2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI've changed my mind.
It's probably clear that I am a bit more undecided than even I thought I was at first. I've now volunteered for two different campaigns and enjoyed my time with both groups, I've donated to three campaigns (not much $$$ but some).
This has been a very interesting cycle for me as I feel strongly for two of the five main candidates.
I've had the pleasure as a student in Vermont, and Vermont resident of working directly with Bernie Sanders and my experiences have only been positive. I've also had the pleasure of voting for Sanders and helped him get elected to the US Senate.
I've also had the pleasure to have had several interactions with Hillary Clinton over the last decade, and in the past three weeks I've seen her three times, and contrary to what you hear I haven't paid $2700 to make it happen.
I general both of these candidates are great, and have good records on most issues. However at this time I've decided throw my support behind one, and that is as it turns out Hillary Clinton. I'm pretty excited about this, and I hope that I can keep working to get whomever ends up winning the primary elected in the general. And no my decision had nothing to do with anyone's supporters and everything to do with who I think can win this in 2016.
Let's all keep working to make sure whomever our nominee is, wins.
Wining in 2016 is what matters!
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Gothmog
(145,666 posts)The key thing is to win in 2016
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And how will Clinton manage to overcome whatever that is?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Not matter who the nominee is we all need to work to make sure they win. And it will take work.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This carries the assumption that other Democrats can't beat the Republicans, or that Clinton has some special "something" that gives her the ability to overcome Republicans where every other Democrat would fail.
I keep hearing the argument that Clinton is the only one who can beat the republcians, and you seem a really reasonable dude(?), so I'm hoping to find out why that is.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I think she can win the GE.
However I will absolutely WORK, DONATE, and VOTE for whomever the nominee is.
For me her debate performance was very good, and that stood out to me as something that will help in the GE. I also think she has been tested, and tested again, and I'm not so sure the others have or would pass that test.
But it is what it is, we all will have different opinions here, and that's okay. That's why we have a primary.
I think I'm pretty reasonable, most of the time, thanks
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Why the hell do people get so defensive why I ask why they think Clinton's our only chance against the republicans? I mean... you're saying it, I gotta assume there's a reason
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I was just hoping to get an answer to that question. Ah well.
And the people downthread calling you a liar are acting an ass.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Some are choosing to vote for who they think can win, some are voting for who they think has the best chance of winning (based on the fear-based mantra of "anything is better than a republican" , others are choosing their candidate based on what they want to see happen for the US. There are tons of deciding factors, but those seem to be the big ones.
I can't say I'm not a little disappointed you chose Hillary. But, I'm sure you have your reasons... I just hope they are well supported, whatever they may be.
DFW
(54,448 posts)I got the implication that the OP meant that in their opinion HRC had the best (i.e. not the only) chance of winning the general not the only chance. Personally, I think that if the Republicans don't come up with someone better than they have so far (or--unless one of them is far better than they seem so far), our candidate is the next president no matter who it is. Like 2008, I think this primary battle is being fought so intensely because it is a contest not just for the nomination, but for the White House.
Sure, the Republicans will put up a fierce media battle, but even a gold-plated Lada won't drive any faster or smoother than a Lada with a single coat of green paint (or, with a nod to Belmondo, "rose avec des étoiles vertes" . Their problem, in a nutshell:
All the Kochs' money and all the Kochs' men
Found no one whose I Q was higher than ten.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 18, 2015, 04:01 PM - Edit history (1)
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)All I've done is say how I will support the nominee no matter who that is...
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)I edited that to add IMO.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It doesn't mean I'm right, but I have decided that again IMO she has a better chance. It still remains to be seen if I am right.
Gothmog
(145,666 posts)How will Bernie Sanders compete in a general election where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate will be spending another billion dollars??? Clinton will be able to use super pac money but Sanders will be defenseless and under financed without super pacs. I have asked this same question a number of times and have yet to receive an answer that would cause me to consider supporting Sanders.
merrily
(45,251 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)eom
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)12th person banned from it after he attempted to lead it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1280
You have to look at the totality of the posts. Not only the part that says, "I am a Bernie supporter" or "I am undecided." Then goes on to defend Hillary, but never Bernie. I've discussed this with Agschmid before. His reply? "It is what it is."
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It is what it is.
I've changed my mind.
DhhD
(4,695 posts)in politics. Warren will never move away from backing Glass-Steagal as Clinton has done.
Clinton will always back, bank privatization. Inequality is separating the nation in to the 95% against the 5%. Clinton supported public law-FAIR in 1998, and has never changed into a Progressive. She is still the Populist 1% running to re-adjust the over reach of capitalism, only capitalism has slide too far to the Right taking Clinton with it. If Clinton did get the nomination, she would have to move Left into Warren territory. I believe that knowing this, will not happen, has allowed you to readjust your support of a just cause (not a lost cause).
