2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Full Release of the TPP May Just End Clinton's Primary Candidacy
Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 03:53 PM - Edit history (1)
The title of this OP sounds hyperbolic, but given the full release of the TPP language, it's much worse than we imagined. And just how bad it is explains why Clinton has flip-flopped so hard on the TPP. In this post, I will challenge three things she's claimed:
1. That she reserved judgment until the deal was finalized
2. That she had hoped it would be the gold standard.
3. That she was hands-off, allowing the U.S. Trade Relations group handle the negotiation.
Introduction:
First, we'll establish that Clinton was Secretary of State from January 21 2009 until February 1 2013.
Next, we'll establish that the TPP was negotiated in a series of 19 formal rounds of negotiations beginning on March 15-19 2010 until August 23-30, 2013. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership_negotiations#cite_note-CAsummary-68 ) These were formal, multinational negations. Meetings continued after these, but were not official nor formal meetings, but rather meetings to finalize details for late-comers like Canada, Mexico and Japan.
This means Clinton was SoS for 15 of the 19 formal meetings to negotiate the TPP. What happened exactly in Clinton's last meeting? From https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/round-15-newzealand
Clinton Did Not Reserve Judgement (she simply reserved the right to reverse her position):
In other words, by Clinton's last meeting, the TPP was 29 chapters long (final version is 30 chapters) and only a handful of issues remained open. Clearly, Clinton was privy to most of the content of the TPP when she left office in Feb 2013. And let's review how she defended it more than 45 times during her tenure as SoS (from: http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/ )
January 31, 2013 (just before she left office)
See the article above for the other 44 times she publicly promoted TPP.
Did she reserve judgement until the deal was finalized? No, she flip-flopped before then, actually in the first week of October. She flipped hard. And that's because, as noted in the Politifact article, that she did it for political expediency. She knows that TPP is widely unpopular among liberals, especially by liberals, true liberals like Bernie Sanders.
Clinton Knew The Contents of The TPP
But before the flip-flop, she demonstrably knew the content of the trade deal.
What about her hopes that it would be the gold standard? Well, that's not really true. Politifact also shows that she was not truthful there either in a separate article, they show the difference between her gold-standard statements before when she supported the TPP and after she flip-flopped:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/13/hillary-clinton/what-hillary-clinton-really-said-about-tpp-and-gol/
After the flip-flop, during the debate: "I did say, when I was secretary of state, three years ago, that I hoped it would be the gold standard,"
Before the flip-flop, when she supported TPP:
"So it's fair to say that our economies are entwined, and we need to keep upping our game both bilaterally and with partners across the region through agreements like the Trans-Pacific Partnership or TPP. Australia is a critical partner. This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field. And when negotiated, this agreement will cover 40 percent of the world's total trade and build in strong protections for workers and the environment."
Politifact rules that Clinton's post-flip-flop statements are distorting what she actually said about the TPP.
And what about that last point? Clinton claimed she didn't work on TPP and that it was largely handled by the USTR. Well that's simply not true as shown by two different reports and state department communications:
From: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/hillary_clinton_says_she_did_not_work_on_the_trans-pacific_partnership_2015
The trouble, of course, is that Clintons declaration does not square with the facts.
CNN has reported that during her tenure as U.S. secretary of state, Clinton publicly promoted the pact 45 separate times. At a congressional hearing in 2011, Clinton told lawmakers that "with respect to the TPP, although the State Department does not have the lead on thisit is the United States Trade Representativewe work closely with the USTR." Additionally, secret State Department cables published by the website WikiLeaks show that her agencyincluding her top aideswere deeply involved in the diplomatic deliberations over the trade deal.
Clinton Directly Involved in Negotiations:
Specifically about those leaked cables: http://www.ibtimes.com/cables-show-hillary-clintons-state-department-deeply-involved-trans-pacific-2032948
There are many more examples in the above article that show how deeply Clinton's State Department was involved in the negotiations.
In case that's not enough, you can search Clinton's released emails yourself here: https://foia.state.gov/Search/Search.aspx
I'll refer you to the beginning of this OP, where I highlighted the word "pivot" in her Jan 2013 defense of the TPP. In an email from Jacob Sullivan at the State Department to Hillary regarding a Financial Times Editorial about the Re-engagement with Asia specifically w.r.t. the TPP, Sullivan and Clinton have the following exchange (note: the emails aren't linkable, you'll have to search them for TPP and pivot or you can use the case number F-2014-20439:
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:17 PM
To: 'CampbelIKM@state.gov'
Subject Re: Financial Times Editorial: Re-engage with Asia, but carefully
Perfect ballet metaphor--or is it football?
From: Campbell, Kurt M [nnailto:CampbelIKM@state.gov]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 03:14 PM
To: H; Sullivan, Jacob J <Sullivann@state.gov>
Subject: Fw: Financial Times Editorial: Re-engage with Asia, but carefully
Pivot plus balance!
From: Paradiso, Darragh T
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 08:50 AM
To: EAP-FO-Office-DL; EAP-EP-Office-DL; EAP-CM-Office-DL; EAP-ANP-Office-DL Cc: EAP-P-Office-DL
Subject: Financial Times Editorial: Re-engage with Asia, but carefully
There are many more emails between her and her staff regarding negotiations and publicity about the TPP.
Clinton Deserves Credit For Negotiating the TPP and Her Direct Involvement Made It What It Is
Clearly, Clinton was instrumental in the negotiation of the TPP. It should be no surprise. She's been involved in many trade agreements before. She certainly promoted and defended it even after she left office. Only this year has she started distancing herself from it and only once the final text was going to be released did she come out against it. Why? Because it's much worse than we could have expected. No one is going to like it. And she can't have that on her record as another failed policy, especially one as big as this, during a primary election. She simply won't be electable if she takes her due credit for it.
randys1
(16,286 posts)erronis
(15,335 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Which means Hillary is not credible. Not at all. She can not be trusted to speak the truth. Her campaign is all about her, and power, and her rich friends.
She should have no support on DU from this day forward and any support expressed should roundly have its butt kicked.
This is the final straw for me. I have supported Bernie and gave Hillary some leeway. No more leeway. Enough is Enough.
