You know...

[WI_DEM]

I don't think the primary wars are any worse than they were in 2008 when it was Hillary vs. Obama and maybe not as bad as I recall when it was Dean vs. Kerry and Edwards.

In the end we will all get back together.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. The Left vs Right conflict has been boiling here since the inception of DU.

I find it highly amusing that some think DU should be like polite discussion of how to plant petunias.

[DanTex]

3. There is no "right" here. It's the left versus the crazies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Crazies?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

Like electing another neolib as president. Or, at least, trying to.

[brooklynite]

10. Am I to understand that NOT electing someone (see: McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis) would be better?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Am I to understand that voting for what McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis stood for is crazy?

[brooklynite]

17. In the GE? No. In the Primary, arguably yes.

...and I will acknowledge that I voted for two of them (I was 13 when McGovern ran). However, hindsight tells me that some types of candidates manage to win elections and some candidates don't.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Hillary lost.

I voted for McGovern, Dukakis, and Mondale. I would do so again.

I even voted for Bill....twice...hindsight tells me I wasted my votes.

[brooklynite]

21. Hillary lost a General Election?

[treestar]

45. How, Nixon, Bush win anyway

so where' the "waste?" Especially since not voting tells them there are even fewer liberals than they think there are.

[upaloopa]

54. All of us of voting age did the same as you. We voted for the Dem candidate. I voted for Jesse

Jackson in a CA primary even though I knew he would never win but I voted for Dukakis in the general. I was a two time looser.

[artislife]

7. This is why the op is wrong. nt

[Hortensis]

16. Yes, but if you run too far left is there at least a warning

light or something before you're shaking fists with the far right?

[sibelian]

39. Nah.

It's the wannabes versus the thinkers.

[whatchamacallit]

42. Maybe you could detail which positions held by DU's left-leaning members

could be characterized as "crazy".

[DanTex]

43. For example, that Hillary is "GOP lite". No sane person could believe that, unless

they live in another country and have never seen the GOP in action.

[whatchamacallit]

46. I beg to differ

Third Way democrats and neoliberals share a great deal with republicans. It's crazy to ignore their substantial intersection.

[DanTex]

48. See that's what I'm talking about. If I thought it would make any difference,

I would list all the enormous ways that Hillary is worlds apart from even the mildest GOP candidates (hint: look at her platform and then at theirs), but I know it won't. People who hate Hillary are generally immune to facts, and a lot of them are proud of it.

[whatchamacallit]

49. Yes, there are ways in which she is different

No one is saying she's the equivalent of a modern, off-the-charts-batshit, republican. She's a moderate establishment democrat, which is to the right of many republicans of yore.

[DanTex]

50. I guess I missed the days of wonderful friendly Republicans.

I'll have to take your word on it, but still, that's entirely irrelevant, because if the Dems lose the presidency, the Republicans that will take over are the Republicans of today.

[whatchamacallit]

51. Dems will certainly lose if Hillary is the nominee

[DanTex]

52. That's another aspect of the crazy: thinking the socialist is going to win against the GOP.

[whatchamacallit]

55. How 'bout you don't call me crazy

Last edited Sat Sep 26, 2015, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)

People love to pretend that opinions on DU don't represent the nation at large, but you see the same distrust and dislike of Hillary on other sites and in the media. She is not as popular as you'd like to believe. Now before you post a poll showing her ahead, remember her slide in the polls has been precipitous. She didn't have it in 2008 and she doesn't have it now.

[HooptieWagon]

60. Hillary is to the right of Eisenhower.

A bit to the left of Reagan, just about where Nixon was.
Obama calls himself a Reagan Democrat, he and Hillary's positions are fairly close.
So, Hillary is somewhere from Nixon to Reagan, inclusive. That's MUCH further right than FDR, JFK, Bobby, McGovern, or even Carter. Hillary was in fact a Republican in 1964, and her current positions place her comparable to republicans in the 70s. In my book, that's Republican Lite.

[Scootaloo]

56. If you were any less self-aware...

[Armstead]

8. I hate the way you plant petunias

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Is it because I only plant Red petunias?

[Armstead]

14. Commie Flowers

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. I plant them with a hammer and harvest them with a sickle.

[DanTex]

2. I agree. 2008 was epic. This isn't as bad, and we'll all come together once there's a Republican

staring at us.

[Hortensis]

19. I'm not around long enough for perspective, so it's nice to hear.

[liberal_at_heart]

4. I am no longer beholden to a party so I will not be getting back together just to support

whoever wins the nomination.

