbelievable," Clinton wrote to a confidant two days after the decision."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)EOM
randys1
(16,286 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here is why:
If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
randys1
(16,286 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)nevermind?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bernie's is not.
I draw the conclusion from those facts that Hillary is going to have a hard time shutting off the gas valve.
For Bernie, shutting that gas valve off will be just a continuation of his political life. He has never been extremely dependent on corporate support.
And now, he is not accepting donations over $2700.
Walk the walk. Don't just talk the talk.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Sanders is losing by such a wide margin.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)And, more importantly they make him LOOK like a loser.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)those who have a violent swatter used to smash the sig line bug of a long-term DUer.
Why they're not banned for this, I don't know.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)This would be my guess as to why no one will be banned for using it.
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)But this is who we're dealing with. And the funny thing is, when you ignore them, they don't go away. They're like those conservatives that are only happy when they're being confrontational assholes. I'm not going to block them, but it's not worth it trying to debate them. I'd have to lower my IQ by a lot to make it a fair debate
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You are behaving as if the sole difference between the candidates is their source of funds.
People like or dislike candidates for all sorts of reasons and non-reasons.
But the notion that the only variable here is the source of funding, as if this were some factor-controlled scientific laboratory experiment, is just horseshit.
Nah, it'd be too easy.
reddread
(6,896 posts)increase your bills to spite your own faces.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for
Essentially, actions speak louder than words. Voting for the corporate money candidate sends a message far beyond the vote itself. It says that, when all is said and done, the voter could care less where a candidate's money comes from. What matters to that voter is the slick, expensive packaging that corporate money buys.
I'm reminded constantly on DU by Hillary supporters that her stands on the issues are perfectly fine and not that different on most things than Sanders but that she is a woman and the machine politicians want her to win.
Of course the machine politicians want Hillary. They want the corporate money she bring with her. They want to be able to raise that corporate money themselves -- that is all but the most honest politicians want to continue dialing the rich for dollars.
I'm saying that each of us has an obligation, a moral and a patriotic obligation to think about campaign financing when we vote. Do we want the candidate who has raised the most money from the rich and from corporations to win as usual, or do we this once want to prove that we want the money from the rich and from corporations out of our election funding?
It's up to us. It's up to you.
This is an issue that goes beyond personality and that for me overrides all other issues.
If we cannot get the corporate money and the money of the wealthy out of our elections, out of our political campaigns, or at least reduce it considerably, then we WILL eventually lose our democracy. It is going very fast.
We cannot afford to continue to allow other issues to distract us from this one, primary issue that will be decided in this primary campaign.
Do we want corporate money to continue to dominate our elections? Then we should vote for Hilary because she represents that point of view.
Or do we want campaign finance reform that gets that money maybe not entirely out of elections but that prevents it from dominating our elections, the choice of our candidates and the direction of our country?
If the latter is our desire, then our choice is Bernie.
I hope you will join with me in voting for Bernie if only to get corporate money and the money of the very wealthiest in our elections under control.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)We're all waiting for your factual argument.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)when their only reply is...
Nuh uh!!! LMAO
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Why do boycotts work? Because the fear of losing business overcomes the desire to do things that are wrong or harmful to others.
The money that Hillary is getting from the corporations and the 1% is harmful to our democracy. We need to boycott that money. It's not just about Hillary. She is doing what all the dime-a-dozen politicians do: dialing for dollars and then some.
But if we the people refuse to vote for those who do that dialing for dollars with the wealthy elite and corporations, maybe they will be moved to do the right thing.
For example, Hillary could give the corporate donations and speaking fees she has received from people with corporate interests back to those donors. Why not?
If we all promised to vote only for candidates who don't take the Citizens United, that is, corporate money, then she would have nothing to lose.
Why don't we try that?
Bernie is already on the right side on this issue.
Why doesn't Hillary do what is right on it too?
Do you think she would lose votes if she gave the dirty money back?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I answered your question. Now please will you answer mine.
