If TPP passes with support from Democrats, we are fucked for 2016

[eridani]

--regardless of who gets the nomination. This will take the energy away from all the potential doorbellers and phonebankers.

[99th_Monkey]

1. We're all fucked if TPP passes, if we care anything about democracy, climate change, workers, etc.

I hear tell that the Liberals who were just elected in Canada support the damn thing? I don't
know how that works. Is there a special set of "goodies" in the package just for Canada,
that are just too tempting? Have they been co-opted by their corporatist "friends"?

Yah, I hear you, but IF -- goddess forbid -- it passes before the election, I wouldn't read too
much doom and gloom into it for Bernie's campaign, as it could just as easily light a hotter fire
under him and his political revolution.

[davidpdx]

38. I agree, the passage of the TPP may help Sanders campaign

If people are awake enough to realize they are being fucked. I think regardless of what Hillary Clinton has said very few people believe she is against the TPP given that she supported it as SoS. Even IF one were to believe what she says now about opposing the TPP, she'll do a 180 if she elected and support it.

[jfern]

2. Doesn't it require Obama's support to pass?

[eridani]

3. If it is stopped in congress, it's gone. That's what we have to work with n/t

[artislife]

14. We need to pressure our own two senators more. nt

[eridani]

16. Murray and Cantwell both admit that most of the calls they get are against n/t

[ibegurpard]

4. Well that's pretty much a given

Since he fought his own party for fast track authority for it...

[jfern]

5. Well then it passes with support from at least one Democrat even if every Democrat in Congress

votes no

[arcane1]

64. "fought his own party" is spun into "working with the other side" these days

[Eric J in MN]

48. Obama is a big supporter of the TPP (NT)

NT

[peacebird]

84. Obama not only supports TPP, he is a cheerleader for it

[djean111]

6. I can tell you right now that I will not vote for anyone who votes for the TPP, who voted for

Fast Track, or who shilled for the TPP. Not my only litmus test for DINO, but between this, and the membership of the new Democrat coalition, close enough. And remember, part of Pelosi's job is to arrange votes so that someone can safely vote no when their record screams they would have voted yes, or vice-versa, in order to placate constituents if there is an upcoming election.

[Enthusiast]

8. I'm with you.

[bigwillq]

7. Does the average voter care about TPP?

[mmonk]

9. The aware do.

[djean111]

10. I bring this up to friends and family. Quite a lot.

Any votes I can influence, I will influence, and I doubt that I am alone. All any of us can do is spread the word, and not enable with our votes. So - that is what I am doing.

[eridani]

13. No, but the people who will be doing doorbelling and phonebanking sure the hell do n/t

[firebrand80]

61. I doubt the average voter understands trade agreements period. nt

[BlueCaliDem]

86. Thank you!

Too many here who are totally against TPP and biased (but not the European version - which strikes me as odd. Hm) are panicking ahead of time, but the average voter really could give a damn. They're more interested in the economy and jobs, and President Obama is sitting pretty there, paving the way for another Democrat to win the White House.

Monsanto, GMO's, and trade deals are of little to no importance to the average American voter.

[99Forever]

11. If?

It might as well have already passed. It already got "Democratic Party" support with TPA. Obama claims to be a Democrat, correct me if I'm wrong.

It doesn't need a single Democrat in Congress to vote yes. None. Zero. That way they can get their payback from their corporate "donors" and still pretend they opposed it. We are already fucked.

Don't expect to be kissed either.

[davidpdx]

35. You are indeed right according to this article

It could essentially be passed by the Republican with no D votes:

Fast-track, or trade promotion authority, will allow the White House to send trade deals to Congress for up-or-down votes. The Senate will not be able to filibuster them, and lawmakers will not have the power to amend them.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/246035-senate-approves-fast-track-sending-trade-bill-to-white-house

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. I suspect ...

This will take the energy away from all the potential doorbellers and phonebankers.

But only those who strongly oppose the TPP ... which represents a small minority of Party Activists/volunteers.

[artislife]

15. Which is a crying shame

Because it alters the future like a bad sci fi movie.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. Wouldn't a more accurate statement be ...

