Hillary is not a Democrat, she's a Moderate Republican like Obama and Bill

[AZ Progressive]

Bill and Hillary Clinton made space basically for Moderate Republicans to join the Democratic Party by being a key to the rise of the DLC. The DLC of course hijacked the Democratic Party that FDR built. Bill, Hillary, and Obama (who did say himself that he would be labeled as a Moderate Republican decades ago) are not in line with the party that FDR built, and that John F and Robert Kennedy were a part of.

Hillary is even a more modern Republican in foreign policy if you believe Robert Kagan, a notorious neoconservative.

On the other hand, Bernie Sanders is much more of a real mid-20th century Democrat, a Democratic party that FDR shaped and which led the greatest economic boom in history as well as civil rights and dramatic social reforms. Bernie Sanders is clearly in line with FDR, Kennedy, and LBJ and is thus the Real Democrat.

[AgingAmerican]

1. That explains her inability to take substantive positions on no brainer issues

[Cali_Democrat]

2. "Very liberal" voters in Iowa prefer Hillary over Bernie (48% to 30%)

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/11/cruz-rising-in-iowa-clinton-back-out-to-dominant-lead.html

[Armstead]

3. Then they're supporting a moderate Republican

And maybe the Democratic Party is now the moderate Republican Party.

[Cali_Democrat]

12. The vast majority of people who identify themselves as Republican despise Hillary and Obama

Why would the vast majority of Republicans despise Republicans?

[NCTraveler]

17. The redefining of every aspect of life.

The revolution is here and it's blowing your mind.

[Armstead]

19. Because personality and team allegiance trumps issues

They don't like the Clintons because the Clinton's have the blue jerseys on.

yeah pro-choice and a few otehr things, which the right wing don't like.

But most of their long term policies regarding wealth and power (and many social issues) were right in line with Republican thinking. "The era of big government is over." Deregulation of banking and most other industries. Privatization of Public Services. Beware the Deficit. End Welfare as We Know It.

[Cali_Democrat]

34. GOPers despise Obama because of issues

and they hated Obama tax hikes on the rich after the 2012 election.

They hated his support for gay marriage.

They hated his Iran nuclear deal.

They hated his support for gay marriage and they were especially pissed he lit the white house with rainbow colors after the supreme court decision.

They hated his executive action on immigration.

They hate the fact he continues to support planned parenthood.

they hated his support for Dodd Frank financial reform.

They hate his new EPA regulations limiting pollution.

They hated Obamacare.

The hated his executive action to hike the minimum wage for federal contractors.

The hate Hillary for pretty much the same reasons.

You sure their hate is not because of the issues?

[Armstead]

47. You have to seperate Republicans and issues

The key word in the OP is moderate Republican.

Rgere are a lot of shades of grey in these things.

The Mad Dog right (which admittedly is a majority of the GOP) hated Obama from the day he announced his candidacy because he's a Democrat. And some on the further end of the spectrum, because he's black. He could have supported free Christmas trees and they'd hate him for it.

There are also wingnut Republicans who hate their own party because of the bank bail out and otehr reasons.

But not all Republicans in the general populace are batshit crazy. There are Republicans who are conservative on economic policies, but not rigid, and also socially moderate or even liberal. They weren't so opposed to Obama, except perhaps on the level of feeling an obligation to their party.

There's a lot more overlap between the "centrist" Democrats and moderte Republicans that many Democrats care to admit.

[AgingAmerican]

108. Yet he gave them more than they dared ask for, and permanently so

For nothing in return. Yet they hate him anyway. Hillary promises to further that legacy.

[wendylaroux]

26. these people would be tea baggers,not republicans.

tea baggers hate republicans also.

[Cali_Democrat]

35. So the 48% of people who identify themselves as very liberal in Iowa and support Hillary

are actually tea baggers?

[wendylaroux]

39. whatever you say

[SCantiGOP]

52. Most delusional post in the last month

Don't some of these Sanders supporters realize how much harm they do to their cause with crap like this?

[wendylaroux]

54. really?

they do??

[SCantiGOP]

68. Yes, they do

A month ago I was an undecided voter in
the important early primary state of South Carolina. Bernie Sanders has long been my favorite member of Congress, but I am
a big fan of the Clintons and had concerns about Sanders ability to win the general
election.
The absurd, divisive attacks I have seen here on Hillary Clinton have made me really wonder about the mindset of his supporters. As of now, I expect to
vote for Clinton, along with about 80% of black voters and 60% of all voters in this state come February.
Reread the original post and you might see what I'm talking about.

[elehhhhna]

116. So, like most Hil voters it's not about the issues then?

[thucythucy]

121. I agree.

These posts are definitely a huge turn-off--and I support Bernie!

I used to recommend Democratic Underground to people as a place to go for reasoned discussion of important issues.

Not any more.

Best wishes, and whoever wins the nomination, we need to come together to keep the GOP out of the White House. That should be the top priority of any self-identified progressive, Democrat, or liberal, come 2016.

[ish of the hammer]

153. Nobody believes you EVER were considering Sanders

[thucythucy]

209. I believe him.

Why shouldn't I?

And who are you to tell us what everybody or nobody believes?

[ish of the hammer]

213. Do you believe Clinton when she says she's a progmoderate?

Hillary: Making sure women get a bigger piece of the middle-class pie that her neoliberal, DLC, pro-Wall Street, pro-Pentagon, pro-TPP, Republican-lite economic policies are designed to shrink. - expatjouro

[dflprincess]

172. Of course we don't know how they are defining "very liberal". nt

[George II]

165. No, and no. It's the Democratic Party and she has been a loyal Democrat for decades.

[AZ Progressive]

6. Bill and Hillary helped push politics to the right

To the point that what people call liberal now was considered centrist before.

