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gobears10

(310 posts)
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:31 PM Sep 2015

Most Sanders supporters care about policy. Most HRC supporters just like her for "who she is."

This is what I've noticed over the past several months. The vast majority of Sanders supporters whom I've encountered care about Sanders because of his policy substance and consistent track record. They want single-payer healthcare, tuition-free college, strong unions, a living wage, Glass-Steagall to break up the Wall Street banks, opposing the TPP, pay equity for women workers, a financial transactions tax, a carbon tax, investment in rebuilding our infrastructure, making billionaires and large corporations pay their fair share in taxes, more progressive taxation, worker-cooperatives, and overturning Citizens United and having the public financing of elections.

They care about income and wealth inequality, low social mobility, inequality of opportunity, and the corrosive influence of money in politics. They don't want endless war, and care about protecting our civil liberties. They want to stop private prisons, end mass incarceration, and effect racial justice. They want to end the death penalty. They want to stop the War on Drugs. They care about giving undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of Bernie supporters really like him as a person, but that's not the primary reason why they are supporting him. Bernie always stays on point, always talks about the issues, and avoids engaging in personal attacks, or engaging in personality politics. He doesn't make it about him. He makes it about all of us, and always says that he can't do it alone, and he needs a strong grassroots movement to retake our government from Wall Street, big business, and the billionaire class. Most people don't know a lot about his personal life or history, and most people don't care. That's not why they are supporting him.

If Elizabeth Warren got in the race instead of Bernie, I'm sure most people who support Bernie now would have backed Elizabeth Warren, and enthusiastically so. There's no "special" love for Bernie based on "who he is." It's all about what he stands for, and what his policy substance is. There just lacks this really strong personal and emotional attachment to the guy personally. Just, after Elizabeth Warren repeatedly declined running, and Bernie jumped in, people who were progressives and wanted to hear a strong progressive talk about the actual issues found a candidate in Bernie. There was no strong, broad based constituency for Bernie before he jumped in, while there was for Hillary, because people just like her as a person.

Bernie doesn't screw around, or talk about frivolous stuff. He doesn't have take for people to talk about his hair, or engage in personal attacks. He doesn't want to make it about him. Bernie Sanders generally don't care that much about his wife, children, family life, his image, his dancing, his singing, or his general persona. In fact, even when he does look disheveled, we don't care, because it's what's beneath the surface that counts.

However, most Hillary supporters I know don't care about policy as much. They don't talk about the issues in the same way that Bernie's supporters do. They praise Hillary Clinton because of who she is, her image, and because they simply just like her a lot personally. They want to see a female president. They feel that she's a symbol for the success of women, and that electing her will break down glass ceilings. They think she's an "inspiration" to them. While all of that is great and important (and I'd have loved to have supported Elizabeth Warren for POTUS if she ran), it's surprising how little policy discussion goes on among Hillary supporters. They talk about how "cute" her grand-child is, about her dancing with Ellen, about how Ellen Degeneres praised and supporter her, and so forth. Not a lot of substance beneath the surface. They praise her for being so qualified and hard-working, how she got a degree from Yale Law School, how she was First Lady, a Senator, and Secretary of State, and so forth.

I don't hear people talking about Keystone XL Pipeline, Citizens United, universal healthcare, the death penalty, institutional racism, for-profit prisons, breaking up the big banks, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, etc., the Iraq War, drone strikes, fracking, and Israel when talking about Hillary. Whether Hillary is a "moderate" as she recently claimed, or a progressive as she claimed before, they don't really care. They just admire Hillary's image and her persona, and don't talk about specific policy as much. They have a strong emotional attachment to her, and people know her because she's famous, and just like her image, so they'll support Hillary regardless of whatever positions she holds. Doesn't matter that she's far more hawkish and militarist than most Congressional Democrats (Vox had a great article about this: http://www.vox.com/2015/4/13/8395917/hillary-clinton-hawk).

On the campaign trail so far, Hillary's also been vague on policy, punting on a variety of issues (Glass-Steagall, Keystone XL Pipeline, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and minimum wage- she won't say if she supports $15 national wage like Sanders and O'Malley). She's given a few policy speeches, but none of them were nearly as detailed as those given by Bernie Sanders or Martin O'Malley so far. Bernie and O'Malley constantly talk about policy, whereas Hillary's been laying low, doing cute, trivial, substance-free events where she focuses on increasing her personal appeal to people.

For the people who are aware of both HRC and Bernie, but pick HRC anyway, I rarely hear them talk about why HRC is superior to Bernie on policy alone. Almost always, it goes back to personality politics, about how she'll be the first woman POTUS, how she's experienced, etc. It's just a general observation that I've seen.

