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wyldwolf

(43,870 posts)
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 05:38 AM Oct 2015

The moment when Hillary Clinton won the first Democratic debate

This is the moment when Hillary Clinton won Tuesday night’s Democratic debate: “I’m a progressive,” she said, “But I’m a progressive who likes to get things done.” Clinton went on to talk about how she has worked with Republicans to pass the Children’s Health Insurance Program, a bona-fide progressive victory. The message was: The way to advance progressive goals is not to toss off an ideologically satisfying wish-list of grandiose government programs and expect the country to suddenly fall into agreement, it is to admit that policymaking demands a sense of nuance and of the possible. Clinton made the case that she offers much more than political triangulation and an e-mail scandal. She argued that she offers thoughtfulness and competence — and that this does not make her an ideological turncoat.

“I’m not taking a backseat to anyone on my values, my principles and the results that I get,” she declared, before saying she would target additional federal spending at people who really need it rather than promising massive expansions of government programs in order to offer benefits to rich as well as poor. Bernie Sanders responded that he would radically raise taxes on the rich to pay for new universal entitlements, which can’t justify poorly targeted programs and is beyond politically impossible.

For his part, Sanders displayed the same rhetorical flair he’s shown all campaign. As usual, he identified several real challenges the country faces, passionately condemning income inequality, a “corrupt” campaign finance system, the continuing human contribution to climate change and overcrowded prisons, among other things. As usual, he did a poor job explaining why his sledgehammer “democratic socialism” is a smart or realistic response. He did — once — argue for nuance and realism in policymaking — as he tried to explain away his checkered record on gun control. He will continue to be a major thorn in Clinton’s side, but he is beatable by a candidate who’s willing to argue without apology that big problems require careful solutions, not simplistic ones, and tangible progress, not hopeless causes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/10/13/the-moment-when-hillary-clinton-won-the-first-democratic-debate/