[AgingAmerican]

97. She is to Bills right

She claims to be a 'moderate' whatever that is. I think it's Third Way® speak for 'halfpublican'.

[UglyGreed]

118. Voted to Hide that garbage

Mon Nov 2, 2015, 05:13 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hillary wasnt President
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=758854

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

calling another poster a sexist, a claim with no merit.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 2, 2015, 05:22 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Accusations of sexism should be based on evidence, otherwise it's gratuitous name-calling.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Stop with this crap already

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Maybe Vanilla should keep that kind of stuff to private email........

[ronnykmarshall]

154. I just love how the "jury" members jump and down when a post they don't like gets hidden.

The whole jury system is a joke.

[UglyGreed]

188. This was a personal attack

which against TOS. Many times I've been personal attacked, one time I alerted on one these types of posts to see if it stayed in view. Of course it did so I agree with you.

[George II]

164. Oops....another inconvenient truth - thanks!

[Thinkingabout]

4. And of course you are wrong, she is a hard core liberal. these RW talking points

Do not convince me otherwise. Currently she is in a primary with another Democrat and Independent Sanders.

[Phlem]

126. Oh my eyes!

I'm laughing so hard!

.

[Thinkingabout]

128. She will still represent the people of the US.

[Phlem]

135. But mostly Goldman Sachs first.

and all her other investors first.

[Thinkingabout]

144. No substance to RW talking points.

[Phlem]

146. I see your ridiculousness know no bounds.

[Phlem]

149. Hows about this substance?

Curious how your going to discredit this.


http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/third-way-panicking-over-bernie-sanders

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2015/09/worldwide-anti-corporatist-backlash-has-begun
In Britain, the result was Tony Blair’s “New” Labour; in America it was Bill Clinton’s “New” Democrats.

http://www.politico.com/story/2009/03/obama-i-am-a-new-democrat-019862

And your trying to me Hillary is going to be any different? Look at her donors.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/third-way-no-way

That was 5 minutes of research.

[Yurovsky]

186. You're wasting your time providing facts and substance...

most Hillary supporters either onboard with the corporatist takeover of America or think she's inevitable because the corporate media told them so. And you have a smattering of people who will vote solely on gender, which is understandable but I would be more open to that position if Hillary were a woman who made her own way in the world like Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris rather than someone who simply rode her husband's coat tails to positions of power and authority.

[Phlem]

192. At least this one went silent. The others

get super defensive when you start using facts. It's bizarre.

[Thinkingabout]

212. I spend my time on functional activity.

[senz]

194. She's not a "hard core liberal." She's an oligarch. And you support her.

You might as well admit it.

[Thinkingabout]

220. Oh, really you say she is an oligarch, interesting, ruling by a few, wow. Where do you get

she is ruling by a few? You may want to admit this is something some says and yet it is well known she is not and has not ruled by a few. Maybe there needs to be an new name.

Yes she is a hard core liberal, quiet a known fact, no she is not a hard left, I do not share all of the issues promoted by the far left.

[bvar22]

197. An Anti-LABOR, Free Trading, Deregulating, Wall Street loving "hard core Libral"?

I think not.
No such animal has ever been discovered,
and there is no evidence that they exist.

File this one with the "Big Foot Sightings".

[optimist.spencer]

202. why is Hillary a better option?

Just tell me. What makes her a hard core liberal?

[ish of the hammer]

214. Proud, Strong, progmoderate, last I heard!

[VanillaRhapsody]

5. Bullhockey!

Http://ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm

[ronnykmarshall]

158. But ... butt ...

what about those on line polls?

[senz]

195. That chart looks like those put out by Libertarians.

If you read the text, the underlying philosophy asserts that government is "restrictive." That's a core Libertarian concept. It goes against the pro-democratic philosophy of our nation's founders. I hope Ontheissues is not deliberately Libertarian; I hope they're merely naive.

We could argue up a storm on this, but it's deep and would require its own thread. I'm not up to starting threads yet.

Please do not PM me on this; I prefer that important discussions be kept out in the open.

[senz]

196. I asked you not to PM me but you PM'd me anyway.

Don't do it.

Do. Not. PM. Me.

Comprende?

[AZ Progressive]

7. It's to the point that Obamacare is considered liberal but was actually Mitt Romneys healthcare plan

Which itself was borrowed from the Heritage Foundation.

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. What point.....

Its the best we could do under the circumstances....

[VanillaRhapsody]

11. And when did HRC marry Barack Obama?

[JaneyVee]

18. "Mitt Romney's healthcare plan". The one Bernie voted yes on?

And the one Hillary didn't vote on?

[Armstead]

22. I'd suggest you read a little bit about Sanders position and role in the Obamacare debate

[JaneyVee]

23. How did he vote?

[Armstead]

30. I'd suggest you read....etc.

[Phlem]

127. Reading and research? WTF is that!

[dsc]

10. Please supply the list of elected federal GOP members

who support all of the following, the equality act, pro choice, increasing taxes on the rich, Obamacare, loan free college,

[ruffburr]

13. The-

Third Way is made up of Dino's, Republican Lite ( or is that just more Articulate)

[saturnsring]

14. neither is bernie

[randys1]

15. a. Nonsense b.

if you compare them to me, then yes, more right for sure

but I am an ACTUAL Democratic Socialist, unlike many here who claim to be

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. Unless you are opposed to all Capitalism

You are a Socialist Democrat......which accepts a balance between Capital and Labor....

