2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSexism does shape perceptions of Clinton. But try telling that to some Sanders supporters.
The notion that Hillary Clinton is a feminist choice because she is a qualified woman is a really very caricatured identity politics, Denvir says. He is not alone in this view. At Souciant, Ari Paul informs us that another Salon writer (and DoubleX veteran), Clinton-defender Amanda Marcotte, is the real sexist: Ms. Clintons sole defining feature is her genitalia in Ms. Marcottes world, and such cold reductionism is misogyny defined. For these men, attempts to advance female political representation appear to be illegitimate on their face. In a blog post about Clinton, Sanders, and sexism, left-wing writer Matt Bruenig mocks Emilys List, the PAC that backs pro-choice Democratic women, as an organization whose raison detre is not to support the best Democratic candidate for office, but the most female one. These examples are just from the past week or so.
In general, the Bernie Sanders campaign has been overwhelmingly positive for American politics. It has, however, unleashed a minor plague of progressive white men confidently explaining feminism to the rest of us. Some of them rail against identity politics, while others use the language of intersectionality, a great boon to white men who want to inveigh against white feminism without losing their left-wing street cred. Some just sound like surly conservatives complaining that affirmative action is racist. All are united in outrage that anyone could ever see a hint of sexism at work in the intense hatred that Hillary inspires among their ilk.
One neednt have sympathy for Clinton herself to notice this. The writer Kathy Geier, a Sanders supporter who is contributing to a forthcoming anti-Hillary anthology, tells me that the sanctimonious, lecturing, hectoring tone some of her ideological allies take when discussing Clinton and feminism is driving her nuts. Theyre trying to delegitimize any critique of sexist Hillary coverage, she says. Its really hard for me, because my politics are with that side, but this ancient left-wing misogyny has risen its ugly head.[/]
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/11/hillary_clinton_bernie_sanders_sexist_coverage_some_men_want_to_mansplain.html
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Published on Aug 9, 2015
Some criticisms of Clinton are sexist, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders tells Face the Nation host John Dickerson. I don't know that a man would be treated the same way that Hillary is.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)Haven't had a chance to read the responses yet, though. I've bookmarked for a more thorough reading.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)TIA
boston bean
(36,223 posts)PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)It is implying that the OP is saying that all women who support Hillary do so based on gender alone. I don't see it that way.
In my opinion, what that OP is trying to convey, is that we all should support candidates based on criteria that transcends gender. And for the very few who vote based on gender alone (both men and women)... they really ought to be rethinking their position.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)boston bean
(36,223 posts)persons trying to delegitimize Hillary's run based on gender.
It's a nasty ball of sexism that needs some unraveling.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)explaining sexism and feminism around this race. I'm glad the writer pointed this out. I'm sure that's going to ramp up as we go on.
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)She feels he is unelectable because of the socialism moniker. I don't totally disagree with her. He would have an uphill climb no matter what.
So then Clinton, it seems, becomes her fallback with a nice perk of breaking the glass ceiling. Which I can agree has great symbolic merit. Symbols matter.
She is exasperated with Bernie supporters that don't buy her survey of the situations yet last time she was exasperated by her feminist colleagues when she supported Obama against Hillary.
Classic in group out group bias.
We are all guilty of it here.
Overall the article is a good read, makes a lot of points, ignores a lot of other important points, and is a rationalization of a choice she has made emotionally, which is what we all do.
We make choices emotionally then try to rationilize them to avoid cognitive dissonance.
In group and out group bias then gets us working against each in nasty ways. Anyone ever sees groups of chimps fighting in a zoo? It's like looking into a mirror.
Hence, DU Primaries.
BooScout
(10,406 posts)This part struck home with me:
"A lot of women had a visceral reaction to Weavers words not because theyre trying to gin up outragethough there was some of thatbut because patronizing men have been minimizing their qualifications and offering them subsidiary positions for their entire lives."
