2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe moment when Hillary Clinton won the first Democratic debate
This is the moment when Hillary Clinton won Tuesday nights Democratic debate: Im a progressive, she said, But Im a progressive who likes to get things done. Clinton went on to talk about how she has worked with Republicans to pass the Childrens Health Insurance Program, a bona-fide progressive victory. The message was: The way to advance progressive goals is not to toss off an ideologically satisfying wish-list of grandiose government programs and expect the country to suddenly fall into agreement, it is to admit that policymaking demands a sense of nuance and of the possible. Clinton made the case that she offers much more than political triangulation and an e-mail scandal. She argued that she offers thoughtfulness and competence and that this does not make her an ideological turncoat.
Im not taking a backseat to anyone on my values, my principles and the results that I get, she declared, before saying she would target additional federal spending at people who really need it rather than promising massive expansions of government programs in order to offer benefits to rich as well as poor. Bernie Sanders responded that he would radically raise taxes on the rich to pay for new universal entitlements, which cant justify poorly targeted programs and is beyond politically impossible.
For his part, Sanders displayed the same rhetorical flair hes shown all campaign. As usual, he identified several real challenges the country faces, passionately condemning income inequality, a corrupt campaign finance system, the continuing human contribution to climate change and overcrowded prisons, among other things. As usual, he did a poor job explaining why his sledgehammer democratic socialism is a smart or realistic response. He did once argue for nuance and realism in policymaking as he tried to explain away his checkered record on gun control. He will continue to be a major thorn in Clintons side, but he is beatable by a candidate whos willing to argue without apology that big problems require careful solutions, not simplistic ones, and tangible progress, not hopeless causes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/10/13/the-moment-when-hillary-clinton-won-the-first-democratic-debate/
jfern
(5,204 posts)thinks Hillary won the debate? Shocking!
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)... it might change my mind.
tecelote
(5,122 posts)Bernie busted out and won millions of new fans.
The game in on.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)OakCliffDem
(1,274 posts)Bernie Sanders has grass roots support Hillary Clinton could only wish for.
wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Please cite some resources that state that Sanders' supporters are "freeping" the polls. Thanks in advance.
wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)I guess the links I posted just got there all by themselves
TM99
(8,352 posts)Both show a list of a few polls and their results.
One has two replies. The other has seven.
Care to explain scientifically how this in any way shape or form proves your point?
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)that point to polls. They are not proof that these websites were "freeped." This is proof that people who support Bernie Sanders want the mainstream media to see it in their own web polls. I hope that Mrs. Secretary Clinton has her own version of this.
I also hope that in your research you found out that even Fox News' focus group found Sanders to be the winner. I suppose that they were "freeping" as well.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Saying no when asked if she had a response to somebody's boring email remark was one, so was her gun control answer. Sharp but not nasty. She was really ready this time.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bernie was, as usual, totally himself, spontaneous, and won.
The people spoke on the internet.
If there was a movement to organize the internet vote, I missed it and wasn't told.
If you watch the Foc polling group react, you know that Bernie won.
Sorry, but Bernie really did win.
The news media employees are just afraid to say so.
Keep-Left
(66 posts)I love Bernie but Hillary clearly won the debate. Wasn't even close.
He got killed on guns and said he wants America to be like Denmark. He has no chance of winning the general unless he runs against Trump. The GOP would be licking their chops to run against him.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)With the exception of guns, the debate was completely about Bernie's issues -- the issues he has been talking about, the issues he thinks are important. Hillary??? Even the issues of importance to her were discussed in Bernie's terminology, in Bernie's language.
And the moment when Bernie chastised the press about the "damned e-mails," Bernie took charge.
Every person on the stage was pivoting his/her statements to respond to Bernie's issues and Bernie's ideas.
Bernie dominated the entire debate. Even on gun issues.
Hillary was polished and had improved her game a lot since 2008, but she did not set the moral tone, hard as she tried to do that. Bernie did.