She is just out for power and money.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Imagine that the rich and powerful, like the Clintons, really cared for people. Imagine how much better off we'd all be. As it is the rich and powerful have screwed us over every which way.
And some of you sit there and tell us we should support the rich and powerful when we have a candidate that is not rich and powerful but only wants what is right for the people.
Shame on all of you. Shame, shame, shame.
No more leeway for any of you. That's it. This trade agreement that Hillary had a hand in is the final straw. And now, due to wanting our votes, says it's no good. You know what they call people who do that.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)By electing candidates that will fight for our best interests. It's short term thinking to support a front runner just because it looks likely they'll win the nomination. We should be supporting candidates that people can be proud of and who will do everything they can to make this country a better place. Hillary Clinton is not that candidate.
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I'm stealing it for the next time I get that lecture.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)herbchestnut speaks fact.
jhart3333
(332 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)If I could rate it, it would be five stars.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Further... Talk is just that. Review Obama's promises. A signed and witnessed declaration of intent should be a requirement before being allowed on a ballot. Shit - we're establishing a contract when we elect someone. There ought to be a document that the elected has to PROVE they're at least working to deliver on - even if there is demonstrable opposition from the congress. Hell - would we hire a contractor and agree to hand them a salary every month if the work they'd agreed to deliver, never came to pass? Or worse, there was never even any credible evidence of working towards that goal.
Look at Bill Clinton - hell - look at Obama. Yeah, I wanna elect our leaders in a game of Blind Man's Bluff.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)It works nothing at all like hiring a contractor and the fact that you would conflate the two is scary.
What happens if Sanders gets elected and either gets nothing done or has to compromise?
See if you hire a contractor they have to meet your expectations (within legal limits) and only your expectations. An elected official has many voices they have to answer to. It's really really silly to expect that to work the same.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)It reads nothing like at all like what you countered. You sure you haven't replied to the wrong post?
What happened is you counter-pointed something I tried hard not to say.
See, I said that our government contractor would have to DEMONSTRATE effort to achieve things - EVEN IF in the face of determined opposition. I don't think you understand the concept of contracts. They can be written with clauses in them that allow for variances from the main goal. Variances that might occur due to influences beyond the contractor's control.
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
See those six words: "to the best of my ability"? Those words absolve a president from being expected to perform miracles. So the best we (the people) can hope to do is contractually employ a person who appears to be willing to have our best interests in mind as they carry out their assigned project.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)The statement(s) you replied to are pathetic deflections. There are *real issues* here.
Thank you again!
Mr. Evil
(2,856 posts)Agony
(2,605 posts)screw all that other divisive crap.
Thanks for taking the time to articulate that so clearly.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)It would be kinda nice if the proud defenders of the status quo realized the status quo wasn't actually worth defending.
Aiming for the best is the only true way to success.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)ybbor
(1,555 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Exactly what HerbChestnut said. It needed to be said.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)It blinds the berniebros just like it blinds the republicans.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)one. The OP here is trying to find out some truth that is important in evaluating
whether Hillary is worthy of trust or not in the area of our national finance. Is she
pro-Corporation or pro-America's 99%?
The above is DEFINITELY NOT HILLARY-HATE.
If you use the words "Hillary-Hate" too loosely, it would only help to make the
words lose their meaning and effectiveness. It would be mere sloganeering.
You would be on the right track, if you can prove that the OP's information regarding
Hillary's role in helping to advance TPP is wrong or false. This action on your part
will be more objective and convincing. Can you prove that the OP is wrong?
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Dumping radioactive waste in poor people's backyards?
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Hope you include all the details/nuances, as the OP did. I have no problem in that case.
Perogie
(687 posts)Show proof or move on.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Perfectly put. Thank you!
Phlem
(6,323 posts)strong in the Hillary supporters yet they're convinced they're doing right by America with their short term vision, cause, you know the, the blinders.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Why does or did she support illicit wars that kill people?
Why does or did she support "Wall Street"?
Why does or did she bad trade policies?
Why does or did she support private prisons?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Her past will be impossible to defend.
Beacool
(30,253 posts)Agony
(2,605 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Criticism of policy is not hate. You want to see hate go to the Clinton Cave. They are the masters of hatred.
Perogie
(687 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)I know what is happening, even if others dont
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)in America.
wow
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)
against a very popular opponent.
Scouring the interwebs counting "Hillary hate" posts must be a tedious and thankless job,
especially since it has absolutely nothing to do with Bernie Sanders supporters pointing out
issue-differences on a range of subjects, from Wall St. to TPP, to Keystone, while also pointing
out when positions were taken (or not) and the nature of a candidate's donor base.
THIS ^ is not "Hillary hate", it's called primary political campaigning, on the issues.. nothing
more nothing less.
erronis
(15,335 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Truth fucking hurts.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)You still are:
1 - misusing the word "hate" and conflating it with the word "criticism"
2 - avoiding talking about the substance of the post by deflecting
I would bet that DU has more anti Bernie posts than any board in America. Can you check that wherever you got that info about Hillary? Thanks!
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)anti-liberal, progressive and Democratic Party actions.
Her past is finally catching up with her, she is not what this country needs.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)you will have to provide some documentation to support your claim,
or admit you are just making stuff up again.
randys1
(16,286 posts)That she is attacked here all day long is a matter of fact.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I don't go to the Right Wing Boards you've been hanging out at.
I DO know that in post 78 you made the claim that:
78. I dont know what you are talking about. More anti Hillary posts on DU than any board in America.
Yet, you provide NO statistics or references to back up your claim.
Any rational man will have to assume that you are just making stuff up, and posting it to DU
with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that your are posting FALSEHOODS.
If you are required to invent fantasies to help you support your choice,
then maybe you should check yourself and examine your choices.
Wouldn't it be nice to just tell the truth and not be forced to fabricate falsehoods to support your choices?
randys1
(16,286 posts)Bernie-2016
(27 posts)eom
840high
(17,196 posts)yodermon
(6,143 posts)spewed from the RIGHT, then you need a new hobby.
Did you miss the solidarity thread when she was being grilled by the Benghazi committee?
randys1
(16,286 posts)If you dont fall into that category, then fine.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)campaign, and he kept his word. During the first Democratic Primary Presidential debate, he
even helped Hillary, when the subject of her e-mails was brought up, in stead of taking
advantage of it. Very gentlemanly of him, indeed!
