How to lose: Fight against the right to health care and the right to not freeze to death...

[Bonobo]

Hillary and her supporters are doing an amazing job coming up with a losing strategy!

[Cali_Democrat]

1. I thought Hillary wanted healthcare for all.

Remember 1993?

She wanted to improve this country's healthcare system.

[Bonobo]

2. People evolve. nt

[jfern]

3. Hillary evolves pretty fast

2 months ago: "I take a back seat to no one ... in standing up for progressive values".
A couple of days ago: "I plead guilty ... to being a moderate"

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x36qwt0_this-one-clip-shows-why-many-choose-bernie-sanders-over-hillary-clinton-video_news

[Bonobo]

4. More like a mutation than evolution. nt

[CharlotteVale]

5. LOL, it's like she doesn't realize people have memories.

[tularetom]

27. Or she doesn't realize people have 'puters

She can't hide from her past anymore.

[rpannier]

6. Isn't that sweet

And disappointing
Not necessarily surprising

[Hortensis]

11. Jfern, progressives are people who believe in using the power of government

to achieve large-scale goals to advance society.

LIBERALS ARE OFTEN PROGRESSIVE. But are not necessarily.

MODERATES (LIB-CON MIX) ARE OFTEN PROGRESSIVE. But are not necessarily.

MODERATE CONSERVATIVES CAN BE PROGRESSIVE. But are less often. (Our state and national
congresses included many conservative progressives -- until they were driven out of office by the hard right during the Reagan era and right up to today.)


Here's a mind-bender: EVEN STRONG CONSERVATIVES CAN BE PROGRESSIVE ON A PARTICULAR ISSUE, WHILE RABIDLY ANTI-PROGRESSIVE IN GENERAL. (For instance, lots of right-wing women support the national school lunch program.)

Thus, there is no contradiction in Hillary's statements. She is part of a VERY large group of moderate-to-left progressives. Where her preferences fall in that range depends on the issue. Where the position she stakes out within that range falls depends on where she'll be able to gather the greatest support for it. Pragmatism is not a dirty word.

Pragmatic: Practical and realistic approach to problem solving.

[jfern]

16. Second to no one in progressiveness can't be moderate

[Hortensis]

18. Don't understand, but progressive reform is MOST OFTEN moderate-to-left.

[dorkzilla]

33. She’s not making any nuanced claims, she’s clearly drawing a distinction between progressive (left)

and moderate - thats why she said CENTER. I have never known a progressive ever to self-identify as “moderate”.

We all know everyone is different but we ALL know damned well what she meant. If you have to get to the granular explanation you just did, you’re overcompensating for her.

[Hortensis]

34. Dorkzilla, conservative progressivism has been suppressed over these past

30 years, but just as many of them are out there as ever, although some aren't able to put a label on their leanings. It's very important that we understand this so that we do not foolishly, and perilously, reject our natural allies.

Since I'm on the subject, joining our enemies on the right in their efforts to take out one of our most viable presidential candidates is beyond foolish. It's dangerous. If Bernie can convince the nation to elect him president, he certainly can prevail over Hillary without the left joining the right in its vicious attacks.

Any sensible liberal, determined to turn around the slide of this country toward fascism, would be careful to keep her as an option. Just in case.

[dorkzilla]

35. I admit I’d never heard of such a creature, since they seem contradictory, or just another word for

centrist.

Please understand, Hillary was the one to fire the first volley, and although I initially said “we Bernistas must take his lead and not attack Hillary”, yesterday’s hit piece from Brock was the proverbial straw. But I’m glad you said “one of our most viable” because the “Hillary is inevitable” BS isn’t working any better now than it did in ’08.

I said SO MANY TIMES in the last couple of months “lets not do the GOP’s opposition research for them”. I’m not sure why Hillary thought she could let her surrogates do her bad-mouthing as though none of us were going to catch on.