72 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The moment when Hillary Clinton won the first Democratic debate (Original Post) wyldwolf Oct 2015 OP
The Washington Post who has a hit piece every few hours on Sanders jfern Oct 2015 #1
Want to buy a bridge? hobbit709 Oct 2015 #2
Will you do an online poll to influence my answer? wyldwolf Oct 2015 #7
Why bother, your mind is made up. hobbit709 Oct 2015 #9
but maybe if you get everyone on 'progressive' sites to vote in an online poll... wyldwolf Oct 2015 #11
Hillary was fantastic on stage and solidified her base. tecelote Oct 2015 #3
That's good. yardwork Oct 2015 #41
K&R! stonecutter357 Oct 2015 #4
Still waiting for that moment to arrive OakCliffDem Oct 2015 #5
... and they're out in force 'freeping' online polls wyldwolf Oct 2015 #8
Oh, and you know that for a fact RoccoR5955 Oct 2015 #12
You obviously aren't reading this thread wyldwolf Oct 2015 #14
You posted two links. TM99 Oct 2015 #37
No the links that you posted are from one website RoccoR5955 Oct 2015 #60
She had a few ucrdem Oct 2015 #6
Better than in previous debates, but she sounded canned, overrehearsed. JDPriestly Oct 2015 #27
are you serious? Keep-Left Oct 2015 #45
Bernie owned the debate. JDPriestly Oct 2015 #52
if you asked Bernie he would say she won Florencenj2point0 Oct 2015 #53
The focus groups, all of them, also voted that Sanders won. JDPriestly Oct 2015 #59
True but the progressive line was when I called it Rose Siding Oct 2015 #66
It was a good night for Hillary. DCBob Oct 2015 #10
“I’m a progressive,” she said left-of-center2012 Oct 2015 #13
Hillary did well LittleGirl Oct 2015 #15
Agree with your assessment Boomer Oct 2015 #18
yeah, 3 hrs LittleGirl Oct 2015 #44
A sitting round table would be an awesome format Volaris Oct 2015 #32
we don't LittleGirl Oct 2015 #43
HRC Started Life As A Republican - A Progressive In Her Dreams - Maybe - Pandering At Its Best cantbeserious Oct 2015 #16
+1 ccinamon Oct 2015 #23
She lost it when stating "I'm a capitalist" 4dsc Oct 2015 #17
99 percent of this country is capitalist Florencenj2point0 Oct 2015 #54
Capitalism is not a form of goverrnment 4dsc Nov 2015 #72
famous capitalist wyldwolf Oct 2015 #65
Great scoreboard points, but... WhaTHellsgoingonhere Oct 2015 #19
If HRC is a progressive.... BrainDrain Oct 2015 #20
+1 Martin Eden Oct 2015 #22
+1 ccinamon Oct 2015 #24
The media judges by their own standards. zeemike Oct 2015 #50
Yes, Hillary's "winning" talking point had some significant implications Martin Eden Oct 2015 #68
There isn't a Progressive bone in her body! ReRe Oct 2015 #33
you base your opinion on what fact? Florencenj2point0 Oct 2015 #55
let's face it, she's done this before, she has her talking points down perfectly, she is polished, secondwind Oct 2015 #39
Hillary is many things, but progressive isn't one of them. Vinca Oct 2015 #21
My feelings exactly! ccinamon Oct 2015 #26
She's been trying to out-Bernie Bernie. It's amusing. Vinca Oct 2015 #35
I don't see her as a progressive. She's a centrist, imo, deutsey Oct 2015 #42
Still waiting for that moment, because she didn't win it. John Poet Oct 2015 #25
+1 ccinamon Oct 2015 #28
most people retrowire Oct 2015 #29
Hopeless causes TransitJohn Oct 2015 #30
I have been a democrat all my life. Loki Oct 2015 #31
But she didn't, so this story is odd. Fawke Em Oct 2015 #34
I thought it was when she answered the question about how a Clinton Presidency wouldn't be Indepatriot Oct 2015 #36
That was a great line By HRC Gothmog Oct 2015 #38
No, I don't think she won the debate at all. cwydro Oct 2015 #40
A progressive who likes to get things done Gman Oct 2015 #46
What was gotten done in RoccoR5955 Oct 2015 #61
All the wonderful idealistic dogmatic goals Gman Oct 2015 #70
She would never, EVER say "I'm a progressive" if Bernie wasn't in the race. Nt yodermon Oct 2015 #47
Exactly. It went to the initial question- Do you say what you think people want to hear? EndElectoral Oct 2015 #57
Good Job, Hill!!! Gamecock Lefty Oct 2015 #48
Hillary flip flops on Moderate/Progressive Cosmic Kitten Oct 2015 #49
The moment never came. Clinton gave the best performance of her career and Sanders still won. TheKentuckian Oct 2015 #51
Correctomundo! n/t RoccoR5955 Oct 2015 #63
The moment she lost the debate - when she stood out there with the Iraq War vote on her record EndElectoral Oct 2015 #56
The looked like POTUS. If Hollywood were to cast Mme. President, she would be it. McCamy Taylor Oct 2015 #58
Why just Mme. President. RoccoR5955 Oct 2015 #64
Interesting. Puglover Oct 2015 #62
Here' another Rose Siding Oct 2015 #67
Oh golly. Puglover Oct 2015 #69
kick wyldwolf Oct 2015 #71

jfern

(5,204 posts)
1. The Washington Post who has a hit piece every few hours on Sanders
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 05:39 AM
Oct 2015

thinks Hillary won the debate? Shocking!

wyldwolf

(43,870 posts)
11. but maybe if you get everyone on 'progressive' sites to vote in an online poll...
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 06:13 AM
Oct 2015

... it might change my mind.

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
3. Hillary was fantastic on stage and solidified her base.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 05:50 AM
Oct 2015

Bernie busted out and won millions of new fans.

The game in on.