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Most Sanders supporters care about policy. Most HRC supporters just like her for "who she is." (Original Post) gobears10 Sep 2015 OP
I agree, it's more of a persona vs. policy primary race. Juicy_Bellows Sep 2015 #1
Bernie for policy, but Hillary above all to keep the GOP from taking over. Hortensis Sep 2015 #97
i do not think hillary can win in the general questionseverything Sep 2015 #103
I wholeheartedly agree. Juicy_Bellows Sep 2015 #104
Agreed. I see many Republicans, Libertarians and Independents Lorien Sep 2015 #123
libertarians, indies and some repubs will support him because questionseverything Sep 2015 #126
The ability to pull people together...please let it grow. Hortensis Sep 2015 #172
Add to that a very serious trust issue. Bubzer Sep 2015 #125
yes that is an excellent common sense point questionseverything Sep 2015 #128
Correct. Everyone knows she can't win. delrem Sep 2015 #159
You are absolutely right. SheilaT Sep 2015 #144
There are many reasons why I support Sanders, but one of them is I do not think Hillary can sabrina 1 Sep 2015 #112
Well, you guys, we could be in a much worse position. We have a candidate Hortensis Sep 2015 #119
I wouldn't call what the GOP is supporting, conservatism...I'd call it fascism or corporatism. Bubzer Sep 2015 #129
Absolutely agree. The social and religious right have been subverted Hortensis Sep 2015 #163
Good post. Thanks. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #154
I really don't think Hillary can win in the general election. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #153
And Worse Too Many In Both parties Find Hillary Totally Unlikeable billhicks76 Sep 2015 #122
I agree completely. I don't think she would be our best chance to win. nt. Juicy_Bellows Sep 2015 #135
She is said to be likeable enough 6chars Sep 2015 #139
No Offense But billhicks76 Sep 2015 #148
This was Obama's line in 08 6chars Sep 2015 #151
I'm for getting money out of politics aidbo Sep 2015 #2
Hillary thinks we're electing the next "American Presidential Idol" Rainbowdy Sep 2015 #3
Hillary is an idol in her own mind. 840high Sep 2015 #14
She has reason to think so. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #61
Very good points Bubzer Sep 2015 #130
Hillary Reminds Me Of Romney billhicks76 Sep 2015 #149
You forgot? elleng Sep 2015 #4
I'm sorry!! gobears10 Sep 2015 #5
Sounds like a good man Ino Sep 2015 #7
He's a great man, elleng Sep 2015 #8
Well, not before he announced he's running. (nt) Ino Sep 2015 #10
That would be a great pairing! Bubzer Sep 2015 #131
elleng, you are a fantastic advocate for O'Malley. merrily Sep 2015 #18
Thanks, merrily, elleng Sep 2015 #19
I did not know that, but you deserve to be a professional advocate. merrily Sep 2015 #21
+1 Bubzer Sep 2015 #133
This^ . I appreciate elleng's positive approach... ms liberty Sep 2015 #46
She is very knowledgeable about O'Malley, too. Facts at fingertips. merrily Sep 2015 #47
I like O'Malley a lot dorkzilla Sep 2015 #56
i can not get past his broken windows policy as mayor questionseverything Sep 2015 #106
I like Martin O'Malley too. He definitely deserves his own threads. Hortensis Sep 2015 #173
Thanks, Hortensis. elleng Sep 2015 #174
Lol GitRDun Sep 2015 #6
Another OP using a VERY broad brush to characterize all Hillary supporters. pffp! riversedge Sep 2015 #11
Perhaps you can explain a post two days ago to the Hillary group that had this at the end roguevalley Sep 2015 #24
you are the playing the victim with your post. riversedge Sep 2015 #26
BWAHAHAHA! And your victimization about broad brush painting? I asked a question roguevalley Sep 2015 #31
Explain the Bernie poster who.... PosterChild Sep 2015 #143
LOL! OnyxCollie Sep 2015 #120
That's what I see as well. cui bono Sep 2015 #9
That was mean and insensitive. mhatrw Sep 2015 #39
You got me all riled up... cui bono Sep 2015 #81
Exactly. I find it to be the ultimate insult to my intelligence. 99Forever Sep 2015 #69
Seriously. They think we're stupid enough to buy it. And if it's true then they're the stupid ones. cui bono Sep 2015 #83
After thinking a lot about this, I feel that there are 2 sides to this issue. mhatrw Sep 2015 #117
So well said. All of it. senz Sep 2015 #111
Some people agree with her policies and honestly believe she's the best person for the country. gateley Sep 2015 #12
Don't forgt: some think you have to like a candidate's SUPPORTERS, too! n/t Beartracks Sep 2015 #35
Well, lots of people believe incorrect things. n/t Chan790 Sep 2015 #48
You are correct, some are very vested in continuing to move the party to the right LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #60
I don't know about that. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #62
I could easily support a candidate I don't personally like, bvar22 Sep 2015 #98
Thank you. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #155
The Hillary or Obama model, if I may call it that Hydra Sep 2015 #13
I thank you. 840high Sep 2015 #15
plus they rely on brand familiarity Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #76
Most people are not high information voters Hydra Sep 2015 #142
A candidate is a person, not just a bunch of positions 6chars Sep 2015 #141
What a shallow observation. JohnnyRingo Sep 2015 #16
Your subject line ALONE gets my rec. cherokeeprogressive Sep 2015 #17
It's because we Hillary supporters are so shallow... LuvLoogie Sep 2015 #20
I'm voting for Hillary. No offense to any of the other candidates supporters. Laser102 Sep 2015 #121
Could you please explain WHY you are and always will support Hillary? JDPriestly Sep 2015 #157
Thanks for that question; I'll be surprised if there's an answer. Ron Green Sep 2015 #178
True on all points. zentrum Sep 2015 #22
You've got THAT right! n/t vkkv Sep 2015 #23
Off topic artislife Sep 2015 #32
I also like the sig line. Is that original? Scuba Sep 2015 #88
Sig line, yes, I came up it with after years of hearing and seeing references to "God" dressed in vkkv Sep 2015 #113
So this is yoour *opinion* MohRokTah Sep 2015 #25
Everyone on DU has an opinion. And none seem shy about expressing it. SleeplessinSoCal Sep 2015 #27
for goodness sake, put on an overcoat at least! dorkzilla Sep 2015 #59
Your sig line-- Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #79
3 are not Demcrats. eom MohRokTah Sep 2015 #89
Good luck with your POO. Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #90
Yeah, you think Corbyn's a reason to vote Tory. sibelian Sep 2015 #87
Its an opinion many here clearly agree with, and so do I. Bubzer Sep 2015 #134
And is a minor subset of the Democratic PArty MohRokTah Sep 2015 #136
That would be very hard to prove, but I'd look at whatever evidence you have on that. Bubzer Sep 2015 #137
We can find he evidence to back it up within ourselves. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #156
Your point? Character and personality win elections in this country. McCamy Taylor Sep 2015 #28
Yeah! 30 Recs for Hillary Clinton is the ideal candidate to win big in the general! McCamy Taylor Sep 2015 #29
Wow! 32 recs for "Clinton's got what it takes!" McCamy Taylor Sep 2015 #30
WTF? lovemydog Sep 2015 #33
I am a Bernie Sanders supporter... malokvale77 Sep 2015 #34
It's okay, neither does she until her corporate-fascist "friends" tell her who she is today. n/t Chan790 Sep 2015 #49
Voters who voted based on policy are rare, particularly for POTUS Recursion Sep 2015 #36
Hence the problems with our system of government. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #63
Seriously? Voting for the lovelorn? LuvLoogie Sep 2015 #70
Are you afraid you'd choose the wrong candidate Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #71
Milton Bradley rules? LuvLoogie Sep 2015 #72
Yes Recursion Sep 2015 #74
Well, there ARE worse voting systems in the world. Scootaloo Sep 2015 #78
I think most hrc suporters on DU are voting for neoliberalism PowerToThePeople Sep 2015 #37
working for neoliberalism mhatrw Sep 2015 #41
You give them more credit than I would. senz Sep 2015 #108
What I hear most is that Sanders can't win. mhatrw Sep 2015 #38
When they say that stupid crap I hear "the people can't win". L0oniX Sep 2015 #75
Which is precisely the right take on it senz Sep 2015 #109
Could it be that a lot of them are corporate friendly retirement investors? L0oniX Sep 2015 #110
But that is soo Republican. How do they call themselves Dems? senz Sep 2015 #114
401k investors are in both parties but Dems act like Wall Street is a problem? L0oniX Sep 2015 #118
I don't think it works that way. senz Sep 2015 #150
There are so many posts about the supporters rather than the candidates. treestar Sep 2015 #40
And I believe that you really believe this. Nt SouthernProgressive Sep 2015 #42
Does seem to be something of a tendency, yes. sibelian Sep 2015 #43
No it didn't. I lived in the UK under Maggie. GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #116
We might be about to escape!!!!!!!!! WAHOOOO!!!! sibelian Sep 2015 #158
And a crazy guy I used to know when I lived there... GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #164
ugh... well it just goes to show we have fuckwits like everyone else... sibelian Sep 2015 #165
Yes. He's always posting screeds about immigrants GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #167
They're a slithery bunch, that lot. sibelian Sep 2015 #168
This guy was never a Labour voter. GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #169
Neither was I, for a long time! Brought up Tory. sibelian Sep 2015 #170
Does your mum realize that if she came back she would be Zombie Maggie? GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #171
Someone needs to make that movie! sibelian Sep 2015 #175
Have you read Hilary Mantel's short story about Margaret Thatcher? GoneOffShore Sep 2015 #179
Most Sanders supporters live in a fantasy world. Clinton supporters are more grounded in reality wyldwolf Sep 2015 #44
Sensible Woodchucks all agree, it must be so LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #57
Are you kidding me? pinebox Sep 2015 #82
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #84
OK this is part of the problem kenfrequed Sep 2015 #85
Here's the actual problem wyldwolf Sep 2015 #91
You obviously didn't read what I wrote. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #96
The Clinton fantasy is that she appeals to the 63% n/t eridani Sep 2015 #140
My biggest concern is winning and keeping the Republicans from taking over this country. DCBob Sep 2015 #45
True dat. There's just too much at stake. oasis Sep 2015 #107
My biggest concern is that we will never get money out of politics passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #145
If we lose the GE with Bernie then how does that help your concern? DCBob Sep 2015 #162
Yet, HRC is the one cranking out policy papers and Bernie got none. SonderWoman Sep 2015 #50
H> campaign spends millions producing stuff. Can that stuff be said to be HRC's? HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #52
Care to provide a link to your claim? SonderWoman Sep 2015 #53
You don't seem to understand the use of links HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #55
You made a pretty 'matter of fact' statement. SonderWoman Sep 2015 #58
That's their Modus Operandi in_cog_ni_to Sep 2015 #65
If I accuse you of murder, should you have to prove you're not? SonderWoman Sep 2015 #68
The excuse for voting for Hillary in_cog_ni_to Sep 2015 #51
You're right. I like Hillary because of who she is. She will deliver on her policy ideas. N/t livetohike Sep 2015 #54
That's what many of us are afraid of. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #64
+1000 n/t in_cog_ni_to Sep 2015 #67
exactly nt questionseverything Sep 2015 #105
As soon as her advisers finish writing them up for her. n/t senz Sep 2015 #115
Not sure I agree KaryninMiami Sep 2015 #66
Ford, General Mills, Maytag, IBM Babel_17 Sep 2015 #73
This is why policy matters. Buying the voters is kind jwirr Sep 2015 #93
Of course. You can't be for Hill's policies, because they shift morningfog Sep 2015 #77
+1000 whathehell Sep 2015 #80
I'm not sure she even knows "who she is" tularetom Sep 2015 #86
I don't believe even Hillary5.0 could answer that question. bvar22 Sep 2015 #100
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Sep 2015 #92
If Elizabeth ran - or if we have some combination TBF Sep 2015 #94
So Sanders supporters are good/smart and HRC supporters are evil/dumb emulatorloo Sep 2015 #95
Thank you. Metric System Sep 2015 #101
Gee, duh, um, er, thanks. Metric System Sep 2015 #99
That's the result of "branding", to create an emotional attachment separate from fact n/t arcane1 Sep 2015 #102
You are wrong that Hillary supporters don't care about policy TheLastMen Sep 2015 #124
Thanks for your post. I am a Bernie supporter. Yours is one of the first posts by a Hillary JDPriestly Sep 2015 #160
I appreciate your civil, intelligent response TheLastMen Sep 2015 #177
I could care less about the e-mail controversy personally, but I realize that Republicans so JDPriestly Sep 2015 #180
Appreciate it TheLastMen Sep 2015 #181
You make some good points. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #183
Hillary = Another Moderate Republican President cer7711 Sep 2015 #127
Hmm, really? Seems like Bernie has the personality cult on his side. kjones Sep 2015 #132
It's Sanders "policy" that is the issue NorthCarolina Sep 2015 #138
Seems to me I hear a lot of people telling other people what they think and why passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #146
Funny colsohlibgal Sep 2015 #147
Thanks. Good analysis. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #152
106 recs for "Hillary wins people's hearts!" 2016 is a lock up for the Dems. McCamy Taylor Sep 2015 #161
108. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #166
Bernie wins thinking peoples minds. L0oniX Sep 2015 #182
Many Democrats are on the conservative side cheapdate Sep 2015 #176

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
1. I agree, it's more of a persona vs. policy primary race.
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:39 PM
Sep 2015

Conversely, Trump is the persona on the right yet he gets lumped in with Sanders because they are both labeled outsiders. Once we can get the primary air clear, I hope we can get to a policy vs. policy race. If that happens, Sanders is our next president.



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
97. Bernie for policy, but Hillary above all to keep the GOP from taking over.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 03:37 PM
Sep 2015

I vote policy AND pragmatism -- who can win. Hillary has my vote now.

I don't think I've ever voted for someone because I "liked" him or her. They're not running to be my next-door neighbor, after all.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
103. i do not think hillary can win in the general
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 04:06 PM
Sep 2015

she is hated by the repubs like no other, they have spent the last 20 years teaching their children to hate her, nothing will motivate repub turn out like hillary at the top the dem ticket

and her support among us on the far left is weak,turn out will be low

she does not appeal to the independent set either

i really like bernie's policies and his record on those policies, i trust him and i really think he is our last, best chance to turn the tide back to some kind of balance...he is the dems best chance at victory in the general election

Lorien

(31,935 posts)
123. Agreed. I see many Republicans, Libertarians and Independents
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:09 PM
Sep 2015

signing on with Bernie's campaign. I've only seen hardcore party loyalists supporting Hillary.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
126. libertarians, indies and some repubs will support him because
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:13 PM
Sep 2015

he voted against the patriot act, because he supported snowden and because he offered the amendment that got the fed audited

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
125. Add to that a very serious trust issue.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:13 PM
Sep 2015
Is it possible to win the White House if more than half the electorate thinks you’re dishonest?

