Hillary voted for the War in Iraq. She voted for the Patriot Act.

[sabrina 1]

I hope Bernie gets a chance to talk about why HE had the GOOD JUDGEMENT and the FORESIGHT, Hillary lacked, when he voted against both the Iraq War and the Patriot Act at a time when it took great courage to do so.

One thing we know, Bernie Sanders TELLS THE TRUTH.

Unlike most politicians he has not and never will engage in Demogoguery or Obfuscations or Excuses for making extremely bad decisions.

The issue of the disastrous Neocon Wars, in Iraq and elsewhere, needs to be discussed and I hope it will.

We can count on Bernie at least, to TELL THE TRUTH about that disastrous decision made by far too many who did not either have the GUTS to vote against it, or were actually for it, before they were against it.

[sabrina 1]

5. Barbara Lee and she had to get protection for herself and her family as a result. It took a lot

of courage to vote against Bush/Cheney and their gang of criminal liars back then. But Bernie did have that courage and his speech when he voted against it, showed his incredible ability to judge an issue as serious as that was and the foresight he showed in his predictions of how it would turn out.

Bernie/Lee for 2016!

Kennedy was wrong btw. As we all know and many of us KNEW at the time.

[LondonReign2]

7. Lee would be an awesome pick for VP

[sabrina 1]

16. Yes, she would. She and Bernie have worked together on several issues throughout

their terms in Congress. I would at least like to see her in some position in his cabinet, same with Warren.

[RobertEarl]

2. The whole WMD thing was a lie

Some people believed the lies, half the Democrats in congress did not.

Or, if they did know the Truth, they still wanted war so badly they voted yes to allow the bush to make war on an innocent country.

[sabrina 1]

13. And I know teenagers who knew it was a lie. Yet Hillary didn't! I remember that vote, will never

forget the shock when she stood up and I fully expected her to vote against it. Instead she voted for it. What a disappointment that was at the time.

And they want us to forget? How on earth do you forget something that has been such a massive crime based on lies, for which no one has yet been held accountable. The cost in human lives, it's unthinkable that we should forget.

[bvar22]

62. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

#1) I could never get over the embarrassment of having to stand before the World and
insist that the Village Idiot from Crawford fooled me!
I wouldn't be able to go outside again for fear that everyone would see the shame on my face......and KNOW I was lying.

#2)*Over 4000 young Americans killed for no reason.
Over 25k permanently wounded.

*Somewhere around 1 MILLION innocent Iraqis DEAD

*Over 5 MILLION displaced...homes ruined, families blown to pieces.


I could NOT live with that kind of guilt,
much less consider myself fit for Public Office.

[sabrina 1]

64. I honestly cannot relate to such people. And if they think decent people everywhere

who don't share the inhumane pathology that allows people to ignore every word you said, they are so badly mistaken.

Shame doesn't appear to be an emotion they can feel.

And when you see that trait in someone asking for a job where they could do something like this, have that kind of power, any person of conscience must reject it.

[hifiguy]

65. A small price to cover her own ass.

At least in her mind.

[cprise]

57. You had to ignore news sites outside the US to believe the lies.

For someone in Clinton's position there was no excuse.

I consider her willfully ignorant and actually somewhat bloodthirsty. She is very cozy with neocons, and they have stated they are comfortable with her take on foreign policy. That makes her irredeemable to me.

[rhett o rick]

61. If any Democrats in Congress believed the Bush lies, they must be totally ignorant.

The evidence presented was laughable. Our allies (except for Great Britian) publicly confirmed that Bush was lying. The Bush admin was blatantly obvious in squashing those that told the truth like Joseph Wilson with his wife Valerie.

Some went along with Bush because they were in the pocket of the MIC. Others went along because they feared looking like a non-patriot. I think HRC did it for both those reasons.

[Martin Eden]

73. Hillary knew it was a lie, or she's incompetent

She's not that stupid.

Either she was on board with the neocon agenda, or she made a political calculation and decided it was better for her own personal ambitions to look "tough" on national security.

