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MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:33 PM Sep 2015

Here's a weird thought about Joe Biden's role:

Just sitting around thinking about why Biden would want to run for President, despite his ambivalence, something came to me that could possibly explain it. It's more than a little bit cynical, but here goes. Punch as many holes in it as you can, please:

Biden and Clinton are pretty much cut from the same cloth, politically. They probably would have very similar goals for the next four or eight years. It appears that most of the polling numbers that have accrued to Biden have come at the expense of Clinton's numbers. Her polling percentages have gone down with the speculation that Biden might run. Bernie Sanders' poll numbers have stayed about the same or have risen a bit on a nationwide basis, anyway.

What if all this is intentional? What if, a day or two before the first debate, Biden announces that he's not going to run after all? What if that was the plan all along? Here's what would occur if that happened, I'm pretty sure:

The debate would take place, with the major news being that Biden had dropped out dominating the news. Following the debate, there would be a heavy spate of polling, as there will be whatever happens. But, the pollsters would take Biden's name off the list. Suddenly, those being polled wouldn't see Biden as an option in the polls. Odds are that most of them would choose Clinton, as they had done before Biden's name was bandied about. The result? A huge kick to Clinton's polling numbers. Suddenly, she'd be far ahead of Sanders, nationwide. Never mind Iowa and New Hampshire, although Clinton would make gains there, too.

Now, many people would certainly understand that it was Biden's withdrawal that cause this jump, but many others would simply see it as a switch in the momentum. Perhaps, actually, it would be a major change in momentum. As time passed, Biden's withdrawal would become less and less important as the campaign continued

So, what if this was all part of a plan, strategically designed to flip momentum simultaneously with the first Democratic primary debate? Far-fetched? Maybe. But politics is a strange critter, indeed.

Maybe I'm way off base in my speculating with this. Maybe Biden won't make any announcement at all before the debate. Maybe he'll announce that he is, indeed, going to run. Or maybe he just won't say anything at all. If that's his decision, he'll still lose some polling numbers, just because people are pissed off that he didn't declare, one way or another. Or, perhaps, my scenario above will play out.

I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks. Let me know what you think about this possibility, and we can compare notes later.

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Here's a weird thought about Joe Biden's role: (Original Post) MineralMan Sep 2015 OP
it's pretty simple fence-sitting. if clinton implodes, he runs as the establishment candidate. unblock Sep 2015 #1
As another old timer I can see it. Scruffy1 Sep 2015 #9
What you posit is worth thinking about... mak3cats Sep 2015 #2
It's an interesting thought, MM. But why would Biden choose to do this for Clinton's campaign? DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2015 #3
He wants her to win as does Obama. leftofcool Sep 2015 #5
That wouldn't surprise me at all. MineralMan Sep 2015 #7
I am not so sure artislife Sep 2015 #14
Not sure about Biden, but I don't think Obama's a Clinton fan. Fawke Em Sep 2015 #20
I expect Obama and Biden to actively endorse and support MineralMan Sep 2015 #6
Sitting presidents don't usually endorse a candidate in the primary. Fawke Em Sep 2015 #21
I Think That's Skating On Thin Ice As.... global1 Sep 2015 #4
Bernie Sanders supporters want a big change. MineralMan Sep 2015 #8
There's also the possibility that some % of the support Hillary loses to Biden demwing Sep 2015 #10
Seems unlikely to me, really, MineralMan Sep 2015 #11
But neither of us are unbiased demwing Sep 2015 #15
Of course. I'm more unbiased than you'd think, though. MineralMan Sep 2015 #17
This seems unlikely to me, sadoldgirl Sep 2015 #12
best summation yet on the Biden adventure Backwoodsrider Sep 2015 #13
You could be right, but Biden still seems MineralMan Sep 2015 #16
I think he will run because there a very nice niche between Hillary and Bernie. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2015 #18
Another possible motivation is for Biden to remain ready as a back up Gothmog Sep 2015 #19
You could well be right. MineralMan Sep 2015 #22

unblock

(52,233 posts)
1. it's pretty simple fence-sitting. if clinton implodes, he runs as the establishment candidate.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:40 PM
Sep 2015

otherwise, he bows out gracefully.

he's plan b.

Scruffy1

(3,256 posts)
9. As another old timer I can see it.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:08 PM
Sep 2015

One thing I've learned is you can't be cynical enough dealing with entrenched power. I often have compared politicians to pro wrestlers. Once I had a part time job driving professional wrestlers to out of town matches. They hired me to drive so they could spend their travelling time working on their scripts and moves together. This was before big, big money and they were a great bunch. They all had other jobs, too. But I sometimes think most of the stuff we see is just scripted to make it seem like we have some "democratic" process. Once in a while, someone sneaks through who doesn't follow the script, but more often than not they are the evil side of populism, hence the current crop who got into office by appealing to bigotry and ignorance.

mak3cats

(1,573 posts)
2. What you posit is worth thinking about...
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:41 PM
Sep 2015

...having Biden's dropping out dominating the news cycle would certainly take attention away from the debate itself, especially if HRC's performance at it was less than stellar. And it would keep Bernie's name out of the news as seems to be the practice these days among the M$M.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
3. It's an interesting thought, MM. But why would Biden choose to do this for Clinton's campaign?
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:48 PM
Sep 2015

I have the sense (not the proof) that there's not a lot of love lost between the White House and Clinton.