Which is a crying shame ...

Because I believe people that oppose it, who speculate that it will alter the future like a bad sci fi movie.

[daleanime]

29. Have you looked at the data on Climate Change lately?

Our future is looking like a bad sci fi movie. Oh well, might as well dance on the deck of the Titanic.

[1StrongBlackMan]

42. And the TPP is the cause of climate change? Granted ...

the environmental sections, though tougher, with more enforcement mechanisms, than other trade agreements will not reverse climate change (based on the USTR's Objectives) ... but to say the TPP is cli9mate change horrible, is facile, at best.

[daleanime]

43. Cause? No.

Make it harder to fight? Hell yes.

[1StrongBlackMan]

44. Speculation. Just like most of the other horrific things tagged to this trade agreement ...

I suspect this trade agreement will be just like any other multi-party agreement ... it will have some good stuff and some bad stuff; but, none will be great or terrible, for any of the parties.

[daleanime]

45. Speculation? No.

Convince you? Never happen.

But it's not like it's the end of the world is it?

[artislife]

47. He must be reading this

https://ustr.gov/tpp/

I wonder who was reading the proganda and believing them.

Could this be hyped up nonsense
http://www.exposethetpp.org/

Not if you remember who has paid for our government. Or watched the money syphon away .



SMH

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. Yes ...

I base my non-position on the USTR's Objectives ... and since the USTR reached agreement with the other parties, it is reasonable to speculate that they met (or came close to meeting) those Objectives.

Funny how propaganda is any statement/communication disagrees with MY position.

Question: What is a statement(s) that are full of hyped up speculation? Is it any less, "propagandaish" because I agree with the speculation?

[artislife]

56. Those who forget history tend to repeat it.

You have lost me on this one.

This is the major difference between Bernie supporters and other supporters. The complete distrust in how corporations are shaping laws, governments and beyond.

Bees die and no one but governments can stop it. Love Canal can happen and it takes real effort to get something done, just not before birth defects and deaths.

Quick reminder of what our government does. Maybe this one will cause you to pause,
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/04/true-story-behind-appalling-tuskegee-syphilis-experiment/

Thought I would get another viewpoint from around the world
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/nov/11/unions-call-for-halt-in-tpp-negotiations-so-that-agreement-can-be-scrutinised


http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/12/trans-pacific-partnership-explainer

Who is against this trade deal?

Among those speaking out against the agreement are unions, workers’ rights groups and environmentalists, all of whom have traditionally been Obama supporters. Many in the president’s own party – including senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren – oppose the trade deal. Free speech advocates and financial reformers are also worried about the deal. Warren is specifically afraid that if it is passed, a future president could use the TPP to change regulations like Dodd-Frank that are meant to safeguard US investors.

Who supports the agreement?

Big businesses like Nike – from whose headquarters Obama controversially chose to shill for the deal last week – support the agreement because it would reduce the tariffs on the shoes they produce overseas and then ship to the US. (Right now 98% of shoes in the US are imported.) They also argue free trade will benefit US companies and create more jobs at home. The deal would clarify trade rules that currently ensnare businesses large and small in red tape and arguably make trading in the Pacific rim far easier.

Go ahead and trust it.


PS I don't think we will convince each other otherwise. This is probably an impass.

[daleanime]

54. Nope....

try this.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CE4QFjADahUKEwi1yOyRweDIAhXIbB4KHZQ3DBM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2014%2F11%2F09%2Fbooks%2Freview%2Fnaomi-klein-this-changes-everything-review.html&usg=AFQjCNE_Fe2CwjCmxCmqgh2Biapbf8httg&sig2=JPn2QzXl-Y_kIjmnBd34yA

[arcane1]

65. Overwhelming republican support, and few Dems supporting it. That makes it good?

[1StrongBlackMan]

67. While the numbers may have changed since the last time that assertion was made ...

TPP garners(ed) majority support of Democratic voters (though not our representatives) and a majority opposition by republican voters (though not their representatives).

