2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI don't think there is a serious poster here who expects to change another poster's mind
I know I certainly don't expect to change any other poster from Hillary to Bernie.
On the other hand DU is a "tough room" and GD-P is an even tougher one, a lot of people are intimidated by the level of vitriol in here and never post but only lurk and those are the people I hope to reach.
Take a look at any highly recced thread in GD-P and you'll see names that never post in this forum, they are lurking in here reading the threads and there are undoubtedly other lurkers who never register and hence never show up at all.
I know out in real life three people who read DU on an occasional basis but have never registered here or in fact on any discussion type forum. Lurkers outnumber posters on every forum I've ever seen the statistics for, usually by several times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_%28Internet_culture%29
olddots
(10,237 posts)an adiction in a lonely world of 7 billion people who don't like people .
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)I agree, there are people that treat internet argumentation as some kind of game. It is odd.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)And it never happens in a flash of light on the road to Damascus.
Unless the individual suffers a cataclysmic change in fortune.
It happens with one grain of information at a time.
My mind has changed from things I learned here.
Though not from any single conversation.
longship
(40,416 posts)I am increasingly coming over to your style here. You deserve any and all respect here for your rational arguments.
With all due humility.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Have a hug, my friend.
And keep on keeping it on.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)This thread is another example of your positive contributions to DU.
Jharr827
(32 posts)And I'm afraid to even post anything here because idw to be attacked! I'm still weighing my options on who to vote for. i find some post enlightening but most are disturbing. not that i don't want to know negative things about each of them but it's hard to know what to believe.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I support Clinton but if you make your case without dissing other candidates I will have your back, regardless of which candidate you choose.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Its pretty intense but please know it does smooth out once the candidate is selected.
I find that going to each individual candidates websites has been the most informative - not what I've learned here. You'd never hear about Martin O'Malley here for example since the posts about him are pretty well drowned out. But take a look at his website and you'll be stunned at how excellent he is.
Good luck on your journey!
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Just don't take anything personally, and you'll be fine.
The vast majority of posters here will not attack you and will treat you with respect.
Unfortunately, there are a few who will make disparaging remarks about your post count...a practice I despise. Just remember, everyone was new here once.
If I'm attacked, (and I have been), I usually just respond that I'm finished with that conversation. The ignore feature is one that many posters use as well, though I've never done so.
There's a welcome and help forum too, if you have any questions.
Hang in there!
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Every single DUer has every right to present the best case for their preferred candidate. What they should avoid is dis the other candidate with false or incomplete information with the intent to smear. NO candidate is perfect. What we try to do is make an assessment which candidate will be most effective as the next president of the United States...and why.
The best thing to do is to make the case as best you can for your preferred candidate and avoid attacking the supporters of the other candidate. Browbeating never works, and it only makes your preferred candidate less appealing.
That said, I will vote for whichever candidate wins the Democratic Party primary, and I will do it enthusiastically and happily, with NO reserve. Because each and every one of them is FAR BETTER, hands down, than any Republican.
Just my two cents. Welcome to DU!
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)write the editor or make an on-line comment?
Just saying...poor use of the term, nothing personal.
Jharr827
(32 posts)Anyone a lurker? I don't think there's anything wrong with that!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)A rose by any other name, yes?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)non-posting guest or casual reader at DU.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)An old sig line from very long ago...
Honestly I don't see it as a negative term, I lurk on several forums around the web where I know I'm not up to speed on the subject matter sufficiently to avoid making a fool of myself.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Jharr827
(32 posts)It's nice to hear. I'm going to start posting and just hope I don't piss people off. Can you list reasons you are voting for her?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Next, I'm not sure if you have the posting thing figured out quite yet, if you are replying to an Original Post, OP, then you click the reply button there, if you are replying to another reply then click the reply button in that reply.
I think you intended in this case to reply to another reply and the poster may not see it since you replied to my OP.
Again, welcome...
Jharr827
(32 posts)I really just want to know about the canidents without the nastiness. I'm willing to listen to anyone who wants to tell me why I should vote for their preferred canidents!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The more recommends (recs) an OP has with fewer replies the higher quality it will be usually.
If an OP has a lot of replies and few recs the thread is likely to be a flame war.
OPs with a lot of replies and a lot of recs are a mixed bag, sometimes they can be high quality and sometimes not.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That is their problem, not yours.
You are only responsible for what YOU write.
One of my DU friends ,woo me with science, (no longer here) penned some words or wisdom about the disruptors or thread spammers:
The goal.... is not to convince anyone of anything.