Hooray for Democrats, all of us. Now if we can just get everybody out to vote.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Can't argue that point.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)How can anyone trust ANY of her positions?
cprise
(8,445 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Typically she polls about 35% yes, 60% no there
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
LiberalArkie
(15,730 posts)On Sun Oct 18, 2015, 12:40 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Neither did the Bernie Sanders Group.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=697825
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
These insults against a DUer, who simply disagrees with the poster, are uncalled for.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Oct 18, 2015, 12:47 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
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Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I do not see any personal attack.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: How sad the attempt to silence words of truth. The post is proven true. QED
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm not seeing any insults.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yes, this is a person attack. There's too much of this stuff where where someone researchers what someone else said and casts aspersions. It's mostly part of the Hillary-Bernie battle (even though most Hillary supporters have been driven away from DU). At any rate, merrily is attacking Agschmid directly - which has no policy or primary value. Hide it.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Cannot reply to automated messages
merrily
(45,251 posts)Even the only juror who voted no and explained the vote said it was based on research, LOL! Well, not so much research as having some posts trigger my bs meter, then noticing that every post I saw after that confirmed my initial impression, as did confronting the poster. Not something I pulled out of my ear by any means.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)The good thing is I know where I stand, and I know how I made that decision.
bvf
(6,604 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Also they misspelled "casts asparagus".
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)the "fair" jury members post the results of the non-biased system they on to promote their own political preference to further attack the person that altered the post?
Wow. I guess there's no reason to alert a post.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I love the last minute Warren blitz before this oh-so-surprising-announcement.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)We do drama well.
It is what it is.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 18, 2015, 02:21 PM - Edit history (1)
surprised no one who actually supported Bernie.
FLOATER
(1 post)She didn't believe in us then, why should we believe on what she said?
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)and first post is an attack. Nice. You'll love it here. Hillary supporters are shit and Bernie supporters walk on water. Welcome.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Bubzer
(4,211 posts)People here can sometimes get as contentious as a room full of angry liberals and conservatives. They're good people, just sometimes they get a little too impassioned about their position.
Welcome to DU
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Welcome dear.
I'm sure you'll just think this place is the cats ass!!
cprise
(8,445 posts)This Bush-ite co-authored a roadmap for regime change in the Middle East (developed the rationale for invading Iraq, etc...)
I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy, Mr. Kagan said, adding that the next step after Mr. Obamas more realist approach could theoretically be whatever Hillary brings to the table if elected president. If she pursues a policy which we think she will pursue, he added, its something that might have been called neocon, but clearly her supporters are not going to call it that; they are going to call it something else.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/16/us/politics/historians-critique-of-obama-foreign-policy-is-brought-alive-by-events-in-iraq.html
Clinton proclaimed that she too deeply concerned about Iranian aggression and the need to confront it. Its a ruthless, brutal regime that has the blood of Americans, many others and including its own people on its hands. Even worse, she said, Its political rallies resound with cries of Death to America. Its leaders talk about wiping Israel off the face of the map, most recently just yesterday, and foment terror against it. There is absolutely no reason to trust Iran. She repeated that claim several times for emphasis: They vow to destroy Israel. And thats worth saying again. They vow to destroy Israel.
She vowed that in dealing with Iran, she will be tougher and more aggressive than Reagan was with the Soviet Union: You remember President Reagans line about the Soviets: Trust but verify? My approach will be distrust and verify. She also explicitly threatened Iran with war if they fail to comply: I will not hesitate to take military action if Iran attempts to obtain a nuclear weapon, and I will set up my successor to be able to credibly make the same pledge. She even depicted the Iran Deal as making a future war with Iran easier and more powerful:
Should it become necessary in the future having exhausted peaceful alternatives to turn to military force, we will have preserved and in some cases enhanced our capacity to act. And because we have proven our commitment to diplomacy first, the world will more likely join us.
https://theintercept.com/2015/09/09/hillary-clinton-goes-militaristic-hawkish-think-tank-gives-militaristic-hawkish-speech/
Clinton is a shrill, two-faced war monger, who would not dare to repeat that Bush-era falsehood standing next to Sanders and O'Malley at a public debate.
Perhaps, after living through the Iraq war days, you feel this sort of thing doesn't really affect you. In that case it sounds like a very good place to be...
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)If Sanders is the nominee there will be all kinds of stuff flung at him as well. We will all have to work to defeat it, and make sure the lies the republicans spread don't stick.
cprise
(8,445 posts)about Clinton are lies?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I just said we better be ready to fight if we want to win this thing. For all our candidates, taking it lying down on the mat isn't an option.
cprise
(8,445 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)We better find a new candidate for all of us.
cprise
(8,445 posts)pushes falsehoods as a pretext for war.