Then Hillary started attacking him personally. Well, is that her way of saying "Thanks!" to him?
It struck me that she was the type who believed in "Win at any Price," no holds barred. Not a
very pleasant character trait, in my opinion! It would have been foolish of him to continue
being a gentleman under these circumstances, wouldn't it?
Now Hillary supporters are complaining about Bernie supporters. Who started the negativity
first?
Bernie, as far as I can make out, continues to be a gentleman. Nowhere did he say he would not point out differences on issues.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)mistaken choice of words.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Besides, in this case, with regard to the TPP, she made her own bed, now she has to lie in it.
I read two provisions --- sections actually, of the TPP. The section on the special trade arbitration court is chilling. There is no appeal of a decision. There is no jury. "Experts" and judges (who can easily be bribed or chosen for their bias) will determine the facts and decide the applicable law to them.
These kangaroo courts are capable setting aside laws established by our democratically elected representatives and our regulators at all levels of government.
And here is what is SHOCKING TO ME.
The measure of justice these courts are to apply is WHETHER A LAW OR REGULATION WILL REDUCE THE PROFITS OF AN INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION OR COMPANY.
The measure of justice is strictly in money. Environmental damages will only be raised as a defense, but a case cannot be brought, say by the US against Australia alleging that Australia has damaged our environment.
Now I may be reading it wrong, but the primary value of the TPP court will be determining whether a corporation lost money because of some law our legislators or regulators pass and impose.
This court is intended to remove the risk that corporations take on when they agree or invest in environmentally damaging or other damaging operations in one of the member countries.
Hey! That is not capitalism. The risk the company decides to take, wise or unwise, should be that company's risk and should not be shifted via a trade agreement, the TPP, to the citizens, the taxpayers of the country in which the company decides to take the risk.
Capitalism is a way of spreading risk across investors. Corporations limit the risk to the capital invested in the corporation. That's enough. We do not need to nurse our corporations any more than that. They have limited liability. Enough is enough.
You and I do not have limited liability (unless we incorporate ourselves or put our assets in a very limited choice of vehicles).
The TPP is not needed. It is worse than even I imagined.
Life is not just about money. But that is the only value of the TPP court. No jury. We are guaranteed a jury trial under our Constitution.
Yet another step toward setting aside our Constitution and its human rights protections.
Feel the Bern!
randys1
(16,286 posts)There is no difference now between the two.
There never was, but I try and give benefit of the doubt
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)What do you like about it?
randys1
(16,286 posts)after you cant do that, apologize for implying it please
Paka
(2,760 posts)You are brave to read it directly. I get depressed too easily to slog my way through it. Reading selected snatches and wonderful recaps like yours are hard enough for me to swallow. We basically knew all along she was involved directly.
GO BERNIE!
riversedge
(70,306 posts)EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)There's more to it that that I hope.
randys1
(16,286 posts)EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)it's the truth.
Assuming that people that don't like Hillary don't like the Party is a nonsense.
I don't like Hillary particularly, and wish America had a truly liberal alternative to the Democratic Party, but until that day I'll continue to donate money, vote and help how I can to help the Party, considering the alternatives.
randys1
(16,286 posts)As an ACTUAL far left liberal democratic socialist, I would much rather have Bernie who is not far left enough for me.
But, the harm being done to Hillary by the right, in general and right here in River City, could result in the UNTHINKABLE.
it won't.
Because the right is sooooooo awful that the Dems could nominate a ham sandwich and win in 2015.
But even if that wasn't the case, the Party is NOT the presumptive nominee.
People in the Party SHOULD be fighting to push the strongest candidate that most represents the majority of members in the party... there SHOULD be friction, to make sure the candidate is the right person for the job...
Demonising people that don't support the presumptive nominee will do more damage than democrats being passionate about an alternative candidate. IMO.
randys1
(16,286 posts)I am a Bernie supporter who is banned from the Bernie group.
Who is followed and alerted on anytime I dare point out racism on DU, and there is plenty of it and much of it has been associated with supporters.
AGain, I am a big picture guy.
None of them are far left enough for me, including Bernie.
I want any of them vs the American Taliban and the nightmare they will visit upon us if we are not vigilant.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)As have been many folks on Kos, where I used to post until I was harassed into leaving by all the Hillary people... I am currently suspended from their for criticising Hillary's weak gun control "plans".
I am an expat, and have lived in Ireland and the UK for over a decade, and wouldn't move back. But I do still deeply care about America.
None of the shit that passes for liberal in America is considered anything but mainstream or centre-right in Europe... pretty sad.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)It would be nice if we could actually wrest control back from corporations and place it back with the people.
The GOP has been pushing us to the right for ages... all in the name of corporate profits.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Just like anything that has changed for the better in this country. It takes individuals willing to stand against it. Today we have people who say they are against things, but continue to do them.
Like an abolitionist slave owner they diligently work at increasing personal profits by exploiting the weak and then publicly condemn the institutions they themselves own and perpetuate.
erronis
(15,335 posts)If any uglican or perhaps even a 3rd way dem gets the nod from the Powers That Be.
While a lot of cheerleaders would say "Good riddance", the fact of the matter is that this exceptional country is going to lose the best and the brightest. The free-thinkers, the questioners, the ones that don't pay obeisance to some anointed thing.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)I can raise my kids outside of America... the standard of living for them is soooooo much higher!! Best of luck to you guys!
Cal33
(7,018 posts)form groups - at least, not in Switzerland. It's nice for kids to be able to grow up
without the fear of "not belonging" if one didn't join some group. They made
friends with other kids in the neighborhood, as well as in school. And that was
it. It's a more natural and healthier way to grow up, I think.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)I can't afford to move across the city, much less anywhere else in the world. I would love to move to Iceland.