What is wrong with my logic in your view?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Someone's pulling your leg right now.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)was an attack on Hillary by a SuperPAC, releasing a 'movie' about a candidate counter to FEC rules. It went to the conservative Supreme Court - which approved attacking Hillary!!!
But you all go on with yourselves thinking Hillary has no dog in this hunt.
And no worries about who is going to get the bulk of the money - and god knows what is coming next!
iandhr
(6,852 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)No one likes that.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here is my reasoning:
If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Is it that "she can win?" Because she can only win if we vote for her.
If we don't vote for Hillary, the Citizens United poster child candidate, but rather vote for Bernie, the citizens donations' candidate, then Hillary does not win.
Why in the world vote for Hillary other than for her money, her proverbial "polish" which is the result of expensive haircuts and clothes and campaign dollars spread about profusely to the Democrats who endorse her (or at least those Democrats hope it will spread to them).
iandhr
(6,852 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)She has a superpac.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)in the primaries because it is a vote for Citizens' United?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Other issues including Black Lives Matter, economic issues, guns, the environment, you name it, will not be properly and democratically resolved until we get big money out of politics.
We will continue to have a conservative, Republican majority in the House and a lot of Republicans in the Senate and in state governor's mansions and legislatures until we get big, big money out of politics
Rose Siding
(32,623 posts)Why wouldn't I want someone who uses all the tools in the box? Bernie can tie a hand behind his back and run the way he wishes it can be done, but that just isn't reality. It's quixotic.
Hillary opposed and opposes CU and will work to overturn it. That must not involve handing the gops the presidency to do it.
As for your argument, the main flaw is in the "it will be interpreted to mean". By whom? and who cares? It can only be changed once our elected govt battles it out, not by a weakened candidate.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)corporations, then we should not want sgive tomeone to use those tools because they diminish the ability of the candidate who uses those tools to listen to us and to govern in our interests.
The money in that tool box comes at a price.
We see that price in our society right now. Stagnant wages, environmental damage by large, powerful, big-donor polluting companies, corporate tax deals that reward outsourcing, hiding money overseas and just generally give tax breaks to those who pay for them, trade deals that harm us and were negotiated not by the representatives of ordinary Americans but by the representatives of big corporations of America.
The list of things that constitute the price we pay is very long. We cannot afford it. Our balance of payment deficit and our dwindling social programs plus our decaying infrastructure are the proofs that we cannot afford Citizens United.
Big money from the 1% and the corporations should not be permitted in our country. We should all be allowed to make a certain maximum donation, and that's it. All donations should be given by flesh and blood human beings and the names of the humans who give them should be published.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)justices. Clinton, or any other Democratic President will appoint such justices. In the meantime, there is an election to win with Citizens United in place. The winning candidate will need to use it. Any candidate who does not will lose. And that's the simple truth.
That's the entire story. That's why Bernie Sanders is a poor choice as the Democratic nominee, unless you want a Republican President. Purity will lose in 2016.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Hillary has a SC nomination litmus test. CU. Period!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Citizens United will only go away for sure with a constitutional amendment.
If we leave it up to the Supreme Court, we are most likely to get a modification of the decision which can be modified further. Stare decisis, you know.
Citizens United established a precedent, an interpretation of the Constitution that will take more than new Supreme Court justices to change. (Although a new Court would not hurt at all, of course.)
Here is my reasoning, the reasoning behind my OP>
If Hillary wins the nomination, it will be interpreted to mean that a candidate cannot win by limiting donations to amounts that ordinary people can afford.
If Hillary wins, it will strengthen the argument that we should continue to operate under the Citizens United campaign funding rules.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United.
We voters make choices, and our choices are interpreted as carrying a message.
A vote for Hillary will be interpreted as meaning that we voters do not mind the status quo Citizne United campaign funding policy at all.
In the future, as unions dwindle in size and strength, corporations will determine the policies and direction of our country more and more. I hope that all Democrats will consider this when deciding who to vote for.