Vattel
(9,289 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,373 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)mhatrw
(10,786 posts)It also shaped perceptions and criticism of Sarah Palin, for instance. But does that somehow make all "blithe and confident" male criticism of Sarah Palin inherently sexist?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but hey if you wish to make that the blanket excuse be my guest
imthevicar
(811 posts)Trust is the biggest problem with the Clintons!
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)If whining is the best response you have to legitimate criticism of a candidate from fellow Democrats, then it probably means your candidate's policies are antithetical to Democratic principles.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)McKim
(2,412 posts)There are sexist attacks on Hillary. Men are very frightened of having women in charge. I am a feminist woman. I am not voting for Hillary Clinton because her warlike votes and actions and speech are against my feminist values. If we are going to have a woman president, she needs to act according to womens' values. Women hate war, it ruins their lives and their families.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)really tough time relating to men who are testosterone laden. Still voting for Bernie. Maybe even against Hillary because of many policy driven reasons.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Many of us have defended her on them for just as long. That's what makes it so frustrating to see her claiming sexism against Sanders when its clearly unwarranted, and when he's been one of the people calling out the sexism against her too. To take something as serious as that and use it as a political smear should be totally beneath her. All she's doing is making it harder to call out real sexism in future.
zalinda
(5,621 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and not only from the right.
There's more than enough stuff in her background to justify voting against her--so it's not only offensive but really counterproductive for leftwing dudebros to mansplain feminism to Clinton supporters.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)None?
Really?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You know, stuff like her neocon foreign policy views, etc etc
frazzled
(18,402 posts)But what we all know (or should know) is that there has always been a strain of unacknowledged, unreflected upon sexism among a certain cadre of left-wing men, and they still seem not to get it. It was at its pinnacle in my era, the 60s, when the male dominated forces of SDS and other groups maintained control while relegating their "old ladies" to the macrobiotic cooking and sex play. Strong, intelligent women of the era resisted, and second-wave feminism was born.
It shouldn't be so difficult for men to understand that, for example, when you continually ascribe things that a male spouse did back in 1996 to the female candidate of 2015, that's sexist: it deprives her of any agency, or even the appearance of agency. She is merely an appendage of her husband. Are we ready to look into the career of Bernie's wife and tar him with whatever she may have done or said over the years? There would be absolute outrage, and deservedly so.
The saddest thing is that, even in the 21st century, we can't see the small and large ways in which women are put into boxes that are dismissive or disrespectful, aside from valid disagreements about positions and policies. And there's a kind of bullying that occurs when even any suggestion of such behavior, whether conscious or unconscious, is mentioned.
There is a very male-oriented vibe going among our male compatriots on the left. I see it in the language employed in posts every day. Language that only wants to convey physical strength or even violence. Somebody "crushed" somebody else, "decimated" an opponent, "slayed" someone. I hope they realize that the majority of the electorate, which is female, isn't always inspired by this belligerent language. I'm losing track here, but I just wanted to jot down some things that make me uncomfortable--most importantly, the fact that many here do not seem to have an understanding of what sexism constitutes, and that making fun of it as "whining" only exacerbates the problem. It's not an indictment of men (I am married to one of the most thoughtful, respectful males imaginable who has always championed the smart, capable women with whom he has worked, and count many among my closest friends as the same).
And I'm sorry--defending oneself against subtle sexism by saying you'd love to see Elizabeth Warren be president is sort of like a racist saying "I have a black friend." It just doesn't cut the mustard.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It was really awful to watch.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)She had no agency when she wrote a book praising welfare reform and "the dignity of work"?
It Takes a Village clearly demonstrated her support for welfare reform. She also made a lot of public statements supporting welfare reform in the 90s and 00s
Did she have no agency over her own words?
Like "We came, we saw, he died"?