[artislife]

88. I guess this is a subject

that you will have to differ with your chosen candidate, Martin O'Malley. I get it, no candidate perfectly matches a list we have in our heads as to the right answers, still he seems to be firmly against it.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/10/26/omalley_on_hillary_a_weathervane_shifts_its_positions_in_the_wind_effective_leaders_do_not.html


He's pretty rough on my guy Bernie and guns, but that is one area I think Bernie could do better, too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

89. Yes ... He opposes the TPP and I have no opinion, other than, ...

it will not be as bad as its opponents speculate, nor as wonderful as its supporters speculate.

My disagreeing with O'Malley on this is not a deal breaker for me.

[Art_from_Ark]

18. And that's a shame

because the TPP is one big Piece Of Shit "trade" deal.

[1StrongBlackMan]

19. Wouldn't the more accurate statement be ...

Wouldn't a more accurate statement be ...

Which is a crying shame ...

Because I believe people who oppose it, and say the TPP is one big Piece Of Shit "trade" deal.

[Art_from_Ark]

20. No, I stand by what I have said

Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

I have seen the TPP debated in the Japanese parliament and have met people on the Japanese side who were privy to the negotiations, one of whom who went on to start an organization opposed to the deal and who has led many anti-TPP rallies and events in Japan.

So yes, for the average Joe and Jane it's a goddam piece of shit trade deal.

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. I asked a question. ...

Where did you see the Japanese Parliament debate and how did you come to meet with Japanese side who were privy to the negotiations?

[Art_from_Ark]

25. Debates were shown on Japanese TV

I met people who were privy to the negotiations at a rally in Tokyo last May, which I posted an OP about at the time.

I have also read comments from Japanese politicians about this TPP, like these

TPPの本当の目的は、アメリカ株式会社がISDS条項を自由に駆使できるようにすることで、TPP参加国を実質的に支配することです。
"The real purpose of the TPP is for American corporations to essentially wield control over TPP member nations by freely using provisions of the ISDS at their beck and call"

http://kaleido11.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-3683.html?sp

.html?sort=3&o=47

.html?sort=3&o=48

.html?sort=3&o=46

[randome]

22. Care to tell us why your friend is opposed?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Art_from_Ark]

23. I gave you the link to my OP from last May

Did you not read it?

[randome]

26. Well, your Japanese link above has not one reason for opposing the TPP. It's a screed about America.

Give us something specific.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Art_from_Ark]

28. I gave you something specific when I gave you that link to my OP

Quit playing bullshit games.

[randome]

30. I don't need a link from May. I'm asking you now, here, if you are so clear that the TPP is bad...

...then tell us one thing specific that you find so egregious. You seem pretty certain of yourself so I would think you wouldn't need to reference some older post.

All I usually hear from opponents is that it's bad, bad, bad, we're headed for the Apocalypse.

One thing specific that is not based on an emotional interpretation, that's what I am asking for.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Art_from_Ark]

34. Do you honestly think that all of the bad things have miraculously been fixed since May?

Geez. In May the reports were that TPP negotiations were in their final phase.

But if you want specifics, here are a few.

1) Stalling the appearance of generic drugs by extending pharma copyrights
2) Restricting labeling of GMOs and forcing the abolishment of Japan's incentives for purchasing fuel-efficient cars because they are "non-tariff barriers". A proposed similar system was thwarted in Korea due to the SKFTA.
3) Allowing foreign fisheries unrestricted access to local fishing grounds.
4) Privatizing of public health insurance systems and public infrastructure
5) Disallowing country of origin labeling
6) Enabling foreign corporations to override local environmental protections through ISDS.

[randome]

37. Some of it is good, some of it is not.

1) This does concern me.

2) I personally don't care and I don't think most people care.

3) http://www.nereusprogram.org/ask-an-expert-what-impacts-will-the-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp-have-on-the-trade-of-fish-and-seafood/

On October 5th, twelve countries reached an agreement on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which would create the world’s largest free-trade zone. The countries involved — Canada, Japan, the USA, Brunei, Chile, New Zealand, Singapore, Mexico, Vietnam, Australia, Peru and Malaysia — represent 40 percent of the world’s economy. The TPP would see tariffs on fish and seafood being eliminated, allowing for potentially more exports and imports between partnering countries, and new environmental and labour standards put in place.