[randys1]

61. Definitions are easy to manipulate, my point is simple.

I believe much of what is for profit now, should not be.

All energy should not be.

And for example, it is impossible to survive in this economy without access to the internet, so such should be controlled by the government at cost if any cost.

I believe the government should take over the cell phone companies for basically the same reason.

I believe the idea that an individual can own a piece of land, like Waikiki Beach or Yosemite (if teaparty takes over, Koch's will own both) and then prevent all humans from ever setting foot on it again, is absurd.

[VanillaRhapsody]

62. That is not my definition...its theirs...

Democratic socialism is usually distinguished from both the Soviet model of a centralized economy and social democracy.[2] A distinction is also made between democratic socialism and social democracy in that the former is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while the latter is not.[3] However, "democratic socialism" is sometimes improperly used as a synonym for social democracy, where "social democracy" usually refers to support for political democracy, regulation of the capitalist economy, and a welfare state.[4

[JaneyVee]

16. This is just getting sad now.

[NurseJackie]

25. Sad. But amusing in a way.

Considering the abominable behavior of so many, the teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing and hair-on-fire shrieking posts make the continuing good news and poll results even MORE enjoyable than they might have otherwise been.

[JaneyVee]

28. I'm genuinely starting to feel bad.

[NurseJackie]

20. So, Bernie is a relic from the 1950's?

Nice to know. That explains a lot.

[postatomic]

180. Bernie is the new Estes Kefauver

[Art_from_Ark]

191. Estes Kefauver was a great man

He was one of only 3 Southern Senators who voted against the racist Southern Manifesto in 1956.

[senz]

181. No, a "relic" from the pre-DLC, even pre-Reagan, days.

Bernie hearkens back to the pre-Reagan, post-FDR, true blue, what we used to call, "Democrat." Doesn't matter what he calls himself, it matters what he stands for and what he's trying to do.

There's also some Lincoln in Bernie ("government of, by, and for the people.&quot

Too bad Hillary doesn't come close to any of that. But you can change your mind any time you want, NJ.

[mythology]

21. This is just painful

No they aren't Republicans. No matter how much you want to believe it.

[doc03]

24. Try to convince todays Republicans with that bull shit n/t

[FloridaBlues]

27. Sounds like Fox News posting here all to often

About how bad the clintons are it gets pretty old

[still_one]

29. Bullshit

[leftofcool]

31. Brought to you by Fox News

[EdwardBernays]

32. Not quite

Hillary IS a Democrat, but Democrats are centre-right.

There's no left or liberal or progressive party in America.

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. Bullshit....

[EdwardBernays]

89. bullshit

I live in Ireland, if Hillary ran here she'd be seen as a conservative, same in the UK.

Is she for gun control? No.
Is she for single payer healthcare? No.
Free university education? No.

And didn't she sponsor a bill to criminalise flag burning at one point?

And on and on.

In America people think she's "liberal," but people also think Obama is a socialist... heck, people think Bernie Sanders is a socialist...

[Evergreen Emerald]

124. You are incorrect on her stances...but you know that don't you?

welcome to DU

[EdwardBernays]

184. I'm not

Is she for free University education for all?

No?

"Families still would be required to contribute, but students wouldn’t have to take out loans to attend public schools."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-proposes-debt-free-tuition-at-public-colleges-1439179200

Single Payer?

No

"The Democratic frontrunner supports continuing to build on the Affordable Care Act with legislation to reduce healthcare costs, while Sanders believes in replacing Obamacare with a single-payer system of the kind common in Canada and Western Europe."

http://time.com/4043242/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-health-care/

Gun control?

Here's her suggestions, which if suggested in Europe would be laughed out of the room as being hugely pro-gun:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/05/hillary-clinton-gun-control-proposals

A few more.

Paid leave:

"Hillary Clinton expanded on her call for paid leave on Thursday, proposing a mandatory seven days of paid sick leave and three months of paid family leave for new parents."

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/253303-clinton-sheds-light-on-paid-leave-plan

What a normal liberal country has:

Paid Holidays (Ireland):

"The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 provides for a basic annual paid leave entitlement of 4 weeks"

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

Paid Sick Leave (UK):

"Employees only need a fit note from a doctor after 7 days off work sick. If they are ill just before or during their holiday, they can take it as sick leave instead."

"Employees who are off work sick for more than 4 weeks may be considered long-term sick. A long-term sick employee is still entitled to annual leave.

As a last resort, employers can dismiss an employee who is long-term sick, but before they can do this employers must:

- consider if an employee can return to work - eg working flexibly or part-time, doing different or less stressful work (with training if necessary)

- consult with employees about when they could return to work and if their health will improve
An employee can take their case to an employment tribunal if they think they’ve been unfairly dismissed."

Paternal Leave (Sweden):

"Parents are entitled to 480 of paternal leave - including 60 for the Dad"

https://sweden.se/quickfact/parental-leave/

Oh and:

"The Flag Protection Act of 2005 was a proposed United States federal law introduced by Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Robert Bennett. The law would have outlawed flag burning, and called for a punishment of one year in jail and a fine of $100,000."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act_of_2005

Her suggestions are NOT liberal in any country but America, because Americans are so far conservative in most ways that centre-right seems liberal. If she tried to propose her policies in Europe she'd be treated as a conservative candidate.


