A Pattern of Dishonesty?

[Vattel]

Clinton’s words during this campaign:

“There are some who say, ‘Well racism is a result of economic inequality.’ I don't believe that.”

“There are some who say that this (gun violence) is an urban problem. Sometimes what they mean by that is: it’s a black problem. But it’s not.”

“Some say we shouldn’t shout about it (gun violence), that I shouldn’t shout about it. Well, I think we have to keep talking.”

And in a variation on the theme:

“I’ve been told to stop, and I quote, ‘shouting about gun violence.’ Well, first of all, I'm not shouting. It's just when women talk some people think we're shouting.

Of course, Sanders has never said that racism is a result of economic inequality. Nor has he suggested that gun violence is limited to urban areas, or that it is a black problem. Moreover, he didn’t say that Clinton was shouting.

Even Clinton’s quote was inaccurate. In response to Clinton, Sanders said “All the shouting in the world is not going to do what I would hope all of us want, and that is keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have those guns and end this horrible violence.” Given that he has used a variation of that line when talking about the issue many times, and given that he used a variation of it in response to O’Malley at the same debate, anyone with an ounce of sense knows that he wasn’t suggesting that Clinton was shouting.

[BainsBane]

1. Come on

It is clear that is how Sanders sees the problems facing the country, and his supporters have argued the point many times here. There is nothing dishonest in Clinton's statement above.

I myself don't think your defense that Sanders repeats that line about shouting about guns all the time helps the situation. Sanders raises his voice often. He himself shouts a lot, yet he doesn't think gun violence is worth getting exercised about. That was my take away from that exchange at the debate, and I find it far more problematic than any concern the statement might have been directed toward Clinton or gendered in nature. His position on guns is not acceptable, period.

Additionally, that someone disagrees with you or sees an issue differently does not make them dishonest. You are not the absolute arbiter of truth.

[Vattel]

6. "He himself shouts a lot, yet he doesn't think gun violence is worth getting exercised about."

It's hard to know how to reply to that. Some interpretations are clearly and obviously mistaken. Yours is one.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. He doesn't yell alot?

[JonLeibowitz]

42. Why would he yell about

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. His reputation precedes him

[redstateblues]

60. BainsBane-please stop being rational and making sense

It doesn't really fit here on DU 2015

[SwampG8r]

2. Lies.are.all she has

[Electric Monk]

3. Jury results (1-6) I voted to Leave It

On Thu Nov 5, 2015, 02:29 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Lies.are.all she has
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=770439

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is an OTT smear of a leading Democratic candidate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Nov 5, 2015, 02:38 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry, it could easily be a case of a missing smiley.
Not hide worthy.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is borderline for me. So, I'll let it go for now.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is just an opinion
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There needs to be cutoff for this kind of speech used against Democratic Party candidates. It needs to be soon. Ill let it stand until we all stop speaking about Bernie Sanders that way, too. Its gone far enough and we aren't doing so hot in the first elections on Tuesday!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not OTT. Alerter should demonstrate SwampG8r is wrong, if they can, in the context of the OP, and I doubt they can or they would have instead of alerting.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It is over the top.

[SwampG8r]

25. I must have made the alert.stalker hit list over at

The hate site

[leveymg]

27. You're right. And you're right.

And there are still enough of us here who aren't part of the machine to allow us to still acknowledge that you're right. Hang in there.

[SwampG8r]

31. It's so ridiculous

I can't vote for her I can't hold my breath that long
If the time comes.I just will stop posting about politicians and return to posting about politics.
I will just go to gd and leave this place GDP to the echo chamber
The actions of her supporters here and in real life have made me re examine my commitment to the Democratic party. I likely won't work the precinct won't go door to door and won't drive the gotv van on election day. No phone banking no money. They have effectively removed over 40 years of low level volunteer work for.the party.
Saddest is when she loses.the ge all of us who warned what will happen if she is.nominated will be blamed.
To you directly I have seen your advocacy.for.O'Malley and I can say you are a credit to his campaign and if he is.nominated none of the above will apply.

[leveymg]

34. There are literally millions of us who arr going through this together.

DU is one of the last places we can express it openly. We have to hold this place at all costs.