There's no such thing as 'unrestricted access' so long as access is granted fairly to both foreign and domestic companies.

4) Privatizing stuff. It's complicated and I don't understand all the nuances of it.

5) Makes sense so that one country does not promote their own companies at the expense of others. It levels the playing field, which is exactly what TPP is designed to do.

6) No one is going to override environmental protections so long as those protections are applied equally to both foreign and domestic companies.

So, sure, there are some things to be concerned about. Yet I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on the 2016 election.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Art_from_Ark]

40. Here's a commentary from last week

「TPPは、日本の主権、生活すべてに悪影響のある条約だが、安保法案と同様に、マスコミが危険性を報道しない。アメリカの次期大統領候補2名（ヒラリー・クリントン氏とバーニー・サンダース氏）は、TPPに反対を表明している。日本の国会でも、この条約の危険性をもっと国民に知らしめなければならない」

TPP is a treaty that will have an adverse effect on the rights and lives of Japanese, but like the Anpo Hoan (recent proposal to remilitarize Japan), its dangers are not being reported in the mass media. Two leading candidates for the upcoming US presidential election (Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders) have both expressed opposition to TPP. In the Japanese Parliament as well, the people of Japan should have been better informed about the dangers.

Katsuyuki Haranaka, Representative, TPP Koushou Sashi/Iken Soshou no Kai
TPP交渉差止・違憲訴訟の会

http://iwj.co.jp/wj/open/archives/269513

[artislife]

50. But, but, but, but

Hillary is kinda of against it now....


Surely that changes your stance because H isn't anything if she isn't the leader. Sure you all twist and turn on a dime, bring the image of a school of fish to my mind with the easy of complete change and quickness of that change.

[randome]

57. Please. I've said I'd prefer Sanders to Clinton.

But facts are facts -Clinton looks slated to win the general and the election. She plays politics too often, I think that's obvious. I'm not going to support her in everything and she's not going to support me in everything.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[artislife]

58. No she isn't. nt

[davidpdx]

36. If it is passed in all 11 countries I believe South Korea will essentially be forced into the TPP

because there will be fear that if they don't get in that it will hurt their trade with the countries who have signed it. Nine of the eleven countries that have signed the TPP are major trade partners of South Korea: Chile, New Zealand, Singapore, Australia, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Peru, and the United States. Other countries that could get sucked into the agreement include: Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, etc.

[Art_from_Ark]

70. I think Vietnam is already included in TPP

[davidpdx]

72. Could be

When I looked it up I did not see it.

*Bump for a good thread*

[Art_from_Ark]

87. Vietnam's listed as a member on the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs' web site

環太平洋パートナーシップ（TPP）協定とは，オーストラリア，ブルネイ，カナダ，チリ，日本，マレーシア，メキシコ，ニュージーランド，ペルー，シンガポール，米国及びベトナム(=Vietnam)の合計12か国(12 countries)で

"There are 12 countries in the TPP: Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the United States, and Vietnam."

http://www.mofa.go.jp/mofaj/gaiko/tpp/

[Armstead]

24. I Believe it is like so many stupid things the US have done over the last 30 years....

that "progressives" believed were bad at the time and warned against, like excessive deregulation, NAFTA, welfare deform, allowing banking monopolization, Iraq War, etc.

But warnings were brushed aside because the "smart people in charge" knew so much better.

I believe so many of tose warnings have come true. TAA fits into that category of one of those.

10 years from now I believe we will look back and say "What were we thinking?"

[think]

27. Clinton, O'Malley, & Sanders all oppose the TPP. Doesn't that mean anything?

[Art_from_Ark]

32. Clinton opposes it out of expediency

The other two oppose it out of principle

[think]

33. I can't argue with that...

[JRLeft]

31. It will.

[taught_me_patience]

39. the TPP is supported by the majority of Americans

[Art_from_Ark]

41. The majority of Americans have no clue as to what is in it.

And the majority of Democrats in Congress (some of whom, like Elizabeth Warren, have actually seem the document) are against it.