It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.
It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.
The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
Welcome.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)FSogol
(45,487 posts)security:
Our parents and grandparents should be able to retire in dignitynot poverty. Yet today in America, too many retirees are struggling to make ends meet. At the same time, the economic pressures on millions of familiesfrom stagnant wages and high housing costs, to a lack of affordable childcare and skyrocketing college tuitionhave resulted in meager, if any, retirement savings for tomorrows retirees.
Our government must do more to improve the economic and retirement security of all Americans. That is why Governor OMalley has set a national goal of increasing the number of Americans with adequate retirement savings by 50 percent within two terms in office.
As the first and most important step toward meeting that goal, Governor OMalley will expand Social Security benefitsnot reduce them or undermine Social Security in any other way. Second, OMalley will also make it easier for private-sector workers to invest in their retirement. He will put commonsense protections in place to prevent older Americans from losing the savings they already have. And to ensure that all families can afford to save for retirement in the first place, OMalley will continue to put forward detailed policies to raise the wages of all workers.
EXPAND AND PROTECT SOCIAL SECURITY FOR CURRENT AND FUTURE RETIREES
Social Security is one of our countrys greatest collective achievements. Since it was first implemented in 1935, Social Security has kept millions of elderly Americans out of poverty. Todayfollowing the Great Recession, which decimated the retirement savings of millions of AmericansSocial Security remains an especially critical lifeline for our parents and grandparents: without it, more than four in 10 Americans over 65 would be living in poverty.
We cannot ask seniors with modest savings to live on even less. Instead, we should expand Social Security so they can retire with the dignity they have earned over the course of their working lives.
As president, Governor OMalley will:
Increase Social Security benefits for all retireesboth todays and tomorrows. Governor OMalley supports immediately boosting monthly benefits in a progressive manner for all Social Security was intended as a supplement to individual savings and pensions, but today, one in five married couples, and nearly half of unmarried individuals, rely almost exclusively on Social Security checks to survive. More than two-thirds of Americans near retirement will not have enough savings to maintain their current standard of living.
Strengthen Social Securitys long-term fiscal outlook. The solvency of Social Security is not in crisis: Social Security has adequate funds to pay full benefits through 2034. But to pay for expanded benefits, Governor OMalley supports lifting the cap on the payroll tax for workers earning more than $250,000.In addition, Congress should implement policies to lift the wages of all workers, which will make meaningful contributions to Social Securitys long-term balance sheet. This includes raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and enacting comprehensive immigration reform.
Ensure Social Security benefits are sufficient to keep retirees out of poverty. The immediate future is dire for many Americans nearing retirement: one in five Americans has no retirement savings at all. To keep seniors out of poverty, Governor OMalley supports increasing the special minimum social security benefit to 125 percent of the poverty line for Americans who have worked at least 30 years.
Increase Social Security benefits for minimum wage- and lower-income workers. As wealth inequality continues to widen and traditional middle class jobs prove harder to come by, Governor OMalley supports adjusting bend points in the formula to give minimum-wage and lower- and middle-income workers more financial security.
Prevent benefits from eroding over time. Governor OMalley supports using the Consumer Price Index for the Elderly (CPI-E) instead of the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners (CPI-W) to determine Social Securitys cost-of-living adjustments. The CPI-E provides a more accurate reflection of the higher cost of living for retirees than the current measure, which focuses on younger workers. Using the CPI-E will ensure that benefits do not erode for future generations of retirees.
Reform Social Security to support, rather than penalize, caregiving. Governor OMalley supports providing up to five years of caregiver credits that would increase the 35-year wage base for those who spend an extended period of time providing full-time care for children, elderly parents, or other dependents. In practice, current methods of calculating benefits penalize workers, most often women, who take extended time off to care for their families.
Reject efforts to raise the Social Security retirement age. Governor OMalley believes that raising the retirement age is a back-door way to cut benefits for lower-income workers. It harms these workers in two ways: by forcing them to delay retirement in jobs that are often physically difficult, and by reducing lifetime payouts compared to wealthier retirees, who live five years longer on average than their lower-income counterparts.
CREATE SIMPLE, STREAMLINED RETIREMENT SAVINGS OPPORTUNITIES
With the days of defined benefit plans long past, millions of hardworking Americans lack adequate savings to support their standards of living when they retire. Nearly one in three Americans has no retirement savings, rising to one in two for Americans under the age of 30. Current investment vehicles such as defined contribution plans and IRAs have been grossly inadequate and underutilized for preparing most working Americans for comfortable retirements.