[peacebird]

30. You are correct.

[NurseJackie]

4. That's the beauty of not calling-out someone by name! I love that she can do that so skillfully.

It will serve her very will during her presidency.

Of course, Sanders has never said that racism is a result of economic inequality. Nor has he suggested that gun violence is limited to urban areas, or that it is a black problem. Moreover, he didn’t say that Clinton was shouting.

She's able to paraphrase and "quote" the obvious sentiments and meaning of multiple critics (without needing to call them out, without having to quote dozens of politicians and pundits, and without being accused of taking someone out of context) and in doing so, she can then offer her response to those criticisms.

Whether it's a speech, a rally, or an interview, the smart candidate knows that she doesn't have time to pull out newspaper clippings and present multiple video and audio clips. She's not presenting courtroom evidence. These things don't need to include charts and graphs and footnotes.

"Some who say" is very effective. (This has been demonstrated repeatedly by the "MSM" that uses that technique against Hillary and Obama) So, lacking specifics, and considering the likelihood that others have expressed similar sentiments, why should anyone automatically assume that she's referring exclusively to Bernie?

Her response short, sweet, and to the point. She is able to state the gist of what others have been saying (or complaining about), and offer her response. Boom-bam-Done, and move on to the next question.

She's a smart one. I like her. The pattern that I see is being sharp and quick witted. I like supporting a candidate who's intelligent and who can think on her feet.

[Vattel]

5. Wow, dishonesty is now a virtue.

[NurseJackie]

8. All things considered, I understand why you'd try to characterize it that way.

I guess Bernie needs to step-up his game. A poorly-run lackluster no-traction campaign and a not-ready-for-prime-time candidate is no virtue either. Attacks like the one in the OP appear to have no affect on Hillary, and do nothing to benefit Bernie. Maybe it's time to try something new.

[Vattel]

11. Bernie's chances are slim. My posts focus on

showing that he has the better record and better character. Hillary's dishonesty in misrepresenting Bernie's views is part of arguing that he has better character than her. I hope more voters learn the sort of things I am trying to point out. How else can Bernie gain in popularity?

[NurseJackie]

18. .

"How else can Bernie gain in popularity?" I guess he'll have to play a better ground-game.

Hillary has been very effective in consolidating ALL of the views held by various people, and offering a campaign-worthy response. A single response to multiple critics on similar topics, and without having to call out any single critic by name. Nothing more, nothing less.

Splitting hairs in search of the ideal candidate who never ever spins the words of critics is a futile endeavor. However noble you personally view what you're trying to do, I'm afraid it comes off as looking a bit peevish and petty. Nothing personal, that's just how it looks.

[Vattel]

24. I guess I have never taken smearing lightly.

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. "... very effective in consolidating ALL of the views held by various people," Where I come from...

we call that "pandering".

[NurseJackie]

50. Call it whatever you want.

Doesn't make it true and doesn't change my mind.

[Bread and Circus]

39. Some people say Clinton supporters are too comfortable with prevarication.

[artislife]

17. That is how I read it .

And they say Sanders supporters believe HE is the chosen one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. Dishonesty, obfuscation, misdirection, ambiguity, you name it; Hillary's Ready! nt

[restorefreedom]

47. welcome to the bizarro world.

or perhaps 1984 is more fitting...

[arcane1]

55. Whatever It Takes(tm)

[jeff47]

7. Want me to remind you of this when Republicans use "some say" against Clinton?

Or should we actually think lying is not a virtue?

[NurseJackie]

9. :-)

Remind away. Do whatever floats your boat.

Actually, I think that the OP and others are smart enough to know the difference between lying and using non-threatening rhetorical shortcuts. She'd literally have to use the words "Bernie Sanders said, and I quote" in order for these nonsensical accusations to be valid.

This is just more poo-flinging in the hopes that something will stick. It's not working and the poo-flingers just end up with messy hands. Ick!

[JonLeibowitz]

44. Yes, we are smart enough to recognize lies. Your post certainly contains some. n/t

[Vattel]

49. It is hard for me to believe that you really believe what you are saying.

You claim that in order to misrepresent what Sanders said, Clinton would "literally have to use the words 'Bernie Sanders said, and I quote'." You do realize how ridiculous that claim is, don't you?