I think you just want something to be true that isn't.

[Locrian]

207. you are spot on

Seems like a lot of people in the US are either star struck or just don't want to deal with reality.

[onenote]

33. FFS - I'm a Bernie supporter who finds this absurd

This forum has jumped the shark and then some.

On the one hand, there are those claiming Clinton can't win the GE because repubs hate her and now we have the claim that she's actually a moderate repub, which would seem to suggest she'd have an easier time that Bernie since she'd get the votes of moderate repubs rebelling against the crazy ass portion of their party that seems to be in ascent.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Both Bernie and Clinton can win the GE, but only if the party sticks together. Neither one is going to win if the Clinton supporters run around saying Bernie can't win because he's a bogeyman Socialist or if Sanders supporters run around saying Clinton (and presumably her supporters) are actually repubs.

Seriously, this forum has become a joke.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. +1

[Skidmore]

41. Thank you for interjecting a little

common sense into what passes for discussion on this board these days.

[lovemydog]

45. Indeed.

And here's some video:

[BootinUp]

64. Fonzie was so cool (before that) lol.

[sheshe2]

75. HA!

I loved that episode!

[BootinUp]

49. Yup, sure has. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. We dont have to say that....Bernie himself says it...

Show me where he has EVER called himself a Democrat

[onenote]

74. So if Bernie was to end up with the nomination would you refuse to support him?

Bernie is running for the Democratic nomination, not the Socialist nomination. Yes he's a self described Democratic Socialist, but that's not an organized party. He runs as an independent who caucuses with the Democrats. In most of his elections since the 1980s there hasn't been a Democrat on the ballot, yet we know there are Democrats in Vermont.

So yes, he can win if the party gets behind him if he gets the nomination. And no he can't win if the party divides. Of course the same can be said about Clinton.

[mcar]

79. Well said

[Phlem]

133. Uh try a little research. New Democrats = Third Way.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/third-way-panicking-over-bernie-sanders

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2015/09/worldwide-anti-corporatist-backlash-has-begun
In Britain, the result was Tony Blair’s “New” Labour; in America it was Bill Clinton’s “New” Democrats.

http://www.politico.com/story/2009/03/obama-i-am-a-new-democrat-019862

And your trying to me Hillary is going to be any different? Look at her donors.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/third-way-no-way

That was 5 minutes of research.

Your welcome.

[onenote]

148. And are all the folks that supported and worked for Bill Clinton

(and Obama) also not Democrats?

I'm a Democrat for Sanders. If he gets the Democratic party nomination, he will have my support -- as a Democrat. And if Clinton gets it -- she will have my support, as a Democrat. Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide who is or is not a Democrat. Although my personal view is that anyone who doesn't support the Democratic nominee in an election and thus contributes to the victory of a repub, is themselves more of a repub than they are a Democrat.

[Phlem]

151. OK then denial.

back to voting for the least evil. It's been working so well for so long.

have fun!

[onenote]

155. Exactly what am in denial about?

That Bernie is running for the Democratic party nomination and will be the Democratic nominee if he wins? That Clinton is running for the Democratic party nomination and will be the Democratic nominee if she wins? Bernie caucuses with the Democrats -- the folks that supported and elected Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Do you think he believes they're really republicans? If he doesn't capture the nomination (and I've sent money hoping to make it possible that he can) and he endorses Clinton, will you say he's in denial too?

Knock yourself in your fantasy land.

[tammywammy]

178. "This forum has jumped the shark and then some."

[wendylaroux]

36. sad sad sad!!!!! alot

of sad gd people here,aren't there?

so sad because their candidate is now equivalent to a moderate republican.

the same kind of republican Hillary was before she switched parties,back in the old days.

[lovemydog]

37. You should inform the BBC, The New York Times

and other news outlets.

President Obama is not a democrat. Hillary Clinton is not a democrat. Bill Clinton is not a democrat.

This is major news!

[BootinUp]

48. +1

[Skidmore]

38. Bill and Hillary and the President are Democrats.

Sanders is not a Democrat even though he is a lifelong politician.

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. +++10000

[restorefreedom]

42. i think these kinds of discussions show

that party identity as many of us grew up seeing is going blessedly away. ows and the millenials have shown us that party identity and "loyalty" are fast becoming meaningless in a world where republicans are supporting bernie and trump is (basically) advocating something very close to single payer healthcare.

its all about ideas now and policies not party.

[retrowire]

86. well said. n/t

[restorefreedom]

169. :) nt

[frylock]

167. I think this is starting to dawn on party stalwarts, and it scares them.

[restorefreedom]

168. yup. the party is over heh. nt

[bigwillq]

43. I think Bill, Hillary and Obama are moderate democrats (nt)

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. You can think it.....doesnt make it true..

How is THIS moderate?

[bigwillq]

76. I plead guilty

"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."

[Scuba]

44. Birds of a feather, and all that ...

[Renew Deal]

60. And Sanders honeymooned in the Soviet Union.

Guilt by association and all that.

Who is the guy sitting to the right in the picture?

[HomerRamone]

119. George Wallace, whippersnapper

[jhart3333]

125. Okay I'll bite. It's George Wallace.

You remember him don't you? Rabid pro segregation racist. Maybe you're too young. Or maybe you're old like me and your eyesight is failing. But what I see is Bill Clinton sitting at the same table and having a good time.

[Renew Deal]

147. I remember him

He looked familiar, but I remember him younger.