At that time we desperately needed smart/strong/courageous Democratic leaders to stand up, speak truth to power, tell the American people what was really going on, and prevent the most costly strategic blunder in the history of US foreign policy. The consequences of this disaster continue to plague us and the world today.

Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Joe Biden, and nearly half the Dems in Congress forever lost my vote in Democratic primaries when they gave GW Bush authority to invade Iraq at his discretion.

This is something I will neither forget nor forgive.

[riversedge]

3. oh my All of Hillary's good polls yesterday and today is getting on your nerves??

[LondonReign2]

8. Some people are interested in policies

Some, not so much

[sabrina 1]

25. Ssshhh, that's exactly what some people DON'T want Bernie to talk about!

Or us for tthe that matter. Which to me means, we MUST talk about the facts, which I see has acquired a new title, 'demagoguery'

[frylock]

46. Polling and trolling Trump is good enough for some folks.

[hifiguy]

66. And trolling the orangutoid Il Douche

is up there with taking candy from a sleeping baby in the "smarts required to do it" department.

[sabrina 1]

10. What a sad comment! Trying to distract from the facts simply won't work in this campaign.

It's sad that Hillary has made so many wrong decisions that she later has had to apologize for.

Polls are rapidly changing. I am thrilled to see how Bernie is trending upwards in every poll, beating the FR in NH and in Iowa and across the country as she trends DOWNWARD he continues to TREND UPWARDS.

I certainly never expected him to be knocking her Corporate funded campaign out of the running at this stage. In fact I am amazed that he has done far more without that money we are told they can't do without, at this point.

From 3% name recognition, to over 30% so far. And each day he his non corporate financed growing ARMY of ordinary people will increase that name recognition.

I am in fact thrilled with the polls which are way ahead for him than even we thought they would be.

[riversedge]

19. You are a few days behind in the polls. Such as this one..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141232403

[sabrina 1]

20. You want to talk about polls? Rather than an issue that is so important to voters now?

Lol, can't say I blame you though I'm thrilled with the polls so far.

Hillary has made so many WRONG decisions it's actually frightening to think of her being in a powerful position such as POTUS where she is likely to do so again.

Btw, you are missing the polls on Bernie's actual support, but that's okay, we know he is now ahead of where Obama was on Donations from ordinary people, on Polls and in fact he is ahead of where Obama was at this point on everything.

I remember, I got similar 'did you see THIS poll' comments from Hillary supporters back then also.

Hillary voted for the Iraq War which showed a horrendous lack of the kind of judgement and foresight necessary in a good leader. Period.

[JDPriestly]

50. One thing the polls don't measure is the degree of commitment for a candidate.

When I campaign for Bernie, I never hear (in fact I have not heard once yet) anyone say that they prefer Hillary.

Her name does not come up.

The only reason anyone has given me for opposing Bernie (thus far) is his pro-choice stance.

Now, it's just the beginning of the campaign.

But my impression is that while a lot of people say they like Hillary and they plan to vote for Hillary, their support for her is not deep. Not so deep that they tell a stranger about it.

I am not an intimidating person. I am not aggressive or forceful in campaigning for Bernie.

The Hillary fans are either awfully quiet about it or not really there. I suspect a lot of people who haven't thought much about it answer Hillary because she comes to mind.

So I don't put much stock in the poll results that show Hillary ahead by wide margins.

[sabrina 1]

67. Good post. I have had the same experience. I don't mention Hillary at all. I simply answer

questions people ask about Bernie. Sometimes I have had people ask me why 'since you are woman you don't support Hillary, wouldn't it be great to have a woman president'. I explain why I don't support her, if just having a woman president was the main reason to vote for her I would be ignoring a whole lot of things I simply cannot ignore.

I would like the first woman president to be someone like say, Barbara Lee. I explain why.

Other than that, her name doesn't come up much.

[kenfrequed]

21. So...

If you can't refute the OP on Hillary's support of the Iraq war or the patriot act then you should definitely bring up polling data. Because poll approval means that Hillary somehow didn't support the war or vote for the Patriot act.