To get the amendment to the Constitution that we need to overturn or render the Citizens United decision no longer the law of the land for sure, we need to show with our votes that we no longer can be persuaded by the glitz and polish that corporate money permits our candidates to have.
That is why I say that a vote for Hillary, with all her polish, her corporate polish, is a vote for Citizens United.
If we sincerely want to send the message that we will not be distracted by polish, corporate polish, the polish that wealth affords candidates, then we must vote for Bernie.
It's quite simple. We need to boycott the campaign finance system of corporate money and huge donations from very rich people.
Democrats of course are none of them as bad as the Republicans are in this respect. But we have two candidates, one funded to a great extent by corporate money, the other not.
So we have a choice. And I am reminding people that when we vote, we are voting not only on the candidate for the general election but also on the issue of corporate funding of elections.
It's time for corporate funding to end in my view. That is one of the reasons I am voting for Bernie.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)That's my advice. How do you think a Republican administration and Congress will handle that amendment, eh?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)...to overturn Citizens United.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Same approach Hilary has taken in her fight to end citizens united, I am sure the approach to quit drinking by buying the vodka works every time.
Hypocrisy is funny, but not very effective.
Let me know if Hillary stops with her drinking the money problem.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)After all she NEEDS that money to run against the Republican money...not to mention she needs the threat of the Republican money to con Democrats out of theirs.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)She can fight for it, but the magic wand has been out of order for a long time in D.C.
If Russ Feingold comes back, there maybe a chance to do SOME reforms....
And, if she appoints some good Supremes...ah, then, we can do without the amendment stuff, perhaps things can change faster...
And Sanders can't do anymore than that either!!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)want reform of campaign financing RIGHT NOW and no later. That's what electing Sanders will do. Electing Hillary will send the message that we just talk about ending Citizens United, but we don't really mean it. We don't really care.
A vote for Hillary says the voter does not care one way or the other about Citizens United.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)That is why we have had a major shift in gun laws, a renewal of the voting rights act, acceptance of reproductive rights....NOT !
Yeah, sure, the GOP is trembling in fear...
This is not a Frank Capra movie....
oasis
(49,389 posts)work within the system to change the existing rules. Hillary will take on Citizen's United from within.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)HE opposes something and immediately takes action, iow, his words match his actions.
Hillary SAYS she opposes it, USES it to fund her Super Pacs, which serve only one purpose, to SMEAR and attack other Democratic candidates.
So explain to me, why if she plans to 'take them on' she chose not to do it at all.
Bernie is taking them on RIGHT NOW!
oasis
(49,389 posts)This is part of her winning strategy. If a candidate thinks they can win by using a different strategy, that's okay by me.
Only time will tell which strategy will yield the best results.
Sure she will.
Not and never.
oasis
(49,389 posts)I'm sure you're going be pleasantly surprised.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Geithner, for example.
Life does not work that way.
You don't end an alcohol addiction by drinking another beer.
i-should- be-working
(48 posts)HRC is clearly 3rd way anointed whose primary interest is control through access to the money pipeline, so you can bet she'd slow walk her support for federally funded elections. Sure she's happy to proclaim a litmus test, as if that is all it takes. Bernie is far more likely to mediate the issue between the parties because, happily, he is an independent ...
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)and both parties just like on Blacklist
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)of made up tales.
Just a little home work would have saved your reputation. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251787719
You should consider deleting the op...its simply not a truth. I don't know if this is accidental ignorance or willful ignorance, but it's just plain wrong.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)She had already laid out her plan to get rid of CU. It was done to help the GOP who thought they could raise lots of money and the Democrats could not and they would win the elections. They were wrong. Democrats has raised money quiet well.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Far too many Democrats are feeling the benefit of corporate largesse. Many practically glisten from their money baths.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)to raise money to run against the money pouring into the GOP campaign???
The money won't drop from the sky, either, on angels' wings.