At least in the case of Afghanistan there was Al Queda and it was a case of the US itself having been already attacked. As Bernie said, he is anti-war but not a pacifist.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Including Hillary Clinton.
cprise
(8,445 posts)Response to Agschmid (Reply #162)
Post removed
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Don't know why you won't believe me.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)That's a scream!!
Do you have proof of this persons posts and thoughts? We'll wait for you to fire up your stalk-o-matic 3000 that makes up "the list" of people on DU that don't meet the approval of the Bernie camp.
Thank you.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I know where I stand, and how I got there.
And today I stand with Hillary.
merrily
(45,251 posts)board as they got posted over time, same way you saw my posts on this thread. Also discussed it with Agschmid on the board.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)And sort of in charge at first. ??
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Yet I still supported Bernie.
Clearly it wasn't about that for me.
bvf
(6,604 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I had nothing to do with it. That all happened while my computer was being repaired.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)is that I have not seen them post in support of Bernie. I wanted to verify my thoughts on this...and when I searched here with last month option most of the posts had been self-deleted. So I am really confused.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)the narrative does not fit the reality .
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)...in the Clinton campaign. It's barely tolerable anymore.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)You mean posted the poll which helped get Autumn elected lead mod then sure...
Or maybe you mean wrote the draft SOP for the group which is still being used today...
Or maybe you mean helped with the media posts and wrote the text so it could be easily replaced by the person who wanted to post those...
Then sure, that's me taking charge. Guilty as charged.
merrily
(45,251 posts)speak for themselves. I stand by reply 12. Heck you even tried to control after you were blocked.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Is an implication I lied.
Something I didn't do. But again we aren't going to get anywhere with this, so I'm comfortable dropping it if you are?
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)It's an honest question because I don't ever remember you being in support of Bernie.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)But it's hard to quit DU.
I only deleted a few weeks worth, I got tired/bored of doing it after that.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)I guess one never knows.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)eom
Puglover
(16,380 posts)I am simply gobsmacked.
merrily
(45,251 posts)finally made up their minds.
The only myteries for me:
What was the point of the pretense?
Whom did they think they were fooling?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Do you follow me personally on Twitter, or Instagram, or Facebook?
You don't.
I wasn't acting with pretense I was a voter who was excited by a new candidate who was bringing something different to the table. I've made a decision that I am okay with, I don't think I need to be called a liar repeatedly throughout the thread.
It's not productive.
merrily
(45,251 posts)behold, my opinion manifests.
You post an OP, you take your chances on what the replies are, just as does everyone else.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)aka Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction"
[url=https://flic.kr/p/z1DE6z][img][/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/z1DE6z]
chervilant
(8,267 posts)On Sun Oct 18, 2015, 10:21 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Beware of boiled bunny
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=699278
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Ok. This is over the top. He accused her of having a "stalkamatic" up thread . And is now accusing her of being a crazy stalker.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Oct 18, 2015, 10:32 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Among other things, the offending picture is way too big. Big time margin****.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is sexist and an inappropriate slam on Clinton supporters.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
I won't tell you which is my vote, but I will tell you that you are the newest member of my IL.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)"an inappropriate slam on Clinton supporters."
Ronny is a Clinton supporter and his post was a slam on a Bernie supporter. D'oh!
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)I did not need to read the text to know what the decision was.
And I don't know much about the poster except that I never believed for a minute that he would support Sanders.
There were lots of clues.
But the point of doing it is like child psychology...or herding people...if someone does it others will follow if they are insecure in their own ability to think for themselves.
I don't think it works well on DU.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Do y'all keep a record of people that are not up to approval?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)Every protected group has one...and if you stumble in there your name will be added.
I was reminded by a poster that I was on one of them...and the odd thing is they reminded me I was one of the first one added.
I could be on more than one, but I am careful now not to post to those groups.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Again it is what it is.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And you clearly want to lead.
But "is what it is" is an interesting meme. One that implies acceptance of things the way they are.
Imagine where we would be if we adopted that 40 years ago.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Because I don't control what people think or say about me, I only control my own actions. When it comes to politics and policies that certainly isn't my position.
Well, that is the beauty of this election. We are still free to choose.
Great, lets everyone vote for who they believe in!
merrily
(45,251 posts)I agree...completely.
Who didn't know that from the get-go?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Not sure why that's the popular go to here?
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)But I think you'll be very much at home with camp weathervane.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)throwing someone under the bus, sour grapes, and maybe even covering up a sense of betrayal. Regardless of the basis for these ugly responses, it's all a reflection of these Bernie supporters and not a reflection of the veracity of your words.
You have always been measured and honest in your responses. It is one of the reasons I've always had the utmost respect for you, even when you pronounced yourself a Bernie supporter.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)you'll need them here.
SunSeeker
(51,745 posts)Persondem
(1,936 posts)"Winning in 2016 is what matters!" and that Clinton has the best chance of winning the GE.