[arcane1]

30. It's like saying Iraq wasn't so bad since Bush was reelected afterward.

"Transformers" was high art, as evidenced by its ticket sales.

Etc.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. She was monumentally stupid or cynically expedient. Either of which makes her unfit.

She not only voted for the slaughter but vocally supported it.

[sabrina 1]

23. And for the rest of the PNAC's list of countries to be 'turned into glass parking lots' according

another war criminal, still unindicted for his role in all of this, Michael Ledeen. She pushed for the equally disastrous invasion of Libya and for intervention in Syria.

Both countries were on the PNAC list of seven to be 'levelled' and 'democratized'. I remember reading somewhere that even Bush Sr thought these people were 'nuts'.

[cprise]

58. Even NY Times says she has a cozy relationship with neocons and their policies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/16/us/politics/historians-critique-of-obama-foreign-policy-is-brought-alive-by-events-in-iraq.html?_r=0

But Exhibit A for what Robert Kagan describes as his “mainstream” view of American force is his relationship with former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who remains the vessel into which many interventionists are pouring their hopes. Mr. Kagan pointed out that he had recently attended a dinner of foreign-policy experts at which Mrs. Clinton was the guest of honor, and that he had served on her bipartisan group of foreign-policy heavy hitters at the State Department, where his wife worked as her spokeswoman.

“I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy,” Mr. Kagan said, adding that the next step after Mr. Obama’s more realist approach “could theoretically be whatever Hillary brings to the table” if elected president. “If she pursues a policy which we think she will pursue,” he added, “it’s something that might have been called neocon, but clearly her supporters are not going to call it that; they are going to call it something else.”

--

Indeed, her supporters here certainly haven't been labeling Hillary's inclinations neocon.

Objectively, I think she is one.

[zeemike]

42. Or as they say, pragmatic.

If the PTB want a war you better give it to them.
You got to go along to get along if you want to get a quarter million a speech.
Pragmatism is never having to be concerned with morality.

[JDPriestly]

51. Cynically expedient -- that's my suspicion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. Agreed. She's not stupid. She was playing "smart, practical" politics with people lives.

A lot of peoples lives paid for her "strong" leadership.

[reformist2]

69. And yet it proved to be politically stupid, because the lies were exposed!

If nothing else, her career should be an example to children, that you shouldn't try to lie your way to the top.

[LexVegas]

6. Did more Americans die in Iraq or from gun violence since 2003? nt

[sabrina 1]

24. Do Iraqi, Libyan, Syrisan lives count also?

I understand the zenophobia that causes some of our generals to say when asked about Iraqi lives lost 'we don't do body counts'. But some of us don't devalue lives taken especially when WE are the ones taking them.

[cprise]

59. What an uncouth question!

[frylock]

48. And the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act would've prevented those deaths?

[JaneyVee]

9. Bernie voted for his fair share of war as well.

[sabrina 1]

11. Another false statement. Bernie voted to provide for the TROOPS. He never once supported this war.

And thanks for the reminder btw. This is why he has the full support of VETERANS. Because they KNOW of his total opposition to that awful war, but despite that he SUPPORTED them.

Veterans are helping his campaign in large numbers, because they would not have expected someone who OPPOSED and STILL DOES a war they supported themselves in the beginning to be such an advocate for them.

[JaneyVee]

12. HJ Res 64 ring a bell?

[sabrina 1]

15. Hillary voted for the Iraq War and the Patriot Act ring a bell? Bernie voted against both.

Bernie voted to provide for the troops which is why they now support him fully and are working hard to get him elected.

[JaneyVee]

17. SJ Res 45, HR 4655, Kosovo? Afghanistan?

[NCTraveler]

27. You are very very wrong.

Sanders has voted over and over again to arm warring factions across the globe. You might be able to make distinction, but in reality, dead is dead. It has often been our money, supported by votes of Sanders, that has brought about the deaths of tens of thousands. I am talking something completely different than equipping our own military. I am talking completely separate votes than our own military budget. I know you are fully aware of his votes to fund foreign armies.