I found the picture. It is from 1983. http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/george-wallace/13/

[DhhD]

131. This has been debunked numerous times. Sanders was there representing a group of women.

[bravenak]

46. Hillary is a Democrat. Bill is a Democrat. Bernie Sanders is no Democrat.

[NurseJackie]

57. Thank you!

It needs to be said ........ often.

[bravenak]

63. Over and over! You can count on me to say it!

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. Right here with ya...

Though I was saying it a little before you...

[bravenak]

85. Well, I did feel the Bern. It was not that awesome.

[Bluenorthwest]

77. Bill and Hillary are DOMAcrats.

She can revise and deny but they are the original DOMAcrats.

[bravenak]

91. And Bernie is a mass incarcadindependent.

[Lil Missy]

50. Thank you, for letting me know I should never take anything you

you say seriously. Ever.

[book_worm]

51. Obama is not a moderate republican

He is strongly supported in poll after poll by Democrats for his policies including liberal and progressive democrats. This is why I dislike many Bernie supporters (though not Bernie himself, who on most issues has been a strong supporter of the president).

[zipplewrath]

110. Then why did he say it?

The OP is admittedly using a definition of "democrat" that is probably 40 or 50 years old. But even Obama has admitted that if we are talking about a GOP of 20 -30 years ago, much less the GOP of Ike, that he'd be a "moderate republican". Are you disputing this characterization?

[cascadiance]

189. Then WTF did he PUSH TPA so hard, and use his REPUBLICAN friends to pass it?

Huh? It was Democrats that knew this didn't work for most Americans that were the ones that opposed it (the NON corporatist, NON DINO ones).

So do Democrats "strongly" support Obama on this issue, which he pushed harder to get passed than any other bill (and he didn't even try to push single payer or public option against the Republicans when getting ACA through (which had a lot of gifts for his insurance company friends in it, even if it helped a lot of people get insurance coverage).

If he's such a Democrat, then why did he cite Ronald Reagan as the politician that motivated him in speeches instead of someone like FDR? Maybe he was being TRUTHFUL then?

[Starry Messenger]

53. Risible.

[brooklynite]

58. So, I guess there are 20 M Republicans in the Democratic Party as well?

Based on her 2008 performance and her 2016 polling?

[TDale313]

65. No, the Democratic Party has moved too far rightward.

The Republican Party has moved to Conservative Looney Town. There's a huge swath of the country that is that is Center-left to Left that has been left with very little representation.

[VanillaRhapsody]

71. How do you figure?

[sabrina 1]

70. Well, that's what she said herself. She doesn't view herself as a Liberal, nor do many other people.

[onenote]

82. She said she's not a Democrat and that she's a moderate Republican?

Do you know the definition of a lie?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

72. Your thread was alerted.

On Mon Nov 2, 2015, 04:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hillary is not a Democrat, she's a Moderate Republican like Obama and Bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251758822

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Put this thread out of its misery.

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Explanation: Whether you agree with her positions or not, I think technically she really is a Democrat not a republican.
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Explanation: Another frivolous whiney alert from a Hillarista.
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Explanation: It's just one person's opinion.
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[mcar]

73. ..

[MrWendel]

78. Another Tea Party Purity Test thread.

[Broward]

80. This post nails it. We are where we are.

We must wrest control of the Party back from these Republicans and move left again. I fear that most voters don't see or care just how far right both parties have moved over the past 35 years. The Repubs and the DLC/Third Wayers are both responsible for the economic struggles facing the vast majority of Americans today.

[MineralMan]

81. This smacks of desperation.

Very sad to see. Very sad, indeed.

[PatrickforO]

83. Good post. Very true.

Today's Democrats, with just a few exceptions aren't even Democrats. They are moderate Republicans.

[Gothmog]

84. And yet the polls of Democratic voters are running in her favor

The best persons to determine if Hillary Clinton is a real democrat should be the members of the Democratic party voting in the caucuses and primaries

[L0oniX]

87. Reagan Democrat?

[Agnosticsherbet]

88. LOL, best satire I've seen today.

[wyldwolf]

90. The 'DLC' card is SO tired.

Accepting that there is an imperfect fit between the Democratic Party and the furthest aims of left and progressive people, several things must be acknowledged.

First, it has to be acknowledged that left and progressive people really do not have solid ground to proclaim they and only they are true Democrats, or are the real base of the Democratic Party, and that people who are left of center or center-left or even centrists are not really Democrats or are 'Republicans.'

Second, left and progressive people need to consider whether the tactic of attacking people who are perhaps a bit to the right of them, though generally well to the left of a national average, or of the average in the locale where they reside, as rightists who do not belong in the Democratic Party, is likely to expand and increase their influence in the Democratic Party, and advance the prospects of actually getting laws and regulations they would like to see adopted come to pass.

The perennial brouha here about what constitutes a "real Democrat", bear very little relation with the actual states and history of the Democratic Party. The idea that figures like President Clinton and Secretary Clinton are not "real Democrats" is nothing but the punch-line to a very poor joke, although it is certainly true that they embraced many policies and ideas that some of our radicals today detest. But that latter is hardly an indication they were not "real Democrats"; rather, it is an indication that such radicals are somewhat out of step with the Democratic Party as a real institution and political force, as opposed to an ideal item they imagine not only to be fact, but to be wholly agreeable to them. The faction of the Democratic Party that opposed the Cold War had its political trial with the campaign for President of Sec. Wallace in 1948, and failed utterly, gaining the votes of only a handful of people. What is repudiated at the polls by the overwhelming preponderance of Democratic voters cannot be the real face of the Democratic Party. It really is that simple.