Hillary Clinton may yet put that question to the test. It’s not the kind of challenge any candidate would relish, but two new polls released on Tuesday underlined the presidential hopeful’s difficulty in persuading the public of her integrity.

Both those polls found Clinton deep underwater when voters were asked whether they viewed her as honest and trustworthy.

An ABC News/Washington Post poll found 52 percent of people answering “no” to that question, compared to 41 percent who expressed trust in Clinton.

A CNN poll made even grimmer reading for the former secretary of State. It found 57 percent of adults asserting that Clinton is not honest or trustworthy, and only 42 percent saying that she is.

Those figures were enough to send a shiver down some Democrats’ spines.

“We’re about 30 to 60 days away from real nervousness, if not panic, in the Democratic establishment,” said one strategist who declined to be named, citing a fear of retribution by Clinton loyalists.



http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/243844-hillary-clintons-honesty-problem

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
128. yes that is an excellent common sense point
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:18 PM
Sep 2015

her negatives are so high, her election is really impossible

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
144. You are absolutely right.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 11:14 PM
Sep 2015

I have been trying to get people to understand that there simply aren't enough women out there who are so desperately longing for a woman President, that they will cross party lines to vote for her. Hillary's negatives are far higher than most here understand, and much, much worse than her supporters realize.

The OP's comments about the difference in what Hillary supporters say vs what Bernie supporters say is both accurate and telling.

If Hillary gets the nomination, I will be in genuine despair. I honestly don't think that she can actually win, or at least her win would not be as guaranteed as her supporters believe.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
112. There are many reasons why I support Sanders, but one of them is I do not think Hillary can
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:51 PM
Sep 2015

the Republicans. Latest polls eg, show her losing to Trump of all people, slightly behind Bush who is hardly at 3% at this point.

She appeals mostly to the Dem base, but doesn't have the crossover appeal necessary for the GE.

Bernie otoh, is gaining support even from Republicans, many of whom are saying how surprised they are that they agree with him on some of the major issues, Money in Politics eg, Wall St corruption, preserving SS which is hugely popular with a majority of Americans. Libertarians, disappointed in Rand Paul are also getting interested in Bernie.

Hillary is way too much of a hawk for most Americans now, who have seen the horrors of Iraq now that they have had more than a decade to realize they were lied to, that we are no safer now, in fact it appears, LESS safe than we were then.

Imo, if Hillary does win the nomination, Repubs will win the GE.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
119. Well, you guys, we could be in a much worse position. We have a candidate
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 06:42 PM
Sep 2015

whose policies we really like and who has developed truly inspiring support, which no professional predicted could happen and which might just continue to climb and spread, and catch fire.

And we also have a backup choice whose strength and support far exceed what today's misleading polling data show. This is a tremendously good thing for us also.

Because now, and in the end, the enemy is a conservatism that is completely antipathetic to what we believe in, whose ethical and economic backwardness has brought our nation shame and economic failure, and that threatens to destroy the liberal, Enlightenment principles our nation was established on.

The principles laid out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are LIBERAL principles. Protecting them is what, at base, this election is about.

The kind of deep conservatism dominating today's right DOES NOT BELIEVE ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL as far as rights protected by government are concerned. Read about the conservative personality! This is huge. Conservatives by nature believe instead in a Naturally Just World where deserving people tend to rise and undeserving people naturally sink -- and where government interference in this brutal sorting out only upsets the natural order. This is at the heart of their opposition to any government that does not promote their ideas and their comfort with the interference of people like the Kochs with public policy.

Strong conservatism does not believe all citizens have a right to be treated equally by government.

Strong conservatism does not believe our government has a duty to to secure basic rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness to all citizens.

Strong conservatism does not believe the government should protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Strong conservatism does not believe in separation of state from domination by their religion.

Strong conservatism in most cases believes the duty of citizens to obey government authority exceeds the duty of authority to protect the citizens. How much depends on socioeconomic status.

Strong conservatism believes in forcing all foreign opponents to capitulation. It is opposed to any action that results in less than complete victory. This nationalist aggression lead to the buildup of MADD in the Cold War and the doomed invasions of North Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq when wiser experts knew we would fail to achieve their goals. They do not care to learn and now want to force Iran to complete capitulation by any means necessary.

THIS, AND MORE, IS WHAT THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT. Not just Bernie or Hillary, or another Democrat.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
129. I wouldn't call what the GOP is supporting, conservatism...I'd call it fascism or corporatism.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:19 PM
Sep 2015

The modern GOP is unrecognizable compared to pre Bush Jr. and Reagan conservatives.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
163. Absolutely agree. The social and religious right have been subverted
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 07:51 AM
Sep 2015

by business into supporting economic deconstruction of progressive laws and programs and a return to laissez-faire, PLUS lots of new laws shifting even more power to Big Money. Economic conservatives tend to favor this anyway, but they also have been swayed away from their natural tendency to oppose change, especially from what works well, into experimentation.

However, what I was pointing out is more basic -- the personality-based ideology underlying most decisions and the attitudes toward how our nation should be run of strong conservatives.

Moderate conservatives may share this general orientation but tend to much more supportive of the principles our nation was founded on, like equality, accepting of differences among peoples, and supportive of a sensible degree of government involvement in running a nation of over 300 million citizens. They often worked across the aisle in the past but have currently been purged from Congress and most red-state governments.

While conservatives think the equality thing is silly at best, they're very high on "liberty." However, notice that social and religious conservatives only support liberty to think and behave like them. Liberty that allows others to be different is a problem. Thus, their resentment of people who speak a second language, even in their homes, and even if they actually speak English quite well with others. They'd stop that if we let them, with whatever means are required. And much else.

I didn't mention the AUTHORITARIAN PERSONALITY, but that's also a real threat to our democratic republic. The authoritarian personality was discovered after WWII when scientists tried to find out why the people of an advanced, white, traditionally Christian nation would dutifully murder millions of their fellow citizens when ordered to.

Authoritarians are virtually EXCLUSIVELY CONSERVATIVE, especially almost synonymous with social and/or religious conservatives, the more strongly social conservative the more strongly authoritarian. Here in the U.S. social cons/authoritarian followers voted for Bush Two, accepting him as their leader, and their support for everything his administration did only dropped below 22% or so at the very end when even they were forced to realize their leadership's many failures. It was the failure that angered them, not the betrayal of trust, lies, torture, opportunistic war and millions of deaths, or laws broken at the highest level.

BTW, there's been a lot of research on authoritarians now, including on the web, although much is hidden from easy searches behind technical terms to avoid too much right-wing backlash. Bob Altmeyer of Canada remains the foremost person who has put himself out there to educate the public with his on-line free publication of "The Authoritarians." It's a fascinating and fun, if also shocking, read. His limited line of research has been extensively built on and further developed since then, with a lot of new terminology, but his original conclusions are still accepted mostly intact and have never been refuted.

Oh, and then there are the authoritarian LEADERS... Scary! Read and start picking them out...

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
153. I really don't think Hillary can win in the general election.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 05:59 AM
Sep 2015

It may be unfair, but the well has been poisoned when it comes to her campaigning in a general election. The Republicans will really be rough on her. She worked on the committee involved in the impeachment of Nixon. They will never forgive her.

Bernie actually has a better chance in the general election because he focuses on the issues and does not indulge in negative campaigning.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
122. And Worse Too Many In Both parties Find Hillary Totally Unlikeable
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:04 PM
Sep 2015

That makes her an impossible winner in the general. She will lose.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
148. No Offense But
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 02:18 AM
Sep 2015

Are you in touch with reality. Half her own party doesn't trust or like her. That's very bad. The other side we can expect that from but when so many of our own don't then the writing is on the wall. We can't just roll the dice and bury our heads on the sand because we "think" she could win.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
151. This was Obama's line in 08
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 04:44 AM
Sep 2015

Ultimately we have to roll the dice anyway, right? Actually, I would rather she not make such an effort to be more likeable. Her strength is her knowledge and experience, but she is being too cautious showing them. These strengths show up more in genuine debate as will happen in the general.

 

aidbo

(2,328 posts)
2. I'm for getting money out of politics
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:42 PM
Sep 2015

I believe Bernie is the best candidate for that issue. I'll vote for Hillary if she's the nominee, but will vote for B in the primary

 

Rainbowdy

(18 posts)
3. Hillary thinks we're electing the next "American Presidential Idol"
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:43 PM
Sep 2015

when we need to be voting based on current issues and crises before us.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
61. She has reason to think so.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:46 AM
Sep 2015

If you look at how we run elections, it usually is a popularity contest, rather than a clash of policies. So she is simply playing the game the way it's usually played.

It's an outside hope that things have gotten so dire that enough voters are actually going to pay attention to policies.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
149. Hillary Reminds Me Of Romney
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 02:25 AM
Sep 2015

And her corruptingly close relationship with the Bush Family is beyond unseemly. Bernie is our country's only hope.

elleng

(130,974 posts)
4. You forgot?
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:47 PM
Sep 2015

Here's why I support Martin O'Malley

1. Ended death penalty in Maryland
2. Prevented fracking in Maryland and put regulations in the way to prevent next GOP Gov Hogan fom easily allowing fracking.
3. Provided health insurance for 380,000
4. Reduced infant mortality to an all time low.
5. Provided meals to thousands of hungry children and moved toward a goal for eradicating childhood hunger.
6. Enacted a $10.10 living wage and a $11. minimum wage for State workers.
7. Supporter the Dream Act
8. Cut income taxes for 86% of Marylanders (raised taxes on the rich).
9. Reformed Maryland’s tax code to make it more progressive.
10. Enacted some of the nation’s most comprehensive reforms to protect homeowners from foreclosure.