If Sanders is the nominee I will gladly, support, campaign and vote for him.
Response to Persondem (Reply #14)
NoHillary2016 Spam deleted by MIR Team
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)The non existent email one?
The manufactured republican one?
Or...?
classykaren
(769 posts)classykaren
(769 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And solid arguments can be made for each one. Your participation is impressive. I need to do more than I currently do.
NervousGuy
(26 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)Thank you in advance.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I'm on it, even though I stepped away.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)In the Announcements Group, then send a DU Mail to someone on the current MIRT team.
Sid
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Welcome aboard!
calimary
(81,527 posts)Glad to hear this, Agschmid! I know you put a lot of thought and study and observation into this. Thank you. And welcome to Team Hillary!
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Welcome aboard!
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)with respect.
Response to Agschmid (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Response to Agschmid (Reply #52)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Everything else is just a delusional fantasy.
I like both Sanders and Clinton, and although I might like them for their separate and unique strengths, I'm well grounded in reality. That's pragmatism, and true of almost everything we do in life. We are all trying to decide who will be able to improve our lives and give us the best shot at better future. Wishful thinking aside, people look to associate themselves with winners. In an election that means most of us will end up voting for the candidate who can actually get across the finish line and deliver the goods as promised, not the candidate that just makes us feel good.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)That's how we got in this fucking mess in the first place. If all that counts is 'winning' then we have already lost.
procon
(15,805 posts)Compared to that, yes, winning is the only thing that matters.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)I prefer Bernie's stance and record on all the issues.
It boils down to who can get the most people to the polls to vote in the General.
procon
(15,805 posts)And that is an enormous challenge for a candidate who maintains that he is not a Democrat and has separated himself from the establishment Democrats who make up the powerful bloc of superdelegates whose votes the winning nominee must secure to go on to compete in the general election.
That's the way the party system has been run for a long time. We allowed it. It needs to be changed, but that's not going to happen between now and the convention.
ejbr
(5,856 posts)as indeed, it is yours to make. However, I cringe when I read this : "And no my decision had nothing to do with anyone's supporters and everything to do with who I think can win this in 2016"
This seems to be the mantra of many Clinton supporters; not ideals, not principles, but who they believe can win. Given the state of the main stream media, I really can't blame you if that is your only criteria for voting.
Well, you and I can agree on pursuing a win for whichever Democrat gets the nomination.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Our candidates are pretty much aligned on most policies, yes there are some glaring differences on some... But not many.
So in some ways it does come down to who we think can win.
But like I said in the OP I will work for whoever I need to in the GE to ensure our party wins.
ejbr
(5,856 posts)And I respect yours as well.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)Now that is fucking funny!
You were about as committed to Sanders as MineralMan was, in other words, not at all.
You have defended her incessantly. You have knocked on Sanders supporters incessantly. It was so apparent to those who have watched you here in these boards that you were asked to resign as a Host of the Sanders group.
All I can do now is laugh.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I know my own story, I make my decisions and have keep it civil. I hope others will respect my decisions and I know some will, some won't.
As I said up thread...
It is what it is.
TM99
(8,352 posts)you have communicated your story all along.
The double messages were obvious to many even if they were not to yourself.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)I can't side with her big money and big power...I also do not trust her. She will change nothing, IF, she could get into office.
I am wholly convinced that she will lose in the general...Clinton dislike runs very, very deep and I think it's casually dismissed.
No more Bush and No more Clinton, in the White House.
Personally, I will also never, ever cast my ballot for her.
840high
(17,196 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)All the attacks you're getting for this... crazy!
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)Puglover
(16,380 posts)Series.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)$24.99?
OP of the month club?
A STEAL at 24.99!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Phew.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)I may have to renew my subscription now
bl968
(360 posts)I just love all these "Bernie Sanders" supporters so publicly step up and who throw their support to Hillary Clinton. You can't support one, and then suddenly throw your support to the other. It just don't work that way. The candidates views are mutually incompatible.
Clinton is a corporatist candidate who takes full advantage of the flaws in the system, and who will defend the system rather than trying to fix it. Clinton mouths support for fixing citizen united but will she really do it. If elected will she step up and take action to do so? The answer is no! These are the people who own her lock, stock, and barrel.
Citigroup Inc $824,402
Goldman Sachs $760,740
DLA Piper $700,530
JPMorgan Chase & Co $696,456
Morgan Stanley $636,564
EMILY's List $609,684
Time Warner $501,831
Skadden, Arps et al $469,290
University of California $417,327
Sullivan & Cromwell $369,150
Akin, Gump et al $364,478
Lehman Brothers $362,853
21st Century Fox $340,936
Cablevision Systems $336,613
Kirkland & Ellis $329,141
National Amusements Inc $328,312
Squire Patton Boggs $328,306
Greenberg Traurig LLP $327,890
Corning Inc $322,450
Credit Suisse Group $318,120
They have bought and paid for her. They have her heart, mind, and soul. They will be who she will listen to as president not every day people like you and me. We just can't compete with money like that.
