Hillary bashing on DU is becoming tiresome

[FlaGatorJD]

I come here to find out why our candidates are better than the Repukes,
not read post after post bashing Hillary.

I used to be leaning toward Bernie, and I am now leaning toward Hillary,
but I won't be encouraged to switch back based on all the attacks.

Can't Sanders supporters tell us what makes him great, without denigrating Hillary?

[Duckhunter935]

1. How about the same for the Hillary

supporters. Some people must be blind not to see those also.

[VanillaRhapsody]

7. Those are comments...

Where are all these OPs denigrating Sanders? Can dish it but cannot take it in return...

[That Guy 888]

41. The OP's denigrating Sanders? Maybe they don't stay on the home page very long.

It's seems that although we apparently should just stop the primaries and just give it to Hillary already, the majority of DU isn't comfortable with Hillary pretending to opposing the gop and the "vast right wing conspiracy" (apparently by agreeing agreeing to all preconditions set forth by someone like richard mellon scaiffe).

She'll get things done alright! Very pragmatic things. Things that apparently most of the people on DU aren't too sure should be done.

[VanillaRhapsody]

117. Hahahahaha

This is the problem with his followers.....denial

[That Guy 888]

138. I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor about things

That's the Spirit!

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. Always...

[roguevalley]

46. not everything you can find out about a candidate is 'nice'

i want the truth no matter what. Hillary is a problematic person and so it goes. If you want nice, the forum is there and so are other groups.

[upaloopa]

105. The truth? Don't look to Bernie folks for truth about Hillary. I have never seen so many people

making up shit about a person like Bernie folks do about Hillary. Good thing the primaries will be over next spring and we can get back to defeating the repubs.

[RobertEarl]

128. Problem is

There is no defense of Hillary. She is a warmonger, she is against (was) equal rights, she is big money candidate, she represents the rich and powerful and she will say anything to get your vote.

There is no defense of Hillary unless one is conservative.

[wyldwolf]

135. False equivalency

[Duckhunter935]

136. I know, we all know

we can not point out a certain persons positions and how she evolved to Bernie's. I just feel sorry for you all when she evolves back to her normal right of center positions in the general and any mention of banking reform and gun safety legislation go out the window.

[merrily]

2. So is the bashing of Bernie and his supporters. Moreover, most of the criticism of Hillary is based

on her actual record, comparing it with that of Sanders. If that denigrates her, then it's the fault of her record. You have two frontrunners. You compare them and their records. It's what you do. It's perfectly legitimate political discourse. What do polls do, beside compare? Hillary's supporters don't seem to have a problem with those. Besides, if her record is so great, Hillary supporters should welcome comparison. That they've been trying since May to pretend something is wrong with comparing the records of two candidates seems telling to me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. In comments following Clinton bashing OPs yes

As response to the Hillary bashing OPs
Where are all of these Sanders bashing OPs?

You want to dish it out....but can't take it in return...

[JDPriestly]

52. Could you please link to some OPs that you characterize as bashing Hillary?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Scuba]

96. You know, the ones with her speeches embedded.

[FarPoint]

87. Let's make up an acknowledge that bashing Democratic Candidates only creates chaos within our Party.

The bashing behavior is like nasty sibling rivalry on a bad day. Such chatter here on a Democratic Discussion Board has a negative impact on the Democratic Party grassroots effort as a whole.

Who gains from such infighting?

[freedom fighter jh]

93. +1

[madokie]

163. +2

Personally I don't trust Hillary to be honest with us. Most people I talk to in real life say the same thing.

read my sig line for where I stand

[leftofcool]

3. Welcome to Team Hillary

Ignore the bashing. Most of it is flame bait and not really worth your time to respond. You will find 20 year old articles dredged up to try and bash Hillary, anonymous anti-Hillary writings from Reddit, anti-Hillary pieces from right wing sources and blogs but the best ones are the ones they scour the internet for that pertain to Bill Clinton because we all know that the little lady is just an extension of her husband and has no mind of her own. You will really love those. Join us over in the Hillary forum.

[Divernan]

54. 20 yr. old articles full of undisputed FACTS?History's not bashing.

She's running based on all her years of experience, right? Not just on the fact that she's a woman? Ya know, that famous "Y'all are getting two for the price of one" Clinton co-presidency?

Like all of the tons and tons of Clinton baggage and scandal stretching back to Arkansas won't be dredged up and endlessly featured in the general election? Which will be to the detriment of all the good Democrats running down-ticket.

[upaloopa]

108. Yep it's all Hillary's fault that you and repubs will dredge old bull shit scandals

[C Moon]

78. That sounds so corporate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. It would be more honest if you told your interlocutor what you really thought of her...

It would be more honest if you told your interlocutor what you really thought of her instead of disrespecting/insulting/patronizing her by innuendo. When we had a beef in the working class milieu from which I come that's how we did it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. OK, I'll talk about Bernie.

I can't cover all the things I like about him, but I can sure give you some.

He voted against the war in Iraq.

He doesn't like the TPP.

He was opposed to the Keystone XL Pipeline.

He wants to see voting rights expanded.

He is pro-choice.

He approves of gay marriage.

That'll do for a start.

[SunSeeker]

40. OK, I'll talk about Hillary

She thinks the war in Iraq was a mistake.

She doesn't like the TPP.

She is opposed to the Keystone XL Pipeline.

She wants to see voting rights expanded.

She is pro-choice.

She approves of gay marriage.

She wants to end special immunities for gun manufacturers.

She wants to implement profit sharing to increase all workers' wages.

That'll do for a start.

[JDPriestly]

55. She's a follower. On nearly every issue you mention with th eexception of

maybe pro-choice, she was against the stance that Bernie has held for many, many years before she changed her mind and decided it would be expedient to say she was for it.

She is a follower.

And by the way, what "special immunity for gun manufacturers" does she want to change.

Gun manufacturers like all manufacturers of products are only liable for their products if someone is harmed by a defect in the product or the manufacturer intentionally or negligently causes someone harm.

That's my understanding. Among other purposes, guns are intended to kill. The manufacturer is not liable if a gun kills. That sounds horrible, but it is consistent with products liability law.

If someone uses a butcher knife to kill someone, the manufacturer of the knife is not liable for that death or murder.