Loudestlib
(980 posts)This is more dirty politics from a desperate candidate. I hope it backfires. My first choice for the next president was always Elizabeth Warren. I have a feeling that the Hillary camp worked hard to make sure that Warren wouldn't run precisely so that they could use these dirty tactics.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/11/hillary_clinton_keeps_smearing_bernie_sanders_as_a_sexist_now_she_is_reaching.html
peace13
(11,076 posts)Many of my close friends have concerns about Hillary and gender is not one of the. There are several women and several men that I would consider for President and Hillary is not one of them. If she is your candidate support her best by trying to educate voters, not demean them with untrue acquisitions. That is how to win the race.
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)Hillary: Making sure women get a bigger piece of the middle-class pie that her neoliberal, DLC, pro-Wall Street, pro-Pentagon, pro-TPP, Republican-lite economic policies are designed to shrink. - expatjouro
RandySF
(59,238 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)to the rest of us."
Yes, I can see the horror of a bunch guys who, awkwardly or not, want to be on your side.
They must be taught the error of their ways.
But this Sandernista won't trouble you any more. At least for today, see you tomorrow. Have a lovely day.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)When you lecture women, you are not "wanting to be on their side." You're badgering them in order to get them to be on your side.
They know the difference, women have brains too and sometimes notice stuff you don't, ya it's true.
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)that there are women and children dying in Libya and Honduras because Hillary is a woman, and the policies she adopted towards those countries as SOS are just fine?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)while objecting to sexist arguments made against Clinton and her supporters.
It's not an either/or situation.
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)I haven't heard much (any) sexist arguments against Clinton from Sanders supporters. I've heard a LOT of complaints from
Clinton supporters about sexist arguments from the BernieBros. shout much, do we?
Clinton policies and Clinton politics suck, not because she is a woman, but because she is a neocon.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)I didn't say we were Nice.
And how did "want to be on your side" become lecture.
You want health care....
I want you to have health care. And yes, that needs to include abortions.
You want to have equal pay...
I want you to have equal pay.
Etc..
You feel I put my foot in my mouth when talking to you....
I know you put your foot in your mouth when talking to me.
And yet we seen to have a problem.
Am I the only one confused?
Oh, well, nothing good will come of this no matter how much I would like some to. Have a great evening.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)As though it doesn't exist for her. It's now officially known as "The gender card". And it's not just BrenieBro or MRA types either--although my guess is that they are a large part of it--almost anyone who dislikes Hillary will deny or sidestep the issue.
It's a truly bizarre response.
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mhatrw
(10,786 posts)progressive Clinton supporters ever talk about.
How many "Let's examine the terrible problem of so many Sanders' terrible supporters being sexist, racist white males who favor Sanders' issue stances and trustworthiness too blithely and confidently" have appeared just on DU over the last 6 months?
It's as if this is the only major issue Clinton supporters feel our nation is facing.
"We simply must do something about the pestilent scourge of white progressive males who desperately want a living wage, single payer healthcare, and income equality for everyone! How dare they! They are ruining America!"
JustAnotherGen
(31,902 posts)U of M Dem
(154 posts)Because sexism exists, you need to pity your same-gendered buddy HRC and just vote for her already ya darned woman. Don't even consider that Sander's fella because he is not as strong on women's rights and because he just couldn't possibly understand what it is like to be marginalized. But HRC, she gets it... she is a strong voice on women's rights because she happens to be a woman and has been politically attacked by MEN for it! So get in line to vote for the first woman president of these United States!!!
Of course the OP is correct that sexism shapes more than one person's perception of HRC. HRC is a target as a woman on the national stage by conservatives and the media. I am certain that more than one Sander's supporter has had thoughts shaped through sexism regarding HRC, after all they are human beings in a patriarchal society. This OP laughably attempts to correlate Sander's supporters in general and sexism, yet there are sexists supporting every candidate in the race including supporting HRC.
I trust that HRC is being blatantly honest about her desire to advance women's rights, however when she capitalizes on this topic in the primary, posturing as the feminist champion because of her gender (and therefore the obvious candidate for women voters), when Sanders and O'Malley equally strong on the issue and policy positions, she is using that same sexism that her supporters denounce for her own political expediency and this is disingenuous at best.