That President Clinton could be described from some vantages as centrist is hardly sufficient to establish as fact a claim he is not a "real Democrat". Such a statement depends on assent to the proposition that the Democratic Party is an organ of the far left, and there really is not a trace of support for this notion in history.

[SansACause]

92. Bernie is not a Democrat.

He is an Independent. He's lucky we let him caucus with us and come to our debates. There won't be a single Independent Super Delegate at the Democratic Convention. Good luck with getting the Party nomination.

[AgingAmerican]

95. So if Bernie gets the nod, the superdelegates will all go home without voting?

Thanks for the info!

[SansACause]

99. How?

How on earth would Bernie get the nod at the Democratic convention? Hillary will get the nod. The Democratic delegates are under no obligation to vote for someone who is not a Democrat.

[AgingAmerican]

100. By winning more state delegates

Despite your claim that the fix is in.

[SansACause]

106. You misunderstand the process.

Bernie has no Party. None. There is no Independent Convention. There is nothing binding about the Democratic primary vote. This is where Bernie's shunning of parties throughout his career comes back to bite him in the ass. He can be the 21st century Ross Perot, but the Democratic nomination is already a done deal for Hillary.

[AgingAmerican]

111. You misunderstand the process

Bernie is running for the Democratic nomination. Until you can admit that to yourself, you will continue chasing your tail shouting "The fix is in!".

[SansACause]

138. Sigh.

Do you know what a Superdelegate is? Hillary has at least 440. Bernie has none. It's just math at this point.

I am glad Bernie ran. He helped move the conversation to the left, and he's a helluva great guy. But you can't shun a Party all your career, then expect them to help you win the Presidency.

[Beast Boy]

174. Bernie has none?

Keith Ellison and Raul Grijalva begs to differ.

[brooklynite]

156. "By winning more state delegates"

Which States would those be?

[Maedhros]

93. Nah, they're Democrats.

They get elected as Democrats because the Democratic rank-and-file sets it standards so low.

[AgingAmerican]

94. When will Hillary ditch the right wing beliefs and join the Democratic Party?

Or is that what the 'Me too' is all about?

[wyldwolf]

96. When will Bernie ditch the far left and join the Democratic party?

[AgingAmerican]

104. He is barely to the left of center

And Hillary is pretending to hold his leftist positions. Does her 'me too!' make her 'far left' also?

List his policy proposals that are 'Far Left' whatever that means.

[wyldwolf]

105. He's way left of Center but more importantly, admittedly NOT a Democrat

[pnwmom]

98. Welcome to the 21st century. Where did you come from? The 1960's? n/t

[CaptainTruth]

101. Can I join the game? ... Hillary isn't human.

She's an alien hybrid created using the DNA from an Area 51 UFO crash & a golden retriever. The alien came from the planet of reptilians, who we all know comprise the Illuminati & control the UN. She's been sent to Earth as part of an evil plot so she can ascend to the presidency & confiscate all of the Earth's bacon, sending it to the planet Hexron 47. Hexron 47 doesn't have bacon because it only has anti-matter pigs & when they come in contact with normal matter they annihilate it in a massive explosion.

Only a very few Earthlings, who did massive quantities of LSD in the 1960s, know the truth.

You did not read this. I have said nothing. You know nothing.

[wyldwolf]

107. that story...

... is more believable than the OP.

[Ferd Berfel]

102. BINGO!!!!

EXACTLY COrrect

[Skittles]

103. OK you hate Hillary, WE GET IT already

Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 04:19 PM - Edit history (1)

[valerief]

109. That's how I see the Clintons and Obama. nt

[lovemydog]

177. That's why Sanders won't win.

The Obama coalition is intact, broad and strong.

Unduly criticizing it won't gain the votes needed to win the nomination.

[zentrum]

112. X10!

[UglyGreed]

113. Yes she

and IF she wins the death of the middle class will be on her watch......

[lovemydog]

114. Okay. That went well. Now let's all define hip hop.

Ready... Go!

[NonMetro]

115. A Lot Of People Don't Seem To Understand What You're Saying.

Yes, HRC is a moderate Republican. Moderate Republican = Clinton Democrat. It's really not that difficult to understand.

[redstateblues]

117. This is idiotic flamebait

Anytime Hillary has good news the ridiculous posts come out of the woodwork

[Sheepshank]

120. Up is down, left is right, no is yes......

.....Bernie is Dem and Hillary is not. I hate when it's bizarro opposite day and no one tells me about it.

[Phlem]

122. Boom!

Here they come!

PS... You are Spot On!

[Phlem]

123. K&R!

For the truth!

[thucythucy]

129. I doubt FDR, JFK or LBJ would pass your "progressive" litmus test if they were alive today.

FDR--saved capitalism from itself, supported the incarceration of Japanese Americans into concentration camps; refused to desegregate the armed forces; refused to apply the 14th amendment to federal programs in the South; courted the support of southern racists (Dixiecrats); favored mostly incremental changes as opposed to "revolution"--

JFK--authorized the invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs; supported the overthrow of the democratically elected (but socialist) government of Guyana; approved efforts to assassinate foreign leaders (esp. Castro); beefed up the US presence in Vietnam; accelerated the arms race through the spread of the bogus "missile gap" propaganda-

LBJ--Vietnam. Need I say more?