Anyone who thinks First Lady Clinton is the woman who is running for office today is sadly mistaken. Do not expect her to be the champion of healthcare, do not expect her to go out of her way to do anything for the average Americans in this country unless she feels it will get her re-elected.
Bernie Sanders wants to fix our broken system, and restore the inherent fairness that has been slowly eroded away from it. He will fight every day to keep his promises. He has 30 years of consistency to prove it.
You can switch who you support, it's an election. This will happen a lot. And maybe you didn't watch the republican debate but our candidates are a whole other world compared to them... And are aligned on most major issues.
bl968
(360 posts)Lip service is something a candidate does to attempt to draw supporters from someone else by claiming to support the same issues they support. There was a ton of lip service in that debate. You have to look at their records for the real story. Clinton's record makes clear she is paying lip service, it also makes clear what she will do once in office.
I call BS on your conversion, and this thread specifically. For the reasons stated in my message that you totally ignored, and will state again for the record that candidates views are mutually incompatible and it is flatly not possible for someone who supports Bernie Sanders and his positions to suddenly switch and decided to support Clinton.
I suggest people give your recommendation all due consideration for all it's worth, which is absolutely nothing.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It is par for the course around here.
bl968
(360 posts)It's not personal, I simply stated my opinion that people should give the opinion stated in this thread the full value it deserves. Your post history makes one thing clear, you are, and always have been a Clinton supporter.
So when someone reads your message here and has not looked at your posts and believes that you decided to magically change your opinion. I want them to be aware of that fact, so they can do a little digging themselves and see for themselves.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)That's just not correct, I supported Bernie and have donated and volunteered with him. I've met him and even got to vote for him several times and he is a great politician who has helped raise important issues in this election. Again should be clinch the nomination I will do everything in my power to get him elected to the presidency.
Luckily I don't live or die based on what people think of me on DU.
Ron Green
(9,823 posts)This 2016 cycle is different from all others, including 2008. "Yes we can" turned out to be a slogan, and we are far beyond slogans now.
The candidacy of Bernie Sanders is different IN KIND, not degree, from that of Hillary Clinton. Your musings about working with this one and meeting with that one, as if to tell us you really "know" both candidates, are negated by the fact that you don't seem to understand how different is the democratic process Bernie is calling for. It's a different universe, and we may not be able to attain it. But for you, and others, and the media, to treat this contest in such a consumerist way shows that you don't understand the fundamental dynamic here.
By the way, although you don't live or die by what DUers think of you, our grandchildren will live or die by the outcome of this primary.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)This election is different, and it's a major one. Lots of things will be impacted by the outcome of the 2016 general election. No matter what I know our party will undoubtedly do a better job of handling most (if not all) issues. And I don't fault Obama, he was dealt a bad hand and actually did a whole lot of positive things while president.
And on some level we are both stuck with the decisions the votes of our grandparents made.
I also feel that your post if unfair, you agree I'm not a liar but then you continue on to assume I'm to naive to understand how my vote will effect the primary.
This has to stop.
Just because we don't agree it doesn't make me daft.
SunSeeker
(51,745 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sun Oct 18, 2015, 02:42 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
And again we get personal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=698177
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Posts like this provide no value to the community.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Oct 18, 2015, 02:59 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: bogus alert. Krytan11c, Bernie Supporter.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It does provide a value, it points out the truth! Getting personal seems to be a normal action on DU, from the Clinton/Sanders camps, the pro-gun/anti-gun, the theists and non-theists!
Personal attacks keep happening and will continue to happen as long as DU members fight amongst themselves...
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I find this alert without any merit whatsoever. People we need to get real. This is an opinion and no one should be alerted for their opinion.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I won't pretend I never get personal but it's usually pretty rare.
Cha
(297,799 posts)"personal". While the one who is rude and insulting gets a free pass.
Thanks to the jury you were on for voting down the bogus alert, SunSeeker.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Cha
(297,799 posts)board.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)From one #PreviousBernieBro to another.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)What has changed?
George II
(67,782 posts)William769
(55,148 posts)See you around the forums.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)I mean, who could have seen THAT coming?
I'm fucking shocked I tell ya!
SHOCKED I say.
SunSeeker
(51,745 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)leftofcool
(19,460 posts)BooScout
(10,406 posts)aspirant
(3,533 posts)you have finally found your real home
Best Wishes Aspirant
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I'm sure I'll see you around.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Thanks for working for both Sanders and Clinton. I respect that a lot. I love all the cool photos in your sig line. Hope you're enjoying a great weekend. Get out the vote!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)both Sanders and Clinton supporters that you encounter in person. May you form and strengthen bonds of activism & humanity.
aikoaiko
(34,185 posts)Clinton supporters will welcome you with open arms.
