I don't like socialism.

[lostnfound]

I don't like socialism...not as a wholesale replacement for a freedom-loving, individualistic, independent-minded resilient entrepreneurial society that prizes self-sufficiency and homegrown community-based solutions to community problems.

But socialism as a safety net and as a softener for the harder edges of our advanced but feudalistic economy? Absolutely needed. If the "casino capitalists" hadn't run amok for so long, their greed and power untempered by legitimate public dialogue, if they weren't buying up every last piece of our government and our commons, rewriting the rules of the baseball game in favor of one or two players, it wouldn't be so necessary. Dear Koch brothers: Your family has $900 Million to put into the 2016 election? Really? Well, isn't that special. In our "advanced society", the thing that is most advanced is the set of techniques used to rip off the working class and middle class. Such as: people losing their pensions (either through changes in the law robbing them of money they were promised, or corruption by politician-connected investments like Bob Noe's gold coins, or PG&E's victimization by Enron), the selloff of public utilities and the privatization of every government institution that someone could make a buck off of, the pump and dump schemes and insider trading in a rigged stock market, all contributing to the constant upward distribution of money until 40% of American children are living in poverty, and therefore are living with constant stress and diminished opportunities.

Have you no sense of decency, Sir?

Every problem contains the seeds of its own solution. The bailout of the banks; the continuous wealth concentration in the hands of a handful of billionaires, while poverty and desperation are sucking the life out of the majority of the former middle-class; the wasting of trillions of dollars in unnecessary wars sold to us on a pack of lies over the objections of the majority of the American people -- if the country hires a "socialist" for the top job, today's corporatocracy brought it on themselves.

[mmonk]

1. Nice post. It gets to the heart of the matter.

[Vinca]

2. Large aspects of our country are already "socialist," but the dimmer bulbs

hear "socialist" and they think "communist" and that's why Bernie has an uphill battle explaining it. Maybe he should be adding the information that the military, Social Security, Medicare, the Interstate highway system and a number of other large programs or institutions are "socialized." When citing Denmark, he should elaborate that their young people are not in college debt up to their eyeballs and their citizens all get health care, no question asked.

[cantbeserious]

3. Then You Clearly Prefer To Be Owned And Controlled By Corporations

eom

[lostnfound]

4. Oscar Wilde has great quotes.

Break up the banks.
Too big to fail, too big to jail = too big to exist.

On edit- bottom line, I prefer a mixed economy AND regulations to curb excesses of corporate behavior.

[cantbeserious]

5. The Banks Are Only The Tip Of A Much Larger Corporate Problem That Needs Addressing

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. We have a mixed economy

These terms are amorphous and need to be distilled when we use them to make any sense at all.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

7. In what magic land does American capitalism prize homegrown community-based solutions?

For my entire life, I've watched local homegrown community-based enterprises get crushed by absentee landlord corporations. Local 'Mom and Pop's driven out of business by corporate franchises or chains who can undersell based on bulk purchasing discounts. The only new ones that come along and survive for any length of time are those who find a niche the corporate behemoths haven't wriggled their tentacles into. And when that happens, they get destroyed too. Capitalism is not any sort of bluebird of happiness-approved wonderful thing. It's entirely predicated upon exploitation. Either the exploitation of other humans, the exploitation of the environment, or the exploitation of the customer. Wealth accrues and is concentrated as a byproduct of ignoring environmental costs and damages, of spending less on labour then the wealth they create, and/or of charging the customer more than a product is worth.

Capitalism has no sense of decency.

[lostnfound]

24. All valid points.

I didn't actually use the word capitalism, did I?
Entrepreneurial.
The Divine Right of Capital was a fascinating look into capitalism essentially being another form of feudalism. And I agree with you on the exploitation aspects.

How to create more ways of making a decent, sustainable living, without having so many of us subservient to powerful, gigantic corporations. A decentralized economy has appeal for a lot of reasons.

[TBF]

8. This sounds like a republican campaign ad:

"freedom-loving, individualistic, independent-minded resilient entrepreneurial society that prizes self-sufficiency and homegrown community-based solutions to community problems"

[octoberlib]

17. It's pull yourself up by your bootstraps

Libertarianism.

[lostnfound]

23. I know that. I was intentionally capturing the nebulous values that influence people to reject "socialism"

I am not libertarian. Taken separately, most of those purported "libertarian" values are things we all appreciate. Piled together, they add up to selling libertarianism to the public.