I case anyone responds to this besides you, I have my very personal reasons to wish such a move and a lot has to do with racism.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)it was NOT easy and we do miss lots of things about America... well... maybe not a LOT, but we miss our friends... and the weather to a degree... and some of the food... and not watching baseball starting at midnight..
but my kids have never even heard about a single instance of gun violence... it's SOOO safe... no fear and a real community spirit...
there's some photos here if you're interested... they're not hugely illustrative unfortunately... :/
https://instagram.com/riottapeschris/
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)I have dual citizenship (Mam is from Wexford) and have ALWAYS planned on moving back to Ireland...especially after receiving news that I have a chronic illness (if I end up in a nursing home when I am a little older, I dont want to go into one here. And I have LOTS of family still living in the same village in Clare that my grandma grew up in...same village my family has lived in for about 400 years).
Having spent considerable time in Ireland in my formative years (every summer) Ive always had the feeling of being other than American anyway...but the nation it has become has become so dysfunctional and nightmarish that I no longer feel the guilt of my Mayflower forbearers (dads side) telling me to stay put.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)But remember that nowhere is perfect : )
But you'll love it.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Where ever you go, there you are, right?
And Im aware that my vision of my personal utopia is slightly tainted due to the fact that some of my happiest days ever were spent there (my parents were going through an incredibly contentious divorce and my mother usually lashed out at me physically when she couldnt get to my dad, so I was grateful to be out of the reach of her formidable right hook) but still in all...to be home again, with family around, looking at that wonderful Irish sky, and knowing I wont go broke paying for what promises to be increasingly expensive doctor bills is just about as close to perfect as I can imagine.
...and I great pub or two doesnt hurt
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)You'll love it. The stress levels are sooooo much lower than there.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)and spent nearly my entire adult life working in NYC (with a few years in Los Angeles) stress has been my constant companion. And a companion I cannot wait to be free of!
See you soon!
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)of that stress will take a couple of years, but listen, once it's gone you'll forget you ever had it... it leaves no permanent scars... instead you can dip into your America culture as you see fit and ignore it completely if you want... it's an amazing feeling...
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I'm quite positive your post is absurd.
Ham sandwich? There is that much disgust in you? Ill be glad when these types of "supporters" will shown the door after the Primaries.
DhhD
(4,695 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Those that are trolls and RW nutters here to undermine the party.
zalinda
(5,621 posts)In a bid to make prosecutors more accountable for their actions, Chief Judge Sol Wachtler has proposed that the state scrap the grand jury system of bringing criminal indictments.
Wachtler, who became the state's top judge earlier this month, said district attorneys now have so much influence on grand juries that "by and large" they could get them to "indict a ham sandwich."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/11/25/sol_wachtler_the_judge_who_coined_indict_a_ham_sandwich_was_himself_indicted.html
Z
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)WE are the party. WE constitute it... we decide how its going to go... we have the power to change the party, for better or worse. Granted, much of that power is abdicated, but when we choose to exercise our collective will, no political power can resist us.
Sorry that this is a bit soap-box-ish, but it's something I'm passionate about.
The GOP wants to establish two classes... one of serfdom, and one of aristocracy... sans any sense of noblesse oblige. A monarchy (The king/Queen IS the country) mirrors your idea that Hillary IS the party... even if she's the nominee, it's still not true.
We are democrats. We represent the closest thing to the egalitarian ideal. We want...nay, demand equality. To place one person as the penultimate gatekeeper to the party... THAT is unthinkable.
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)That is very dangerous thinking.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)have had so little experience living with democracy, and so much experience with
autocracy. Could that be why it's so easy to fall back to the ways of the old days?
The problem with democracy is that it requires a moral evolution beyond the habits of our simian brains. You have to concentrate, practice critical thinking skills, learn your history, and sustain a functioning public forum. TPTB recognised that by replacing education with training, and news with propaganda the default slide into authoritarianism would be welcomed, even encouraged, by the masses.
There are only two reasons for democrats to be underground these days. You are either a growing seed of reason in the face of this storm of ignorance, or the composting corpus of a good idea that sold its soul for a Brooks Brothers suit and a flag pin.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)The OP's author obviously spent a lot of thoughtful time putting this together. Perhaps you can illuminate us with specific points with which you disagree. Otherwise, you're really going to have to do better than, "The effort put in to destroy Hillary, imagine if that effort was redirected to support the party."
randys1
(16,286 posts)thread titles like
May Just End
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Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Yeah, I got none of those.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Sure, you don't, partner, sure you don't.
randys1
(16,286 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)I am not here to destroy a candidate, I am here to support all Democratic candidates.
Can you say the same?
Perogie
(687 posts)Just because someone has a "D" by their name doesn't make them a Democrat.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)people are puking up the bile that's been forced, and shoved down our throats since fucking day 1.
He'll take a clue for a thousand Alex.
840high
(17,196 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)May Just End
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What's next Bernie fans?
BENGHAZI!!?1!
I'm disgusted by this effort by people to try and destroy either candidate. They would both be a thousand times, no a millions times better than any republican candidate now. Personally, I don't think Bernie would approve of this type of tactic and we as Democrats are better than this. I won't buy into it, and neither should anyone else.
erronis
(15,335 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)Bernie AT ALL!
Talking out of both sides of your mouth. Typical.
He'll take Hypocrisy for a thousand Alex.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)
And it's pure fucking gold. And absolutely disgusting. Not only about Bernie, but a specific supporter as well.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251775426#post22
Hell how's about a keep a running list starting today. I should have an enormous pile by the end of the month.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)We have to clean our own house first. That's how life works. We are choosing OUR representative. We aren't allowed to vote in Republican primaries. You do know this right? Hillary is an intimate ally of the Bush Family. Asking us to turn our heads and hold our noses to this fact just shows how out of touch with reality you are. Won't happen.
randys1
(16,286 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)You're out of touch because of what you think. Do you recall when Hillary circulated a picture of Obama wearing a turban and tried to smear him as a Muslim??? That's your candidate. LMAO
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)to the nom not rigged for a corporate owned establishment hawk?
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Organizing it so that people who refuse to see the truth will need to at least admit that the truth exists is what takes effort.