WIProgressive88
(314 posts)general election, but everyone has a right to make up his or her own mind, and I look forward to continuing to read your posts on DU. Cheers.
riversedge
(70,347 posts)Duval
(4,280 posts)raindaddy
(1,370 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 19, 2015, 12:07 AM - Edit history (1)
Clinton and Sanders represents a fork in the road when it comes to the Democratic Party. One represents the Neoliberal facton that has taken control of the party, pro Wall Street, pro global corporations, luke warm labor support, screw the middle class etc.. The other represents traditional FDR Democratic Party populist principals.
This is the last election I'm voting for a candidate that runs as progressive and then fills their administration full of Wall Street and corporate insiders, and transforms into a moderate republican within a couple of months of occupying the White House.
If yet another Democratic president continues down the road of third way politics, I'm joining the droves of people who have abandoned the party in the last thirty years.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)I'm an old Duer...and an old Democrat. You said it very well. You should have have seen the DU boards back in the 'the days'.....
It was a real Democratic board then.
The truth is....
We get real change this time, or it won't ever happen, and it will be the last election worth voting in.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)"We get real change this time, or it won't ever happen, and it will be the last election worth voting in."
It really does feel like that. If there was a slight window Bernie pried it open.
We're living in a country where the majority of it's citizens no longer believe either party represents their interests. Only 30% of Americans even identify with the Democratic Party and those numbers go down every year
How much longer can they continue to depend on progressives embracing another Reagan Democrat because anything is better than ultra right Republican whacko? Like Bernie is saying people are losing their faith in the system to represent their interests...
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Once in Boston, and twice in NH.
It's nice to be close to primary state.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)were you attending rallies with the masses or *salons*? Did you actually speak with her? What precisely convinced you to back her and not Sanders? (I haven't read through the thread again, you may have answered that...)
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Four if you count the NHDPC but I heard all the candidates speak there.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Welcome aboard, Agschmid!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I got a good deal on a trade-in the last time I changed mine.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It can take a few days to break in a new one.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Not sure why?
artislife
(9,497 posts)You how sometimes you have a friend who keeps going over a dilemma. They give all the pros and cons, all the plusses and minuses and aren't sure how they really feel.
And you sit back and listen to it a few times and wonder why they say they are still torn when it seems obvious to you.
I think this is the way it feels to me.
And yeah, those photos are way cool. I have to admire your love of art.
I hope that the person who follows President Obama cares deeply for this planet and fights hard for her and all the living creatures on her.
I think it should be Bernie, but that is obvious.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And again will do everything I can if he is the nominee to get him elected. Thanks for your words.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I just always assumed you were one.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It's really frustrating.
I supported a candidate, I volunteered and donated for that candidate. Hell I even voted for that candidate to get him where he is... Yet I repeatedly get called a liar.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)In that vein, please to enjoy Lyle Lovett changing his mind.
"After a lot of thought, I'd like to reconsider. Please, if it's not too late, make it a cheeseburger."
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)That I now support Hillary?
If that's your point I sure hope it's obvious, I wrote an entire OP about it.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Cool video however
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Don't leave home without it.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Oh my god. You are too much. What skin is it off your ass if someone doesn't support YOUR candidate? Jesus Helen Christ. I'm sorry I just don't get this bullshit around here. It's the same shit from 2008 and 2004. You don't support Obama in 2008? You're attacked. You don't support Dean in 2004? Go to hell.
GAWD. I left this place after President Obama was elected in 2008 and came back to see him being attacked for not being "perfect" and people sat on their asses in 2010 and gave us the GOP congress. Came back in 2012 to support my President for re-election.
Now in 2015 ..... the same people are throwing the same shit towards Hillary supporters like it was 2008 all over again.
Hey Dionne ... sing it for us:
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)You don't support Obama in 2008? You're attacked.
You don't support Dean in 2004? Go to hell.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I've been called it a few times today.
And I'm not going to give it a pass, it's just not true. And it's not a term that represents my actions in any way.
I'm going to stick up for myself here.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I've made my point here.
Have a good night.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Typical.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)eom
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)And "alerting" is total bullshit. Everyday it gets worse here in BU. I know I have to watch my step since I'm on "watch". But I'm not putting up with this shit anymore.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)You do such a great job promoting your candidate with your charm.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Playing the victim card is emblematic of the candidate you support. And it plays right into the "Bernie supporters are so mean" meme many Clinton supporters have been promoting here even if it's made up, and it usually is, out of thin air.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)My Godzilla. Please, "victim card"? REAL Bernie supporters are not "mean". Just the vocal ones here. Go look around. Pro-Hillary posts are attacked by these so called supporters of Sen. Sanders. Thank Buddha his supporters outside of here are not such jerks.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Why do you give shit?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=699610
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Poster is calling Sanders supporters here jerks and not real supporters. That's a pretty nasty personal attack.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Oct 18, 2015, 11:51 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: enough with the victim card bullshit- y'all sound like Freepers with that bullshit. you're embarrassing Sanders again.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Just the vocal ones here"
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: An obvious call out to supporters of a candidate he/she doesn't support.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I don't feel repressed, if I did I certainly wouldn't have made the statement that I support Hillary Clinton for President.