As president, Governor OMalley will:
Dramatically expand access to employer-based retirement plans. Half of all workers do not have access to a retirement plan. Among part-time and low-income workers, roughly seven in 10 lack an employer-based retirement option. Governor OMalley would require employers with more than 10 employees to process an automatic employee contribution to an IRA for all employees, at a level determined by the employee (who would have the option to opt out).
Raise wages so all workers can afford to save. Since millions of hardworking Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck and struggle to save for retirement, raising the minimum wage and other wage policies are also critical to ensuring that todays workers can retire with dignity and security in the future.
PROTECT SENIORS FROM RISKS TO THEIR FINANCIAL SECURITY
Older Americans face increased financial risks that threaten their ability to retire with dignity. Every day, unscrupulous lenders and scam artists attempt to separate seniors from their lifelong earnings. Republicans in Congress bent on slashing budgets attempt to undermine Social Security and other vital programs. And a growing number of aging Americans who need quality long-term care cannot afford it.
Implementing measures to better protect seniors from these threats to their financial security will help provide a stronger retirement firewall for millions of Americans.
As president, Governor OMalley will:
Reject efforts to privatize Social Security. Governor OMalley views proposals to privatize Social Security for what they area massive benefits cut that will gut Social Security, add to the federal debt, and leave future generations without the critical protections Social Security has provided for decades.
Increase penalties for those who defraud our seniors. Older Americans are often targets for financial scams and exploitation, at an estimated cost of nearly $3 billion a year. The vast majority of frauds go unreported. Governor OMalley will advocate for policies to protect our seniors from financial fraud, including laws to increase penalties for the financial exploitation of older Americans, laws to allow financial advisors to refuse or delay transactions where clients are being defrauded or exploited, programs to better identify and report financial exploitation among older Americans, and increased investment in prosecutors and advocates to go after elderly abuse.
Fully implement the fiduciary rule. Under existing retirement advice rules, some brokers and financial advisers are allowed to sell Americans products even if they know they are poor investments. This conflict of interest, where advisers put their own bottom lines before helping their clients, costs workers saving for retirement $17 billion every year. President Obama has proposed a critical and commonsense rule to require those who give financial advice to put their clients interests first. Governor OMalley will fully enforce this important fiduciary standard, protecting the retirement savings of millions of Americans and creating a level playing field for the many investment advisers who already act in their customers best interests.
Make affordable, high-quality long-term care a national priority. Americans longer lifespans are outpacing our ability to provide quality and affordable long-term care. Although seven out of 10 Americans will need home care at some point in their lives, many Americans and their families struggle to afford it. Nine out of 10 people who provide long-term care are women, while home care workers are underpaid, overworked, and lack important benefits and protections.As baby boomers age, now is the time to move forward, working with the private sector, to develop an efficient, affordable, and high-quality system to provide a diverse range of long-term care services for our seniors. Governor OMalley will lay out a comprehensive plan for reforming long-term care and supporting caregivers in the coming weeks and months.
Link: https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/expanding-social-security/
Link to all of his plans in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12813600#top
* Usually
He's the only one I haven't seen anything bad about and that helps. I will check out his website thanks for the info
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Jharr827
(32 posts)But I do need help in deciding which way to go!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Here is an OP I wrote on it a while back..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026279173
I'd like it if we could give each other the benefit of the doubt when wordings aren't perfect, a lot of us dash posts off and don't really consider every word with the exquisite care necessary in order to be completely unambiguous. I'm certainly guilty also of jumping on language that's not precise and taking the worst possible interpretation. I do try not to be a complete ass about things but like everyone else I'm far from perfect, I have my blind spots and my prejudices.
Jharr827
(32 posts)Question: how long before I don't have to wait 3 mins between postings?!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I think it's mainly to stop commercial spam which can be a problem sometimes.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)...the information that the corporate-owned media tries to pass on to us, and no better site for links to, information for you to help inform yourself.
Welcome to DU!
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)Jharr827
(32 posts)I meant learning more about the candidates. Not actually someone telling me who to vote for.
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)Jharr827
(32 posts)I should've worded differently sry
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)On Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
This serious poster does hope to change minds. Not sheshe's, not bravenak's, but some.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=785617
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Callout of DU members -- against DU TOS. Hide this pronto!