Imagine if people who consider themselves progressives were actually open minded and held opinions based on reality, just how much better the world would be.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)mak3cats
(1,573 posts)Final action is expected by perhaps May, ensuring that Congresss debate will occur against the backdrop of a presidential campaign in which leading candidates of both parties already have gone on record against the accord.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)the OP said "Next, we'll establish that the TPP was negotiated in a series of 19 formal rounds of negotiations beginning on March 15-19 2010 until August 23-30, 2013. " Clinton was not at the finalization.
mak3cats
(1,573 posts)the NYT article refers to next year and if/when the TPP will become law. It does not support your statement.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)of TPP. I am sure you would like to see this end her candidacy but it is not going to happen.
mak3cats
(1,573 posts)and I gave what I thought was the answer you were looking for. You misrepresented my post, and I corrected you. End of story. So please keep your hostility to yourself, because I meant no offense. Thank you.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)It is not hostile, it is arriving at the truth.
riversedge
(70,306 posts)attempt to diss her. You are beyond the pale.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)After *years* of touting the TPP as the "gold standard of trade agreements". Political expediency much?
The fact that so many still trust says a lot about our party.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Thanks for taking the words right out of my mouth.
I'm just waiting for Hillary to come out with her completely unique idea to ban new oil and gas exploration on federal land...exactly as she did with her "support" to investigate Exxon. I figure it'll come in the next few days.
Parroting Bernie and claiming it her own is her new campaign strategy.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Seriously? A few months ago is now "awhile" ago?
Bernie was talking about how bad this was like almost 2 years ago.
Hillary called the TPP "The Gold Standard"
Sorry, Hillary is in huge trouble.
Bernie was talking about TPP in 2013!
Perogie
(687 posts)Don't just blindly protect her without facts
DanTex
(20,709 posts)riversedge
(70,306 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)their response post-times give them away...
Romulox
(25,960 posts)A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)he supports the Democratic candidate that is the furthest to the right. Now the meme seems to be we must support the party by supporting the candidate that polls show losing to any of the leading Republican candidates. They don't even try to make sense.
randys1
(16,286 posts)supports Bernie.
But on DU and elsewhere, the target is Hillary, always
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Bernie is just channeling a lot of accumulated frustration and anger that many people have had watching the Democrats work hand-in-hand with the Corporate and Wall St. Oligarchs and Monopolists AND the GOP to rig the system and turn us ever farther to the right........ Or, to give them the benefit of the doubt surrendering prematurely and not standing up to them.
The Clintons epitomize that systemic alliance between the Centrist Democrat faction and the oligarchs.
The TPP also epitomizes that. By its very nature, and the secrecy and "take it or leave it" way it has been negotiated and presented also epitomizes that.
Nothing to do with "Hillary hate." Just a belief that it;s time for a change from that crowd having their wealthy thumbs on everything.
hellraiser69
(49 posts)Thank you! !
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)They'll leap to her defense regardless of the facts just to protect her image. It's the Clinton campaign in a nutshell.
randys1
(16,286 posts)No, cant prove it, but it is true.
Dont believe me?
Go look.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)That's the key difference between what's posted on this site about Hillary versus what's posted about Bernie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with posting "negative" threads about a candidate when it's based on the issues. That's what we *should* be discussing.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Enough about pesky issues laden with stubborn facts, facts that need to be deflected, obscured,
redirected, ignored, all the while blaming & shaming Bernistas for not genuflecting fast enough
for Her Inevitability.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)I think you are confused between the two.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)Meh, Nothing's going to end HRC's campaign.
Bernie was first at many things. I am anxious to hear his response when he's called to account for those firsts he never speaks of.
Did you know that the F-35 fires 3300 rounds pr minute?
Yup. That sure would wipe out a lot of innocents who have nothing to do with wanting a War.
I'm anxious to hear his first explaination.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)To get the latest republican talking points against Hillary from BS fans!
cui bono
(19,926 posts)At least the behavior is the same with both groups so it's hard to tell for sure.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Electric Mayhem
(14 posts)She shifted her position a week before the debates. It's called political expediency. It also tells me Clinton is not a leader, but a mere follower, following Bernie's stances on TPP.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)amirite? <<< just in case
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)execution of Enemies of the State without due process, corporate-written trade agreements, criminalization of investigative journalism, prosecution of whistle blowers, and Hillary Clinton.
Hardly "left" of center.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)He said so himself:
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)just to continue to get stronger.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)I'm never one to assume these things will turn out the way they should. Trump has proven most conventional political thinking to be wrong this election.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Over after that too.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
moobu2
(4,822 posts)It's starting to feel like I'm watching a puppy go round and round chasing his tail but without the cute factor.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)moobu2
(4,822 posts)BENGHAZI!!
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Just checking since you've responded twice already... DSB usually is the one who does that.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)So, for afterthoughts and additional comments, we should do what? Edit and append the original post?
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)
You can always tell when someone on the opposition at least concerned about your point if not in tacit agreement by how much and how forcefully they respond to it. So far the response has confirmed that.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)But the fact that you refute it so hard is telling.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Either you're a very sensitive soul, or your recent reply was intended for someone else. I made an observation, and asked a question. That's hardly a refutation by any stretch of the imagination.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)and rudeness.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)bull shit reply.
Now I guess you will make it over and over because said often enough it becomes true.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Of course, I fully expect Clintonistas to insist Hillary was "just doing her job" as SoS,
but that doesn't explain her duplicity about whether she worked on it or not.
Nor does it explain why it took her so long, to start distancing herself from TPP, if she
had 'secretly' realized it was so bad, while calling it a "Gold Standard".
And -- as horrible as we are seeing now that TPP is -- she could have resigned as
SoS and refused to peddle the Oligarchy's secret deal to undermine our national
sovereignty, decimate what's left of American democracy, along with it's middle class.
ejbr
(5,856 posts)However, I suspect that most who support her, and maybe even some who don't, will just shrug off her responsibility as "just doing her job". Colin Powell got a pass, more or less, on the Iraq War. We'll see, I guess.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)EOM
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)How are you doing?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)lol
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)despite our opposing views on who should be the nominee, I appreciate the dialogue with you (and every other DUer).
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)I likely won't be on much
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)It was an excellent read. In an actual political forum, there would have been the counter offer of an opposing viewpoint, with similar grounding in fact. To this point, no rebuttal is offered. The flock of chess playing pigeons leaves familiar droppings on the stage, but that...well, it's only value is in revealing the mindlessness of their party loyalty and putting the value of true debate in bold relief. The only actual rebuttal I found was the argument: the leader is the party. What the leader, does is by definition the will of the people and the democratic platform.