Anyway, I find it ironic that the supporters of a candidate who up until recently didn't even identify as a Democrat now give us lectures on who is and who isn't a Democrat.

I'm a Bernie supporter, and I think OPs like this are ridiculous, divisive, and wildly counterproductive.

Let's hope Bernie's campaign in the real world isn't as ham-handed and arrogant as some of what we've seen on-line.

[BootinUp]

130. nice post. nt

[thucythucy]

141. Just to be clear:

I rank FDR up there with Abraham Lincoln as our best president ever.

I think JFK did far more good for the country than harm, and view his murder as a terrible calamity.

I think LBJ was courageous in his support of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and his "war on poverty"--had it not been sidetracked by his disastrous Vietnam policy--might have accomplished great things.

Had I been of voting age back then, I gladly and without hesitation would have chosen FDR over Hoover, JFK over Nixon, and LBJ over Goldwater.

The point is, there are no progressive saints, none that accomplish anything in the real world, anyway. Every human being--including politicians--have positives and negatives.

Thank you for your kind comment. Best wishes.

[BootinUp]

175. One of my pet peeves around here and the tubes in general

is not getting history right or distorting it to make bogus political arguments. All of the Presidents you mention did courageous things when they were in office. They will always be looked back on that way. But you are correct to point out they had flaws or other policies that did not have great support from the left.

[wyldwolf]

134. posts like the OP betray a serious lack of knowledge on the Democratic party.

[JonLeibowitz]

162. I take almost nothing I see on DU literally. I refuse to believe people actually believe

what they post on here. That would be a terrifying proposition.

I'll go on record here as saying that Hillary is a Democrat, by technicality alone if nothing else, but it is a shame that the Democratic Party has moved so far right that her positions could easily have been that of a moderate Republican. Certainly *not* progressive by any use of the word.

[Thinkingabout]

132. Hillary is a Democrat, I will be voting for a Democrat in the DNC primary.

I don't need a guy who publishes articles about women fantasies with being raped.

[lobodons]

136. Hillary like Bill and Obama!!!??

Very good, where do I sign up to vote for her!!??

[oberliner]

137. Bernie has actually said "I am not a Democrat"

For what that is worth.

[SansACause]

140. Exactly.

Why would someone who has shunned the Democratic Party his whole career now expect us to nominate him as our Presidential candidate? It's called a Party for a reason.

[onenote]

163. Because maybe a lot of Democrats will decide he reflects what they want.

I"ve made it very clear that whatever labels anyone puts on themselves or others, the following facts are clear: Sanders and Clinton are both running for the nomination of the Democratic party and both have the support of lots of folks who identify themselves as, and have spent money and time knocking on doors for Democrats, including (in my case) for every Democratic presidential nominee since Humphrey (even though before he got the nomination I was a supporter first of Bobby and then of Gene).

Just as its ridiculous for the OP to suggest that Clinton isn't a Democrat (and by extension her supporters aren't supporting a Democrat and maybe aren't Democrats themselves), its ridiculous to suggest that because Bernie doesn't identify himself as a Democrat (although the vast majority of Democrats in Vermont have been voting for him since the 1980s) he isn't worthy of support from those people who do consider themselves as Democrats.

This entire she's this and he's that crap is revolting on both sides.

[fbc]

205. Because Bernie represents true democratic values

Not the weak compromising and selling out that the democratic party has come to stand for.

[fbc]

204. So will a lot of other people if Hillary Clinton is the nominee.

[oberliner]

216. People will decide not to be Democrats?

What about all of the other Democrats on the local and state level?

[RoccoR5955]

139. True Dat.

I have always said that Bill Clinton was one of the best Republican presidents that we ever had!

[MannyGoldstein]

142. Hillary's to the right of Obama, and Obama...

[oberliner]

143. No True Scotsman fallacy

Are you familiar with it?

[ish of the hammer]

145. There ya go !!!!

as another poster on another site said

Hillary: Making sure women get a bigger piece of the middle-class pie that her neoliberal, DLC, pro-Wall Street, pro-Pentagon, pro-TPP, Republican-lite economic policies are designed to shrink. - expatjouro

azp- I'll be quoting you, a lot!

[JoePhilly]

150. Bernie should run against Obama.

I say that as a Hillary supporter.

[senz]

161. Sure, let's have a little more divisiveness.

Hillary supporter.

[JoePhilly]

171. Isn't that the point of the OP?

[senz]

179. The OP holds up an ideal and shows how a candidate falls short

of that ideal. That's fair because we're trying to make a choice. Assessing the candidates is the correct thing for us to do at this stage of the game.

But your suggestion had nothing to do with ideals and assessment. You advocated opposition between two liberal politicians. Don't know if you're aware of this, but Bernie likes Obama and says so frequently, even though he will admit that he doesn't like some of Obama's choices. That's okay, too.

In fact, and I wish I could say this to ALL Hillary supporters, you don't have to approve of everything she does. You can prefer her for your own reasons, but that doesn't mean you're a clone of hers. I'd think more highly of Hillary supporters if they could admit that some of what she does is unsavory, even though they support her.

This is probably more of a reply than you wanted, lol.

[JoePhilly]

187. You give the OP too much credit.

This is a choice. A realistic choice.

If the OP thinks this distinction helps Bernie, then he should use it as such.

This is not an abstract discussion.

If Bernie supporters think he'd be a better president than Obama has been, they should be upfront and honest about that position.