OakCliffDem

(1,274 posts)
5. Still waiting for that moment to arrive
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 05:58 AM
Oct 2015

Bernie Sanders has grass roots support Hillary Clinton could only wish for.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
12. Oh, and you know that for a fact
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 06:39 AM
Oct 2015

Please cite some resources that state that Sanders' supporters are "freeping" the polls. Thanks in advance.

wyldwolf

(43,870 posts)
14. You obviously aren't reading this thread
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 06:46 AM
Oct 2015

I guess the links I posted just got there all by themselves

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
37. You posted two links.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:51 AM
Oct 2015

Both show a list of a few polls and their results.

One has two replies. The other has seven.

Care to explain scientifically how this in any way shape or form proves your point?

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
60. No the links that you posted are from one website
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:36 AM
Oct 2015

that point to polls. They are not proof that these websites were "freeped." This is proof that people who support Bernie Sanders want the mainstream media to see it in their own web polls. I hope that Mrs. Secretary Clinton has her own version of this.
I also hope that in your research you found out that even Fox News' focus group found Sanders to be the winner. I suppose that they were "freeping" as well.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
6. She had a few
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 05:59 AM
Oct 2015

Saying no when asked if she had a response to somebody's boring email remark was one, so was her gun control answer. Sharp but not nasty. She was really ready this time.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. Better than in previous debates, but she sounded canned, overrehearsed.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:28 AM
Oct 2015

Bernie was, as usual, totally himself, spontaneous, and won.

The people spoke on the internet.

If there was a movement to organize the internet vote, I missed it and wasn't told.

If you watch the Foc polling group react, you know that Bernie won.

Sorry, but Bernie really did win.

The news media employees are just afraid to say so.

 

Keep-Left

(66 posts)
45. are you serious?
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:17 AM
Oct 2015

I love Bernie but Hillary clearly won the debate. Wasn't even close.

He got killed on guns and said he wants America to be like Denmark. He has no chance of winning the general unless he runs against Trump. The GOP would be licking their chops to run against him.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
52. Bernie owned the debate.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:47 AM
Oct 2015

With the exception of guns, the debate was completely about Bernie's issues -- the issues he has been talking about, the issues he thinks are important. Hillary??? Even the issues of importance to her were discussed in Bernie's terminology, in Bernie's language.

And the moment when Bernie chastised the press about the "damned e-mails," Bernie took charge.

Every person on the stage was pivoting his/her statements to respond to Bernie's issues and Bernie's ideas.

Bernie dominated the entire debate. Even on gun issues.

Hillary was polished and had improved her game a lot since 2008, but she did not set the moral tone, hard as she tried to do that. Bernie did.

The other debaters with the exception of Chafee who seemed a bit awkward, were answering to Bernie's issues and Bernie's personality.

Hillary came off as a nice lady but giving canned answers. That's why the focus groups and the internet viewed Bernie as the winner.

Bernie was very much in charge. He came across as the leader on the stage.

Hillary came across as very polished. I think the press thought Hillary won because the press, those who write articles and especially those who appear or write for TV value polish and poise very much. They don't value quick thinking and spontaneity. So Hillary represented a good show in terms of their values -- carefully saying the right thing. Bernie, however, won in terms of what ordinary people value -- being real, being able to think on your feet,being a natural leader, bringing people together, having a strong ethical basis for your responses, embodying your values, AND MOST IMPORTANT -- CARING.

Bernie came across as the person who cared about others on the stage. That is an important character trait that Americans look for in a president. Bernie embodies it. Hillary -- although a woman and the stereotype of the motherly woman helps her in this regard -- does not project caring. She is more of an intellectual. She projects calculation.

Bernie just projects caring. Ordinary people grasp and grasped very quickly that what Bernie calls democratic socialism is simply caring about people, caring about Americans. That's why the whole argument about Bernie being a socialist actually ends up winning him voters, not losing him voters. And people look at him, how he acts, and they know what he means when he talks about "revolution." He is talking about people speaking up about their interests and taking part in government at the grass-roots level.