One place you are right in your post is that Sanders is excellent when it comes to caring for our troops. All democratic candidates are.

[sabrina 1]

45. I am wrong that Hillary voted for the Iraq War and the The Patriot Act while

Sanders voted against both? I don't think so. This OP is in response to a claim that to engage in these facts would be 'demagoguery'.

I am more than willing to look at everyone's record, but we are kept busy here responding to talking points that have no basis in fact.

I want to know all about our candidates. We all do.

But so long as Corporate money is driving the conversation, we will have no choice but to spend time debunking the lies and deceptions.

We didn't do that when Dean and Kerry were attacked by the same 'sources'.

That taught us a lesson.

Regardless of anything else, Sanders right now, has the best record on NOT WANTING this country engaging in wars UNLESS it is to defend this country.

Show me another candidate who has a better record on Iraq and the Bush agenda after 9/11 and I will gladly support that candidate.

[NCTraveler]

47. Not even a well thought out deflection on your part.

I have actually replied in the appropriate place to your op about her votes there. Please see them as this is dishonest on your part.

The post of yours I responded to here is false at best. That is truly at best. You and I both know he has voted over an over again to arm foreign and warring armies. Many in the exact same region that had a direct influence on Iraq. It is simply a fact that they are attached and you know it. It is also a fact that arms for foreign armies Sanders voted for have made it into Iraq to be used against our own troops. I have had enough of the complete deflection of some when reality doesn't conform to their desires, as is the case here with you. Rewriting history sucks.

[sabrina 1]

49. Again, since I wrote the OP I know what the topic is. You are in a thread

that is responding the latest talking point that to 'engage in a discussion' of the FACT that Hillary voted for the Iraq War would be 'demagoguery. Now if you can stick to the topic of this OP which I have told you is a response to yet another attempt to smear Sanders, which appears to be all Hillary's supporters do here frankly, fine.

But I intend to respond to talking points every time I see them.

We can spend more time on actual, intelligent discussion when the daily stream of corporate funded lies and decpeptions end. But that's apparently not going to happen until Sanders and others like him, succeed in drying up the funding that pays for them.

Another reason I support him. He doesn't just Say 'I oppose CU, he REFUSES to take advantage of that Dark Money'.

You have called me 'dishonest'. That is a false accusation. What exactly is dishonest about my post to which you responded?

[JDPriestly]

54. Bernie has stated that he thinks we should keep our soldiers out of the wars in the Middle

East and that countries like Saudi Arabia which is number three in terms of expenditures on its military should have be putting its soldiers in danger's way. We should not fight the battles of other countries for those countries. Bernie believes in supporting our allies but not in putting our troops in harm's way while the soldiers of other countries sit on their hands.

I strongly agree with Bernie on this.

He is not a pacifist per se.

His objections to the War in Iraq were clear and very intelligent.

He questioned how we would govern the country after we invaded Iraq and what would happen if there was an insurrection after we invaded.

He foresaw the very bad ending that we see today: an ungovernable country with an insurrection in parts of it and the brutality of ISIS, all spawned by our foreign policy under Bush, Cheney, Obama, Clinton and Biden.

Sanders is just smarter than the whole lot that I just mentioned. He asks the right questions before getting into the war.

I predict that if and when he is elected, our military brass will love working with him. He is not a wimp. He is just very astute about strategy, and he knows how to fight to win and to pick his battles.

He is not a pacifist.

[NCTraveler]

56. I am well aware he isn't a pacifist. He isn't even close to one.

He has shown he would rather fund foreign armies than use our own. He also makes very good points on backing out of certain areas and letting the power players in the regions take a larger role. A pretty mixed bag overall.

"He foresaw the very bad ending that we see today"

Unfortunately, that didn't take very much insight. I say unfortunately because that means the votes of Hillary and others was pretty nefarious. But Sanders wasn't some smart guy in the room on this one. Almost every member of du was right there without even knowing who Sanders was. lol.