[NCTraveler]

6. K&R

Right now out of the three most often discussed I can get really excited about any of them in the general. We are going to be in excellent shape. The distinction between the two parties couldn't be any greater. They keep shooting themselves in the foot bowing down to the likes of the tea party. Thoughts across the country have really changed over the last couple of decades. The policy positions of all of our candidates resonates with a majority of Americans.

You know, I think you are correct, we will all(most all) come back together to slay the racist, economically disadvantaged hating bigots on the other side.

[liberal_at_heart]

26. I wouldn't count on most coming back together. Things are changing. For years and years

we liberals have been told to stop asking for ponies, shut up an vote for the nominee or else be blamed for letting the Republicans win. Well we finally have a candidate we believe in. A candidate to vote for instead of just voting against the Republicans. Some may be surprised how many write in votes there will be in the general election if Bernie doesn't win that is.

[NCTraveler]

27. I don't agree.

Some won't, some will. Your post can be found on this forum by others eight years ago.

"Some may be surprised how many write in votes there will be"

What you don't get is that it will be statistically insignificant. These are things discussed every election.

[liberal_at_heart]

28. Glad to hear my vote won't be missed. If Hillary loses I guess I won't be hearing how it is my fault

that the Republicans won.

[SwampG8r]

59. When Hillary loses

There
I fixed it for you

[upaloopa]

9. The real answer will come when someone

is nominated. I feel all hell will break lose here when that happens and I don't see a coming together in the cards.

[Godhumor]

13. The cooling down period looks to be longer this election than past ones

But time heals all wounds and all that.

[Hortensis]

22. So are the angry ones mostly long-term DUers, or do you guys

see a lot of newcomers? I've read Bernie has inspired some people to become involved for the first time.

[Godhumor]

24. A lot of newer posters, I think

And some old timers. It is all dependent on how invested a person is in one particular candidate. This cycle, one candidate has gained a very passionate following on DU and many are going to be angry if he doesn't win the nomination.

However, there is a lot of time between when the nomination battle finishes and levers have to be pulled.

[Hortensis]

30. Thanks, and right to that last. It's going to be very interesting

to watch. My big interest is in the various campaigns as this heats up, of course, but a surprising secondary interest is in the dynamics of this forum. Just wish I understood what is happening and had the perspective you guys who have been here a while do.

[aidbo]

18. I wasn't around here back then, but as internet drama goes, this is pretty mild. IMO

[bigwillq]

23. Politics is nasty and dirty.

I love Primary Wars on DU. It's the most wonderful time of the year.

I agree. They're as bad as past years, but not really worse. We will all survive.

[Maedhros]

25. The Democratic Party has defined itself solely by its opposition to the Republicans,

all the while using the "lesser of two evils" rationalization to continue getting elected while screwing the American people.

I bailed on the "vote for us, even though we suck, because we don't suck as bad as THEM" strategy years ago. Bernie Sanders has shown us that we can vote for what we want, and I don't plan on going back.

[Hortensis]

31. NO, Maedhros. Most conservatives are now defined by their single issue

of opposition to whatever Democrats propose. Like trained dogs.

Conservative leaders and rich men issue the attack orders, passed on by right-wing media. That's why Rush always starts his diatribes by something on the order of "You'll never guess what the Democrats are up to NOW." Listeners know immediately they are to be against whatever comes next and are given brief rationalizations and catch phrases.

Many conservative scholars have written on this in length, deploring what has happened to what used to be conservatism in America. The don't feel what the GOP now does in service to business and destruction of the proven systems conservatives once fought to conserve even IS conservatism.

As for party differences, the ideological differences from the Democratic Party and the GOP have grown enormous. The Democratic Party moved from liberal to LIBERAL CENTRIST for a bunch of reasons when the entire nation moved right during the "Reagan Era," but the GOP moved FAR RIGHT from what it once was. The enormous problems this dysfunctional ideology has created for the nation are bringing it down now, forcing the beginnings of change -- we HOPE -- but it's taken over 30 years even to get to this point.

[Maedhros]

32. I stand by my interpretation.

You are correct in regard to how Republicans behave, but I see little difference in how the Democratic Party operates. Liberals and Progressives are subjected to a constant barrage of propaganda telling us how horrible, despicable and inept the Republicans are, with very, very little news and information about what the Democrats are doing.

Scaring us with the specter of Republicans is all that the Democratic establishment has in its arsenal, and that's why the Democratic establishment is out-of-touch and why we need to look past them to leaders that have a vision.