Bernie is the antithesis of an authoritarian personality and yet he is very strong. He has a rather unique combination of the traits of caring and helping and strength of character and leading. We haven't seen that in a presidential candidate since maybe Eisenhower. I think that Bernie will work very well with the military brass and be a good commander in chief. He has a natural flair for strategy. It's just part of his instincts. He sets priorities well, and he is decisive. Those are the traits that define a military leader.

Bill Clinton cared but did not have the strength of character that Bernie has. We saw on stage how Bernie brought the group together most vividly in the "damned e-mails" statement. That was strength. That was caring. It is because that statement, that protective statement, that taking care of the one who was being attacked unfairly was such a gut reaction for Bernie, that he will win the general election.

Two events of the night reflect what a naturally caring man Bernie is -- his comment about the damned e-mails with which he placed a protective shield around Hillary, and his assisting Andrea Mitchell AFTER THE DEBATE. Those were two of the moments in which Bernie's character, his caring, his humanness won. The Andrea Mitchell matter was not seen by most of the audience. But it is typical Bernie.

The members of the press have to eat. They write their articles for money and that means writing what they think their bosses want to hear. That's why they are writing that Hillary won the debate. She did well, but she did not win in terms of the big picture. She can't. She won't. It's not what she did or didn't say but her personality. She cares, but she doesn't really give herself up to caring. She always holds something back.. Ordinary viewers sense that. She is always defensive. Less so this year than in 2008, but Bernie is just so good at letting himself be vulnerable -- and always his vulnerability grows from his caring about others including the others who are debating him. He just has a magnanimous soul.

Magnanimous -- that's what it was about Bernie that made him and makes him always the winner.

In the hearts of Americans, Bernie won big. It's the job of those of us volunteering for Bernie to let people know that he can win and that they can vote for him without thinking they are voting for a loser.

The media and its corporate owners are terrified of Bernie. They don't need to be -- as long as they behave themselves and report honestly. I know it would take Bernie's revolution to ever get them to do that, but they may find themselves looking like fools if they maintain this Hillary fan club theme.

How do we know Bernie won? Because the American people were looking for Bernie -- Google searches prove that -- after and during the debate. Bernie won many, many new friends last night. Hillary -- not so much.

Florencenj2point0

(435 posts)
53. if you asked Bernie he would say she won
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:08 AM
Oct 2015

you can't deny it with a straight face. Online polls are meaningless. People can "freep" them all night long. Plus Sanders arrogantly refused to prep. It was clear and I predict that next time he will prep and do mock debates.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
59. The focus groups, all of them, also voted that Sanders won.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:33 AM
Oct 2015

Sanders wins by virtue of who he is -- his caring, his strength, the fact that he takes charge in the tough moments -- like when the question of the e-mails came up.

Like when he made the statement that Walls Street regulates Congress.

It's spontaneous and real. Hillary is over-prepared.

At one point in my life, I taught private piano lessons to children. When it came to recital time, we would always have at least one very conscientious student who could play it perfectly in rehearsal, got up on stage and got lost or had to start twice. Over-rehearsing. It's the result of a certain kind of anxiety about performance.

Bernie just lets it happen. We saw the real Bernie.

I have the feeling I have never seen the real Hillary and that she probably cannot reveal herself in front of the cameras or in a large crowd.

Bernie, on the other hand, has this ability -- magnanimity -- to focus on the needs of those around him and to forget about his discomfort. It's a personality thing. I doubt that Hillary can learn to be different in that respect.

Bernie just has a magnanimous soul, and it wins people to him. That is why he was successful as mayor of Burlington and that is why Vermont keeps re-electing him in spite of the fact that he has run against some very strong, wealthy opponents.

Hillary won't be able to match or surpass him in terms of relating to and winning over voters. It's just not in her.