[JDPriestly]

52. Bernie wants other countries to fight their own wars.

I think it is a good idea.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. "You're either with us or you're against us."

"If you're against the war, you're against our troops!" "FREEDOM FRIES!" And everyone, at the time, was wrapping themselves in the flag. If a Senator or a congressperson didn't have on their USA flag pin any time a camera was nearby, and were seen without it, they were painted as a "TRAITOR."

Bernie was brave beyond belief, and most importantly, he was RIGHT on both of those historically important votes.

[sabrina 1]

18. He was, very courageous and right. And that is why they are HOPING he won't bring up

Hillary's wrong stand on these two most important issues.

Note the feeble attempts to slime a man who simply cannot be slimed due to the FACTS available which we his army of supporters will make sure as many people as possible, know.

There must be a lot of that Dark Money floating around! Lol, you'd think they would simply be HONEST like Bernie because it works so much better than lies and deceptions which the people are sick and tired of and are telling them so as the continue to join Bernie's Political Revolution!

[sabrina 1]

22. Hillary voted for a Republican war. Btw, wasn't Kosovo Clinton's war? Thanks for

the reminder. What was Hillary's position on that or has she changed that too?

I'll have to look into the record of Hillary's position on that war. At the time, because we know how often she changes her mind on this major issues.

[JDPriestly]

55. We did not start the war in Kosovo.

We stopped a massacre, an ethnic cleansing of sorts.

Yes, kosovo occurred under Bill Clinton's presidency.

[cprise]

60. There was a lot of myth pushed about the conflict there

If you look at the coverage from sites like Democracy Now, Alternet, The Independent and others without CFR ties they paint a very different picture. The "ethnic cleansing camps" shown on TV were detainment areas for illegal immigrants and the "starving" people was one individual with a genetic condition in a cropped photo (the famous Penny Marshall ITN photo). People like Clinton and Sanders got sucked into alarmism.

The fighting that had been going on in the region was at a fairly low intensity until the US intervened. Intervention caused the carnage to skyrocket.

Bill Clinton personally blew up at Amy Goodman (who later received a Pulitzer prize) over her line of questioning on the Balkans.

Whatever else you think the intervention in former Yugoslavia accomplished, it has also given legitimacy to ethnic and religious separatism... the idea that nations can't work unless they are 'pure'. The US now uses this -- selectively -- as a policy tool.

[eridani]

71. That's something I don't agree with Sanders on

A negotiated approach would have worked, because Milosevic had only 40% support. He was in office only because the majority opposition couldn't unite against him. Simply adding a very small amount of territory to Serbia would have gotten ALL the Serbs in Kosovo out of the hair of the Albanians permanently.

There is also the issue of why we should consider ethnic cleansing in Kosovo bad, while at the same time logistically supporting the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina of Serbs by Croatia. Either both are bad, or both are good--not one of each.

[sabrina 1]

68. Yes, which is why I and most Democrats supported it. But the revisionism of history

is astounding. And Clinton was pushed airc, to intervene to stop that massacre.

They are scraping the bottom of the barrel in their desperation to attack the record of a politician who soars above the rest wrt to his long record of BEING RIGHT on most of the issues.

[JDPriestly]

70. I lived in Austria at one time.

Yugoslavia was a patchwork of people with different religions and cultures. It could have worked, but we had neighbors who were from there and actually had their car hollowed out so that they could smuggle things -- coffee, all kinds of things.

It was a situation about to blow up at any moment for many years.

[NCTraveler]

26. Two extremely poor votes on her part. nt.

[elehhhhna]

28. So mean

Lol

[sabrina 1]

33. One thing I'm NOT worried about is having this raided in the Debates and

I know for sure there will be no 'Demagoguery' from one the most honest Candidates, even to people who don't agree with him on many of his Liberal positions, we have ever had.