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
7. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:01 PM
Sep 2015

Sanders isn't part of the traditional Democratic leadership. Clinton is. In national politics, winning is everything, so a lot of planning goes on, well in advance of the first primary election. It could include something like this, easily. We'll see. I could be all wet with this speculation. I don't know. I've not seen this idea raised, frankly, but it is an obvious possibility that could be in play.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
14. I am not so sure
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:12 PM
Sep 2015

Running for president Obama has a lot of lofty goals and inspired speeches. He spoke of the little guy, the environment and bringing people up. A lot like Sanders.

I don't fault President Obama for not attaining a lot of those goals, but he sure seems to be trying to get a lot of what he spoke about done now, in the this last year. He is my President and I am proud that I voted for him twice in the GE. I would have liked more, but I am not naive in how the political process works. And I know that he had a firm part in some that I didn't like.

No one will match my issues point to point.

Back on topic.

The inspirational Obama, the "magic Negro" (RW and H term for seemingly his pie in the sky promises) Obama, may very well love what Sanders is pushing. Dream big or go home.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
20. Not sure about Biden, but I don't think Obama's a Clinton fan.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:57 PM
Sep 2015

Not after 2008.

He appointed her SoS to keep her from running in 2012 and to keep his enemies close.

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
6. I expect Obama and Biden to actively endorse and support
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:59 PM
Sep 2015

Hillary Clinton, and always have. She's part of the Democratic leadership equation, and Bernie Sanders isn't. That's part of Bernie's considerable charm for many voters, but endorsements are a big deal when it comes to both the nomination and the GE.

Really, I have no problem imagining something like this being set up to act as a spoiler for the Sanders campaign. Stranger things have happened, to be sure.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
21. Sitting presidents don't usually endorse a candidate in the primary.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:58 PM
Sep 2015

But they do work for their party in the general.

global1

(25,248 posts)
4. I Think That's Skating On Thin Ice As....
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:49 PM
Sep 2015

I don't think Hillary will do that well in a debate against Sanders and the other Dem candidates. So banking on the fact that if Biden drops out she'll pick up the support that went to him is iffy at best.

If Bernie does as well as I think he'll do in the debate - I think many of those that abandoned Clinton for Biden - would gravitate to Bernie. Think about it - why did those people abandon Hillary in the first place. They were looking for an alternative.

Bernie's performance in the debate will give people a viable alternative. That's just my two cents worth.

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
8. Bernie Sanders supporters want a big change.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:05 PM
Sep 2015

They're very unlikely to switch from Biden to Sanders, since Biden is pretty much the same, politically, as Clinton, really. People who don't like Clinton won't like Biden, either, and for pretty much the same reasons.

As for their debate performances, I think you may be exaggerating the situation. I expect Clinton to do well, and I expect Sanders to do well, but they'll be speaking to two different groups of potential voters and supporters. Many Democrats will think Hilllary did best. Some will think Sanders did, once the debate is over. Both will do OK for themselves, I'm sure, but opinions will be based on already-formed preferences, in most cases, I think.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
10. There's also the possibility that some % of the support Hillary loses to Biden
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:20 PM
Sep 2015

becomes more comfortable with a decision to look beyond Hillary, and that support gets divided by the "also-rans" -- not necessarily by Bernie.

I could see Web jumping a bit...

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
11. Seems unlikely to me, really,
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:22 PM
Sep 2015

considering their politics and positions. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my take on it.

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
17. Of course. I'm more unbiased than you'd think, though.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:34 PM
Sep 2015

For me, who wins as a Democrat is far less important than some Democrat winning. My choice is based, really, on who I think has the best chance to beat whoever the Republicans nominate. I think it's likely to be Bush in the end. I doubt that Sanders can carry enough states in the primaries to get the nomination. I doubt that very much, and think we'll start to see that in February, with it becoming absolutely clear on March 1. I think the Republican Party will manage to get Jeb Bush on the ballot, as well.

What worries me is that that pairing is going to limit enthusiasm on the part of voters. That would mean a low turnout and a very close election - one that could go either way.

Frankly, which Democrat is elected President is not that interesting to me. I know what the limitations of any President are. I'm far more concerned with Congress, and a low turnout will not get the Senate back or help in the House. I'm worried on that score. I'm a pragmatic Democrat who never feels like we are far enough left in the people we elect. In 2016, I do not see a Sanders nomination as leading to anything but a sweep by Republicans, and that's scary as Hell to me.

I'm not happy about how things are going, really, but I don't see many alternatives on the horizon. I can't see Sanders as the nominee, and think he would lose badly to a well-supported Republican, so I'm supporting Clinton in the primaries, but I don't see her generating the kind of enthusiasm that's needed.