Last call for a legitimate defence of the TPP? That's the only line of defence open to defend HRC in this discussion thread. I for one, would like to hear it posited. The rest is just embarassing
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)That's quite a complement.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Debate. That should tell you something about her.
JEB
(4,748 posts)who cares what position Hillary is currently adopting.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)coupled with a "who cares" rejoinder ...
Care to elaborate why you seem to feel this is no big deal? or am
I misreading you?
JEB
(4,748 posts)as designed and in part we can thank Hillary for shoving it upon us. What is of most importance is whether it passes or not. Plenty of blame that politicians of both parties will be dodging if it passes.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)I am on the far coast with no funds or time to go, but I hope for a huge turnout. Though, protests that don't fit the corporate agenda are generally marginalized via the media.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Will Hillary be there? I highly doubt it.
JEB
(4,748 posts)I am done with Hillary, but I am hoping TPP can still be defeated.
demwing
(16,916 posts)So hell yes it matters. What are you thinking?
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 04:29 PM - Edit history (1)
This is easily set aside through application of the narrative of evolving.
And she can play the script of 'the good and loyal employee' who did things because the boss wanted it, not her.
If none of that works she can claim she mis-remembered. She's already established that precedent for that.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)work on Asian-Pacific area, diplomatically and start to build connections for more trade business.
Faux pas
(14,690 posts)alc
(1,151 posts)In real life, not the internet. I'd be shocked if 3 know what is and 2 care.
Clinton will have a good enough explanation that anyone who wants to vote for her based on other reasons will be happy. And anyone who doesn't want to vote for her based on other reasons will say the explanation is horrible or they don't trust what she's saying. I just don't see it having much affect on the primaries.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)It means nothing in the long run anyway, its a petty attempt, & one that will only play to those who have already chosen sides.
Its a campaign.
I'd rather hear a discussion as to the issue of how to stop further voter suppression, polling precinct closings, clever altering of Voter ID laws, electronic voter machines that do not register the correct vote, gerrymandering of districts.
Is this really what the forum will be tonight?
Who said what before the other said it but ..but..but.
Ugh. Isn't that the campaign m.o. of the GOP?
The voter issues will affect the outcome of the 2016 election.
Trust that the GOP has already quietly been working on giving themselves an advantage.
This is what I want to hear debated & given attention to.
Use the national stage for an urgent purpose, to correct the destruction of the GOP, before its too late & again gets passed on to the next election cycle.
I hear ya on your post.
Thanks
The average voter doesn't know what is it let alone care about it. This one is a big fail. It's not exciting which the same people always claims needed.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)defense for her work and positions on the TPP.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)If it was not so, then some Senators with D's after their name would have demanded a full investigation into Wellstone's murder. (Actually - a massacre, as when his plane went down, not only did his life end, but also the lives of his wife and daughter, and two staffers, and two pilots.)
But did anyone ask for an investigation? I mean, just 20 days earlier, the nation was told the US Senate was possibly under an attack by terrorists. So a Senator's plane goes down, and only hours later the Bush Admin states it could not be terrorist related.
Anyway both Parties have fed this nation's middle class to the One Percent's meat grinder. Sure, under a "D"'s Admin, the right to reproductive health for women is more or less ensured. As are the rights of the LGBT crowd. But other than those two social issues, the economic issues are just as stinky regardless of party denomination.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)madwivoter
(539 posts)Thanks for the thread!
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)He'll make some noise of course, but he's got his own demons. She'll ignore him and move on to a subject that people really give a shit about.
He hates when people ignore him. Especially women.
Bring it on guys!
IllinoisBrenel
(51 posts)I can't believe how some people are so blind when the truth is right in front of them! Hillary lied about her support of TPP! I want a woman in the White House (eventually), but I want an honest president more!
KoKo
(84,711 posts)by visiting, calling our Reps and supporting and working with organizations to defeat the TPP, knew that Hillary was in favor of it and as it is a signature piece for Obama Administration to get it passed it was Hillary's role as SOS to promote it and she did.
I'm amazed at those here claiming it's some Hillary Hit Piece, when many of them know how hard many of us DU'ers worked to post information, Videos and Organization contacts to inform fellow DU'er about the TPP starting years ago. "Progressive Media Resources Group" (here on DU) has pinned threads on activists efforts and many articles. We posted contacts for Congress Reps for DU'ers to phone when the Fast Track Vote was announced and gave the websites for information Talking Points when you called.
Its amazing that those who have replied think that lack of support for that dreadful "Unfair Trade Deal" equates somehow with Hillary Hate and that pointing out that she changed her view on TPP just days before the first Dem Campaign Debate shouldn't be relevant to Dem Voters as to her policy positions as she runs for President.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)STOP PICKING ON HER is not a legitimate defense.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Gold standard...what a load of crap.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)her eyeballs. It only makes her look even more untrustworthy (if that's possible) to claim otherwise.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)Laser102
(816 posts)Probably zero. You're either voting for her or against her.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)And if you think the answer to your questions is no one, then you are underestimating the voting population.
A TLDR response is typical of someone who knows it's true but has a hard time with accepting it.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)reading a couple hundred pages each in order to produce critiques of each chapter.
Thank God for that, because most of us haven't the time or ability to do careful reading of the legalese.
There are scores of groups opposing this treaty from many countries.
I'm pretty sure the faults of this treaty will get exposed reduced to a volume that is readable and accessible and pointedly focused on things which the groups are concerned about.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)She flip flops and is wishy-washy on every other position out there and her supporters will just play this off as her "evolving" on yet another issue.
Evolving and morphing to whatever the popular consensus is at the given moment isn't at all what a real leader should be doing. A real leader stands for what is right regardless of how popular or unpopular the position might be and works to gain support for what is right.
I know I'm getting further off the point here, but I honestly don't see why anyone could support her for the presidency. I really just don't understand what her supporters see in her.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)For one, I see he's morphed from a fantasy writer in his youth about some seriously disturbing rape /women writings of bernies, to a full fledged femnist today!
Problem with this "evolution" is that the disturbing rape fantasy writings were bernies actual thoughts put on paper.
While his sudden announcement of being such a femnist he's damn near a woman, are words of his campaign headquarters.