Just because I know it will irk some out there, here is a white male progressive explaining in his own words what sexism is: Sexism: a form of prejudicial disdain or discrimination against a particular gender based on the individual's personal experience with gender and cultural values. And BTW, Feminism is not exclusive to females, so a white male explaining it is perfectly acceptable and quite encouraged on my part. The more feminist males out there that exist, the better we all will be.
I would love to see a woman as president in the United States, however this white progressive male Bernie supporter does in fact pity those whose criteria for voting is actually based on identity politics alone - people that actually do exist and actually do vote based on single issues.
It is the 3rd way / conservative-light values that turn me away from HRC.
On a side note, I would love to see a plague of progressive white men sweep the nation.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)any group of humans can affect that such things occur only 'in that other group'. I see Hillary supporters who are straight constantly lecture LGBT about our own history, our rights and our right to hold a point of view. This is basically the same as men telling women, or whites telling blacks how to go about things. All I can do is attempt not to do that myself. I'd never even think to suggest as you do that such human flaws belong to only some groups I am not part of.
It's very difficult to listen to cries of gender discrimination from the candidate that rushes in to defend DOMA, which was discrimination codified, against both women and men. She supported the Patriarchy on marriage, full tilt.
Once you defend the patriarchy against 'the gay' for a few years you sort of lose the right to whine about the patriarchy. Sorry. She sort of is the patriarchy when she rationalizes DOMA.
Her supporters don't seem to think of all of us, just of their very own. That really bothers me. And this routine of pointing at Sanders supporters is bogus. I could make a list of Hillary supporters who have said openly horrible things about LGBT over the years. One of them blamed us for the Nov 2014 election loss saying we flaunted our rights with brazenness. Another told us we have 'plenty of rights already' at the top of a serious diatribe. Another said 'gay marriage is to me unthinkable, because the Bible speaks negatively about homosexuals'.
Not only could I do this all day, I will gladly post long lists of links to really crappy posts from Hillary supporting bigots if you folks do not stop pretending you don't have any bigots. You folks harbor the worst of them on DU actually. Some Bernie supporters are among the worst but very frankly on LGBT issues the Hillary camp takes the nasty cake and eats it too.
The Bernie supporters who go all creepy get called out by finer Bernie supporters. The Hillary supporters who say those shitty things and stalk our threads are left without criticism from their own.
It is crappy to have a cohort full of bigots and then run around accusing the other cohort of being bigoted.
Both cohorts, both have shitty bigoted people. The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves.
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)So what? Does that make Clinton less bought by countless millions in corporate contributions? Does that make Clinton a more trustworthy leader? Does that make Clinton's record and issue stances superior to Sander's?
Sexism was also used against Sarah Palin. Does that make blithe and confident criticism of Sarah Palin inherently sexist?
eridani
(51,907 posts)Funny, I thought it was the same conservative whackjobs who've been doing it since 1992. (I just got another catalog from the idiots--I keep complaining and asking them to take me off their list, but no luck. They are also selling end of Obama's term celebration Tshirts. They have Grumpy cat shirts and other stuff that I might be interested in getting, but not from asshats like that.)
Compared to the Obama attacks, the attacks on Clinton are seriously disgusting, and that due to sexism. All of the "scandals" of the 90s were horseshit, and seriously tainted by sexism.
I value policies that are good for women, regardless of who advocates and implements them. War and failed states are not good for women. Income inequality hits women much harder than men. Welfare "reform" destroyed the lives of many, many women.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)her gender to garner vote as in her comment on Ellen. Don't vote for me because I'm am woman, BUT if you base your vote on merits one of my merits is that I am a woman and that is fine. But I must add calling her out on such statements is not sexist, it just the facts.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)out of all of Hillary's statements use this one to open the show??? Please let's be real.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251777754