Mother Jones magazine called him the best candidate on environmental issues.
Article here:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/12/martin-omalley-longshot-presidential-candidate-and-real-climate-hawk

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/32760-martin-o-malley-slams-democratic-national-committee-for-rigging-debates

gobears10

(310 posts)
5. I'm sorry!!
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:50 PM
Sep 2015

I'm a Bernie supporter, but I'll definitely praise Martin O'Malley for being very policy-focused, and releasing comprehensive reports with specific and detailed proposals. His supporters are also very policy focused as well. So you definitely have a good candidate!! His climate change plan, Wall Street reform plan, and criminal justice reform plan were all great!! And I give him props for taking on the DNC and its Hillary favoritism. Too bad O'Malley isn't getting much traction, but he's pretty progressive: $15 minimum wage, Glass Steagall, public option for healthcare, against TPP, pro overtime pay, pro hiking capital gains, etc. He's a good guy, and my second choice in the primary behind Sanders.

Ino

(3,366 posts)
7. Sounds like a good man
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:52 PM
Sep 2015

Unfortunately, I just never heard of him before, whereas I've known of Bernie Sanders & what he stands for for a long time.

How about Sanders/O'Malley pair up?!

elleng

(130,974 posts)
8. He's a great man,
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:56 PM
Sep 2015

and I'm ASTOUNDED you never heard of him before.

Sanders/O'Malley's a good pair up.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
21. I did not know that, but you deserve to be a professional advocate.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:11 AM
Sep 2015

Last edited Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Chances are good that O'Malley will be President at some point. As I have posted before, if Sanders were not running, I would be supporting O'Malley with as much as is in me.

dorkzilla

(5,141 posts)
56. I like O'Malley a lot
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:29 AM
Sep 2015

And would be supporting him if Bernie hadn't announced his candidacy. I love the idea of a Sanders/O'Malley ticket!

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
106. i can not get past his broken windows policy as mayor
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 04:29 PM
Sep 2015

i have had duers say he has evolved but when i saw him interviewed on msnbc the host looked like he was trying to give omally a chance to apologize for broken windows but omally doubled down and said,"you look at what works and learn"

i am paraphrasing but to me that sounded like he abandoned broken windows because it wasn't working not because it was unconstitutional

i guess i am old fashioned but i want a potus that believes in the Constitution....

anyways, you are a good advocate for him and that is great, i would not support omalley for the vp slot either but maybe a cabinet position

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
24. Perhaps you can explain a post two days ago to the Hillary group that had this at the end
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:38 AM
Sep 2015

of it in parentheses: (Normal People Group)

Now, continue your victimhood stuff.

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
31. BWAHAHAHA! And your victimization about broad brush painting? I asked a question
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:25 AM
Sep 2015

about a fact. It isn't whining. But nice try.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
143. Explain the Bernie poster who....
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 10:13 PM
Sep 2015

..... called me a fascist for supporting hillary.

It can be atributed to being human - all too human.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
120. LOL!
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:41 PM
Sep 2015

It's more than that.

http://wikisum.com/w/Converse:_The_nature_of_belief_systems_in_mass_publics
In Brief

A great majority of people neither adhere to a full, complete set of beliefs which produces a clear ideology nor do they have a clear grasp of what ideology is. This is measured by a lack of coherence in responses to open-ended questions. Ideology of elites is not mirrored by the masses and voter revolt to a political party does not reflect ideological shifts.

Converse analyzes open-ended interview questions to measure conceptualization of ideology. He concludes that the liberal-conservative continuum is a high level abstraction not typically used by the man in the street because of response instability and lack of connections made between answers. There is no underlying belief structure for most people, just a bunch of random opinions. Even on highly controversial, well-publicized issues, large portions of the electorate do not have coherent opinions. In fact, many simply answer survey questions as though they are flipping a coin.

Though some political sophisticates do structure their opinions in a larger ideological framework, such structure is rare. This level of political sophistication (one's "level of conceptualization&quot is correlated positively with the respondent's level of education, degree of political involvement, and amount of political information.

Key points: Most people do not have strong belief systems; that is, they do not think ideologically. A minority of people have fixed preferences and answer survey questions consistently, but most simply give random answers. Most people do not interpret politics through an ideological lens.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Alcibiades/28

You need to make a distinction between what is part of the party platform for voters and what we know from political science. Of course it's not desirable to tell voters that they are ignorant and make vote choices on an irrational basis, but we know empirically that this is true, at least for many voters, enough to provide the margin of victory in many elections.

It would be great if voters behaved according to the prescriptions of normative democratic theory, but that's not what we have seen. It's lamentable that more people don't know this: political science, as a discipline, has not been very good at disseminating what it has learned to the public, even to the most knowledgeable folks who might be interested. The article OnyxCollie cites is an old one, dating to 1964, but it's remarkable the extent to which Converse's findings have formed the basis for subsequent research, and how his central findings have largely been confirmed: this is all the more remarkable given the extent to which there are many political scientists from diverse schools of thought who seem to desperately want this to be falsified. You can quibble over the numbers, but what Converse found has been very robust:

1. It is possible to create an ordinal ranking of the public by assessing their level of political knowledge.
2. There are some people at the top of the scale who seem to exhibit a consistent and ideological set of political behaviors. These ideological voters are fairly few in number.
3. There are a much larger number of people who are essentially "low-information voters," who know less about politics, and behave in ways that seem to be fairly random. This group is much larger than the former group.

For many people, this is a depressing finding. It should be noted, BTW, that while Converse does see the level of political information as correlated with education, he does not claim that it is determined by it: in fact, he specifically rejects the conclusion that his findings are the result of some ignorant "lumpenproletariat" that is incapable of knowing its own self interest or acting in ways that are consistent with what it believes.


How do you know that what you're talking about is accurate?

We Are All Confident Idiots
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/confident-idiots-92793/

The American author and aphorist William Feather once wrote that being educated means “being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don’t.” As it turns out, this simple ideal is extremely hard to achieve. Although what we know is often perceptible to us, even the broad outlines of what we don’t know are all too often completely invisible. To a great degree, we fail to recognize the frequency and scope of our ignorance.

In 1999, in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, my then graduate student Justin Kruger and I published a paper that documented how, in many areas of life, incompetent people do not recognize—scratch that, cannot recognize—just how incompetent they are, a phenomenon that has come to be known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. Logic itself almost demands this lack of self-insight: For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack. To know how skilled or unskilled you are at using the rules of grammar, for instance, you must have a good working knowledge of those rules, an impossibility among the incompetent. Poor performers—and we are all poor performers at some things—fail to see the flaws in their thinking or the answers they lack.

What’s curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.

This isn’t just an armchair theory. A whole battery of studies conducted by myself and others have confirmed that people who don’t know much about a given set of cognitive, technical, or social skills tend to grossly overestimate their prowess and performance, whether it’s grammar, emotional intelligence, logical reasoning, firearm care and safety, debating, or financial knowledge. College students who hand in exams that will earn them Ds and Fs tend to think their efforts will be worthy of far higher grades; low-performing chess players, bridge players, and medical students, and elderly people applying for a renewed driver’s license, similarly overestimate their competence by a long shot.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
9. That's what I see as well.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:00 AM
Sep 2015

And also, the criticisms of the opposing candidates are based on policy from the Bernie supporters, but the Clinton supporters seem to try to make up bs about Bernie in order to criticize him. Then when they see no one is buying it they turn to whining about how his supporters are so mean. The meanest people on DU in my experience are now Hillary supporters. The most vile OPs I've ever seen on DU were posted by Hillary supporters in attempts to smear and swiftboat Sanders. It's really ugly.

I've also never seen Sanders supporters posing as Clinton supporters and then concern troll and claim they left to support Clinton because Sanders supporters are so mean. That is the most pathetic thing I've seen on DU. It's not even a smart thing to claim because if you really allow anonymous internet users determine who you are going to back in an election then you are not a very smart cookie and you obviously do not care about policy at all.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
39. That was mean and insensitive.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:05 AM
Sep 2015

I agree with Sanders on all the issues, but I'm voting for Clinton now!

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
69. Exactly. I find it to be the ultimate insult to my intelligence.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 10:15 AM
Sep 2015

How anyone can think for one second think it's an effective tactic, leaves me shaking my head.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
83. Seriously. They think we're stupid enough to buy it. And if it's true then they're the stupid ones.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:14 PM
Sep 2015

The last "supporter" who turned to Hillary used to say how she just didn't like Hillary but somehow Hillary became the one she chose due to Bernie supporters. Please.

Also, the whole racial divide on DU is in large part created by and fueled by Hillary supporters. First it was about Bernie, then it was about his supporters and then it got escalated to some crazy shit on here. Several PoC don't come here any more because of it. One was basically called a traitor to his own race because he supported Sanders, and any PoC who supports Sanders is called an "outlier" by one of the most vocal PoC on this board. Well not so vocal atm, and that's a good thing imo. Some of the meanest and most flippant DUers on here I have found out are PoC and they are the ones complaining the loudest. Sometimes you get back what you give out with race playing no part in it what so ever. Not saying racism doesn't exist, but it sure as hell doesn't give anyone a free pass to be a dick.

Okay, I've gotten into territory I've tried to avoid on here but fuck it. It's true.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
117. After thinking a lot about this, I feel that there are 2 sides to this issue.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 06:19 PM
Sep 2015

On one hand, there are some Bernie Sanders supporters who have to understand that many POC have very legitimate and understandable reasons to put social and racial justice concerns ahead of economic justice concerns. We all agree (or at least should all agree) that personal and institutional racism is a huge problem in our society. We perpetuate that problem when we dismiss those concerns as secondary to economic justice for all.