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:43 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh give me a BREAK! Leave it!!!!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is absolutely a call-out.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Too directed at one person IMHO
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Cannot reply to automated messages
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... that leads me to believe I'll never change either of their minds.
To sheshe and bravenak, my apologies. While I think you are wrong on Hillary, I do admire your resilience and tenacity.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)I was waiting a bit and then would have PM'd you.
Personal opinion...the alert thing is out of control.
donco
(1,548 posts)member of DU for quite some time( 2006,).Spend most of my time lurking aboutbut never considered myself intimidated by the level of vitriol.
As a matter of fact, I belong to a debate site where we have rather heated debates on all subjects including politics.Most of those that throw out the vitriolI ignore.There little than more static in the background or a mild form of tinnitus.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)People are just here to troll each other.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)For me it's interaction with people who also want to improve the world around us. People I enjoy most here have a healthy sense of humor. They can see another's side to an argument.
The vitriolic stuff is like driving by an accident. Fascinating from an observational standpoint.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Although most everyone I know in real life would probably describe my sense of humor as more strange then healthy, I'm one of those people who tends to laugh in the "wrong" places in movies and TV shows for instance.
There are some posters here who seem totally devoid of any sense of humor other than maybe a really ugly bullying type of one.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I'm like you, I go contrary to the conventional. In junior high there was a slide show of 'ugly animals' & 'adorable animals.' I'd go 'Awwww!' to the ugly ones and and 'Ewwwww!' to the cute ones.
Laughing at myself is one of my favorite things. I'll post something long-winded then look at the post and go 'Blah blah blah!' or 'TL;DR!'
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)It' may seem a matter of semantics but changing a person's mind doesn't only mean converting a person's opinion from one position to another.
Changing a mind from unaware to aware is a heck of a change of mind.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)That's a great observation HereSince1628.
I've learned most from the African American Group, the Race & Ethnicity Groups, the Women's Groups, the Gender & Orientation Groups, the Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Group & the Macintosh Users Group. Mainly from reading, occasionally from posting & interacting.
It's funny, when I first started reading here I'd look at some posts and say to myself 'why are they always harping on that stuff, they are disrupting the conversation with their single issue.' As time went on, reading their posts is where I've learned the most about other people's experiences!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)See my post in this thread about how difficult it is to write in an unambiguous manner, I probably should have used a different phrase than "changed mind" but that's water under the bridge.
Over the years I have actually changed quite a few minds, as you say from unaware to aware and that was a good way to put it.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I think it's fair to say that behavior in GDP is by and large about publicly rallying supporters rather than changing people's minds sensu shifting support from one to another candidate.
The pursuit of creating spectacles that rally nearby supporters, and offends fans of other candidates sometimes descends into the DU GDP equivalent of futball hooliganism.
But, it's hard to get much satisfaction from posting a emoticon of a vuvuzela.
elleng
(130,914 posts)O'Malley's Plans are here, and these sure as hell SHOULD result in some changes of mind:
15 Goals to Rebuild the American Dream
https://martinomalley.com/category/15-goals/
Addiction treatment and prevention
https://martinomalley.com/policy/addiction-treatment-and-prevention/
Criminal Justice Reform
https://martinomalley.com/policy/criminal-justice/
Making College Debt Free for all Americans
https://martinomalley.com/policy/make-college-debt-free/
Holding Wall Street Accountable
https://14d2r744okfe40r1ug1oqm6y-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/OMalley-Wall-Street-Reform.pdf
Expanding Social Security
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/expanding-social-security/
Homeland Security
https://martinomalley.com/vision/homeland-security/
Immigration
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/immigration/
National Service
https://martinomalley.com/national-service/
Environment
https://martinomalley.com/climate/iowa/
https://martinomalley.com/climate/
https://martinomalley.com/climate/agenda/
Foreign Policy
https://martinomalley.com/policy/truman-national-security/
Gun Reform
https://martinomalley.com/policy/preventing-and-reducing-gun-violence/
Trade Policy
https://martinomalley.com/policy/trade-policy/
Campaign Finance Reform (Restoring our American Democracy)
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/restoring-our-american-democracy/
Why We Need a Constitutional Amendment to Secure the Right to Vote:
https://martinomalley.com/the-latest/news/right-to-vote/
Tax Reform
(Coming Soon)
Veterans and Military Families
https://martinomalley.com/policy/veterans/
AND his newly announced Veterans and Military Families plan is here: https://martinomalley.com/policy/veterans/
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I don't care to change anyone's mind but I do encourage them to think for themselves beyond the advertising.