Get real!
pinebox
(5,761 posts)DrBulldog
(841 posts). . . with the majority of 75,000,000 millennials behind him, ONLY Bernie's election will likely bring at least one house of Congress back under Democratic rule, allowing Bernie actually to FIX some of our horrible problems!
But if we elect Hillary, she will end up sitting on her butt for four years in the Oval Office doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
moobu2
(4,822 posts)that a President Sanders would be able to do whatever he wanted to if he were to get elected. The only way Citizens United can be undone is through the Supreme Court and Hillary would have a better chance to get a left leaning Supreme Court nominee confirmed. A president Sanders nominee would be laughed out of the Senate.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)message that the people are fed up not just with big money donors but with the candidates they support. Right now, Hillary is the poster-child of a candidate who takes the money from the big-money donors.
All of them want and will expect her loyalty and assistance in return for that money. If they don't they are fools, and most of them didn't make and don't keep their money by being fools.
So a vote against Hillary sends the message that we will not back the candidates who take money from the big-money donors. They won't get our votes. The rich might as well keep their money and do something really useful or at least fun with it because it isn't going to get us to vote for their candidates.
Before the internet we could not do this.
And if big-money and the media get their way, and Hillary is our nominee and an equally big-money-donor is the nominee on the Republican side, the internet laws will be changed and we will not have this window of opportunity to express ourselves clearly on Citizens United.
This is it guys. We either get dark money out of politics by voting for Bernie or we never will.
I don't expect Hillary fans to like my idea right away. But I suspect that many of them will think about it and come to understand that I am right.
Who is getting Comcast money? Not Bernie.
And what does Comcast want? As much of the media as it can possibly control.
Bernie will not go for that. Hillary????? If Comcast is willing to donate enough to her campaign, who knows?
That's politics when you have Citizens United and dark money in the mix.
And Hillary is part of that dark money mix.
Sanders is not.
revmclaren
(2,524 posts)The desperation is REALLY showing!
Clinton 2016...
The more Hillory hate I see, the more sure I become that Clinton is winning!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Please read the posts in which I explain what I am talking about.
antigop
(12,778 posts)the swarm shows up.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)as time passes.
That is the way things work here. You come up with an idea and over time it's everyone's idea.
My argument is very clear and makes sense. People need to sleep over it. Maybe consider it a while. Then they will understand -- or at least some will understand.
antigop
(12,778 posts)Gothmog
(145,321 posts)Both Clinton and O'Malley are also against Citizens United. President Obama was also against Citizens United. However President Obama with the best small dollar fund raising machine in the history of the Democratic Party still had to use a super pac to keep the spending close. Sanders plan to fore-go super pacs is noble but will doom him and explains why Sanders will not be the nominee. Let outline three reasons why I strongly disagree with the OP and the premise on which the OP is based.
First, the OP ignores the fact that Sanders is simply not viable in a general election contests which is why Sanders will not be the nominee. Sanders is not expanding his appeal to other voters in large part because no one has shown that Sanders is viable in a general election contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate may be spending another billion dollars. This lack of viability will keep sanders from expanding his appeal to other groups in the Democratic coalition. Sanders is not going to appeal to voters in key demographic blocks without some real evidence of viability. For example, African American voters are concerned about electability http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/09/bernie_sanders_presidential_campaign_what_would_it_take_for_the_vermont.html
Again, Sanders would have a stronger campaign if someone could provide a good explanation as to viability. Nominating Sanders would be a vain and useless act unless one can show that he can win in the general election and no one believes this (including Sanders own campaign manager).
Second, the OP assumes Sanders actually thinks that he can win the nomination. Sanders own campaign manager is not clear on this and only wants Sanders to be a meaningful candidate. if you read the last three paragraphs of this article from Sanders campaign manager, Sanders campaign manager does not outline a path to the nomination but a path to be a "serious" candidate. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/12/bernie-sanders-s-strategist-this-is-how-we-win.html
Sanderss outsider campaign has been likened to Jesse Jacksons insurgent campaign in 1988it wasnt until the Wisconsin primary in April that Michael Dukakis defeated Jackson. But Devine thinks the more apt analogy to todays politics is 1984 when the combination of Gary Harts insurgency and Jacksons coalition of minority voters together almost beat Walter Mondale. Jackson never received support from the institutional party, but he demanded respect. If we register, as Jesse Jackson did, millions of people, that would be a huge lift for the party in Senate races. And for whichever Democrat reaches the magic number of delegates next year to secure the nomination.