On the other hand, there are some Clinton supporters who have done their damnedest to use the differing priorities of white Sanders supporters and BLM activists as a divisive wedge to alienate people who basically agree on all these issues. Sure, white Sanders supporters can be racially insensitive. But the same is true of white supporters of every candidate, including Clinton. It's not as if Clinton's white supporters are immune to white privilege. There is no reason that Sanders supporters and BLM cannot work together to fight institutional and personal racism other than the petty identity politics of desperate Clinton supporters looking for any possible advantage. Yes, even well-meaning white people need to be educated about racism as a general rule. But sowing acrimony and creating false divisions across racial lines for political gain is the oldest, easiest, and dirtiest trick in the book.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
111. So well said. All of it.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:40 PM
Sep 2015

But I especially appreciate the reference to concern trolls changing their minds because of mean Sanders supporters. Such dishonest, manipulative emotional blackmail.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
12. Some people agree with her policies and honestly believe she's the best person for the country.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:19 AM
Sep 2015

And regardless of the candidate, you have to like who you're supporting -- if you didn't like him/her you couldn't be a supporter,

I think it's unfair to lump Hillary supporters in with morans like Pailn supporters because they just liked her. Hillary has earned her place, regardless of whether or not we agree with her policies.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
60. You are correct, some are very vested in continuing to move the party to the right
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:38 AM
Sep 2015

They honestly want the Democrats to continue to be more like the Republicans of the 1980s, at least economically.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
62. I don't know about that.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:50 AM
Sep 2015

I could support someone I thought was a total ass, if I also felt they would do the best job. But I have to admit I don't think a total ass who ALSO supported the same policies I do would ever stand a chance at getting elected, since most of the total asses out there with any real support also have totally repulsive policy ideas.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
98. I could easily support a candidate I don't personally like,
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 03:43 PM
Sep 2015

provided that candidate has a consistent, multi-decade track record, and hits the major issues I care about.
I'm not looking for a Wife or a BFF.... or even a House Guest.
I don't care if they are male or female...ugly or good looking, cheat on their spouses, fat or slim, or smell bad.

I'm looking for a top notch manager with the right positions concerning race, transfer of wealth TO the already rich, Too-big-to-Fail, foreign Wars, the bloated Military Budget, the Environment, Persecution of Whistle Blowers, CU, BB voting, NSA & Un-Patriot Act, the Free Trade Scam, and the destruction of the Working/Middle Class.

In fact, I would vote for someone I dislike...IF he/she is on the right side of the above issues.
I strongly dislike LBJ, but wish he were President today.


[font size=3]A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus![/font]
-Rev Martin Luther King Jr.



[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."

--- Paul Wellstone[/font]
[/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center]
[/font]

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
13. The Hillary or Obama model, if I may call it that
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:38 AM
Sep 2015

Is what our politicians are pushing for as the new normal- we like the image, we vote for it, we support said person no matter what they do or don't do.

It seems there are still a fair number of people who will not or simply cannot swallow that idea. I happen to be one of them.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
76. plus they rely on brand familiarity
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:37 PM
Sep 2015

What methods are used to get people to buy a Whopper over a Big Mac are the same employed to entice us to vote for our next president and 99% of the electorate will take the bait. Then complain about what they got.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
142. Most people are not high information voters
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:47 PM
Sep 2015

And that is a feature of the current system. About nothing coming out of the MSM is true, you have to take a lot of time to dig for yourself, and then be called a nutcase or unpatriotic when you bring the issues you found out about up.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
141. A candidate is a person, not just a bunch of positions
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:19 PM
Sep 2015

You have to think about their judgment, their competence, knowledge courage, ethics, communication and leadership. Great positions aren't worth much of you can't get things passed, and there is more to the job than positions. If Hillary supporters are looking at the person but not the positions as well, that is a mistake, and if Bernie supporters are looking at the positions but not the person, that is also a mistake.

JohnnyRingo

(18,636 posts)
16. What a shallow observation.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:58 AM
Sep 2015

I could just as easily parrot the popular opinion of political pundits that most people support Bernie Sanders as merely a protest against a polarizing HRC.

I doubt either seemingly biased theory has real merit.

LuvLoogie

(7,011 posts)
20. It's because we Hillary supporters are so shallow...
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:10 AM
Sep 2015

we could never be as authentic as a Bernie supporter. You're right. It was your ninth paragraph, bernsplaining how you're better than us, that convinced me.

But because I am shallow and your excellent argument is lost on such a feeble mind as mine, I am still voting for Hillary.

But keep trying...

Laser102

(816 posts)
121. I'm voting for Hillary. No offense to any of the other candidates supporters.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:57 PM
Sep 2015

I think they are all great candidates compared to the other side. But I am and always will support Hillary.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
157. Could you please explain WHY you are and always will support Hillary?
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:19 AM
Sep 2015

Because that is what the OP is asking about, and it would help to understand whether the premise of the OP is correct if you went into some detail about why you will support Hillary.

Thanks.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
22. True on all points.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:20 AM
Sep 2015

It's not a personality contest and is dangerous if it becomes one. I'd support O'Malley or Warren if Sanders wasn't talking about the policies he is.

Bernie says his greatest fear is that he would do something on the campaign trail that hurts the ideas.

Actually looking forward to the political futures of O'Malley and Warren. If not this time—then 2020 or 2024.

 

vkkv

(3,384 posts)
113. Sig line, yes, I came up it with after years of hearing and seeing references to "God" dressed in
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:52 PM
Sep 2015

white with a big white beard on a gold thrown or floating on a cloud.

Finally it hit me, Man Created THE CHRISTIAN GOD! ! ! And in the image of a man.

I am obviously an athiest... if I were to CHOOSE a spiritual path? Buddhism, would be it.

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,123 posts)
27. Everyone on DU has an opinion. And none seem shy about expressing it.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:47 AM
Sep 2015

Any who write as if it were factual and proven, is exposing themselves.

See? I just exposed myself.

dorkzilla

(5,141 posts)
59. for goodness sake, put on an overcoat at least!
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:36 AM
Sep 2015

You must be new to this exposing yourself thing...it's the element of surprise!

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
156. We can find he evidence to back it up within ourselves.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:14 AM
Sep 2015

All we have to do is ask ourselves why we prefer the candidate we are backing.

For me, it is first Bernie's views on the issues and then what I derive from his views on the issues about his judgment and his value.

That's it for me in a nutshell.

My own experience corroborates what the OP says.

One of the frustrations for Bernie supporters on DU is that when we ask Hillary supporters why they support Hillary, we don't get answers about her views on the issues. It's very hard for us to understand that maybe it is not her views on the issues that endear her to her supporters because it is Bernie's stances on the issues that endear him to us.

So maybe you could share with us why you support Hillary?

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
28. Your point? Character and personality win elections in this country.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:19 AM
Sep 2015

Really surprised to see this thread rated up so much, since it says (in essence) Clinton has what it takes to win the general by a landslide.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
33. WTF?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:44 AM
Sep 2015

I'm looking not only at where they stand on policy, but on how likely they are to implement good policy with the strongest possibility of success. That's one reason I'm looking at O'Malley too! I'm currently undecided. I think your observations are shallow and based on solely on rhetoric. I don't care about rhetoric. And yes, I'm still considering voting for Bernie. But I wouldn't insult anyone else here for they may have their reasons and they may involve not only policy but implementation and accomplishment and likelihood of success.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
34. I am a Bernie Sanders supporter...
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:47 AM
Sep 2015

precisely because I know who he is.

Most HRC supporters just like her for "who she is."


I have no clue from one day to the next, who Hillary Clinton is.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
49. It's okay, neither does she until her corporate-fascist "friends" tell her who she is today. n/t
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:44 AM
Sep 2015

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
36. Voters who voted based on policy are rare, particularly for POTUS
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 03:26 AM
Sep 2015

But they tend to crowd into activist websites.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
63. Hence the problems with our system of government.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:54 AM
Sep 2015

Maybe our ballots ought to not actually list candidates by name, but merely state a number of their distinct ideas on various topics. You tell the machine what's important to you, whose statements you agree with, and it matches you to a candidate without telling you their name...

Sort of like that 'iSideWith' website. You choose the policies and it tells you who your best match is.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
37. I think most hrc suporters on DU are voting for neoliberalism
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 04:38 AM
Sep 2015

Hrc is just the current neoliberal flag bearer.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
108. You give them more credit than I would.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:21 PM
Sep 2015

I figure if they were working for neoliberalism they'd sing its praises once in awhile. Instead, all they do is tout 1) the fabulousness of Hillary, 2) the electability of Hillary, and 3) the last-ever feminist hope that is, and can only be, Hillary. All of which, except for the second, are illogical, and the second is losing its tenuous logical basis day by sinking-poll-numbers day.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
38. What I hear most is that Sanders can't win.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:00 AM
Sep 2015

Democrats agree with him on the issues, but think Hillary is more beholden to our corporate masters and hence has a better shot at not getting shot down by our overlords, either literally or figuratively.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
109. Which is precisely the right take on it
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:29 PM
Sep 2015

Bernie is about the people. Hillary is about Hillary. If one were to condense the entire campaign down to one small meme, this would be it. And it's true, absolutely true.

I don't know how her supporters reconcile it in their minds.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
110. Could it be that a lot of them are corporate friendly retirement investors?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:31 PM
Sep 2015

IOW I got mine ...and we don't care that you don't.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
114. But that is soo Republican. How do they call themselves Dems?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:52 PM
Sep 2015

It's the opposite of liberal. We're supposed to be the party that cares about others.

I think they're more like celebrity worshipers who can't think about anything as boring as issues -- just about the sparkly personalities of famous people. Or, perhaps even closer to the truth, the Brits who worship their royalty and follow their every move. That's a kind of person.