As I've said up thread several times, it is what it is.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)People have expressed, as I did, that they've always taken you for a Clinton supporter based on your posting history.
That's it, the sum total of the so-called "egregious attack" on you.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)That certainly indicates they thought I was lying about it.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)take it as badge of pride.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I'm not hiding anything, I supported Bernie (and I still will especially if he is the nominee) but I have now decided to vote for Hillary in the primary. I agree my posts do show a history, and that history is support of Bernie, excitement about him running... and yes now they will show support for Hillary as a I announced in the OP.
No big surprises there.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Stalk much?
okasha
(11,573 posts)goes to crowd who are demanding that the President, no, less, intervene to declare Sanders the winner of Tuesday's debate.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)you know ..
demmiblue
(36,903 posts)boston bean
(36,224 posts)Their perfection and claims of being the best of the best of the best moral persons in the world will come to a screeching halt when linked to a thread like this.
The Steven Leser threads would put those moral claims to bed, also.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)This shit thrown is epic. And the stalking of 'I've seen your posts' are down right creepy.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)I bookmarked a whole board with almost nothing but personal attacks on Bernie, his supporters and DU as a whole in some cases.
Here's an example:
Post by boston » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:51 pm
Give me a B. Give me an S.
What do you got?
BS
What does it mean?
Bull Shit
Give me a D
Give me a U
What do you got?
DU
What does it mean?
Deluded Untruth
Put em together
BSDU
What do you get?
Bull Shit Deluded Untruth
BSDU
BSDU
This post can't be seen with the direct link anymore. (It's at the Pub!). However:
http://web.archive.org/web/20150924083441/http://hillaryclintonsupporters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=480
boston bean
(36,224 posts)I find it creepy.
That post was nothing like the personal attacks on a member here. I'd write it again. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I spoke the truth in generalized terms.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Stalking? I took screenshots and archived many pages of that hateful site without taking the names of the posters into account. The content of the threads was the motivation. You just happened to be one of many people who posted "interesting" stuff directed at DU, DUers and Bernie. Nice to know that you're not ashamed of calling Bernie Sanders "BullShit" and DU "Deluded Untruth".
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Can you please google my screen name? I had a recipe for Chili Rice that I lost.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)boston bean
(36,224 posts)me. Taking screenshots. Linking to archived sites. Following posters around the Internet. Concerning, creepy behavior if you ask me. In other words I don't find it flattering at all. Other things yes.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Good bye now.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 20, 2015, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)
and Bernie and then still coming here and posting as if you're not participating in a cesspool of filth elsewhere where you post vile posts about the people you are interacting with on here.
And then, after you know very well that the contents of that hate filled site were posted here over a weekend after someone visited that vile site, calling people who reference that documented proof "creepy stalkers"
That's not only creepy it's bizarre. Why you guys continue to post here when you hate it so much is just plain crazy. And how you think you'll still get any respect from anyone whose seen the posts filled with hatred, claims of alert stalking on here and claims of having your own juries on here is what is "concerning".
I wonder how many threads are in the "Issues" forum now?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Creepy in the extreme.
Some of these folks have shown a propensity to stalk and dig around the internet for personal info. What happened to bravenak should give everyone pause.
Hoarding screenshots, stalking FB pages, Twitter feeds, and chasing DU'ers all over the damn internet is creepy beyond belief.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Have a nice day.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Welcome back!
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Only difference, this one has a designated target.
Seriously, pick any thread.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)eom
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)when a poster did the opposite than you (Hillary to Bernie) there was a ticker tape parade provided by the Bernie supporters.
Yet you are getting attacked and stalkers post your previous posts.
So common around here these days.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)eom
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)joshcryer
(62,277 posts)They just use Sanders for their own hateful attacks. I have put so many on ignore it's ridiculous. I'm sure I'm on some of those "suppprters'" list because I'm above attacking people.
Sanders "supporters" bashing BLM was when I realized they really don't care about his candidacy beyond internet advocacy. Most odd those "supporters" are actually setting Sanders up for failure.
I support Sanders because he's above the attacks.
ronnykmarshall
(35,356 posts)Bernie showed these so called "supporters" what's it all about at the debate. I respect and admire Bernie. He's not my choice for the nomination .... just like Barack wasn't my primary choice in 2008 ..... and god did I take SHIT for that. But I'll be damned if Hillary doesn't get the nomination I won't support Bernie.