[NurseJackie]

53. In your mind, I'm sure it must seem that way.

All I can do is call them as I see them. I can't force someone to agree with me. But I can tell you that Hillary will be the nominee, and Bernie will not be.

[Vattel]

56. Well, I do think you are probably right that Hillary will be the nominee.

I hope not, though.

[peacebird]

32. Are you happy that your chosen camdidate is a weathervane, switchable to wherever the polls go?

Because seriously, she has no strongly held beliefs. She switches to whatever is popular, at least until its time to swing hard right again for the general....

No way I can trust Hillary.

[NurseJackie]

40. Follow your heart.

[Bread and Circus]

35. Rove and the Republicans are great at doublespeak as well. Ahh the Bush years...

Good Times...right?

[jfern]

46. She deserves her 60% not honest and trustworthy numbers

[NurseJackie]

51. She's still going to be the nominee.

Start preparing yourself.

[jfern]

52. No thanks, I'd don't like the idea of

losing the general election with a 3rd way hawk that no one trusts

[NurseJackie]

54. Life is full of disappointments.

Many Bernie followers will have to work on their coping skills.

[Fawke Em]

57. And many Hillary supporters will have to work on theirs when

she loses the general.

Many Bernie and movement supporters won't be so moved to vote for her. They won't stay home (well, maybe the Millennials will - they won't have the enthusiasm to go vote), but they will go Green or write-in a name or pick another independent candidate.

Meanwhile, on the Republican side, the rabid mouth-breathers will be crawling over broken glass at their chance to vote against her.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. As honest as she's been about DOMA....which is not very honest at all.

Of course her supporters on DU include some of this site's most notorious anti gay propagandists. So she's pandering to her base with that.

[Dem2]

12. Sorry, my eyes got heavy before finishing the last paragraph

Is this what passes for dialog this election cycle?

[Vattel]

14. Pointing out Clinton's dishonesty is irrelevant?

[Dem2]

16. Repetitus ad infinitum

It's boring. I don't come here to read about Democrats savaging each other, so I get sleepy and stop reading when I've been tricked into opening yet another attack ad against one of our candidates.

[Luminous Animal]

19. But you read it and took the time to comment anyway.

[Dem2]

21. I read it until my eyes got heavy and realized that it was just more of the same...

so I decided to let the author know that I'm tired of the same attack posts - they're boring and repetitive.

[Vattel]

22. But the pattern I have identified is evidence that Clinton has been dishonest.

I haven't seen a post that points out the pattern. So this thread is unique, timely, and decisive in showing that Clinton has been dishonest in characterizing Bernie's positions. (Lol, I am giving myself way too much credit, of course.)

[frylock]

13. Some people say...

[Vattel]

15. Maybe when Clinton finishes with politics, she can join the Fox News team and apply her techniques.

[artislife]

20. She and Steve can host their own show. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

26. But will that be the 2015 Steve

or the 2008 Steve?

The 2008 Steve would make for a very interesting format.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. And so could you....you are missing your calling!

[frylock]

33. Perhaps DU's resident guest commentator "journalist" could put in a good word.

[Bread and Circus]

36. haha I hadnt watched this while I wrote post 35

[Bread and Circus]

37. Some people say certain Clinton supporters here think dishonesty is a virtue

[frylock]

38. It must've been in reply to someone on my list.

Not seeing post #35.

[Fawke Em]

58. It says:

Rove and the Republicans are great at doublespeak as well. Ahh the Bush years...

Good Times...right?

[redstateblues]

59. TN will not vote for a Socialist

Hillary will beat Bernie by a large margin in TN so, according to this OP, the majority of our fellow Tennesseans like liars.

[WillyT]

23. K & R !!!

[jfern]

45. Bernie got interested in politics because of his father's family being killed in the Holocaust

He knows damn well that less economic inequality would not have prevented that. But Hillary and her supporters just can't help but lie about Bernie.

[Fearless]

61. It's the Fox News... "People say" argument... which they of course mean themselves.