The idea that Sanders is good for the Democratic Party is a hard lesson for Clinton to appreciate in the heat of battle. But hes got voters fired up and ready to go, and Democrats need that energy.
The apparent goal of this campaign is not for Sanders to be the nominee but to be considered a serious candidate who might almost beat Hillary Clinton. Again, that means that a vote for Sanders is at best a protest vote which will do nothing to undo Citizens United.
This article is silent on what Sanders intend to do in a general election contest in that it appears that Sanders campaign manager does not expect that Sanders will be the nominee. A vote for Sanders is not a vote to change Citizens United if even Sanders own campaign manager doubts that he will be the nominee.
Third, the OP ignores that the only way to change Citizens United is to win the White House in 2016. Clinton and others (including Sanders) have promised to appoint SCOTUS justices who will vote to repeal Citizens United. The only other way of changing Citizens United is to regain control of both houses of Congress with veto proof majorities and pass legislation to lessen the effect of Citizens United or to pass a constitutional amendment to undo Citizens United. Neither one of of these alternatives are likely. Appointing Justices to the SCOTUS who will vote to overturn Citizens United is the only viable mechanism of undoing this decision.
A vote for Sanders is not an effective way to change Citizens United. I live in the real world and in the real world one does not support a candidate who cannot win.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We don't yet know who will win.
Life brings surprises.
The only way to change Citizens United is to prove that the people do not want dark money in campaigns. The only way to prove that is to vote for the candidate who does not take dark money, and that is Sanders and only Sanders.
Voting for Hillary is a vote for the status quo with regard to election funding. I am quite familiar with the facts of the Citizens United case. I know that Hillary was the plaintiff. But that does not change the fact that right now, she represents the beneficiaries of Citizens United.
Bernie is the only clean money candidate in this race. Voting for him is a way to say no to Citizens United.
Voting for Hillary says yes to Citizens United.
I like to knit and sew but I do not go to Hobby Lobby stores because I object to their policies on women's health issues.
My refusal to shop in their stores is meant to send a message.
Not voting for Hillary, similarly sends a message that we don't like the way she is funding her campaign.
As long as dark money wins elections, we will have dark money in our campaigns. It's as simple as that. Hillary has dark money in her campaign, and regardless of what she says, a vote for her sends the message that the dark money in her campaign is just hunky-dory, A-OK and fine and dandy.
That's not the message I want to send.
Maybe others want to send that message, but I do not.
A vote for Hillary is a vote for Citizens United. A vote for Bernie is a vote against Citizens United. Just remember that.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)The Kochs are going to be spending $887 million and the GOP nominee will likely spend another billion dollars. Bernie Sanders is a good man but I doubt that he can compete against such financial resources. Some candidates are better able to raise the funds necessary to complete. President Obama blew everyone away in 2008 with his small donor fundraising efforts and that made it clear that he was electable. Jeb is trying to do the same on the GOP side with his $100 million super pac.
This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine
I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that hes going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances and hes an enormously important progressive voice, Lessig said.
President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac.
This is still the primary process and I am still not convinced that Sanders is viable in a general election fight. Negative ads work and the only way to fight such ads is with your own commercials which require financial resources
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)But money can't replace ideas.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)You know, like her idea for re-financing student loans, and that the government shouldn't be involved in having people make money off those student loans.
Money is not equal to the concept of "We, the People", unless you convolute your message, using a weathervane as your compass.
K&R
yardwork
(61,650 posts)This vilifying of our Democratic front runner is beyond stupid.