Stump speech material, one liners put out for the media grab & following the lagging of his campaign popularity against a female candidate who has lived the struggle to be equal in the good old boys club of DC & the world.
What was bernie doing about femnism in 1995 when Hillary boldly gave her iconic speech in Bejing, addressing the human rights of females young & old?
She was doing the work of exposing the horrific lack of women's rights as human rights on a global scale.
Now suddenly bernie's a femnist too & gives the "I've been a femnist my whole life", women'issue statement put out by his campaign?
Meanwhule tucked away in a box of old school writings are bernies own words & thoughts about females.
I am anxious for the day he has to give every woman in the world his answer on this.
Ya know what? He's going to say what all men who think like that say.
"I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that, I was just kidding around, i don't even think like that, really!
Don't be so sensitive"
Tough shit bernie. Those are your real thoughts & words. The words on your press release today are damage control written by someone else.
How damn he stand here & mock women's struggles by covering his disturbing truth with a press release.
Typical Good Old Boy condescending speak.
I know what he really said & will do all I can to make it known to every woman's group from now till the day his campaign self destructs. I'm betting by Feb 8th, he will be out of the 2016 race.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)One candidate wrote about some messed up rape fantasies in 1972 while another candidate voted for war and then took roughly 13 years to realize that it was wrong.
One candidate wrote and put messed up thoughts to paper while another candidate acted and enabled horror unfathomable my most people onto millions of people and then took 13 years to realize that it was wrong.
How many atrocities were enabled by an essay about rape fantasies and how many atrocities were enabled by voting for and supporting the war on Iraq?
One of these candidates is decidedly more evil than another.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)ANYBODY that votes for Hillary has moral scales that need to be recalibrated.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)..so sanctimoniously, for a YES Vote to the massive war funding bill that garnered Him an hefty F-35 MIC Contract for his home State.
Is That the candidate you are talking about??
Did you know that the F-35 fires 3300 rounds pr minute?
What did your candidate think they would do with all those F-35s they were building in his State?
Park them on the tarmac?
He had no problem voting for & welcoming that contract.
The one that built the F-35s, that fired the rounds, that killed the innocents.
Its taken 13 years and not a peep from that candidate as to his role in the War.
THAT candidate has War deaths to answer for &
He will be confronted about that "forgotten" mention, while he rips away at Hillary's vote for a resolution.
Thank you
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)As much as I disagree with that part of the funding bill he voted for, it still doesn't compare with Hillary's Iraq War Vote - not by a long shot. Like I said above, one candidate is markedly less evil than the other.
Voting for a war funding bill to ensure that the troops that have been foolishly sent into a stupid war have equipment is a little bit different than voting to allow the war to happen in the first place.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)..simply to help the troops.
Just don't ever mention that in that funding bill he also grabbed that F-35 MIC contract for his State.
Shhhh. We only talk about the kind hearted things he's done.
How can you sit there and ignore the hypocracy of his claims.
There's no way you can applaud his No vote while defending his Yes vote.
What do you think those F-35s were built for?
They were built to support the very war he voted against.
I'd believe his claim that he voted for the funding bill to aid the troops, cuz that sounds really great, until ya get to the F-35 contract he supported & welcomed home to VT.
His claims of being against the War just become one big hypocracy.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)I'm hardly willing to believe that.
Again, one candidate is markedly more evil than the other.
One is obviously a heartless warmonger and the other requires certain jumps in logic to get to that conclusion.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)kristopher
(29,798 posts)ymetca
(1,182 posts)was always to squeeze the "fat" Middle Class out of their jobs/retirements to try and tamp down the endless revolutions of the so-called Third World countries. That's the global pyramid scheme, which is the desert through which all politicians must wander.
Apparently this is all designed to produce, soon, the world's first trillionaire/Elon Musk-type person who will achieve escape velocity.
Don Henley sang it as "building the perfect beast". We, the hoi polloi, are mere "organs" in the "body politic", as it were.
Or, as Philip K. Dick, Gnostic that he was, surmised, "The Empire never ended."
Do not attempt to control your set...
Jack-o-Lantern
(970 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)
Give it up - that meme has been thoroughly destroyed.
Check with your handlers at Clinton campaign headquarters - they've moved on to "Bernie is a sexist."
Pay attention!
ON EDIT:
For completeness, I'll leave this here. Keep in mind, the basis of the "Sanders is a Gun Nut" lie is that he said that rural states like Vermont have different needs vis-a-vis gun control than do more populous states. Here is Hillary saying the exact same thing, so by Hillary Supporter Logic(tm) she is a gun nut as well:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/clintons-attacks-sanders-gun-record-fly-face-her-own-2008-campaign
Clinton: What I favor is what works in New York. You know, we have a set of rules in New York City, and we have a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So for the federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules that they're going to try to impose I think doesn't make sense.
Moderator: But Senator, you were for that when you ran for Senate in New York.
Clinton: I was for the New York rules; that's right. I was for the New York rules, because they have worked over time. And there isn't a lot of uproar in New York about changing them, because I go to upstate New York, where we have a lot of hunters and people who are collectors and people who are sport shooters. They have every reason to believe that their rights are being respected....You walk down the street with a police officer in Manhattan, he wants to be sure that there is some way of protecting him and protecting the people that are in his charge.
senz
(11,945 posts)Best stick to the facts, Jack-0-Lantern.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)When you said "She also used the collective 'we' in describing the work being done on the pact" - As Secretary of State, she is representing the entire department. I'm not saying she was not personally involved, I'm just saying that she would say "we" whether she was or not. She would not say "they" -- she represents the official state presence and positions in the negotioations whether she was personally involved in them or not.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)And I don't think it's overstated .
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)Time for UNIONS to endorse Bernie! Now that they know the truth and know exactly what Hillary supports. It's NOT them.
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)Hillary supported trade negotiations, unlike Bernie, who has never imagined a trade agreement he could support. Hillary waited until an actual agreement had been negotiated before taking a stand against it.
Both Hillary and Bernie now oppose TPP. Whining about how unfair it is that Hillary might actually listen to the voters in what is supposed to be a representative democracy seems like sour grapes to me.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Stop. You're Killing me with the nonsense!!!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)To try and show Hillary supports something she doesn't.