 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
118. 401k investors are in both parties but Dems act like Wall Street is a problem?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 06:27 PM
Sep 2015

Hell ...there's even one person here that came out and confessed they and their family are or were bankers. Of course anyone with a lot invested in stocks isn't going to want to see their golden calf attacked so no wonder they don't have a problem with the billionaire backed political puppets. Seems that only the progressive wing of the Dem party is out to do something about the billionaires playing power moves with our Democracy ...by voting for Bernie. When they say it takes money to win ...I hear "it takes billionaire friends to win".

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
150. I don't think it works that way.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:11 AM
Sep 2015

There are plenty of small 401k investors, some of whom are already retired, who understand and respect the founding principles of this country and care about what kind of nation, and world, their children and grandchildren will inherit. There could be (and are) plenty of Bernie supporters in that group. If Bernie becomes president, he won't eliminate the stock exchange; he's got more pressing and meaningful things to do. Taxing the billionaires, reinstating Glass-Steagall, and breaking up the too-big-to-fail banks won't destroy the stock exchange.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
40. There are so many posts about the supporters rather than the candidates.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:06 AM
Sep 2015

Let's say you can prove the Bernie supporters are better people than the Hillary supporters. How does that help Bernie win the election?

I would wonder that the huge crowd of voters in the middle aren't even worse people? And they will refuse to vote for Bernie because they are such bad people?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
43. Does seem to be something of a tendency, yes.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:16 AM
Sep 2015

The thing that really irritates me is this whole "first female president" thing. I'm from the UK, we had a female Prime Minister - HAH - that did NOT work out very nicely.

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
116. No it didn't. I lived in the UK under Maggie.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 05:57 PM
Sep 2015

She put the corporatist writing on the wall and Banksy hasn't been able to paint over it.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
158. We might be about to escape!!!!!!!!! WAHOOOO!!!!
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:23 AM
Sep 2015

CORBYN! CORBYN! CORBYN! (airpunching)

He wants to renationalise stuff!

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
164. And a crazy guy I used to know when I lived there...
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:42 AM
Sep 2015

He wants Nigel of the UKIP.

But hey, he lives in Tunbridge Wells, so what can you expect

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
165. ugh... well it just goes to show we have fuckwits like everyone else...
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:03 AM
Sep 2015

Sigh.

Oh, well, at least they'll never get anywhere.

I actually feel sorry for UKIP and the kippers. All they've got is this vague idea that Something Has Gone Terribly Wrong but they don't know what it is...

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
167. Yes. He's always posting screeds about immigrants
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:10 AM
Sep 2015

And bits of old Enoch Powell speeches.

And the odd thing? His slightly younger brother is married to a woman from Thailand. Don't know how he reconciles that with his views.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
168. They're a slithery bunch, that lot.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:26 AM
Sep 2015

They genuinely believe they aren't racist. Then they go and get these hideously racist members and sort of cuddle them behind the scenes... It always comes out in the end.

A lot of kippers are disaffected Labour voters...

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
169. This guy was never a Labour voter.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:33 AM
Sep 2015

Even when he was 22 and working for me. He was always railing against the 'nanny state'.

And his father was a strong supporter of the local Conservative party, so he came by his politics somewhat naturally. Funny how his brother didn't absorb the same nonsense.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
170. Neither was I, for a long time! Brought up Tory.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:58 AM
Sep 2015

Bought the whole thing.

I got better! This means I have difficulty excusing others who cling to the old ways... I'm a bit acerbic with them these days...

My mother still wants Thatcher back.

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
179. Have you read Hilary Mantel's short story about Margaret Thatcher?
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 07:46 PM
Sep 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Mantel
"In September 2014, in an interview published in The Guardian, Mantel confessed to fantasizing about the murder of Margaret Thatcher in 1983, and fictionalized the event in a short story called "The Assassination of Margaret Thatcher: 6 August 1983". In the interview she expands on her hatred for the former British prime minister. Allies of Thatcher called for a police investigation, to which Mantel sarcastically responded, "bringing in the police for an investigation was beyond anything I could have planned or hoped for, because it immediately exposes them to ridicule".

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
44. Most Sanders supporters live in a fantasy world. Clinton supporters are more grounded in reality
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:24 AM
Sep 2015

The policies Sanders supporters push are not that different from those Clinton supporters also support. The difference is Sanders has little or no chance of getting ANYTHING done if, on the outside chance, he got elected. Why?

1. 'Compromise' is a dirty word to Sanders and his supporters. In a Republican-led Congress, he'll either, to quote Rep. Joe Moakley (D-Mass.) "scream and holler but be all alone" or he'll compromise with the GOP and be just another 'progressive' who broke your heart.

2. Even though he has no coattails, let's pretend he gets elected and brings a Democratic congress in with him. The fact remains he isn't very liked by elected Democrats. Just count the number of endorsements he has (ZERO.) You think Jimmy Carter's relationship with the Democratic congress was chilly? A Sanders one will feel like Siberia. As former Rep. Barney Frank said, "Bernie alienates his natural allies. His holier-than-thou attitude—saying in a very loud voice he is smarter than everyone else and purer than everyone else—really undercuts his effectiveness.”

A Bernie presidency will be impotent - unless magic fairy dust is real.

 

pinebox

(5,761 posts)
82. Are you kidding me?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:05 PM
Sep 2015

Seriously, is that a joke?

There's common issues where Bernie stands together with even the staunchest of Tea Party reps, these include breaking up banks and ending corporate welfare. Look at the issues of drones and NSA with Sanders vs Ron Paul. THAT is reaching across the aisle.

The right absolutely hates Hillary, with a complete and utter passion filled with disdain and they have for years. If she's elected, you'll see an utterly awesome amount of bullshit that will literally never end. It would be downright stupid and make what we have now with gridlock look like a Carnival cruise to the Bahamas.

I can't stand Ann Coulter BUT she has a point when she says "Hillary will make the GOP show up in droves, Sanders is the real threat" (paraphrased) and she is correct.

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
84. Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:16 PM
Sep 2015

The difference in policies is very real: Keystone XL, fracking, $15 minimum wage, Glass-Steagall, breaking up big banks, institutional racism, GMOs, TPP, war as a last resort, healthcare, Patriot Act, completely free college tuition, bankruptcy policy for middle class, weed, and many more.

Compromise is how Bernie got the benefits for veterans, battling McCain. Compromise is how Bernie amended the ACA to get community health centers for the people. Bernie's power when elected will come from the people marching on Washington and making Congress "an offer they can't refuse." This is his meaning of political revolution and distinguishes him from the naivete of other politicians.

DINOs in Washington will be attacked by the people in the same fashion as the GOP. See above. I believe many Dems will respond favorably to an FDR 1944 platform. Barney Frank is a lying gangster. Oops, I insulted gangsters. Barney Frank is a lying bankster.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
85. OK this is part of the problem
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:24 PM
Sep 2015


1)
Compromise requires that you have two positions that actually meet somewhere on some issues. With the standard Clintonesque triangulation you end up instead having the compromisers stepping forth as the leaders and defining the compromise position as being one of the positions while leaving behind the original progressive position.

Once you define the leadership of the Democrats as being halfway towards the republican market position you have already abandoned most of the progressive positions. Instead you end up meeting halfway between the middle and the right.

This was plainly seen in the healthcare debate where Rahm, the blue dogs, and the the finance committee decided to shuck every progressive position just to get the vote of Olympia Snowe so that they could claim a bipartisan victory and end up with a reformed version of the Bob Dole plan from 96.

Single payer universal? No. Medicare for all? No. Public option? No.

We knocked most of those things right off the table before even going to negotiate with republicans. BEFORE negotiations. An honest compromise would have been putting single payer on the table and making them put what they want on the table and then moving a little bit. That did not happen and that is emblematic of the kind of compromise for compromise sake politics that we engage in, that coincidentally also happens to please large corporations.

2)
In an election, "coat tails" usually refers to the number of people you can get to show up on election day and check the candidates marked 'D.' Look at Bernie's crowds and look at Hillary's. Who do you think has more enthusiasm and grass roots energy?

Barney Frank is a decent guy, but he is in the tank for Hillary so this characterization of Bernie seeming arrogant is a load of crap and not really worth listening to. There are a lot of times I agree with Barney, but not about this. Also, now that he is on the board of directors at New York Signature bank I am a lot more suspicious of his positions regarding a candidate that has promised to break up the big banks and get Wallstreet under control. Sorry Wyld, but no sale on this one.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
91. Here's the actual problem
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

Compromise is defined as
a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

Your belief that the Democratic side must adhere to some strict progressive ideology is just not true.

You compromise from a strategic political position. If you have less political capital you don't get as much. The 'all or nothing' progressive meme it's a dangerous and stupid political position.

From a general election perspective Sanders is less popular in Clinton. He's even less popular elected party members. He has very little if any coat tails.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
96. You obviously didn't read what I wrote.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:54 PM
Sep 2015

Compromise means Starting from an honest position that your supporters are in favor of and ending up somewhere acceptable. I gave you an example where that had results that were very far from where we wanted to be.

The public option would have been the reasonable compromise but it was pushed off the table before it was even put forward.

You just decide to ignore all of that and accuse me and those that think like me of being a purist. That is not a reasoned position and it is, ironically enough, more inflexible than what the purism you accuse me of.


Also, your sentence: "He's even less popular elected party members" doesn't make any sense at all.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
45. My biggest concern is winning and keeping the Republicans from taking over this country.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 07:37 AM
Sep 2015

Hillary is our best bet.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
145. My biggest concern is that we will never get money out of politics
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 11:15 PM
Sep 2015

I'm pretty sure we won't with Hillary. I think it may be possible with Bernie. I think until we do this one big thing, we will forever be at an ever widening schism and stalemate.