[Hoyt]

53. Those against it don't seem to have any idea either. Every opponent I've read can't get the fact

that the ISDS is in darn near every trade agreement worldwide since 1959, and countries -- even the Scandinavian ones -- still want to sign these agreements because they want to attract foreign investment, jobs, and tax revenue.

[Art_from_Ark]

55. Oh, FFS

People have read what has been released about TPP on Wikileaks, people who have inside information about this in other countries have come out against it, and most Congressional Democrats are against it. Some like Elizabeth Warren have actually read some of it, but under the tightest security without even being allowed to take notes. It is a secretive treaty that is designed to enrich a small number of people and corporations at the expense of the average citizen in member countries.

[Hoyt]

62. Warren is still telling gullible people that the text won't be available for years after it passes.

She's been spreading a lot of misinformation, I assume for her benefit.

[Art_from_Ark]

71. The UK Independent agrees with Warren

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tpp-trade-agreement-text-won-t-be-made-public-for-four-years-a6680476.html

[Hoyt]

73. It will be released several months before Congress votes. Warren needs to read better sources.

I assume she is just uninformed, but she could just be playing to gullible people. She clearly doesn't care for truth.

Independent needs to update their articles and learn the difference between negotiating documents and final agreement.

[Armstead]

59. Some things ae inherently bad

Trade agreements that go far beyond actual rules for trade, and which are written and negotiated in secret by the coproations for the corporations are inherently bad.

Trade agreements that grease the wheels by encouraging either floods of cheap imports and/or outsourcing of domestic jobs.

That kind of shit is just wrong. No matter the details.

[Hoyt]

63. Corporations didn't write the agreement, career diplomats negotiated most of it under Obama.

We live in a global world. We can stick our heads in the sand, and wake up one day starting over making American Finger Traps (like what China started with in the 1950s). Besides, this is not just a USA deal. It impacts the world economy, which in turn impact us.

[Alittleliberal]

46. The majority of Americans are wrong about a whole lot of stuff.

[Recursion]

90. That's no way to win an election, though... (nt)

[Fearless]

49. It most certainly is not.

[taught_me_patience]

60. Here's some facts for you

Americans generally support free trade:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181886/majority-opportunity-foreign-trade.aspx?utm_source=Economy&utm_medium=newsfeed&utm_campaign=tiles

TPP specific:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/23/americans-favor-tpp-but-less-than-other-countries-do/

[Live and Learn]

77. Free trade, not unfair trade! nt

[arcane1]

66. So is Christianity.

That doesn't make it true.

[eridani]

68. Bullshit. Every congressional representative in my state says that comments are--

--overwhelmingly against.

[Hoyt]

52. I think most doorbellers/phonebankers I've met are smart enough to dig through TPP misinformation.

Otherwise, I'm not sure the doorbellers/phonebankers are really going to get through to anyone who might change their vote to a Democrat, or is thinking of sitting home. Just my opinion of course.

[eridani]

69. The ones who work for Democrats are typically members of labor unions and--

--environmental organizations. TPP will put a huge damper on their enthusiasm.

[Hoyt]

74. Not necessarily, majority of unions represent those who won't be hurt by global trade, no matter

how much you want to believe the doom and gloom stories -- Government workers, firefighters, police, teachers, etc.

The TPP will improve environment -- might not be enough, but it will improve.

[eridani]

75. More 1%er garbage

There are zero unions and zero environmental groups enamored of "trade" deals that have everything to do with corporations fucking over elected governments and nothing to do with "trade"

[Hoyt]

76. Government workers, teachers and firefighters are in great fear of their jobs being sent to Vietnam.

[eridani]

78. Which is txactly what all these bullshit "trade" agreements facilitate n/t

[Hoyt]

79. No they do not.

[eridani]

80. Spoken like a true beneficiary of same. n/t

[Hoyt]

81. How is that?

[eridani]

83. Who else but a corpporatist is in favor of fucking over the 99%? n/t

[Hoyt]

85. I don't believe the 99% are being F#@&ed over by the TPP, here or globally.

[peacebird]

82. If TPP passes we are royally screwed no matter who wins the Presidency.