But Bernie (and we Bernie supporters) need to find better ways to answer questions about his "socialism". The media is going to use it to tear him down, when he begins to triumph. His concrete economic ideas are VERY appealing, but his answer to "do you believe in capitalism?" is going to be an Achilles heel. It's not as if Bernie is going to replace the whole economy with a wholly socialist one...but massive numbers of potential voters will be scared away by fear-mongering attack ads that will inevitably portray his "socialist" ideas as unamerican and extreme.


Off topic, sort of:

Holy crap. They are reporting now that half of campaign money comes from 158 families. Classic data point that every single citizen ought to know.

[lostnfound]

19. That was kind of the point.

The point is, that I understand the dreams that people who fear socialist solutions are clinging to.
I understand their desire to not be dependent upon, or too trusting of, a giant government establishment that purports to provide the necessities of life. Often, when we liberals create a social program, the right wing takes over and twists it into an excuse for controlling people's personal lives -- drug testing welfare recipients or inspecting their bedroom bureaus for signs that a man might be living there, or making recipients of student loans sign loyalty pledges.

The billionaire-funded lobbying groups have actually prevented or destroyed numerous community-based solutions -- for example, getting bills passed that stop communities from setting up free or low cost Internet for their citizens.

States and cities *could* be serving as testing grounds for good liberal ideas to address basic human needs -- but AstroTurf groups, Citizens United money, the overwhelming legal and financial power of multinationals and, in the future, the long arm of free trade agreements have made state and local politics either corrupt or impotent.

A person with normal intelligence and normal work habits ought to be able to easily make a comfortable living in the U.S. Of the 21st century, and ought to be able to make a great living if willing to work hard, get educated, etc. A small segment of the public will always need extra help -- people who were born or raised with extra burdens or challenges.

But today we are in need of large-scale social programs, precisely because ordinary workers have been ripped off so badly for so long. The middle class / working class should have thrived during the last few decades of economic growth and technology enhancements. They HAVEN't thrived, for the reasons I mentioned, and thus, we are left with a need for a MASSIVE social safety net, because large numbers have been robbed and indebted unnecessarily.

[AOR]

22. Workers will always be ripped off as long as captalism exists...

theft of labor is the foundation of capitalism.

[lostnfound]

25. Worker-owned enterprises.

Co-ops can operate within a mixed economy. Supporting and encouraging this form of economic unit would theoretically improve the outcomes for workers.

[TBF]

26. They can but the results are normally not so good -

and it's not because of socialism. Marx actually addressed a century ago. We are in a pre-socialist world (and really a pre-democratic society - "dreams" about what people would like are often very different than the reality they live in) and making these things work in a global capitalist economy is going to be difficult. I give Bernie kudos for trying because a non-violent transition would be preferable ... whether it can actually work is another story.

The transformation, through the division of labour, of personal powers (relationships) into material powers, cannot be dispelled by dismissing the general idea of it from one's mind, but can only be abolished by the individuals again subjecting these material powers to themselves and abolishing the division of labour. This is not possible without the community. Only in community [with others has each] individual the means of cultivating his gifts in all directions; only in the community, therefore, is personal freedom possible. In the previous substitutes for the community, in the State, etc. personal freedom has existed only for the individuals who developed within the relationships of the ruling class, and only insofar as they were individuals of this class. The illusory community, in which individuals have up till now combined, always took on an independent existence in relation to them, and was at the same time, since it was the combination of one class over against another, not only a completely illusory community, but a new fetter as well. In a real community the individuals obtain their freedom in and through their association. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01d.htm

[AOR]

30. +2

[AOR]

31. I'm not necessarily knocking the idea...

but to expand a bit on what TBF posted... the question is how do you defend any gains while the capitalist vultures are circling the drains.

This is something that Richard Wolff speaks on all the time but to what actual result can this be implemented. Without a complete change in the power structure and control of the commons that serves at the alter of capital rather than the workers and people as a WHOLE...there really isn't going to be any "mixture of Socialism and Capitalism" that doesn't leave the Socialism part of it in the dust and "those other" workers impoverished in the long run. Workers Cooperatives for how many workers ? What about the rest ? Will their exploitation end while the Workers Cooperatives are negotiating with the capitalists for their little space of "Socialism" in the mixed system?