I respect your point of view, but I admit I am no longer going to cut Hillary any slack. As a sensible liberal, I think a vote for the very Hawkish Corporatist Hillary actually is a step toward fascism.

If she can turn off this 50 year old white woman business owner who lives not 10 miles from her, one who *should* be her natural ally, she sure as shit is turning off a lot of other people.

Again, I mean you no disrespect and thank you for taking time to express yourself.

[Hortensis]

36. Okay, and same to you, Dorkzilla. I have my own problems with

Hillary, for that matter. My worst isn't fascist leanings, which I do not think is a problem, but her support for giving taxpayer dollars to private religious schools. I have a real problem with the religious right using my money to teach their kids I'm in league with Satan, blacks bear the curse of Ham, and children born out of wedlock cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and other poisonous swill. I think I just heard myself growling as a wrote that...

[Ino]

7. She is solidly against single payer.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/hillary-clinton-likes-oba_b_4881399.html

Hillary Clinton has confirmed, to a paying audience of 20,000 sellers of electronic health records systems, that she supports Obamacare, and opposes single-payer health insurance.

Speaking to a closed-to-the-press meeting of the "HIMSS14" (Healthcare Information and Management Systems Conference 2014) in Orlando Florida on February 26th, she condemned the Canadian and other nations' single-payer healthcare systems by saying, "We don't have one size fits all; our country is quite diverse. What works in New York City won't work in Albuquerque." The presumption is that what works in Canada cannot work here, that local control must trump everything in order to fix what's wrong with American health care.
(snip)
Back in March of 2008, when Hillary was running against Obama and proposed the same healthcare changes that Obama ended up adopting as President, there was a lengthy New York Times interview with her about healthcare, and she was asked her opinion of single-payer. She said: "I never seriously considered a single payer system. ... I think that, you know, there's too many bells and whistles that Americans want that would not be available." Besides, "Talking about single payer really is a conversation ender for most Americans, because then they become very nervous about socialized medicine and all the rest of this."

Again, she was lying. Most polls showed overwhelming majority support by Americans for single-payer.

[Bonobo]

8. Wow, I did not know she was so direct in opposition to it! nt

[beam me up scottie]

9. Well isn't that interesting...

Good find Ino.

[Hortensis]

10. NO, she is not "solidly against" and never was. She is a pragmatist

Last edited Wed Sep 16, 2015, 05:32 AM - Edit history (1)

who committed to promoting the type of national healthcare system she thought most likely to be achievable against tremendous opposition from the right.

"Talking about single payer really is a conversation ender for most Americans, because then they become very nervous about socialized medicine and all the rest of this." HRC, who lived this reality.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. It wasn't the American people who were against single payer

Healthcare, it was the insurance industry and Big pharma who stopped it AND Right Wingers.

[reddread]

14. aka

her base

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Bingo

:thumbs up:

[Ino]

22. Save us from the pragmatists!

Those who compromise away their values, if they have any.
Who insist that the status quo can never be changed.
Whose version of "reality" is oh-so-regrettable, but nevertheless inevitable.
Who don't believe in having a vision and certainly won't fight for anything better.
Whose cynicism ridicules idealism.
Who think that if something doesn't already exist, that proves it's impractical.
Who don't even TRY.

Contrary to what HRC claimed, the public was overwhelming in favor of single payer, as the excerpt I posted said.

Are you saying HRC really wanted single payer, but tossed it aside in favor of what was achievable? And yet... she still achieved nothing. Bravo.

[Hortensis]

29. If you reject all who do not feel just as you do, what on earth do

you expect to achieve? Anything at all, or is the fun of bloviating about the superiority of your superior dreams on this forum enough?

The goals of others you dismiss so righteously are the White House, control of both houses of Congress, judicial positions at all levels -- including control of the Supreme Court, control of more governorships, more state legislatures, more county commissions, more school boards, even county clerkships across the entire nation.