If someone kills a pedestrian with a car, the manufacturer of the car is only liable if there was something wrong with the car.

Is Hillary going to single out gun manufacturers and change products liability law to impose liability on them for things they don't do.

If a gun manufacturer intentionally or negligently sells a gun to someone who is, by law, not supposed to have the gun, and that someone hurts another person, then maybe there could be liability. But that's about it.

[SunSeeker]

57. Hillary wants to repeal the PLCAA immunities for gun manufacturers that Bernie voted for.

No other consumer product manufacturer has such immunities.

[JDPriestly]

60. Are you a lawyer specializing in products liability?

Do you have a link to an article comparing the liability of gun manufacturers with the liability of other manufacturers, say from pharmaceutical manufacturers?

Cause I would like to know whether I am dealing with an expert in this area.

[Blue_In_AK]

63. Your explanation of product liability law is consistent with what I understand,

after 25 years of working for both insurance defense lawyers and plaintiff lawyers. If there is a manufacturing defect and someone is injured or killed, then the manufacturer is liable. If not, no.

[JDPriestly]

65. Thanks.

[SunSeeker]

74. Did you read the PLCAA counsel? nt

[Blue_In_AK]

82. My battery is about to die,

but I did look that law up on Wikipedia. It states exactly what I said, that gun manufacturers shouldn't be held to any different standard than any other product manufacturer. The manufacturer should only be liable if a defect in the weapon itself caused death or injury or if the manufacturer knew the weapon was going to be used in the commission of a crime. I guess I'm missing your point.

[SunSeeker]

91. No other consumer product manufacturer is given this statutory immunity.

I suggest you actually read the PLCAA. The true evil of the PLCAA is buried deep within the Definitions section. It states an action can be brought for:
...
(v) an action for death, physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended or in a reasonably foreseeable manner, except that where the discharge of the product was caused by a volitional act that constituted a criminal offense, then such act shall be considered the sole proximate cause of any resulting death, personal injuries or property damage;
...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/7903 (I added bold for emphasis)

So, no matter how dangerously designed a gun is, say an AR-15 with a 100 round magazine like the Aurora shooter used, or how careless the marketing, like selling 5,000 bullets sight unseen over the internet to the Aurora shooter, the manufacturer cannot be held even 1% at fault because the PLCAA declares any volitional shooter the "sole" cause of the injury. Oh, and to add insult to injury, if the victim has the temerity to try to sue the manufacturer, they will get hit with a bill for the manufacturer's overpriced corporate lawyers, like how the Aurora victim's family was ordered to pay over $200,000 in gun manufacturer attorneys fees.

Here’s a really good OP analogizing what it would be like if a car manufacturer has similar immunity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12629325

[Duckhunter935]

111. Why not post the six exceptions to the PCLAA

That blows a big hole in your argument. And just FYI, a retailer was just sued and lost so they are not not immune from lawsuits.

[SunSeeker]

118. I did. That "v" was for exception 5, but as you see, there's a big "except" to the "exception."

What are you talking about?

[Duckhunter935]

119. The people that sued in Colorado

We're part of the Brady group, were told they would not win and sued anyway. They lost under Colorado law and as part of that law, loser pays the court costs. The Brady group should pay but the family is doing it for the sympathy. Now in Indiana, a good case was brought against the dealer that sold guns illegally and they lost even under the PLCAA. You would lose if you sued the Ford company if someone used a car in a criminal manor to kill people.

[SunSeeker]

122. The "Brady group" were not named plaintiffs, just the Aurora victim's family.

And no, even if the car was driven in a criminal manner, the case would still go to the jury to determine what percentage of fault for the injuries should be attributable to the negligent design of the car.

What is the cite of that Indiana case you're talking about? Did it involve a claim for injuries from a shooting that resulted from that illegal sale?

[Duckhunter935]

124. The ones that sued

Were members of the Brady group and that group provided the legal team. You would have to prove negligence by the manufacturer to sue, and if there is none, the lawsuit would be dismissed and the loser would very well pay, just like under Colorado law.

[SunSeeker]

137. Google the complaint, just the victim's family were the named plaintiffs.

Now what was that Indiana case you were talking about? Got a name or a cite?

[Duckhunter935]

144. Brady Center Sues Online Sellers of Ammunition and Equipment

BRADY CENTER TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE ARNOLD & PORTER LLP
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

September 16, 2014
Jennifer Fuson
202-370-8128
[e-mail]

Brady Center Sues Online Sellers of Ammunition and Equipment Used in Aurora Movie Theater Massacre

Others Were Negligent in Supplying James Holmes

Denver, Colo. – Websites that supplied Aurora movie theater shooter James Holmes with ammunition, body armor, tear gas and other equipment used in his assault were negligent, according to a lawsuit announced today by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence and Arnold & Porter LLP. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Sandy and Lonnie Phillips, whose daughter Jessica Ghawi was shot and killed in the Aurora movie theater shooting in 2012. The suit alleges that the websites negligently supplied Holmes with the arsenal he used to kill 12 people and wound at least 58 others.

The lawsuit names Lucky Gunner (BulkAmmo.com), which allegedly sold Holmes over 4,000 rounds of ammunition; The Sportman’s Guide, which allegedly sold Holmes a 100-round drum ammunition magazine and 700 rounds; BulletProofBodyArmorHQ.com, which allegedly sold Holmes multiple pieces of body armor; and BTP Arms, which allegedly sold him two canisters of tear gas, as defendants.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press-room/brady-center-sues-online-sellers-of-ammunition-and-equipment-used-in-aurora-movie-theater

http://www.scribd.com/doc/260723111/Order-Dismissing-Lucky-Gunner-Lawsuit
Who were the lawyers that brought the suit for the actual or former Brady center employees?

Attorneys at Arnold and Porter and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence brought the lawsuit for us, pro bono. We knew the risks of bringing the case. We knew that Colorado and Congress have given special protection of the gun industry, and we knew that under Colorado law we could even be ordered to pay attorneys' fees because of those special protections.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lonnie-and-sandy-phillips/lucky-gunner-lawsuit_b_8197804.html

At 2;30 the parents admit the Brady center filed the lawsuit.
http://www.msnbc.com/newsnation/watch/aurora-shooting-victims-parents-face-fees-491899971529

My mistake it was Wisconsin

A Milwaukee jury on Tuesday handed a rare legal defeat to the gun industry, awarding $6 million to two police officers who were shot by a handgun acquired at a local gun store that they said was negligent in screening the buyer.