Hillary would make a great Secretary of Health and Welfare. Really great. Or United Nations ambassador. She would leave a legacy for history in either post. As president -- no. She isn't that kind of leader.

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
13. “I’m a progressive,” she said
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 06:41 AM
Oct 2015

She's had to flip flop recently on so many issues to call herself a "progressive".
Bernie's been there for decades.

LittleGirl

(8,291 posts)
15. Hillary did well
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 06:47 AM
Oct 2015

and I liked her presence on stage tonight. It doesn't mean I'll vote for her (unless she beats Bernie) but she was very likable in this debate. I just wished they had extended the debate to cover issues like women's rights, private prisons and tax cheats. Why not give us 3 hrs like they did the GOP? And why not let them sit down? Anyway, I enjoyed watching it and was looking for more, give me more!

Boomer

(4,169 posts)
18. Agree with your assessment
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:05 AM
Oct 2015

I thought both Sanders and Clinton did well. I'm voting for Bernie, and there's nothing HRC can say that will change my mind at this point, but the debate made me a little bit easier about her as the nominee if she wins out over Sanders. I'd forgotten just how good she can be in front of the cameras.

As for the debate structure, please no, not 3 hours. I'm getting too old for long political sessions.

Volaris

(10,274 posts)
32. A sitting round table would be an awesome format
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:39 AM
Oct 2015

Open, loose, conversational, here's how you implement getting nationwide solar--no, do it this way instead, etc etc.

The GOP couldn't pull it off in their wettest of dreams--they don't have the minds for it.

As an aside fuck Jim Webb. I was cutting him a lot of slack until he said to bernie, 'that revolution you're looking for, it ain't going to come I hate to tell you...'

Well FUCK YOU TOO, JIMMIE, WE'LL JUST SEE ABOUT THAT WONT WE BITCH?!?!

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
17. She lost it when stating "I'm a capitalist"
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:05 AM
Oct 2015

She's not with the middle class but rather one of them.

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
72. Capitalism is not a form of goverrnment
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:02 PM
Nov 2015

I love to mention that because capitalism is failing the American people in the bottom 98%.

 

WhaTHellsgoingonhere

(5,252 posts)
19. Great scoreboard points, but...
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:06 AM
Oct 2015

Hillary's "reach-across-the-isle" Congress is not Obama's "block everything" Congress.

So y'all think Hill would have done better than Obama with today's Congress? Republicans hate Hillary.

Bernie says it's going to take a political revolution. That's spot on!

Who exactly is deluded?

Hillary and her supporters, per usual.

Thread Death

 

BrainDrain

(244 posts)
20. If HRC is a progressive....
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:08 AM
Oct 2015

I'm Humpty Dumpty.....

As I have said all along..she is a corporate tool, and the ONLY reason she was FORCED to use the word progressive to incorrectly describe herself is because of Bernie and Elizabeth Warren. She is nowhere near either of those two politically or philosophically. She is out for HILLARY and no one else. She did well last night because she HAD to. Seriously. Think back a few months, HRC was "IT", now.....not so much. She seems top be losing Iowa and New Hampshire. So yeah, she had to do well last night so she wouldn't get blown away in the primaries.....again.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
50. The media judges by their own standards.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:35 AM
Oct 2015

And carefully scripted, dishonest, rhetoric is their stock and traid...so it sounded good to them.

And the phrase that they say won it for her is telling...she is a progressive that gets things done, is a jab at progressives in a backhanded way implying that progressives don't get things done.

Martin Eden

(12,875 posts)
68. Yes, Hillary's "winning" talking point had some significant implications
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 10:40 AM
Oct 2015

It was designed to make Bernie look like an unrealistic dreamer and Hillary the champion of practical progressive goals, but ultimately it's intended to lower the expectations for achieving policy goals that are desperately needed.