Politics is always about building consensus, building coalitions of like-minded citizens who can work together. Democracy is always about compromise among many, and achieving those common goals IS victory in a republic. Despise that and despise government of the people and by the poeple. Bernie knows that. He's been joining others to achieve his goals his entire career.

BTW, it IS time for change. What you don't realize is that you are only part of the many millions on the left, middle, and moderate right who want real change. You can be part of it, whether Bernie or someone else turns out to be our nominee, but if you fall away in disappointment over not getting your way right off, it will happen just the same.

[tularetom]

28. Forget about what's good and what's right, let's strive for the mediocre!

You can call it "pragmatism", but it smells an awful lot like "sellout" to most people.

Hillary Clinton - always willing to stand up for what the republicans will accept.

[LondonReign2]

32. Hillary the Pragmatist

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[restorefreedom]

13. "socialized medicine"

this was before bernie even announced. well, i guess we know which side *big pharma, insurance industry* she has always been on

good nugget there.

[raccoon]

20. Mucho thanks for your post. nt

[hootinholler]

15. Funny, I thought she wanted heath INSURANCE for everyone

A subtle difference, but we need health CARE for everyone.

[merrily]

25. It's not really all that subtle, if you compare the US with other industrialized nations.

Highest cost of health care per capita, worse outcomes than about 20 other nations. What a deal!

PS. I knew you were not being literal about "subtle."

[JackInGreen]

19. I remember

Wondering why she sold out.

[mhatrw]

21. Not hard to figure out.

link

According to The Center for Responsive Politics, Democratic senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were the top recipients of donations from the pharmaceutical industry during the 2008 Presidential Election. Obama received over $181,000 in contributions, while Clinton received $174,000.

During the 2012 election, Obama raised more money from Big Pharma than Republican Mitt Romney, receiving $1.6 million.

They also pay her directly.

Name 2014 Lobbying Spending Clinton Speaking Fee
General Electric $20,085,000 $225,500
Biotechnology Industry Organization $10,186,000 $335,500
Qualcomm Inc $9,530,000 $125,000
Pharmaceutical Care Management Assn $4,284,916 $225,500
National Auto Dealers Assn $3,657,000 $225,500
Cisco Systems $3,450,000 $325,000
Advanced Medical Technology Association $3,392,000 $265,000
Ameriprise Financial $3,390,000 $225,500
Novo Nordisk Pharmaceuticals $3,008,000 $125,000
eBay Inc $2,544,325 $315,000
Xerox Corp $1,435,000 $225,000
Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries $1,380,000 $225,500
Premier Health Alliance $1,258,696 $225,000
Council of Insurance Agents & Brokers $1,083,180 $225,500
United Fresh Produce Assn $1,040,000 $225,000
Salesforce.Com $610,000 $451,000
National Council for Behavioral Health $600,356 $225,500
Corning Inc $600,000 $225,500
Deutsche Bank AG $600,000 $280,000
California Medical Association $350,000 $100,000
Total $72,484,473 $4,575,000

[merrily]

26. The best, most terse advice when it comes to parsing US politics: Follow the money.

Although personal ambition and power are certainly in the mix.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. K&R! nt

[MannyGoldstein]

24. Look, let's be real here.. "useless eaters" may be too strong of a phrase,

but you get the idea. Some people contribute more to society than do others, so it follows that... well, you know.

Regards,

TWM

[MoveIt]

30. When you see her feckless advisors, it makes sense.

David Brock's quivering lower lip on that bloomberg interview where he was laughed at for not wanting to "characterize it".

[tk2kewl]

31. remember... she's guilty of being a moderate

which in america means giving lip service to the plight of the marginalized while protecting the privlidged

[dorkzilla]

37. ...and now I find her moderately nauseating. nt

[sibelian]

38. OK. The board tells me there are 37 responses to this thread. I can see FIVE.

May I assume things have gone a little bit diagonal somewhere up there?

[Z_California]

39. Me too LOL

I'm thinking about unIgnoring everyone out of curiosity.