Milwaukee policemen Bryan Norberg and Graham Kunisch sued Badger Guns in 2010 in Milwaukee County court after they were shot by a suspect who obtained his weapon through a so-called straw purchase.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/wisconsin-jury-finds-gun-shop-owners-negligent-in-straw-purchase-of-weapon-used-to-shoot-cops/

Since the law's passage, there have been two cases taken to a jury trial for damages. In the first, a jury found in favor of a gun store in Alaska after a gun purchased by Jason Coday was used in a murder. The second resulted in a six million dollar verdict against Badger Guns after guns negligently sold there were used to shoot police officers.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

There are six exceptions to the blanket civil immunity provided by the PLCAA:

(1) an action brought against someone convicted of “knowingly transfer[ing] a firearm, knowing that such firearm will be used to commit a crime of violence” by someone directly harmed by such unlawful conduct;

(2) an action brought against a seller for negligent entrustment or negligence per se;

(3) an action in which a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product knowingly violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought;3

(4) an action for breach of contract or warranty in connection with the purchase of the product;

(5) an action for death, physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended or in a reasonably foreseeable manner, except that where the discharge of the product was caused by a volitional act that constituted a criminal offense, then such act shall be considered the sole proximate cause of any resulting death, personal injuries or property damage; or

(6) an action commenced by the Attorney General to enforce the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act.4

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-industry-immunity-policy-summary/

[beam me up scottie]

156. *crickets*

Well done!

[Duckhunter935]

159. You noticed that too, lol

When they are proven wrong, they generally run away.

[beam me up scottie]

166. That one also accused a woman of "mansplaining" facts to her.

Hilarious.

[Duckhunter935]

169. Yes indeed

[SunSeeker]

178. I didn't run away, nor did you prove me wrong.

You and BMUS may never leave your computers, but have a life.

I was enjoying a lovely Sunday with friends in Seal Beach. Believe it or not, arguing with gunners on DU is not on the top of my list of things to do on a sunny day when the beach beckons.

You did not prove me wrong, in fact you were wrong. Your Indiana case turned out to be a Wisconsin case that was not even a product liability case.

[SunSeeker]

174. Brady Center and Arnold & Porter were the family's lawyers, they were not the plaintiffs.

Of course the lawyers filed the lawsuit on behalf of the family. That is what lawyers do. But the lawyers were not parties to the lawsuit. The victim's family were the only named plaintiffs.

So do you have a name or case cite for that Indiana case, or were you making shit up?

[Duckhunter935]

175. Read post #144

it was Wisconsin

[SunSeeker]

176. That Wisconsin case was not a product liability suit. That was a straw purchaser suit.

One of the law’s exceptions is when a gun store knowingly violates a state or federal law by facilitating a buyer’s purchase of a weapon for someone who is not legally allowed to buy one, known as a straw purchase.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/wisconsin-jury-finds-gun-shop-owners-negligent-in-straw-purchase-of-weapon-used-to-shoot-cops/

[Duckhunter935]

177. that the controllers say is covered under the PLCAA

[SunSeeker]

179. I never said anything about straw purchasers. nt

[Duckhunter935]

181. Just that dealers and manufacturers had blanket immunity

Under the PLCAA. I have proven that to be false, posted the 6 exceptions and posted the successful lawsuit against a gun dealer was not protected by the law the controllers say that are. I love how you conveniently forget that big press release on the Brady group taking credit for the lawsuit they lost and the fact the parents knew they would lose and have to pay costs under Colorado law. Amazing the parts of my post you neglect to comment on, lol.

[SunSeeker]

182. I never said they had "blanket immunity."

You are creating straw men instead of actually addressing what I am saying.

What brought the gunner swarm down upon me in this thread is my statement, which you have not proven wrong, that no other consumer product manufacturer is given the unique statutory immunity provided by PLCAA:

...
(v) an action for death, physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended or in a reasonably foreseeable manner, except that where the discharge of the product was caused by a volitional act that constituted a criminal offense, then such act shall be considered the sole proximate cause of any resulting death, personal injuries or property damage;
...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/7903 (I added bold for emphasis)


Please cite another consumer product manufacturer that gets this immunity, i.e. that has a third party statutorily declared the sole proximate cause of injuries which the manufacturer's product may have caused at least in part.

[Duckhunter935]

183. how many other products were the subject of SLAPP suits designed

to put the manufacturers out of business? If it were not for those, the legal protection would not be required. This is the same protection required of abortion providers for the same issue, SLAPP suits designed to bankrupt defending frivolous lawsuits. So yes they did require protection, but as I have stated and you seem to gloss over, they can and are sued for legitimate reasons, including defective products, just like every other consumer product. In fact there are 6 exceptions to the law that the controller side seem to forget about.

How can a manufacturer of a legal product that is forbidden by federal law to be sold directly to the public but must be sold to a federally licensed dealer be held responsible for a criminal act committed by a third party?

[SunSeeker]

186. Cigarette manufacturers were hit with a lot of lawsuits, yet they never got immunity.

So the answer is no, there are no other consumer product manufacturers that have received this special immunity. You have not proven me wrong. You gloated too soon.

[Duckhunter935]

188. Cigarette manufacturers were found to have

Lied about the known hazards of that product. They rightfully were denied any protection for a product that was promoted as healthy and safe but was proven not to be. Big difference with a firearms manufacturer who's products work as designed and have tons of warnings.

[SunSeeker]

190. I see you want to change the subject now that I have proven you wrong.

You've wasted enough of my time. Bye.

[Duckhunter935]

193. Lol

Nice talking. Every point you posted was decimated by the actual facts. I am not surprised you are leaving. Bye

[beam me up scottie]

196. I love it when they declare victory and leave.

I've read that having an active fantasy life is healthy.