The other debaters with the exception of Chafee who seemed a bit awkward, were answering to Bernie's issues and Bernie's personality.
Hillary came off as a nice lady but giving canned answers. That's why the focus groups and the internet viewed Bernie as the winner.
Bernie was very much in charge. He came across as the leader on the stage.
Hillary came across as very polished. I think the press thought Hillary won because the press, those who write articles and especially those who appear or write for TV value polish and poise very much. They don't value quick thinking and spontaneity. So Hillary represented a good show in terms of their values -- carefully saying the right thing. Bernie, however, won in terms of what ordinary people value -- being real, being able to think on your feet,being a natural leader, bringing people together, having a strong ethical basis for your responses, embodying your values, AND MOST IMPORTANT -- CARING.
Bernie came across as the person who cared about others on the stage. That is an important character trait that Americans look for in a president. Bernie embodies it. Hillary -- although a woman and the stereotype of the motherly woman helps her in this regard -- does not project caring. She is more of an intellectual. She projects calculation.
Bernie just projects caring. Ordinary people grasp and grasped very quickly that what Bernie calls democratic socialism is simply caring about people, caring about Americans. That's why the whole argument about Bernie being a socialist actually ends up winning him voters, not losing him voters. And people look at him, how he acts, and they know what he means when he talks about "revolution." He is talking about people speaking up about their interests and taking part in government at the grass-roots level.
Bernie is the antithesis of an authoritarian personality and yet he is very strong. He has a rather unique combination of the traits of caring and helping and strength of character and leading. We haven't seen that in a presidential candidate since maybe Eisenhower. I think that Bernie will work very well with the military brass and be a good commander in chief. He has a natural flair for strategy. It's just part of his instincts. He sets priorities well, and he is decisive. Those are the traits that define a military leader.
Bill Clinton cared but did not have the strength of character that Bernie has. We saw on stage how Bernie brought the group together most vividly in the "damned e-mails" statement. That was strength. That was caring. It is because that statement, that protective statement, that taking care of the one who was being attacked unfairly was such a gut reaction for Bernie, that he will win the general election.
Two events of the night reflect what a naturally caring man Bernie is -- his comment about the damned e-mails with which he placed a protective shield around Hillary, and his assisting Andrea Mitchell AFTER THE DEBATE. Those were two of the moments in which Bernie's character, his caring, his humanness won. The Andrea Mitchell matter was not seen by most of the audience. But it is typical Bernie.
The members of the press have to eat. They write their articles for money and that means writing what they think their bosses want to hear. That's why they are writing that Hillary won the debate. She did well, but she did not win in terms of the big picture. She can't. She won't. It's not what she did or didn't say but her personality. She cares, but she doesn't really give herself up to caring. She always holds something back.. Ordinary viewers sense that. She is always defensive. Less so this year than in 2008, but Bernie is just so good at letting himself be vulnerable -- and always his vulnerability grows from his caring about others including the others who are debating him. He just has a magnanimous soul.
Magnanimous -- that's what it was about Bernie that made him and makes him always the winner.
In the hearts of Americans, Bernie won big. It's the job of those of us volunteering for Bernie to let people know that he can win and that they can vote for him without thinking they are voting for a loser.
The media and its corporate owners are terrified of Bernie. They don't need to be -- as long as they behave themselves and report honestly. I know it would take Bernie's revolution to ever get them to do that, but they may find themselves looking like fools if they maintain this Hillary fan club theme.
How do we know Bernie won? Because the American people were looking for Bernie -- Google searches prove that -- after and during the debate. Bernie won many, many new friends last night. Hillary -- not so much.
Florencenj2point0
(435 posts)you can't deny it with a straight face. Online polls are meaningless. People can "freep" them all night long. Plus Sanders arrogantly refused to prep. It was clear and I predict that next time he will prep and do mock debates.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Sanders wins by virtue of who he is -- his caring, his strength, the fact that he takes charge in the tough moments -- like when the question of the e-mails came up.