What really pissed me off in 2008 was the fucking PUMA assholes. And now I see not only here but on various forums #BERNIEORBUST. These assholes would rather take Hillary down and let a republican win. Total fucking bullshit.
JI7
(89,279 posts)you will see they were posting the same things. they equate support for Sanders as hating Clinton or someone else rather than anything to do with Sanders himself.
joshcryer
(62,277 posts)...if Sanders loses the nomination any Sanders supporter who goes on to support the nominee will be trashed.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It's a bad reason.
sheshe2
(83,953 posts)I know this. I am sorry you are being treated so poorly in this thread, yet you weather it well.
Bernie's loss is our gain.
Welcome.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I know who I supported at first, I know who I now support.
And I'll say it again.
It is what it is.
And I will certainly work for the nominee to get them elected whether that be Bernie, Hillary, or even Biden. This election is important, and we have to do everything we can to make sure we win, and that we do our best to change the senate back to democratic control.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)Not only are we big D Democrats but we are little d democrats as well...
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)dared to choose Hillary Clinton as their candidate would be funny if it wasn't so disturbing. Some of you need to get a grip.
sheshe2
(83,953 posts)is startling.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)NOT breaking up too big to fail banks? Refusing to reinstate Glass Steagal? Or maybe because she is for Monsanto being able to avoid labelling GMOs? Perhaps because she supports fracking? Or maybe you like her warhawk stance on Iran?
If so, why exactly are you a Democrat?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)In fact I stand with most of our candidates and most of their policy positions, you ask me why I am even a Democrat? Let me tell you why I am a Democrat, and why I am proud to be one and to support whomever gets the nomination...
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-top-10-republican-candidates-in-order-of-crazy--WJeu_SCogNx
Maybe that will help you understand why I am a democrat, and proud to be one.
If that doesn't I can't help you.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Class will survive another Clinton presidency. The Third Way, DLCers have turned the Democratic party into moderate Republicans. Very pro Business, with a splash of social policies to sweeten the pain. I respect your decision, but I believe Bernie is far closer to what we need in this country, escpecially since I fully expect Hillary to turn away from the progressive policies she is being forced to embrace in order to gain the nomination if she is elected.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)However I will absolutely work to get the nominee elected if it isn't her. And it's certainly a "win" when you compare it to a potential Ben Carson presidency.
senz
(11,945 posts)and let us not forget, as the Supreme Court and Mit Romney explained, "Corporations are people too, my friend."
They just luuvv Hillary!!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)That's my kind of win.
Response to Agschmid (Reply #241)
Name removed Message auto-removed
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I just hope it's for an honest reason, because one day you'll look back and have to account to yourself and your conscience for doing what you do now, and the repercussions it has for your children, other's children, the world, the planet, and every creature and species on it.
Yes, we are, each of us, one being on a planet populated with billions like us, but you start with the man in the mirror.
Anyway, have a great week.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And IMO I'm doing it for the right reason, it didn't come easy and I actually spent time volunteering with both campaigns to get to my final decision.
Have a good week as well.
shivors
(18 posts)These "People" also threw their support behind Hillary. I am sure Hillary will fight Wall Street and the status quo. No doubt the interests of the middle class will be what she will work for and not these huge donors....right?
Citigroup Inc $824,402
Goldman Sachs $760,740
DLA Piper $700,530
JPMorgan Chase & Co $696,456
Morgan Stanley $636,564
EMILY's List $609,684
Time Warner $501,831
Skadden, Arps et al $469,290
University of California $417,327
Sullivan & Cromwell $369,150
Akin, Gump et al $364,478
Lehman Brothers $362,853
21st Century Fox $340,936
Cablevision Systems $336,613
Kirkland & Ellis $329,141
National Amusements Inc $328,312
Squire Patton Boggs $328,306
Greenberg Traurig LLP $327,890
Corning Inc $322,450
Credit Suisse Group $318,120
J/K...we know she is a shill. Focus groups decide her views and money buys her opinions. #justanotherpolitician
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)On Mon Oct 19, 2015, 01:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
In good company
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=701458
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Calling a democrat a shill and falsely misrepresenting individual donations by people as donations by companies is a right wing tactic. Can we stop calling an almost life long democrat a shill, it's not productive and is disruptive.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Oct 19, 2015, 01:08 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Hillary is not the nominee. When/if she becomes the nominee, I will vote always to hide the shill comments (even if I secretly agree with the poster). Sorry, but people don't have to be forced to be nice about all nominees before the convention. Look what we were saying about Joe Lieberman 10 years ago. Suggest you avoid the Primary forum like the rest of us sane folk.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts.
If you can't stand the heat...
This is just an opinion. If the alerter doesn't like it, then make an argument against it instead of trying to censor it.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter and suggest MIRT may want to check the poster
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: no we cant stop
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.