[SunSeeker]

197. What is "fantasy" about my statement that the PLCAA gives a unique immunity to gun manufacturers.

Name one consumer product manufacturer that has the same immunity. Duckhunter was unable to, yet claims he proved me wrong with "facts." I'm not the one living a fantasy life here.

[beam me up scottie]

198. You got pwned from the get go.

As you do every single time you pick this fight, I would have thought you'd have learned your lesson by now but nope!

You keep coming back for more.

It is fun to watch though, I do admit I enjoy it immensely.

[SunSeeker]

199. I knew you had nothing either. nt

[SunSeeker]

70. Are you? nt

[JDPriestly]

84. No. I'm retired.

[JDPriestly]

67. See Post # 63.

This

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/7901

stated the applicable law that was current at the time it was passed I think. It strikes me as superfluous, but it doesn't establish any immunity that I can see that doesn't apply to every other product. It just restates it. I could be wrong.

Do you have a link to a website that states that the "immunity" in that law is in any way out of the ordinary when it comes to manufacturers of products?

[SunSeeker]

92. See post #91.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=780570

[Duckhunter935]

110. One thing

Gun manufacturers are forbidden by federal law to sell to the public. They have no control who federal firearms license holders sell to.

[JDPriestly]

160. I was unaware of that. Thanks. Interesting.

[SunSeeker]

184. Except their product design and marketing encourage the unhinged to buy their product.

[JDPriestly]

185. Cigarette ads are barred from certain venues. But I don't know whether that would work with

guns. I picked up a freebie newspaper in a small town in Indiana, and it was all gun talk. I was utterly shocked. That is a cultural problem. It's very deep in our culture. But then, so was smoking cigarettes, and California's campaign against it has done a lot to decrease smoking in California.

Public education is key here in my opinion. New laws really won't change much.

[djean111]

5. You should lean in whatever direction you choose, based on issues.

Leaning because of anything else is, IMO, sort of bogus or low-information-voter-like.

[dragonfly301]

203. Absolutely agree with this

Research the issues - where do you stand. What issues are you passionate about? Don't let petty squabbles on the internet sway your vote - these posters are not going to implement policies affecting your life and the lives of your children. If the squabbles are getting to you - take a break. Your vote is all you have - are you really comfortable having it decided by who's supporters pissed you off on the internet?

[djean111]

204. I think it safe to assume that 99.9% of OPs like this are really just Hillary supporters trying,

unsuccessfully, into guilt-tripping Bernie's supporters into shutting up about Hillary's record and issues that we do not like. Which, of course, has been deemed (early on) as smearing and attacking.

[dragonfly301]

207. Agree

I've seen more than one OP on this topic in the last couple of days, almost as if they've rec'd marching orders.

[beam me up scottie]

6. That goes both ways.

Last edited Fri Dec 4, 2015, 04:37 AM - Edit history (2)

According to Hillary supporters on DU Bernie is Israel's #1 shill, a pro gunner that thinks women enjoy being raped, racist, gun nut, scheming little sneak, drooling, sweating old fool, scumbag, pandering phony braggart with some kind of emotional instability, tool for the NRA, Republican man with his head between women's legs, who protects the minutemen militia, pedophiles, racist cops, has rape fantasies, thinks that orgasms prevent cancer and is supported by Stormfront.

[Art_from_Ark]

8. I'm bookmarking this thread

just so I can have easy access to your list.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Feel free to use it when necessary.

Nothing Bernie supporters have posted can even come close to what's been said about Bernie here.

[Scuba]

98. Me too.

[m-lekktor]

14. yeah, both get bashed so when i see one of these threads where they only mention one

i think they are full of shit and always supported who they say they NOW support to begin with. BOTH CANDIDATES GET BASHED! i get tired of this dishonesty.

[beam me up scottie]

15. I wonder how many more of these ops we'll have to endure.

You mean Bernie supporters MADE me switch to Hillary!

[Art_from_Ark]

21. We're just a bunch of Blue Meanies, dontcha know?

[beam me up scottie]

23. LOL!

[JackInGreen]

32. Not me, I'm a GLOVE

[link:|

[Art_from_Ark]

47. So who is playing this character?

[riderinthestorm]

121. Its ridiculous to change your vote because anonymous internet posters are "mean"

Look, another "blue" meanie right here with DU's smilies!

[Maedhros]

56. They just make me laugh. [n/t]

[beam me up scottie]

59. They are amusing.

But also a little odd to those of us who base our vote on issues.

[Lancero]

29. Funny, we ask Hillary supporters to point out bashing and we get crickets...

Yet it's extremely easy to come up with a collection of Bernie bashing topics.

[beam me up scottie]

33. DU loved Bernie before he challenged Hillary.

Now according to the swarm he's a racist, misogynistic, immigrant-hating communist.

But they did the same thing to Obama so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the fragging.

And there are some good Hillary supporters, they're not all like that.

[Lancero]

35. Huh, funnily enough I think that's pretty much how Republicans tried painting him too.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Exactly, their posts are just like the ones you see at freerepublic and the cave.

Vile personal attacks that have nothing to do with the issues.

All hate and no substance.

[cosmicone]

131. Republicans hated Bernie until he challenged Hillary n/t

[beam me up scottie]

149. Well I'll have to take your word for what Republicans think.

[TheFarS1de]

206. Bern .

[pa28]

170. Thanks for keeping a running tally of the smears.

Point out facts about Hillary's record and suddenly you a desperate freeper guilty of vandalizing her image. But all the stuff you listed is fair discussion of "legitimate concerns" I guess.

[beam me up scottie]

173. You're welcome.

It's a shame I have to keep adding to it, the swift boating of Bernie never ends on DU.

Anything to avoid discussing the issues, I guess.

[tishaLA]

10. actually, bashing ALL non-repubs on DU has become tiresome

I have issues with all the candidates, just as I see benefits to all of them. The carping in thread upon thread about issues that have been rehashed ad infinitum is excruciating

[Agschmid]

11. Yup.

[handmade34]

99. extremely tiresome...

[Koinos]

102. I agree 100%.

It gets childish as well as tiresome.

[Duckhunter935]

109. Thanks, I so agree

[stevenleser]

139. Yep. It has been tiresome since December 2008 when panic over Obama's cabinet appointees became

a big thing with the same crowd that now supports Bernie.