And Bernie being popular or unpopular with congress critters has nothing to do with it. It's all about the money. The people in congress are siding with the money, because that's their bread and butter and keeps them in congress. If money were eliminated from the process, they'd be free to stand up for more progressive ideologies. I think you might be surprised at how many would side with Bernie if their jobs didn't depend on them siding with money.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
52. H> campaign spends millions producing stuff. Can that stuff be said to be HRC's?
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:22 AM
Sep 2015

Seems there is a high probability they are being produced using ghost writers.

Are they hers like the comments she frequently makes that come off as scripts written by others and selected by producers with whom she doesn't interact?

HRC seemingly didn't even know that her emotion was 'sorry' or that the sorry was about 'confusion' over the use of a private server until after she woke up after going to bed having doubled down on the 'it was all legal argument'.







HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
55. You don't seem to understand the use of links
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:28 AM
Sep 2015

A person doesn't need a link to ask a question or to state an opinion based on perception of public events

 

SonderWoman

(1,169 posts)
58. You made a pretty 'matter of fact' statement.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:33 AM
Sep 2015

But okay, if you say it's just an opinion then so be it.

in_cog_ni_to

(41,600 posts)
65. That's their Modus Operandi
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:59 AM
Sep 2015

They love sending people out on link hunts. to deflect. Just ignore their requests. If they want a link, let them go digging for one themselves.

in_cog_ni_to

(41,600 posts)
51. The excuse for voting for Hillary
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:21 AM
Sep 2015

that I find interesting: I'm voting for her because she's the only one who can win the GE.

LOL...

If every Hillary supporter who says that actually voted for Bernie, he'd win with 80% of the vote!
It's just an excuse.

I can only surmise they all support her RIGHT of center policies:
The TPP - which will cause even more job losses
XL PIPELINE - which will destroy our environment
Wall street thieves
No Glass-Steagall
Fracking, which is destroying our environment
No Medicare for all
Koch brothers and their ilk buying our government
Unaffordable state Universities
Prisons for profits - SHE TAKES CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THEM!
Wars, wars, wars and more wars - DISGUSTING!

Supporting all that just to have a female president or "just because" it's Hillary, turns my stomach.

KaryninMiami

(3,073 posts)
66. Not sure I agree
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 10:00 AM
Sep 2015

I am a huge fan of Sanders. In many ways I think it be a fabulous president and has the potential to facilitate positive change. But has no real fine policy experience and this is the time we need someone with that. I'm not sure he could really get anything done with the Congress stays in the state that it's in. In spite of his surging numbers, I have deep concerns that he could beat a Republican. Finally his inroads into minority voters are tragically low – yes he's making progress but it's not fast enough. He is exciting the left and far left and progressives in a big way but I don't believe he's appealing to the party center and we need all of the party to win this.
That's why in spite of the fact that she's not a perfect candidate and there are many many things that concern me about hsome of her alliances, I believe she is the better choice to lead the country.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
73. Ford, General Mills, Maytag, IBM
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:14 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Brands that testing shows consumers respect. The Clinton team has spent years of effort building up the HRC brand.

But now, with the primaries, it's off to the showrooms. Consumers/voters will lean toward the trusted brand. But the store/primary schedule still allows for "just looking" and "no questions asked returns" on products/candidates. So brand loyalty will get tested.

This of course goes to the problem with DWS and the debate schedule. She's the store manager that gets a commission by pushing one brand over the others. She wants to keep you from comparing.

It's what HRC herself was doing with the superdelegates. In this analogy they represent the buyers for the big chains. "Here's our fall of 2016 lineup, sign right here." And yeah, just like in the business world, you have to wonder if any of them get their backs scratched.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
93. This is why policy matters. Buying the voters is kind
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:26 PM
Sep 2015

of frowned on in the Democratic Party. Thank you.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
77. Of course. You can't be for Hill's policies, because they shift
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 12:41 PM
Sep 2015

with the winds and the tides. It's purely a cult of personality.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
86. I'm not sure she even knows "who she is"
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 01:27 PM
Sep 2015

There have been so many re-inventions, iterations and versions, can anyone say for sure who the "real" Hillary Clinton is?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
100. I don't believe even Hillary5.0 could answer that question.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 03:47 PM
Sep 2015

I wish a reporter would ask that question.

Response to gobears10 (Original post)

TBF

(32,067 posts)
94. If Elizabeth ran - or if we have some combination
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:30 PM
Sep 2015

of a Bernie/Elizabeth (or Elizabeth/Bernie) ticket I think most progressives will be fine with it.

emulatorloo

(44,131 posts)
95. So Sanders supporters are good/smart and HRC supporters are evil/dumb
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 02:37 PM
Sep 2015

That seems to be the point of your OP.

I know HRC supporters in the real world. They aren't SATAN and they aren't stupid either. Rather than demonizing them I talk to them about why Sanders would make a better President.

I don't demonize Hillary either, even though she's too conservative politically for me.

TheLastMen

(3 posts)
124. You are wrong that Hillary supporters don't care about policy
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:12 PM
Sep 2015

Speaking as Hillary supporter of course her views matter to me. And despite your implication, she has discussed issues like college tuition, a proposal for early voting, a plan to deal with the problem of police brutality, a plan to deal to help turn wages around in the Uber economy.

If there is any difference between Hillary and Bernie supporters on issues this is what I think it is. For Bernie fans, every issue is a deal breaker. You can agree with her on 10 issues-and there are many things that she and Bernie agree on. But if she doesn't immediately damn the TPP-then that's it. She's dead to Bernie supporters.

For me, I feel like I know who Hillary is. I've been a big fan of her since 1992 when everybody was killing her for saying she's not Tammy Wynette. Here I am 24 years later still defending her against the relentless anti Hillary echo chamber in the media.

I know where she stands on most issues and I know that I will agree with her on most things. But Bernie fans seem to see every issue as a litmus test.

For me, my goal is not to elect the candidate who talks the most about issues on the stump but who can actually get issues passed in the White House.

It's not about simply stump speeches but the art of actually governing.

If Bernie were elected he'd be much more isolated as he's not a Democrat. I know, Bernie fans don't think anything but a beauty contest for who is the truest progressive is all that matters.

But in the dirty real world of actual politics you need a party to get things done. Many Congressional Democrats would not work with him nearly as much.

And I still want to know why he's running as a Democrat with all the disdain he has heaped on this party for years. Does he now think there is a difference between the two parties? If not then why run as a Democrat?

You know what issue matters a lot to me? A woman's right to choose which is more or less outlawed in many GOP states. If there is any hope of pushing back we'll need a liberal Supreme Court for the first time since the early 80s. So to me what matters most is to elect a Democrat-which Democrat is not nearly as important as that we have a Democrat as any Democrat is better than another Bush-who is worse than his brother on things like abortion-he thinks that rape victims shouldn't have abortions- and Medicare-or Scott Walker who thinks that even if the life of the mother is in danger she still should be prohibited from having an abortion.

I also care about immigration and gun control where Bernie's record is a little more ambiguous.

So issues matter-if I didn't agree with Hillary on most issues I wouldn't support her-and wouldn't be a Democrat. For me when I vote it's more like voters in parliamentary democracies in Europe. I vote more for parties than the vagaries of this candidate vs. the other.

I'm less concerned with discovering the 'true progressive'-many Bernie fans just repeat that this is what he is again and again-but rather getting the party elected where any of its candidates will be better than the GOP.


JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
160. Thanks for your post. I am a Bernie supporter. Yours is one of the first posts by a Hillary
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:36 AM
Sep 2015

supporter that actually explains why you support her from a policy point of view.

I think you have a point about the TPP.

The TPP is a big deal-breaker for me when it comes to Hillary.

I know something about the NAFTA courts, and I utterly oppose entering into any more agreements that would require us to obey orders from one of those international arbitration courts. We should be ending our involvement with agreements that impose those kangaroo courts' decisions on us. Speculative damage (estimated future profits from business investment) and, inevitably no matter how much it is denied, decisions from a "court" that contradict democratically determined policies within our country.

No to the TPP.

You really hit the nail on the head as to the issue that most separates me from Hillary. Second is her poor judgment and failure to ask the questions Bernie asked before voting on the Iraq War Resolution. Bernie asked how we would govern Iraq if we got rid of Hussein and what we would do when the country fell into civil war after the invasion. He asked those in a speech before Congress when he advised the nation and Congress that he would not support the resolution.

Those are questions that I think that Hillary and other members of Congress should have asked. They all demonstrated poor judgment by failing to ask them.

So you are right the TPP is a no-Hillary for me as is her Iraq War Resolution vote.

I just think Bernie is a much, much stronger candidate.

But I appreciate your talking about issues. It is really true that very few Hillary voters admit to supporting her views on things like the TPP, NSA eavesdropping and analyzing Americans' electronic communications, etc.

Generally, Hillary supporters say that she is electable (I disagree) or that they think she can get things done. I disagree about both of those things.

Bernie is the one who has the most experience getting things done in Congress. He was one of the co-founders of the Progressive Coalition. He has sponsored many bills and gotten amendments passed. He has been in Congress since at least 1992 and knows a lot of people.

I think that a lot of members of Congress are a bit shocked at how quickly Bernie has connected and been recognized by voters. They are probably unaware of Bernie's show Brunch with Bernie on Thom Hartmann's show. That show has been broadcast every week for a long time. It passed unnoticed by the beltway in-crowd. Now the listeners to that program have emerged as a large block of Democrats who support Bernie.

I truly believe that when the beltway Democrats understand where Bernie has come from and that he built his base one voter at a time, one question on Brunch with Bernie at a time, they will accept his leadership. They are Democrats. So is he. He has caucused with the Democrats and supported Democratic values and policies for years. It's just that the beltway Democrats haven't been paying attention to grass-roots Democrats. Or grassroots Democratic radio.