I'm pessimistic about 2016, frankly, but hopeful that we can pull out a win. That's what I'll be working on.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
12. This seems unlikely to me,
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 02:49 PM
Sep 2015

because I do believe that Biden would love to
get into the WH as POTUS. I think he may wait for
Clinton to lose more support, and then jump in
after the debate. He then may offer her the VP
position, in case he only wants to be in for only
four years.
Whichever way it may go,it is clear that the
establishment and party will do anything to
keep Bernie from a) the nomination, and
should he succeed b) from the WH.

If the establishment will succeed, the democratic
party will lose a large chunk of future voters, but
that does not seem to be a concern.

Backwoodsrider

(764 posts)
13. best summation yet on the Biden adventure
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:04 PM
Sep 2015

Biden is plan B, nice idea about 1 term though makes sense. I am seeing some distance between what the establishment wants and what most people want though. I wonder how they are going to try and save this one?

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
16. You could be right, but Biden still seems
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:25 PM
Sep 2015

very ambivalent about this. I think he's weighing becoming an elder statesman against the stresses of being President. I know that I'd decide to skip the election, if I were in his shoes. We're similar in age, and being President is a very, very trying job. He also might lose if he got the nomination. But then, so might anyone, really.

The Democratic establishment is not fond of Sanders, since he maintained his separation from the party for so very long. He's far from a team player, and that's a real issue. The office of President is different from any other elected office in the US. Anyone who strays too far from the middle of the road always has a very hard time getting elected. Since each state contributes to the electoral college vote, the winner must get some crossover or swing states to win. There are several states that can swing from Democratic to Republican very easily, and often do.

Bernie Sanders does very well in strongly blue states, particularly in the Northeast, but is polling poorly in a number of swing states, which usually balk at giving the nod to anyone considered to be too far to the left by the voters in those states. It doesn't take too many of those states to swing the election from Democratic to Republican for the office of President. 2014 is an indicator of that. Enthusiasm by Democratic voters was down, and we lost the Senate, which should never have happened. Sanders, I believe, will win none of those states, as long as a non-insane Republican is the nominee.

I think 2016 is going to be a very difficult election when it comes to the presidency. Difficult for both parties, actually. Turnout by each party's voters is going to decide which party wins. Looking at things right now, I think we'll have a very low turnout in 2016, on both sides. I don't think there will be enough enthusiasm for a decisive victory for either Democrats or Republicans. It's very, very worrisome to me, since turnout will also determine whether we get the Senate back.

Sanders has many dedicated supporters, but there is also a number of Democrats who don't find him all that exciting for a number of reasons. Clinton will also struggle to build enthusiasm and Biden wouldn't do any better, really. All of the viable potential Democratic candidates are old, really. That's not going to enthuse a lot of people, one way or another. On the Republican side, if they can't get Jeb Bush nominated, the alternatives are all pretty much wacko nutcases, really. That will keep many Republican voters at home in November. I think a lot of people may just shrug at the choices and sit the election out - more than many people think.

I'm not feeling very good about 2016. My fear is that it might well end up as an election voted on by a minority of registered voters. If that is the case, the whole thing will be a toss-up, and that bodes ill for Congress, above all. I'll be out there, doing my best to GOTV, and Minnesota will probably respond with at least a 60% turnout. I can't say I think that will be the case in several swing states. I'm just not seeing the excitement nationally for this election.

Personally, I think it will end up a Clinton/Bush election. That's my best guess. If so, the excitement factor will be minimal.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
18. I think he will run because there a very nice niche between Hillary and Bernie.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:39 PM
Sep 2015

He will run as the "Not as Bad as Hillary" and "Not as Radical as Bernie" candidate.

I do, however, agree that Bidan and Hillary are cut from the same cloth and will vote for Sanders when he wins the nomination.

Gothmog

(145,243 posts)
19. Another possible motivation is for Biden to remain ready as a back up
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:53 PM
Sep 2015

I do not think that Biden will get into the race unless there is an implosion in the Clinton campaign. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251622707 Biden's announcement of his decision not to run will help Clinton no matter when it is made. If Biden makes such an announcement either before the first debate or after the Howdy Gowdy hearings, then there will be a major bump in the polling for Hillary Clinton.

If there was an implosion in the Clinton campaign, Biden will be the nominee. I can not see any circumstance where Sanders will be the nominee.

MineralMan

(146,309 posts)
22. You could well be right.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 04:01 PM
Sep 2015

I'm unsure, but this idea developed and I wanted to post it. I think you're right, though, about Sanders not being the nominee. I see no path for him to get the number of convention delegates needed from all 50 states. No path at all, regardless of what happens by the time of the first round of caucus/primary votes and Super Tuesday. All a person has to do is look at the list of Super Tuesday states and the picture is clear.

I think the nomination will be clearly decided on March 2, 2016. And I don't think Biden will be one of the options by then. Just my educated guess, though.

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