They have never let up.

[Bluenorthwest]

155. Funny I remember December of 08 as the month dreading the Rick Warren Middle Finger Event

the Inauguration was turned into to please the bigotry thirsty 'faith community' of this country. It as December when Rick called all LGBT pedophiles or 'like incest' as he was being fitted for his formal attire.
You think that was unworthy of criticism.
Of course if the same was said about a minority you respect you'd froth at the mouth and fall over backwards, so don't even try to paint with that brush.

[stevenleser]

162. Nice try. Rick Warren was not a cabinet member or appointee and I wasn't referring to him.

You do this way too often.

And what I mean by "this" is, stretch things to try to attack people when they did not say the thing you accuse them of saying.

The last post you made to me was to accuse me of trying to speak for BLM. And I wasn't trying to do that then either.

[beerandjesus]

208. ....and THAT, my friends, was the first big disappointment of the Obama administration.

All things being equal, I would applaud an olive branch after a brutal campaign season. But that piece of shit? Nah. No fucking way.

[susanr516]

164. I hate the negativity from both sides n/t

[m-lekktor]

16. Claiming ONLY HILLARY is getting "bashed" is REALLY tiresome. nt

[bravenak]

17. It is boring.

Much funner to list the good things. I support Hillary, but I included O'Malley in my op as 'Not just any man'. He has alot of great qualities and deserves more recognition. And he has DONE things, not just talked or yelled about them. Raising the minimum wage. Lowering infant mortality while governor. Relationship with out community. Good on poverty issues, womens issues, monority issues, middle class issues, suburban issues, urban issues. He is a good value for our party.

[840high]

18. Deciding to vote for one or the other

based on supporters seems to me that you don't care about real issues.

[chillfactor]

34. I suggest Bernie "supporters" are changing the scope of the support of his supporters....

for the worse....many people get tired of all the Hillary trashing and YES we ARE aware of the issues.

[840high]

49. My comment stands. I get

tired of Hillary supporters bashing Bernie. That is not how I decide if a candidate is worthy of my vote.

[BlueMTexpat]

61. Amen. eom

[artislife]

71. Oh my!

Well, let me get the smelling salts.

[Scootaloo]

19. I'm gonna link you to something a poster said back in may...

So don't think this is the first time one group of Democrats has bad-mouthed
another Democratic candidate, or as I did once, believe that by not supporting
either the frontrunner, or the upstart, you're doing the job of the GOP.
A healthy and even contentious discussion of issues and the candidates will only make
her, or him, stronger. So please get passionate and support your candidate, and while a somewhat civil discussion is unlikely today, it would be nice if people would make
some attempt to be courteous, or at least show a little respect for alternative views.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026613629

Sorry dude. We've been having to put up with Sanders being called a rapist, being called a segregationist, being called a gun nut, being accused of protecting pedophiles, being accused of beign a "republican man w9ith his head between women's legs," you name it. We've been subject to stalking, harassment, and constant abuse from people who, not too long ago, were howling to kill Syrian in mass, or complaining about Ferguson protestors were blocking traffic, or having a laugh at protestors being gassed and beaten. Supporting sadners gets you called a white supremacist, a sexist, a communist, a "useful idiot for the koch brothers," etc. We have recently discovered that DU's terms of service do not apply if you support Clinton, to the point where linking to stormfront to try to attack Bernie Sanders is okay, so long as you have a ^H next to your name.

But now hey. Tell me about poor ol' sec. Clinton and how hard she has it because we call her on her record and votes and stated policies.

[beerandjesus]

22. +1

And a well-deserved

[Maedhros]

58. Nicely said. [n/t]

[cui bono]

64. +1,000,000

Well said.

The bullshit on this site is incredible.

[beerandjesus]

20. Is this the anti-Bernie play of the day, as contrived on hillaryclintonsupporters.com?

"I used to be leaning toward Bernie, till I saw how mean and sexist his supporters are!"


Guess the Iraq War wasn't such a big deal, right? It's all the Bernie people and how rude they are for noticing that Hillary didn't turn pro-gay till it became politically expedient!

[kelliekat44]

28. Yeah, even like so many people who have children who are gay. Eventually they change.

And what do you mean by "pro-gay?" Being for DOMA didn't necessarily mean a person was anti-gay. There seems to be little tolerance or understanding of the complexity of emotions on this subject for those who are trying to overcome a lifetime of indoctrination or socialization by society in general. I watched my aunt evolve on homosexuality when she learned that her only son was gay. It was painful for both. She never turned against him but she had great difficulty and depression overcoming rigid family values that frowned on homosexuality. She loves her son and their relationship is excellent BUT she still does not believe in same-sex marriage (religious indoctrination) but she tries to understand that other people do and she respects their feelings.

[eridani]

90. True. But the candiudate who got there first when it wasn't popular is an actua leader n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

157. It's hard for me to see that poster preach on LGBT issues after her diatribe in November...

"The openness and brazenness of the LBGT agenda and the media flaunting of gay marriages all across the country cost Dems dearly and threatens to do so in the future."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025764803#post45

[beerandjesus]

132. Appreciate the great and heartfelt comment.

And what you say is good for me to remember. Support for gay marriage has always seemed like a complete no-brainer to me, since the idea first crossed my mind as a teenager in the 1980s. It's important for me to remember that it's not so easy for everyone, especially people older than me--and that incremental steps should be applauded. The "pro-gay" jab was intended as snark at Hillary, since I'm now supposed to look on her as some kind of "leader" in the fight for LGBTs, because she finally came around a couple of years ago, after the majority of the country and even the sitting president--it was a lazy expression, but I do consider myself "pro-gay" in that I am grateful to the gay communities of our country and the world for the ways in which they enrich our culture and our lives.

Let me just add that you may have the best sig line I've seen here or on any other forum.

[jfern]

39. Yeah, these attacks on Bernie supporters are what's really tiring

[Betty Karlson]

66. That reaction should win the Internet. n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

150. "...of the day"? They've been at this since when?

Seattle? Perhaps before then, but Seattle seems to be what set them off. The "white tears sippers" got a taste of "useless white supremacist liberals" rejecting their utter bullshit. And pointing out Bernie's civil rights activism while in college also seemed to push many over the edge (hi @angryblacklady!).