Paving the way for more status quo DLC centrism.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
33. There isn't a Progressive bone in her body!
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:43 AM
Oct 2015

And she did no favors for real honest Progressives when she stated the only difference between her and other Progressives is that "she would get something done!" Seriously, when she said she was a Progressive, I choked on my Bloody Mary.

secondwind

(16,903 posts)
39. let's face it, she's done this before, she has her talking points down perfectly, she is polished,
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:52 AM
Oct 2015

she knows every answer in the book..

Bernie is a rough gem, he is not a debater, he does not finesse things, he likes to roll up his sleeves and get things done. I hope he can pull this off.... if not, then I hope he can pull this woman more to the left, because she is NOT a progressive

ccinamon

(1,696 posts)
26. My feelings exactly!
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:27 AM
Oct 2015

Just a few weeks/months ago she PROUDLY stated she is a "moderate"....now she is a "progressive"....

pandering to the easily fooled is more like it.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
42. I don't see her as a progressive. She's a centrist, imo,
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:01 AM
Oct 2015

who tilts toward corporate/Wall Street interests.

I wholeheartedly support Sanders because his record and rhetoric demonstrate to me that he is a progressive. Not perfect, but definitely progressive.

However, I still prefer Hillary over any Republican and not voting is not an option for me, so if she gets the nomination I'll vote for her.

 

John Poet

(2,510 posts)
25. Still waiting for that moment, because she didn't win it.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:26 AM
Oct 2015

I'll go with her "no apologies-- I'm a moderate" answer. It's more truthful anyway.

Why?

Because warmongers are NOT progressive.

ccinamon

(1,696 posts)
28. +1
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:29 AM
Oct 2015

Going to Wall Street and saying, "Stop it, guys!" instead of submitting a bill to reign in their thuggery isn't progressive either.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
31. I have been a democrat all my life.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:38 AM
Oct 2015

I believe that in my party, you can be a progressive, a centrist, a populist/socialist or any other name you choose to identify with or call yourself. We work together, we work hard to solve our differences, but in the end, we stand for the people. The only value you need to be a Republican, is crazy. I would vote for anyone on that stage last night and I will work and support the person who wins the primary. To do anything else , means you are willing to throw our country into the abyss. The Republican Party now represents the profectic words of Abraham Lincoln, even though he was talking about the division of our country by slavery, the divisions in our country are becoming the playing cards of the other party and they will use them to stir the cauldron of hatred until it boils over. "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.".


 

Indepatriot

(1,253 posts)
36. I thought it was when she answered the question about how a Clinton Presidency wouldn't be
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:51 AM
Oct 2015

a third Obama term with "vote for me because I'm a woman"....then went to that well twice more. Compelling.....

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
40. No, I don't think she won the debate at all.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 07:58 AM
Oct 2015

I think she, Sanders, and O'Malley all performed well.

As Democrats we are very lucky, and the debate showed further what a bunch of clowns the Republicans have running.

I'm still on the fence however.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
61. What was gotten done in
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:37 AM
Oct 2015

one term in Senate verses several terms in the House AND Senate?
It seems a little one sided to me.

Gman

(24,780 posts)
70. All the wonderful idealistic dogmatic goals
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:51 PM
Oct 2015

One can wish or aren't worth spit if you can't get them done

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
49. Hillary flip flops on Moderate/Progressive
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:28 AM
Oct 2015

Hillary didn't win anything
by falsely claiming to be 'progressive'.

She exposed herself as a pandering
politician without core values.



When CNN (Clinton News Network)
mocks your claims of being Progressive
you've lost credibility.


EndElectoral

(4,213 posts)
56. The moment she lost the debate - when she stood out there with the Iraq War vote on her record
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:14 AM
Oct 2015

Even Chafee voted against it

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
64. Why just Mme. President.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:41 AM
Oct 2015

I know. I heard the last question, and I heard Clinton's answer. She immediately said, "Look at me, I'm a woman!" I guess that this is her hollywood casting call.

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