There seems to be some 'concern' about something that is simply not possible, 'demagoguery' from Bernie. So I wanted to set those minds at rest.

The only thing they need to fe.. well, look forward to from Bernie will be the FACTS.

I never have considered the truth to be 'mean'. I consider deliberate attempts to alter reality and the facts to try to harm another human being, to be excessively 'mean' and that's putting it mildly.

[JEB]

29. Serial bad judgement.

[sabrina 1]

63. No question about it. Which is why they do not want people to bring it up!

[Uncle Joe]

31. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, sabrina.

[sabrina 1]

40. You're welcome Uncle Joe! n/t

[portlander23]

34. It’s something that might have been called neocon ... her supporters are not going to call it that

Last edited Tue Oct 13, 2015, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

It’s something that might have been called neocon ... her supporters are not going to call it that

But Exhibit A for what Robert Kagan describes as his “mainstream” view of American force is his relationship with former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who remains the vessel into which many interventionists are pouring their hopes. Mr. Kagan pointed out that he had recently attended a dinner of foreign-policy experts at which Mrs. Clinton was the guest of honor, and that he had served on her bipartisan group of foreign-policy heavy hitters at the State Department, where his wife worked as her spokeswoman.

“I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy,” Mr. Kagan said, adding that the next step after Mr. Obama’s more realist approach “could theoretically be whatever Hillary brings to the table” if elected president. “If she pursues a policy which we think she will pursue,” he added, “it’s something that might have been called neocon, but clearly her supporters are not going to call it that; they are going to call it something else.”

[sabrina 1]

35. That is so disturbing!! Her supperters may call it something else?? Such as?

She IS a neocon, or maybe she prefers 'neoliberal'. The bi-partisanship of Neocons and Neolibs!

She didn't just support Iraq she pushed for those other two PNAC neocon disastrous invasions also, Libya and Syria.

She is a war hawk. I used to think she was trying to win elections by mistakenly thinking this is what the people wanted.

Now I know this is not the case. She firmly believes in US Imperialism.

[stonecutter357]

36. I am voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton....

[sabrina 1]

37. I am a proud supporter of the most honest politician with the record to prove it,

we have ever had the privilege to vote for.

I want leaders who make the right decisions at critical times, especially when the lives of so many, many human beings are at stake.

I hope this issue is raised, by Bernie preferably, in this and other Debates. We need to hear the truth about these Neocon interventions that have cost this and other countries so much.

No one can deliver the facts better than he.

[stonecutter357]

72. .

In 2005, Sanders voted for the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, a terrible law that shields gun sellers and manufacturers from legal liability in most lawsuits.

[hifiguy]

38. Such repeatedly atrocious judgment

or craven ass-covering, it can only be one of these two things, completely disqualifies her from holding the presidency. As if her cozy associations with the likes of Blankfein, Dimon and War Criminal Kissinger were already not enough.

[sabrina 1]

39. I used to think it was just a political miscalculation, which is bad enough. But I believe

now, after her push for the other PNAC invasions, Libya and Syria, that she truly believes in the PNAC agenda whereby the US must replace the Cold War by using its military strength 'as the only Super Power' to expand its Imperial goals.

'We are an Empire now'!

Which is why no one who is that much of a war hawk should be given the power to implement any further than they have already, these disastrous policies.

[hifiguy]

41. A hawk owned by Wall Street/The Plutocracy/MIC

What the fuck has the Democratic Party come to? (A rhetorical question - I know the answer, who did the selling, and to whom). NO, NAY, NEVER. NO, NAY, NEVER NO MORE!

[sabrina 1]

43. Good question: 'Wtf has the Dem party come to'? We do know the answer and

Bernie is making sure everyone knows what has happened to turn this country into an Empire. And we all know what happens to people who have lived in Empires in the past.

Let's hope the people wake up enough to start the turnaround of these Imperialist policies which had so harmed so many people, not just here in the US, but everywhere the neocons went to bring 'democracy'.

[hifiguy]

44. Damn tootin.

for Bernie!!!