I've been on the planet about half a century and know no one -- NO ONE -- so malleable as to allow online supporters to influence their vote. I'm not buying their claims, but they must think it sounds good coming out of their mouths...

[kelliekat44]

24. And nauseating. She gets more heat for Iraq than Bush, Cheney, or Rice. nt

[Jim Lane]

36. IOW, a candidate gets more heat for Iraq than do three noncandidates. That's proper, in my view.

Do you think it's nauseating that we don't have more threads criticizing Hitler or Stalin? They probably have about as many fans on DU as do Bush, Cheney, or Rice. The point is that nobody, during the primary/caucus season that begins early next year, will be called upon to make a decision about any of those five malefactors.

But if you think there are DUers who need to be educated about the Iraq-related and non-Iraq-related crimes of Bush, Cheney, or Rice, go for it.

[Armstead]

37. Her sales pitch is that she is so excellent on foreign policy....

and she totally blew it and actively supported one of the most idiotic foreign policy blunders and scheming power grabs in US history.

Bush and Company were duplicitous bastards, and were intent on going to war against Sadaam regardless of the pretext. Anyone with half a brain could see that.

And remember how long and dragged out that was? It was not some snap decision. There was endless debate.

She showed bad judgement when it mattered.

So it is a legitimate issue.

[eridani]

202. Bush Cheney and Rice got plenty of heat from DU when they were in office n/t

[cosmicone]

25. Welcome to the winning side n/t

[Yallow]

26. Maybe She Should Take Her Billion In Wall Street Cash And Go Home

If she doesn't like the fact that we think she will represent the oligarchs and not our families.

Super Pac Baby!!!

[leftofcool]

27. Why would a winner want to do that?

[chillfactor]

30. I agree completely...

I am so tired of Hillary bashing...I started out supporting Bernie but his "supporters" here changed my mind. These same supporters say well Hillary superstores bash Bernie......I beg to differ...the attacks on Hillary are viscous....and I am so very tired of it. Guess there is nothing great to use to support Bernie so they trash Hillary instead.

[Tarc]

31. I am a Clinton supporter all the way

but keep in mind that the handful of shrill Sanders supporters are not typical of the Sanders base in the country, nor even of the DU. The loudest bark is the one that gets the most attention, that's all this is.

[Armstead]

42. Is talking about things like who is backing a candidate, and....

whether they are in a position to be a change agent or will perpetuate the problems of status quo an "attack"?

OKay, Hillary is a wonderful person. Just not what we need as President.

[delrem]

43. is it wine whyne wyne uine or weyn?

I think hwaign yer back to Hillary, FlaGatorJD, where it's whreyne all righty right right.

[Jim Lane]

44. Political reality 101: The frontrunner draws more criticisms than do candidates who are trailing.

Right now, Clinton has a big lead in the polls. It's standard political wisdom for her to not attack her opponents all that much. It's also standard political wisdom for other candidates to attack the frontrunner.

As Exhibit A, I offer you what's possibly the most memorable political ad from the 2008 nomination fight: Hillary Clinton's infamous "3:00 a.m. phone call" attack on Barack Obama. It was, quite predictably, picked up by the Republicans and used against the Democratic nominee in the general election.

Was that Clinton ad an example of "Obama-bashing"?

If the race tightens -- if Clinton finds herself roughly even with or trailing one of her opponents -- I have EVERY confidence that she will trot out similar attacks.

BTW, neither Sanders nor O'Malley, in expressing their disagreements with Clinton, has come anywhere close to the level of negativity and personal attack that she exhibited in the 3:00 a.m. phone call ad.

[SunSeeker]

45. K & R

[ThePhilosopher04]

48. If she would act like a real progressive ...

then maybe the "bashing" would cease. She brings it on herself.

[840high]

50. ...+1

[Yallow]

72. Actions Speak Louder Than Words - Also Money Talks

Hillary isn't no progressive, and with all the Wall Street cash, I doubt she will get in the way of their gravy train.

This isn't Hillary bashing.

It is reality......

[Katashi_itto]

95. +1

[JDPriestly]

51. What makes Sanders great?

He is a leader.

He thinks for himself and does not consult polls that much.

He has a conscience. His stances on the issues are based on moral values and not on expediency or ambition.

His stances on the issues are wonderful. I agree with him on every issue. Here are some of his issues, listed in no particular order.l
1) breaking up the banks.
2) really negotiating before going to war, not just pretending to negotiate before going to war
3) taking care of veterans
4) funding higher education in state colleges for all qualified students by imposing a small tax on trades on Wall Street, and in other markets
5) single payer healthcare that makes sure everyone is covered
6) reforming our police and justice system to take racism out of the reality that so many members of minorities, especially people of color, have to deal with.
7) closing private prisons -- just shutting them down. All prisons and jails should be publicly managed
8) no to the TPP and other trade agreements that are hurting our job market, lowering labor standards, imposing arbitration courts on us and violating the principles of our democracy and even our Constitution
9) subsidized or free pre-school child-care for every child whose parents choose that alternative
10) making the wealthy, especially the 1%, pay their fair share of taxes
11) changing laws that make it possible for large, profitable corporations to pay no or very low taxes and hide money in tax avoidance havens
12) putting bankers in jail if they commit criminal fraud or violate other important laws
13) creating jobs repairing our infrastructure

Just a few of the great things about Bernie.

But most important are his good judgment which he has proven over and over again in his votes in Congress and his common sense.

Just a few of the great things about Bernie.

[LibDemAlways]

53. Your final question is interesting because I

asked basically the same thing in response to a lengthy post yesterday that was nothing but a snark filled bash of Bernie supporters. I responded that Hillary supporters ought to be focused on her positives instead of bashing those who support another candidate. And you know what? I was immediately attacked by several Hillary supporters for making a "threat." There was no threat, only a request that those who support Hillary expound on her positives. DU would be a much less toxic place if supporters of all candidates would simply stick to discussing the issues and leave the personal animosity out of it.

[cui bono]

62. Bullshit.

Bullshit that you allow anonymous posters on the internet's behavior change who you would choose to want to run this country when they are so different on policy.