A decent read on this. It's a Marxist blog so take it or leave it depending on your preference but it's an interesting read and covers the problems with the Mondragon co-ops that many promote as an example of the success workers co-ops.

Cooperatives: A Cure for Capitalism?

http://zzs-blg.blogspot.com/2014/01/cooperatives-cure-for-capitalism.html

[TBF]

32. ...

[AOR]

21. +1

[LWolf]

9. I'm not sure if I "like" socialism.

I know I don't like capitalism.

I'm not sure that either are the system that best serves us, by themselves.

I know that I want the people who are doing the actual work to make/have a prosperous, healthy living.

I know that I want the people who, for whatever reason, can't work, to have the same.

I know that I don't want the people who are "administrating," "leading," or whatever you want to call it to make more money than the people actually doing the job. Or, at least, not much more.

I know I'd like to see companies owned by workers, sharing profits.

I'd like to see more non-profit coops delivering goods and services.

I'd like every citizen to have the right to unionize, to have shelter, education, health care, food, clothing, and a job.

I know that I don't want any ceilings, glass or otherwise, to prevent people from furthering their education, owning a home, etc..

I know that I want our infrastructure: education, libraries, roads, sanitation, water, energy, public transportation, AND health care, to be fully public, free at point of service, and paid for by taxes.

I know that I want a vibrant, fully inclusive system of supports to make sure that poverty simply no longer exists.

[mmonk]

10. +1

[snagglepuss]

11. Well said. Terrific post. It really ought to be it's own thread.

[LWolf]

13. Thanks.

I'm not posting too many OPs at this point, since I'm gone 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week at this point; I'm not here to actually participate in responses much.

But I'll keep that in mind.

[lostnfound]

20. I totally agree with what you said.

100%.

[snagglepuss]

12. Spot on. K & R nt

[PowerToThePeople]

14. Capitalism will always lead to what we have today

It is cooked into the way capitalism functions.

I am anti-capitalist. Currently consider myself a socialist, but am open to other equitable economic ideas, equitable being the key word.

[tk2kewl]

15. I don't like candy corn

[jeff47]

16. What you describe is......democratic socialism.

Specifically this:

But socialism as a safety net and as a softener for the harder edges of our advanced but feudalistic economy? Absolutely needed.

Is a decent summation of what differentiates democratic socialism from "regular" socialism.

[panader0]

18. From DUer ErikJ: You might be a Socialist

DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » You might be a socialist




Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:59 PM

Star Member ErikJ (5,189 posts)





You might be a socialist


All these folks complaining that health care reform is socialistic got me to thinking. It occurs to me that:

You might be a socialist if you ever had to call the police.

You might be a socialist if you ever summoned the fire department.

You might be a socialist if you ever drove your car on a public street or walked on a public sidewalk.

You might be a socialist if you use a municipal sewer service.

You might be a socialist if you get your water from a public water system.

You might be a socialist if you get your electric power from a public utility district.

You might be a socialist if you ever use a public library.

You might be a socialist if you have ever or plan to ever accept a social security check.

You might be a socialist if you use or plan to use Medicare or Medicaid.

You might be a socialist if you or your children attended public school.

You might be a socialist if you ever ride public transit.

You might be a socialist if your bank account is insured by the FDIC.

You might be a socialist if your or a member of your family went to college on a government subsidized student loan.

You might be a socialist if you ever took a trip on AMTRAK.

You might be a socialist if you ever needed the services of a fire department ambulance and EMT.

You might be a socialist if you have sent or received mail via the US Post Office.

You might be a socialist if you were ever represented in a legal matter by a public defender.

You might be a socialist if you ever referred a child to a child welfare office for protection.

You might be a socialist if you ever used electric power produced by Federally built dams.

You might be a socialist if you ever filed suit in a Federal, County, or City court.

You might be a socialist if you ever used a Federal, state, or city park.

You might be a socialist if you have ever used a public swimming pool.

You might be a socialist if you ever sought the help of a government official in solving a problem.

You might be a socialist if you ever benefited from the government regulation of private business.

You might be a socialist if you have benefited from the services of the CDC, FAA, FTSB, or other government agency.

You might be a socialist if your rights and safety have ever been defended by the armed forces.

You might be a socialist if you or a family member has ever been rescued by the Coast Guard or National Guard.

You might be a socialist if an airplane you flew on was guided to a safe landing by an air traffic controller.