Consider the following 'liberal' sources on the Internet:

Democratic Underground:

* The "Pic of the Moment" is nearly always a snarky jab at Republicans - like today: "With John Boehner Gone Republicans Need A New Speaker, Here Are Some Suggestions..."

* The Left Column, which one might assume to discuss Leftist ideas, has the following pieces:

"Boehner Will Resign from Congress"
"Fed Up With Vitter and Jindal, Louisiana Voters Might Elect Democratic Governor"
"Carly Fiorina and HP Scammed Taxpayers Out Of $4 Billion"
"Short-Term Spending Bill Defunding Planned Parenthood Blocked In Senate"
"Fox's Shep Smith has perfect response to Pope Francis's conservative critics"
"Right Wing Media Lash Out At Pope Francis During U.S. Visit"
"Pope will address Congress - Sack cartoon"
"President Obama on the passing of Yogi Berra"
"Huckabee: Obama Only 'Pretends To Be' A Christian"

Only one of these discusses actual Democratic accomplishments, and the majority simply jeer at Republicans.

Score: Posts about the Right Wing - 7 Posts about the President doing something non-political - 1 Posts about Democratic action - 1

Daily Kos:

"In Florida, no more arrest warrants for indigent"
"Cartoon: High school science fear"
"Republicans prepared to waste billions of dollars just to attack Planned Parenthood"
"Pelosi: The GOP is 'a political party at war with its own government'"
"Carly Fiorina blames the 'liberal' media for her Planned Parenthood lies"
"Jeb!: Pope is 'not a scientist' so he should shut up about climate change ... except he is"
"Could Boehner's exit scuttle the GOP's government shutdown?"
"House Republican leadership grasps at straws to avoid shutdown"
John Boehner's resigning from Congress, so what'll happen to his House seat?"
"Ted Cruz rejoices in Boehner's exit, Rubio welcomes new leadership"
"John Boehner press conference on his resignation"

Score: Posts about Republicans - 8 Cartoon - 1 Political news - 1 Posts about a Democrat - 1 (and that Democrat is talking about Republicans)

Salon:

"Boehner's Spectacular Failure"
"John Boehner’s speakership from hell: What half a decade of Republican disaster really looks like"
"Jeb goes full Mitt Romney: Man of inherited wealth and power says African-Americans want “free stuff”"
"P.J. O’Rourke on why Trump will collapse, Ann Coulter’s a fraud, and how National Lampoon created modern comedy "
"David Vitter’s Louisiana nightmare: He’s losing his race for governor — and he has only himself (and Bobby Jindal) to blame"
"Carly Fiorina’s despicable Planned Parenthood lies have gotten even worse"
"5 amazing ways Pope Francis made Republicans squirm yesterday"
"Alex Jones’ wild-eyed Pope Francis attack: Breaking down the shock jock’s latest unhinged conspiracy theory "
"The meritocracy is a lie: The wild myths that allow CEOs, hedge funders and the 1 percent to outearn us all"
"Noam Chomsky: Bernie Sanders can’t save America"
"America’s “religious liberty” fiasco: What Kim Davis, the GOP & Ahmed Mohamed reveal about our stunted priorities "
"Fox News’ Shepard Smith thinks Leonardo DiCaprio painted the “Mona Lisa” "
"Kim Davis breaks from Democrats, declares herself Republican mere hours before a Family Research Council gala in her honor "
"Conservatives rejoice over John Boehner’s resignation: “Treated other Republicans like jackasses” "
"Zero-tolerance madness: A “no touching” rule means even tag is out-of-bounds for Seattle-area school kids"
"John Boehner’s legacy of failure: He resigns with few admirers and fewer accomplishments"
"Bill Cosby’s public shaming: What it means for Fordham and Marquette to yank his honorary degrees"
"Sunday night’s “total supermoon lunar eclipse” will be as stunning as it sounds — but it won’t be the end of the world "
"Trump, Fiorina and why the “CEO president” rarely succeeds: “Politics is not just something one can pick up”"
"With John Boehner out, radical conservatives set their sights on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell "
"Watch conservative voters wildly cheer as Marco Rubio announces John Boehner’s resignation"

Score: Articles about Republicans - 12 Articles about Right-Wing media - 2 Articles about Democrats- 1

The Party sets the agenda, the media sells it, and the rank-and-file comply. It's brilliant, in an Orwellian way.

[Hortensis]

34. You do that. And then what?

Will your view of other liberals and the Democratic Party suddenly change if Bernie's out of the race after March 1? Will you suddenly discover some virtue in our candidates' positions that completely escapes you now?