And double bullshit that you think Hillary is being bashed when the fact is she is being legitimately criticized for her policy stances and political associations. Bernie and his supporters get smeared EVERY GODDAMN HOUR on here. SMEARED, not criticized.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6737025

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251506371

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=442891


There's just a few of the most extreme examples where posters are smearing Bernie. There's more where they call him sexist, scumbag... there's an OP in the Hillary group that calls Bernie supporters "unhinged".

So please go tell this bullshit to someone else. Nothing that you wrote can possibly be true unless you are a mindless person who can't think for themselves.

So fucking sick of these disingenuous OPs where people pretend to have been a Bernie supporter but his meanie supporters made you cry and go support Hillary.

Please. You guys really think people are stupid.

[JimDandy]

69. They aren't fooling anyone. n/t

[MisterP]

68. I'd say something about her record and ideology, but she went out of her way to back a shitty little

cartelista who puts machetes through the throats of Black people, and all that her backers (or "bawling cultists" in polisci talk) can bring up is "the problem with big crowds is that you can only hear yourself" to excuse her hilariously-tiny attendance

[Blue_In_AK]

73. I'm a Sanders supporter;

however, I try to make it a point not to criticize Hillary or her supporters on this board, even when I disagree vehemently. But I have to tell you that every single day I see certain people here taunting Sanders supporters to the point where sometimes I have to just walk away to keep from saying something I'll regret later. Of course, there are Sanders supporters who taunt back, but not nearly to the same vicious, hateful level. Just my opinion and perception, of course.

I want to clarify that this certainly isn't ALL Hillary supporters or ALL Sanders supporters. It's just that some people really seem to thrive on the conflict. And some people like to stir it up.

Finally, no one should be influenced one way or the other by a particular candidate's overzealous supporters. You can do your own research. If Sec. Clinton comports with your own personal belief system, vote for her. If she doesn't, vote for Sanders or O'Malley. Ultimately what people say here is irrelevant.

[Aerows]

75. Can't Hillary supporters tell us what makes her great, without denigrating Bernie? n/t

[RichVRichV]

89. Are you kidding?

They can't tell us what makes her great even when denigrating Bernie.

I've never seen a group on a political forum so unwilling to talk about any political positions of the person they support. All I've been able to get from them is that polls and endorsements make her great. I guess that's all she needs.

[stillwaiting]

107. Don't forget the money. She has access to LOTS and LOTS of money via SuperPACs.

The monied interests are throwing money at her hand over fist and not to Bernie.

So, this is a good thing for Hillary from a progressive/liberal point of view?

[C Moon]

76. ....

I would be soooooo love for DU remove that gif.
The "shrug" is used far too often as a bait-for-argument tool against other DU'rs.

[AgingAmerican]

77. Life is a two way street

nt

[MFM008]

79. vote for the nominee

or enjoy a President Trump and all that means with a gop congress.
Get it? Got it? Good.

[malokvale77]

80. Yah, kind of like Bernie bashing.

You are not fooling any one.

[Luminous Animal]

81. I love it!

[DFW]

83. Two part answer to your last question

"Can't Sanders supporters tell us what makes him great?"

Absolutely. Plenty do, in rational, plain terms.

".....without denigrating Hillary?"

Some can, sure. Some can't help themselves. Just gloss over any post containing "corporate" or "corporatist" and you'll cut out half of the denigrating right there, and get to posts that have legitimate issues with her.

Yes, there's more negative crap (generic, by the way, not limited to one side) on DU than is healthy, but it's the nature of the beast at the moment. I don't let it sway me one way or the other. What Bernie says for himself should have sole influence over whether or not you support him, and not a bunch of posts on here just because they contain "I-hate-Hillary" themes. Same goes for Hillary. It's what she says that should determine your support, not just in some solidarity because of attacks on here. If she appeals to you on her own, then stand by her. Some DU post whining "how could you possibly ever support Hillary" is NOT a good reason to stand in her corner any more than it is a good reason to support Bernie. Both candidates have much more to offer than that level of discourse, I promise you.

[JDPriestly]

85. I would like to add after just now listening to Rachel Maddow's interview of Bernie, what I

like so much about him is that he is genuinely excited about helping people. His enthusiasm for helping people makes him alive. You can tell that his love for America and Americans is genuine and the reason he is running for the presidency.

My first career was as a musician. I sang. I hear differently than other people.

Bernie's voice comes alive when he talks about helping the middle class. He has a positive energy that no previous president has had.

I think he is in this campaign for the long haul, that he will win and that he will be a great president who inspires the American people to greatness we have not known since Abraham Lincoln.

[betsuni]

86. About 47 out of 79 (so far) comments in this thread are negative.

It's not equal. Try as they will to gaslight, gratuitous Hillary-bashing far outnumbers posts by people who just want to discuss politics. Thank you to members who contribute informative posts on candidates and topics.

[eridani]

88. Criticizing policies and records is not "bashing"

I don't like bank deregulation
I don't like corporate "free" trade
I don't like the War on Some Drugs
I don't like private prisons

Sanders is against all that stuff, which makes him great. Clinton used to be for all that stuff until a couple of months, which makes me wonder what she really thinks.

[joshcryer]

94. Primaries exist for a reason.

[RBInMaine]

97. DU is simply not representative of the vast majority of Democrats. No worries. Hillary will WIN.

[left-of-center2012]

100. Clintonista complaining on DU is becoming tiresome

Just sayin'

[cantbeserious]

101. We Would If It Were Not For All The HRC Supporters Attacking Bernie And Supporters

eom

[jrthin]

103. Do not donate to site

As I intend to do when my donation period ends. This site is a horrible disappointment, as it once was my refuge in GWB years.

[99Forever]

104. So is this Hillary the Strong International Leader or Hillary the Poor Poor Defenseless Victim?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[99Forever]

106. In Camp Weathervane: Facts="Bashing"

"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell."

-Harry Truman

[Hepburn]

114. What is tiresome is the PERSONAL bashing.

I have FIVE people on ignore. I have been on the DU since April of 2004...and this is the FIRST TIME I have had to ignore anyone. I am so disappointed. Maybe I just expected too much or maybe I am finally old and cranky. Whatever...it makes me very sad. And FOUR of those I have put on ignore are long-time DUers for whom I usually have a great deal of respect.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top and just appalling to see.