You might be a socialist if felons in your area are placed in prison and the criminally insane in asylums.

You might be a socialist if you use the internet, a system developed originally by the U.S. military and scientific groups.

You might be a socialist if you have benefited in any way from research conducted by public universities.

You might be a socialist if you or any of your family have attended a public university or community college.

You might be a socialist if local public employees have cleared your streets of snow, picked up your litter, repaired potholes, or
any of hundreds of other necessary tasks.

You might be a socialist if a local municipal garbage service has carried off your trash and your recyclables

You might be a socialist if state or local forestry workers have fought forest fires and maintained healthy forests in your area.

You might be a socialist if state and federal fishery workers have tried to save endangered salmon so you can continue to eat
them.

You might be a socialist if you have been involved in a natural disaster and received help from a federal or state disaster relief
programs.

You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the passage of a law that requires or bans activities by your fellow citizens
which respectively benefit or harm you.

You might be a socialist if you own or work for any business that receives government subsidies or receives tax breaks for
locating in particular areas.

You might be a socialist if you attend your favorite pro team’s games in their partially tax funded parks, stadium, or arena.

You might be a socialist if you attend the games of a state college athletic team.

You might be a socialist if you invest in government securities like savings bonds or T bills.

You might be a socialist if you are a public employee.

You might be a socialist if you accepted the tax write off for buying a new home recently offered by the government.

You might be a socialist if you acquired a new car under the Cash for Clunkers program.

You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the document which begins: “We the people of the United States, in order to
form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United
States of America.”

In short, you might be a socialist if you accept any service, program, or benefit that is supported in whole or in part by tax
money.

I’m sure all those good folks protesting government programs like health care because they are socialistic will lead by example
and forswear using all of the above socialistic agenda items and any others that may have been omitted.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/myoregon/2009/09/you_might_be_a_socialist.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TexasBushwhacker]

27. Imagine if every school was for profit

Every hospital. How about a for profit military, police and fire departments and nothing but toll roads? The fact is, we have plenty of things that are socialist - Paid for based on ability and providing to based on need. We call the "public sector". That is an American name for Democratic Socialism.

[lostnfound]

34. Public sector and public infrastructure need a PR campaign of their own

They've become four letter words in America, thanks to the libertarian think tanks and Milton Friedman followers.
I was probably one of the last to get exposed to an old fashioned civics book that used those terms. I think kids today are trained to think of themselves as consumers.

Do your patriotic duty: Go out and shop.

[Oilwellian]

28. Excellent post

K&R

[Cheese Sandwich]

29. How ever you come it, it's ok, but, I use different words to describe things

Sometimes people share similar values but they use opposite words to describe them.

In my vocabulary, socialism would be a freedom-loving, individualistic, independent-minded, resilient society that prizes homegrown community-based solutions.

In my vocabulary capitalism is the society that threatens all those values we care about.

I took "entrepreneurial" out of the list because for me that's a little bit too much associated with private control of things that should be more democratic, or shouldn't exist at all. For example every hedge fund manager considers himself an entrepreneur. Pharma bro considers himself an entrepreneur. I avoid that word.

I also took self-sufficiency off the list because unless you live in a cave by yourself and eat squirrels, self-sufficiency is a myth. We call depend on the community to thrive.

[lostnfound]

33. Fair changes to make

I picked "entrepreneurial" on purpose to describe a kind of inventiveness that leads to electric cars or tablet computers or solar cells etc. without getting specific about a capitalist economic structure.
Personally I'm comfortable with the "social democrat" label that Bernie espouses but I do like small scale systems more than big ones, so the idea of a socialist government in a small country like Denmark is less threatening than for the entire U.S. Of course, I realize that what Bernie would accomplish would be a restoration or expansion of socialist programs for social security, medical and education needs; not actually socializing everything. Will less informed voters understand that distinction? How can we help inoculate the public against the coming attacks? The public equates "capitalism" with "democracy".

[Cheese Sandwich]

35. Innovation is good

It's probably a myth that those innovations you named really happened in the capitalist marketplace. So much advanced research in fields like computing and medicine is funded by the government through DoD or NIH grants and stuff like that. After technologies become commercially viable they tend to get privatized. In capitalism risks and costs are socialized while profits are privatized.

I scrounged up a couple videos relating to this.

I don't know how to inoculate. It's a tricky question.