Like when he made the statement that Walls Street regulates Congress.
It's spontaneous and real. Hillary is over-prepared.
At one point in my life, I taught private piano lessons to children. When it came to recital time, we would always have at least one very conscientious student who could play it perfectly in rehearsal, got up on stage and got lost or had to start twice. Over-rehearsing. It's the result of a certain kind of anxiety about performance.
Bernie just lets it happen. We saw the real Bernie.
I have the feeling I have never seen the real Hillary and that she probably cannot reveal herself in front of the cameras or in a large crowd.
Bernie, on the other hand, has this ability -- magnanimity -- to focus on the needs of those around him and to forget about his discomfort. It's a personality thing. I doubt that Hillary can learn to be different in that respect.
Bernie just has a magnanimous soul, and it wins people to him. That is why he was successful as mayor of Burlington and that is why Vermont keeps re-electing him in spite of the fact that he has run against some very strong, wealthy opponents.
Hillary won't be able to match or surpass him in terms of relating to and winning over voters. It's just not in her.
Hillary would make a great Secretary of Health and Welfare. Really great. Or United Nations ambassador. She would leave a legacy for history in either post. As president -- no. She isn't that kind of leader.
Rose Siding
(32,623 posts)Great debate for her!
DCBob
(24,689 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)She's had to flip flop recently on so many issues to call herself a "progressive".
Bernie's been there for decades.
LittleGirl
(8,291 posts)and I liked her presence on stage tonight. It doesn't mean I'll vote for her (unless she beats Bernie) but she was very likable in this debate. I just wished they had extended the debate to cover issues like women's rights, private prisons and tax cheats. Why not give us 3 hrs like they did the GOP? And why not let them sit down? Anyway, I enjoyed watching it and was looking for more, give me more!
Boomer
(4,169 posts)I thought both Sanders and Clinton did well. I'm voting for Bernie, and there's nothing HRC can say that will change my mind at this point, but the debate made me a little bit easier about her as the nominee if she wins out over Sanders. I'd forgotten just how good she can be in front of the cameras.
As for the debate structure, please no, not 3 hours. I'm getting too old for long political sessions.
LittleGirl
(8,291 posts)is a bit long so my answer would be, MORE DEBATES!
Volaris
(10,274 posts)Open, loose, conversational, here's how you implement getting nationwide solar--no, do it this way instead, etc etc.
The GOP couldn't pull it off in their wettest of dreams--they don't have the minds for it.
As an aside fuck Jim Webb. I was cutting him a lot of slack until he said to bernie, 'that revolution you're looking for, it ain't going to come I hate to tell you...'
Well FUCK YOU TOO, JIMMIE, WE'LL JUST SEE ABOUT THAT WONT WE BITCH?!?!
LittleGirl
(8,291 posts)need any more stinking war hawks, sorry. I agree completely.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
ccinamon
(1,696 posts)Well put!
4dsc
(5,787 posts)She's not with the middle class but rather one of them.
Florencenj2point0
(435 posts)4dsc
(5,787 posts)I love to mention that because capitalism is failing the American people in the bottom 98%.
wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Hillary's "reach-across-the-isle" Congress is not Obama's "block everything" Congress.
So y'all think Hill would have done better than Obama with today's Congress? Republicans hate Hillary.
Bernie says it's going to take a political revolution. That's spot on!
Who exactly is deluded?
Hillary and her supporters, per usual.
Thread Death
BrainDrain
(244 posts)I'm Humpty Dumpty.....
As I have said all along..she is a corporate tool, and the ONLY reason she was FORCED to use the word progressive to incorrectly describe herself is because of Bernie and Elizabeth Warren. She is nowhere near either of those two politically or philosophically. She is out for HILLARY and no one else. She did well last night because she HAD to. Seriously. Think back a few months, HRC was "IT", now.....not so much. She seems top be losing Iowa and New Hampshire. So yeah, she had to do well last night so she wouldn't get blown away in the primaries.....again.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)If Hillary "won" it was on carefully scripted, dishonest, rhetoric.