JMHO

[Doctor_J]

115. there's another site where no one is allowed to say anything bad about Goldman Sachs candidate

Maybe that would be better for you

[Hepburn]

167. Someone points out the facts on her lies...

...and that's bashing?

[whatchamacallit]

116. "I used to be leaning toward Bernie"

Bwahahahahaha... Of course you were.

[Duckhunter935]

120. I know, right. Lol

[bigwillq]

123. Then leave.

Or ignore. Or hide threads. You have options. Stop complaining when you can control the situation.

[askew]

125. I think the tired excuses offered by Hillary supporters for her bad record

and crap campaign are tiresome.

But, I'd really just like to see more posts that compare candidates on the issues. But, if we did that, both Bernie and Hillary supporters would have to admit that O'Malley has the best record of accomplishing progressive policy and that would never happen.

[valerief]

126. So is all the Bernie bashing. I trash these threads. In fact, I'll trash this after I post this.

[Trajan]

127. Well, you just keep leaning ... This way and that

Like a wobbling top ...

Good bye

[daleanime]

129. So what questions are we allowed to ask Hillary?

[HassleCat]

130. Sure

He's a democratic socialist. He has very, very good positions on all the issues with the exception of gun control. He does not accept money from large financial corporations. He is a public servant, and does not have little "side bets" going on to make extra money. He represents a clear break from the Third Way strategy that made us the minority party over the last 30 years. The downside seems to be that he attracts supporters who think attacking his opponent will clear the way for him. There aren't very many of them, but they're very fervent, and they're all here on DU.

[Lil Missy]

133. It's beyond tiresome, it's desperate, and sometimes outright delusional. But remember, ....

you are dealing with people who insist Bernie is ahead, despite repeated and consistent evidence that HRC is in the lead by an overwhelming majority.

Hang around for Super Tuesday, if Sanders lasts that long. DU is going to explode on the Sanders team. And they won't be able to constantly attack the Democratic nominee.

[frylock]

134. I can't take someone who would change their vote because of a candidate's supporters seriously.

No sale.

[misterhighwasted]

140. No, they cannot promote him without tearing down HRC.

He is all talk, no action, no foreign policy, no nothing.
He has shouted his way to relevancy & diplomacy is not in his language.
Tearing down his opponant with broadbrush statements, while himself avoiding hard questions that ask "how" he plans on getting all those promises to pass the legislature, is not a leader. Its a politician.

Tearing down the opponant to promote himself is really all he has going for him.
He is quite adept at dodging questions he has no popular answer for.

Thanks
IMO

[cherokeeprogressive]

141. So you're another one who bases support on how you feel about supporters. Got it.

[SCantiGOP]

142. Amen!! N/T

[aikoaiko]

143. I'm sure all the Bernie bashing won't cause you any problems.

Vote your conscience.

[guillaumeb]

145. What you call "Hillary bashing" in some cases refers to specific

criticism of specific positions that HRC has taken.

Personally, I could do without the "my candidate is perfect" posts in favor of critical posts. Unless one prefers the GOP style of mock debate where nothing of substance is discussed and there is no past.

[madville]

146. Just wait until she wins the nomination

and moves back to the middle once she doesn't have to pretend to be similar to Bernie anymore.

Threads will be full of people swearing they will never vote for her or "I told you she wasn't really progressive on the issues!".

[Duckhunter935]

148. I know, right

[artislife]

147. I would suggest reading in the Hillary group

There is no dissent and only information on her issues.

Or so I am told.

[Chan790]

151. Hillary support on DU has also become tiresome.

She's a bad candidate and a bad Democrat. It's embarrassing to me that anybody supports her...she should be trending at 0% and dead-in-the-water. Christ...she's a worse Democrat than Jim Webb and Webb ran for the "disaffected Republican" vote.

[bowens43]

152. You miss the point, hillary is not morally or ethically fit to be president.

any of the other democratic candidates are preferable regardless of their experience or stance on the issues.

[Evergreen Emerald]

158. Bullshit bashing at its finest

Good job making conclusory statements with no facts.

[diane in sf]

153. Yes, and so is Bernie bashing.

[JoePhilly]

161. Let them rant.

Its what they do.

[paul ofnoclique]

165. Not to mention Dangerous

I'm a Sanders supporter, but if Clinton ends up with the nomination, I'd rather the Republicreepypasta opposing her have as little Democrat-supplied ad material as possible. Like Bernie said, Hillary at her worst is far better than any of those nutjobs at their best!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

168. pointing out policy issue problems is not bashing

[EndElectoral]

171. If you think this is bashing, wait for the General.If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen

Frankly, I think she's been treated quite lightly here. It's not a coronation, it's a primary.

[Warren DeMontague]

172. I know, it would be better if GDP could just be a lovely uniform homogeneity of threads

About what awful human beings Sanders supporters are.

[Thinkingabout]

180. I base my support on what I know about Clinton, far too many times the lies are

Debunked and they find their way right back in a few hours. I know we have visitors from RW sources, some sound like libertarian and I have seen a few green party also. I know Clinton has experience and has foreign experience, she has been an advocate for children, women, healthcare and education for many years.

[Autumn]

187. Can you tell me what makes Hillary great?

[SunSeeker]

189. She is a progressive woman who has the ability to beat the GOP in 2016. nt

[Autumn]

191. See post #15

[SunSeeker]

192. See reality. nt

[Autumn]

194. See post #12 for reality. nt

[SunSeeker]

195. LOL

[pinstikfartherin]

200. Are we on the same site? Obviously not.

There are a small number of very vocal supporters on both sides that regularly stir the pot and keep this place burning with a flame war. We can't talk issues because no one, on either side, flocks to those posts...they flock to the ones where they have to "fight" to get the last word on who is the piece of shit for the day.

Seriously, FlaGaterJD, if you want to talk policy, feel free to PM and we can have an adult discussion. Otherwise, you aren't going to get that around here.

[cantbeserious]

201. Bernie Bashing On DU Is Becoming Tiresome

eom

[betsuni]

205. I miss: "Ever More Loathsome Fear Mongering And Obfuscation."

That's my favorite.