Will you decide to, gee, maybe...compare the GOP and Democratic issue positions, or will you instead just flip a coin in the voting booth to decide right or left? Hillary, O'Malley, Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio, and of course all the other people on your ballot, being all one to you?

Or will you just stay home because there's absolutely no point in voting?

[Maedhros]

36. I'm not saying that Republicans and Democrats are identical in their positions,

just that both sides use the same political propaganda tools to enforce party loyalty. Is that so hard to see? A perusal of just three ostensible 'liberal' sites on the Internet clearly shows that 'liberals' are focused not on liberal ideas, but on Conservative malfeasance. Simply pointing out what's wrong with The Other Side(tm) doesn't help us solve the very real problems we're facing. That's why I find the current state of affairs so depressing - Democrats have so very few ideas, or at least are afraid to push them.

When the general election arrives, I will consider the candidates and cast my vote for the candidate that most closely represents my views and values. If that candidate is a Democrat, then great! If not, no worries. I will vote, as I have in every election since 1984.

[Hortensis]

38. Glad to hear you're not distracted by disgust from your goals.

So many are and won't vote. This isn't accidental.

The right wing has spent the last 35 years trying to disillusion and disgust the American electorate into not voting because the lower the turnout each 2 and 4 years the better right wing candidates do. With variations of the same tactics, they keep their big asset, far right voters, always angry and energized.

I disagree that "Democrats" have so few ideas. Bernie's practically speaking one of us, just prefers to wear a different label because he wants to go farther. You have to remember the U.S. population as a whole shifted strongly right starting in the late 1970s. It's not corruption that forced the Democratic Party, full of Bernies before then, to accept far more moderate goals. Democratic voters wanted moderation, therefore forced it on their representatives or replaced them.

This made right wing obfuscation easy. Because so many of the right wing's goals and policies are damaging and undesirable to most Americans, including many nonextremist conservatives, they worked very long and hard to fool people into believing
A. The Democrats did it.
B. There is no real difference between the parties. They're both equally bad.

NOT true. The issues Bernie and other Democrats address are in fact now those of most Americans, but if the GOP wins, they will not only undo all the change started in the Obama administration and restore business as usual but use the Supreme Court to calcify their ideology into law for generations.

[olddots]

29. I think alot of people used to vacate DU during primary wars

Because DU has some magical staying power while alternitive sites have closed many pf us have chosen to fuss and fight right here .Over the 14 years of DU the Democratic party has suffered division almost as much as the country as a whole .
Now people can feel like they are part of the underground in the underground .

[TSIAS]

33. I don't see any coming together

The Clinton supporters have called us every name in the book, and when we don't take it they'll just tell you how bad the Republican would be.

I think this primary finally told us how much the so-called establishment hates us. They might try to make nice in the end, but these wounds run deep and will never heal. The final straw for me was reading an anti-DU site that recently popped up. They despise Sanders supporters, and at least over there they will be completely honest about it.

[Maedhros]

37. See my post #32 above.

Scaring us with Republican malfeasance is the only thing they can do, because Hillary is part of the problem and not the solution.

[LWolf]

35. I don't remember

previous primary wars being all about a candidate's supporters, instead of the candidates themselves.

[sibelian]

41. Exactly. It's rather telling.

It's also incredibly tedious.

[LWolf]

44. Yes to both.

[sibelian]

40. Possibly...

But I doubt it.

[SwampG8r]

47. No back together for

People who seek to divide us by race and religion
Sorry but you can't walk this kind of stuff back

[upaloopa]

53. I was here long before the 2008 primary wars under a differnet name.

DU use to be a real discussion board. Most people here agreed on right vs left issues. When the 2008 primaries came all hell broke loose. It was cut throat. Since then is has been DUer against DUer as if 2008 opened the flood gates. So to me saying this isn't as bad as 2008 is like saying the plague we have now isn't any worse then the plague we had in 2008.

[Le Taz Hot]

57. Uh, I wouldn't count on that last part.

When people say they are tired of the status quo, they mean it. There's no reconciling that.

[smilingwen]

58. this is different

This primary is not just one candidate v/s the other. There is so much more at stake because it is a movement to wake up and quit letting the donors run the country. If Bernie does not win the primary I am not going to be fine backing a corporately funded candidate no matter who it is. The movement needs to not just be Bernie, and most Bernie supporters realize that. We seem to idolize him because we finally have hope that democracy can be saved. Not just by Bernie, but by backing candidates by the people, not by the big money interests.

New poster here. Hope it's ok to put my 2 cents in