Well said!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And carefully scripted, dishonest, rhetoric is their stock and traid...so it sounded good to them.
And the phrase that they say won it for her is telling...she is a progressive that gets things done, is a jab at progressives in a backhanded way implying that progressives don't get things done.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)It was designed to make Bernie look like an unrealistic dreamer and Hillary the champion of practical progressive goals, but ultimately it's intended to lower the expectations for achieving policy goals that are desperately needed.
Paving the way for more status quo DLC centrism.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)And she did no favors for real honest Progressives when she stated the only difference between her and other Progressives is that "she would get something done!" Seriously, when she said she was a Progressive, I choked on my Bloody Mary.
Florencenj2point0
(435 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)she knows every answer in the book..
Bernie is a rough gem, he is not a debater, he does not finesse things, he likes to roll up his sleeves and get things done. I hope he can pull this off.... if not, then I hope he can pull this woman more to the left, because she is NOT a progressive
Vinca
(50,312 posts)ccinamon
(1,696 posts)Just a few weeks/months ago she PROUDLY stated she is a "moderate"....now she is a "progressive"....
pandering to the easily fooled is more like it.
Vinca
(50,312 posts)deutsey
(20,166 posts)who tilts toward corporate/Wall Street interests.
I wholeheartedly support Sanders because his record and rhetoric demonstrate to me that he is a progressive. Not perfect, but definitely progressive.
However, I still prefer Hillary over any Republican and not voting is not an option for me, so if she gets the nomination I'll vote for her.
John Poet
(2,510 posts)I'll go with her "no apologies-- I'm a moderate" answer. It's more truthful anyway.
Why?
Because warmongers are NOT progressive.
Going to Wall Street and saying, "Stop it, guys!" instead of submitting a bill to reign in their thuggery isn't progressive either.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)from what I've seen rolled their eyes at that progressive comment of hers.
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)LOL.
Loki
(3,825 posts)I believe that in my party, you can be a progressive, a centrist, a populist/socialist or any other name you choose to identify with or call yourself. We work together, we work hard to solve our differences, but in the end, we stand for the people. The only value you need to be a Republican, is crazy. I would vote for anyone on that stage last night and I will work and support the person who wins the primary. To do anything else , means you are willing to throw our country into the abyss. The Republican Party now represents the profectic words of Abraham Lincoln, even though he was talking about the division of our country by slavery, the divisions in our country are becoming the playing cards of the other party and they will use them to stir the cauldron of hatred until it boils over. "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.".
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)a third Obama term with "vote for me because I'm a woman"....then went to that well twice more. Compelling.....
Gothmog
(145,627 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I think she, Sanders, and O'Malley all performed well.
As Democrats we are very lucky, and the debate showed further what a bunch of clowns the Republicans have running.
I'm still on the fence however.
Gman
(24,780 posts)There you go.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)one term in Senate verses several terms in the House AND Senate?
It seems a little one sided to me.
Gman
(24,780 posts)One can wish or aren't worth spit if you can't get them done
yodermon
(6,143 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Gamecock Lefty
(700 posts)Sometimes the best man for the job is a woman!!!
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Hillary didn't win anything
by falsely claiming to be 'progressive'.
She exposed herself as a pandering
politician without core values.
When CNN (Clinton News Network)
mocks your claims of being Progressive
you've lost credibility.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Even Chafee voted against it
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I know. I heard the last question, and I heard Clinton's answer. She immediately said, "Look at me, I'm a woman!" I guess that this is her hollywood casting call.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Rose Siding
(32,623 posts)Puglover
(16,380 posts)Dana Milbank. One BIG opinion on pretty much anything. One vote.