[senz]

193. I think you're being disingenuous.

Bernie is running for President based on telling the truth about how the oligarchs have, for decades, taken over our country. Bernie is running against the oligarchs. He is not running against Obama. Obama is not an oligarch. Hillary, one of the other Dems running for president, is an oligarch.

I notice in other threads that Hillary supporters are trying to oppose Bernie to Obama. Another false meme. Y'oughtta be ashamed of yerselves.

Hillary should run on the issues, not on personalities.

[ronnykmarshall]

152. Let's see last time I checked my registration I'm a Democrat

and voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 & 1996 and for Hillary Clinton the 2008 primary and for Obama in general election in 2008 and 2012.

I'm a Democrat.

[senz]

157. Obama may not be perfect, but he's a damn sight better than the Clintons.

Seriously. He's not in love with wealth and he hasn't tried to build a personal empire. That right there puts him head and shoulders above the Clintons.

I really wish people could focus a little more carefully. A broad brush is unjust.

But you are so right that Bernie is a true Democrat, an FDR Democrat, the heir to Jack and especially Robert Kennedy, and LBJ, and MLK.

He can take us back home to the real Democratic Party.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

159. The DLC for YEARS kept claiming they were right due to Clinton's presidency.

[cascadiance]

190. And another big factor in the DLC's rise to power was the Koch Brothers funding...

... and contributing members to its staff too. Don't DINOs just LOVE those Stalin-money dispensing John Birch society Koch Brothers!!!! Republicans love them too!

[relayerbob]

160. One word

Bullshit



... and I support Bernie

[stupidicus]

166. so very true, but don't expect ignorant righties to figure that out

that been one of the toughest things to get the average rightwing chucklehead past -- BHO is not a socialist/commie, and probably closer to Saint Raygun than the average Pea Partier.

Those that think most rightwingers are gonna see much daylight (much less what we see) between Bernie and her are giving those idiots way to much credit.

[SharpProgress]

170. Cool. Story...

Bro.

Other than this making zero sense, it makes sense.

This post reminds me of alllllll the Facebook posts by people that seem to think the Democratic and Republican parties are completely indistinguishable.

The fact remains that at this point in time the two parties could not be further from each other. you might not like some Hillary's policies, and none of us like TPP, and other stuff that has been compromised as well.

But honestly, you're not making to post to persuade anyone. You're barking into the echo chamber of the ideologically pure. I've been hearing teabaggers do it for years crying RINO RINO RINO at anyone they have disagreements with.

If you ever think that maybe you're simply not a Democrat?

Bring a compelling argument, or doing bring anything. My 2¢.

[AZ Progressive]

173. Everyone here who's sensitive should remember that its the Hillary posters who questioned Bernie

as not even being a Democrat, as if Hillary was an authentic Democrat. The Clintons helped in the coup d'etat of the Democratic Party, a party that used to stand up for the working class and economic progressivism. Instead they sold it to Wall Street.

[RBInMaine]

176. I think your post is ridiculous nonsense. C'mon. Get a grip. You're out in TeaLeft field.

[senz]

182. Only if Abe Lincoln was "TeaLeft."

-- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

-- Abraham Lincoln November 19, 1863

It's the "of, by, and for the people" bit that the DLC dropped and Bernie retrieved.

You can scorn that all you want.

[cprise]

183. Points for citing her neocon status. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

185. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

[kelliekat44]

198. name me one "true Democrat" President since FDR. nt

[Enthusiast]

199. Kicked and recommended to the Max!

[Sheepshank]

200. But has Bernie ever said he is a Democrat?

has he ever said he would help build and strengthen the party to withstand the Republican juggernaut?

Yep...as I thought, it's opposite day again today. Hillary is not a Dem and Bernie is

[fbc]

203. Ha! " build and strengthen the party" LOL

You build and strengthen the party by getting people excited about your candidates, attracting new voters, and getting them to the polls.

Bernie is exactly the person that can do this. Hillary will inspire nothing but apathy with a huge percentage of democrats and attract no new voters to the party.

[Sheepshank]

208. nope...he is about to do the party enough damage that it will take 20 years to repair

his crusaders are all in with that too. It's a sad sad state of affairs.

[fbc]

210. Sorry, it is the compromising moderates that are the dinosaurs

And in 20 years they will be extinct

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/18/democrats-are-more-liberal-today-than-at-anytime-in-the-last-15-years/

[Sheepshank]

211. Interesting (but unrelated) post. You should start a new OP with that. :) n/t

[cui bono]

217. How so?

[fbc]

201. That explains her popularity with establishment democrats

They love moderate republicans.

[HassleCat]

206. Then and now

As you pointed out, Bernie Sanders fits the model of a traditional Democrat. The Third Way movement, the element that controls the party right now, responds with, "Big yawn! So last Tuesday!" They believe the way to keep Democrats in office is to shift far enough rightward to steal issues and positions out from under the Republicans. It works, sort of, for a Democratic president providing he or she gets elected in the first place. Obamacare is a good example. And it sometimes works to get Democrats elected as president, Bill Clinton being an example. But it sucks as an overall strategy. We are now the minority party at every level of government, from the national congress, down to state legislatures and governorships, right down to school boards. We are doing something terribly, terribly wrong.

[whathehell]

215. [phone] n/t

[Dustlawyer]

218. Proud to be the 100th rec!

Substitute "corporate" for moderate and you have it.

[Tarc]

219. Clinton is a moderate Democrat

which aligns with my own beliefs, hence my support. "Moderate" is not a dirty word.