I can't imagine wasting so much time and effort.
senz
(11,945 posts)Thom Hartmann noted this yesterday. ThinkProgress used to be a good progressive website but has fallen into the Hillary camp and I no longer consider it an entirely reliable source of information b/c of self-censorship. He also mentioned that MSNBC, controlled by Comcast and G.E., doesn't discuss the TPP.
It is such an important issue for the people of our country and for the world!!
One of the problems with using Hillary's history on this subject is that the MSM won't touch it -- and so the American people don't know what it is, what it does, and how it will affect them. I suppose Hillary supporters will find this cheering -- but if they cared about this country and its citizens, they wouldn't.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)working for her campaign. Sorry I didn't catch the details but I did get the gist.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)That's a lot to consider, but I don't think they'll miss the low hanging fruit of Secretary Clinton misquoting herself. Assuming they do highlight it, they might use that so as to hang other arguments from it. Do we all remember NAFTA? That was before we all had social media, and even so the nation was in an uproar.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)This is just one thing that she will be called upon to explain and will not be able to talk her way out of.
The Republicans will have a hey-day.
The Supreme Court is at stake.
We need Bernie as our nominee. Hillary is too risky.
sorechasm
(631 posts)If you are a true Democrat, or have half a brain. It's too damning to the party. Let's all just hope and pray the Republicans don't get a hold of this information. OMG they might use it to prove that Hillary not only has some responsibility in the loss of American jobs since NAFTA, but that she wants to continue that losing streak with her negotiations of the TPP. Also, please don't notice that she never rejected the TPP, but threw up a smokescreen the week before the first debate to avoid being questioned about it. Shhh. Let's keep sweep this revealing information under the rug. No one will notice it. Will they?
Let's just focus upon the polls that shows Hillary winning the primary. Don't question the fact that the most well-known female leader on the planet, loses to Ben Carson, in those same polls: a soft-spoken generator of wild fables.
(I hope the sarcasm is obvious.)
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)I'm told that's all she needs to win the primary.
We'll see.
George II
(67,782 posts)Isn't that the sensible thing to do rather than to base an opinion on some unknown?
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)To answer your question, no. The sensible thing to do was to make the negotiation transparent. And she never reserved judgement. She pushed the TPP more than 45 times as she negotiated it.
Please, try harder not to expose your blind servitude to your candidate.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)The public announcement was merely that the deal had been finalized. The exact text that had been agreed upon hadn't yet been released when Clinton made her statement of opposition (a statement that was itself somewhat tepid and hedged, but let's put that aside for the moment).
In response to reporters' questions, the White House confirmed that the text had not been made public and had not been sent to anyone. In this post you can see a couple clips of Josh Earnest, the White House Press Secretary, addressing the point.
Furthermore, the agreement is thousands of pages long. I think she announced her opposition the day after it was finalized. Even if she got a copy from some unspecified but totally reliable source, did she pull an all-nighter reading it and discussing it with experts in the many different fields that are covered, and thus arrive at her conclusion?
It would also be interesting to hear her explain what was different between the draft that she praised as the "gold standard" and the final agreement. Did the Obama administration make huge errors in the negotiations after her departure?
I'm going with Occam's Razor here. She was for the TPP but then, facing a significant challenge from her left in her quest for the nomination, she flip-flopped on it.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Sorry, but I could listen to the 1%er for only a minute or so...she is no different than she has always been... corporation...corporation...corporation...
Great presentation, berni. Thank you for the work you put in to lay it all out.
antigop
(12,778 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)a creature of Wall Street. Personally I don' trust her to keep my social security and medicare out of the hands of her Wall street buddies. Too much triangulation, can't stand it.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)there are other web sites that contain all the information too. I read it one way or another very soon, but what I have learned has me very worried.
Bernblu
(441 posts)The fact that Clinton promoted the TPP as the "Gold Standard" of trade deals should eliminate her from consideration for the presidency.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)He needs to keep hammering this one.
Uncle Joe
(58,424 posts)Thanks for the thread, bernie_mccoy
eridani
(51,907 posts)--is the mass of phonebankers and doorbellers that Democrats absolutely MUST have next year in order to win.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--with help from Democrats. There went all the doorbellers and phonebankers from unions and environmental organizations.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)As far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't see this is either complicitous, "star-struck", or an imbecile. Perhaps the Venn diagrams even cross.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)phylny
(8,389 posts)nominee, whoever it is.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)She does nothing different than any other individual shareholder, just on a larger scale. What they finance, we all have to live with. Well, try to at least.
Some take issues about our environment, war, austerity and the future of our democracy seriously. For everyone else there is corporation who could use your assistance in continuing the creation of the future they dreamed of, it is our present.
TheFarseer
(9,326 posts)No one's even heard of TPP because of a virtual blackout in the media. Also she can just claim to be against it now right up until she signs it into law as president. Also too many people are stupid enough to believe that anything that's good for big business is automatically good for America. I think this country is like a junkie that hasn't hit rock bottom.
book_worm
(15,951 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I've spent a week in Florida having to listen to people tell me how refreshing they find Donald Trump. The electorate-at-large isn't performing this level of analysis.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)In other words no/wrong/fail.
Perogie
(687 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Perogie
(687 posts)Just trying to figure out what you are talking about. It wasn't clear. Also personal attacks are not appreciated on this site.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Demeter
(85,373 posts)Something has got to stop the great American Giveaway.
mak3cats
(1,573 posts)What I find interesting is that no one in the thread is refuting anything in the body of the OP. The only naysayers are simply accusing the poster of "bashing" and "hating." Sorry, but that is total bullshit. Valid criticism is valid criticism, and the lack of any refutations at all proves the validity of the OP.
(And I also went "offline" to see all posts, including any from those on my Ignore list. Same observation applies.)
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)Its funny seeing people defending her on this issue without having any real defense. Sorta reminds me of what I am seeing Ben Carsons supporters doing right now- dont use her own words against her.
Beacool
(30,253 posts)Joe Turner
(930 posts)That was a rain of hard facts about Hillary's long involvement in the promotion of TPP. You very effectively highlight how deceitful she is on this critical issue. If HRC is elected there is little doubt she will enact TPP...if Obama doesn't spare her the embarrassment by signing it first.