TheLastMen

(3 posts)
177. I appreciate your civil, intelligent response
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:43 PM
Sep 2015

Seriously. My experience on the Internet is that once two people don't agree on anything it soon descends into name calling and recrimination.

At least I proved to you a Hillary supporter can discuss policy! LOL. I have to admit I have had some negative apprehensions of Bernie supporters as well. A lot of that I think is colored by my experience at Jane Hamsher's old site where once they heard I was an Obama supporter-this was during 2011 before the primaries started, and they were talking constantly about primarying POTUS-they had little to say to me accept I was an Obamabot troll who should be quiet.

I have to take issue with your last paragraph-Bernie may be running for the Democratic primary but he is not a Democrat. This is a matter of fact.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181

He used to call himself a 'socialist' and now he calls himself a 'democratic socialist' which I'm unclear what it means-does Hugo Chavez qualify as a democratic socialist?

I also don''t see your argument that he will get more done than Hillary. As he's not a Democrat it will be tougher for him even when the Dems agree with him.

If you look the world over, democracies function with parties. It will be tougher for him to build a governing coalition.

You make her experience sound like chicken feed! She was a US Senator for 8 years and then secretary of State for 4 years.

I also don't get why he's a better candidate. Is it because of emailgate? Are you counting on this faux scandal to help Bernie?

I think that Bernie till now has had a cakewalk. He hasn''t been tested. Hillary has been razzed by the entire Beltway media for six months over this silly email hoax, Biden's nonexistent campaign, and 'Bernie Momentum.'

I'm not surprised that you know nothing of her policy positions as the media never lets us hear them they are so consumed with talking about her emails. Andrea Mitchell spent half her interview with Hillary on emails.

I will be interested to see how he does in a debate where he might get contradicted.

IN a way until now, Bernie has had it both ways. He gets to play Gandhi and never attack her directly. But the media beats the heck out of her everyday over Trey Gowdy's conspiracy theories.

If Bernie has closed the gap in some places how much of that is due to emailgate?

One last point. Now everyone is saying what a terrible candidate she is. But in 2011 the same media were saying that Biden was such an albatross because of his gaffes that maybe Obama should replace him with Hillary.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/08/03/fmr_gov_wilder_obama_should_drop_biden_and_run_with_clinton.html

The lesson: the media always throws spitballs at whichever Democrat is actually running. I think you are falling for the
Beltway hoax.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
180. I could care less about the e-mail controversy personally, but I realize that Republicans so
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 08:58 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Sun Sep 13, 2015, 09:46 PM - Edit history (1)

successfully paint her as a boogey man that it weakens her candidacy to a very treat degree.

Personally, I think they pick on her because of her remote association with the Nixon committee. It seems like that is too long ago, but Republicans, remember, associate themselves with the symbol of an elephant. And elephants are reputed to have long memories.

I just am for Bernie because I could practically write his speeches. He speaks for me, and I think that is the key to his popularity.

I hoped Elizabeth Warren would run.

I saw a lot of the fraud and the causes of the 2008 recession. I do not trust Wall Street or the financial sector of our economy at all because of what I saw. On issues concerning the regulation of our financial and business sectors, I agree with Bernie, not with Hillary.

I believe that we need to make the investment in our young people that tuition-free post-secondary public education would mean. My family has been in the US since very early on. My ancestors were farmers. They benefited from the ability to homestead or to buy farming properties that had not been fully developed or maybe not developed at all for mostly sweat equity. We don't have the land to give away to industrious, bright young people today. But we can give them education. It is part of the tradition of America to give our young people the opportunity to make their way without burdening them with debt. As I said, that is how we developed our country. That is how we will help our country progress.

I favor raising the cap to fund better Social Security. I don't think Hillary does.

I oppose the TPP and all trade agreements that will impose a judicial system, an arbitration system outside that provided in our Constitution on our country. Our Constitution protects the ownership of private property -- 5th and 14th Amendments. We should not agree to any treaty of other agreement that might impose laws on us other than those agreed to and passed by our democratically elected legislatures and our properly appointed courts.

I do not want to eat Chinese pork. I want the meat I eat to be identified by country of origin. I guess that is not allowed any more thanks to our WTO agreement. We do not need that. We especially do not need to be liable for speculative damages claimed by foreign executives. I don't think Hillary will oppose the TPP. Bernie does.

Bernie is stronger on environmental issues than Hillary is.

Also, Bill Clinton signed so many bills that I disagree with during his eight years in the White House, and Hillary claims to have been part of that administration: the repeal of Glass-Steagall, Welfare Reform, the Telecommunications Act, and so many more bills that I think took us backward not forward.

Then Hillary voted for the Iraq War Resolution and the Patriot Act. I don't understand how anyone with a law degree could possibly vote for the Patriot Act with such a vague and overly broad definition of terrorism. I watched a video of her discussing her vote for the IWR with a group from Code Pink who had been to Iraq. It was seeing her walk away frpm them with an arrogant look on her face after they had told her the truth, seeing her walk away arrogance on her face that made me decide I could never vote for her.

Bernie asked the right questions about both the Iraq War Resolution and the Patriot Act. He was amazing. You can watch the videos on YouTube. The links to some of Bernie's speeches are posted in the Bernie Group here.

I have thought a lot about why I support Bernie. He is the only candidate running that I can vote for.

I don't watch TV news. We don't have cable.

I attended Bernie's speech in the packed stadium here in Los Angeles.

My support for Bernie is well considered, I think you will agree.

Democrats are coming around to Bernie. The top ranks of the Party will also support Bernie once he demonstrates he can win. His ideas are more those of traditional Democrats than are those of Hillary and other potential "Democratic" candidates.

Thanks for the ciivl discussion.

TheLastMen

(3 posts)
181. Appreciate it
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 11:15 AM
Sep 2015

The civil conversation I mean. I mean it's not just with Bernie supporters I find it's very tough to have a civil conversation with anyone you don't agree with as usually people don't want to talk anymore.

The top ranks won't come around to him. He has a history of dismissing the party as Tweedle Dee to the GOP's Tweedle Dum.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-08-20/bernie-sanders-deal-with-the-democratic-devil

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/15/1409803/-Introducing-Bernie-Sanders-the-Hypocrite

He has in recent years softened his line against the Dems some. But he still is not registered as a Democrat and claims to be something other than a Dem. I think this allows him to have it both ways-as he gets to both be something 'different' in some vague way yet still get the credibility of running from one of the big parties. If he were running in a different party he wouldn't get the coverage he gets.

At this point no Democratic party insider has endorsed him.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/09/11/bernie-sanders-has-zero-democrat-endorsements/

So even if he were to win the Presidency he'd have no Bernie Coalition. I mean it's been hard enough for Obama to get anything done but at least he has the support of the entire Democratic party behind him.

On the email thing, I'm not saying you care about it and I agree Bernie would never stoop so low. Still he benefits from it. She has had very negative media coverage from day one of this campaign. He on the other hand has not been negatively attacked at all.

So in that sense I think his poll numbers are not so impressive considering the advantage he has had in coverage.

What gets me sometimes is Bernie fans tell us all the great things Bernie supports not realizing that Hillary does too. I mean do you not know she has come out with her own comprehensive college plan?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/10/us/politics/hillary-clinton-to-offer-plan-on-paying-college-tuition-without-needing-loans.html?_r=0

She's called for the end of mass incarceration and unlike Bernie this was before BLM got in everyone's face at these rallies.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS608US608&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=hillary%20clinton%20end%20mass%20incarceration&oq=hillary%20clinton%20end%20mass%20incarceration&aqs=chrome..69i57.9727j0j4

She also has proposed a pretty radical plan to fight GOP voter suppression which the last 15 years has been a terrible problem. She calls for 20 days of early voting.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hillary-clinton-early-voting-nationwide

She also believes in raising the MW and has a comprehensive plan to raise wages and standards of living in the new Uber Economy.

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/07/hillary-on-uber-economy.html

On Social Security expansion I believe she hasn't come out either way. Now I know in world of Bernie fans this proves she's against it, but this shows to me one problem they have: in their mind every issue is black and white. Some issues genuinely have good arguments on both sides.

I take her at her word that she's undecided-not decided against it as Bernie fans presume.

She has however come out for raising the cap on SS payroll taxes which I think is a good move-thought the ideology of SS since FDR was always that you had to let SS taxes be regressive as it makes it more politically acceptable. SS is not means based and this made it popular with everyone not just the poor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-social-security_55d1d44de4b07addcb43546e

I will say this: I think Bernie fans tend to take campaign rhetoric a little too seriously. Let's face it I can in all sincerity promise Policy X as a candidate but when I actually am in office and discover the logistics, I see that my proposal won't work.

People forget that FDR didn't run on the New Deal but on balancing the budget and cutting govt spending. Lincoln ran on promising not to end slavery. FDR ran in 1940 on not going into WWII.

This is why I mentioned above but you glossed over the fact that for me the party matters more than the vagaries of this vs. that candidate.

Even if Bernie fans were right-which I contest-that Bernie is the 'True Progressive' Hillary is progressive enough for me. I care about winning elections and building coalitions that can actually pass the policies I support not who is the furthest Left in a stump speech.

I see getting a Democrat in office in 2017 as much more important than making sure we have the most progressive candidate win the primary.

But again, Hillary is liberal.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/

On gun control and immigration in fact she is more liberal.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
183. You make some good points.
Mon Sep 14, 2015, 05:59 PM
Sep 2015

I think that the problem is that people really have been viewing the Democratic and Republican Parties as Tweedle-dee-dee (a little beter than) Tweedle-dee-dum.

I think your argument about voting for Hillary because Bernie won't be able to get anything done would persuade more of us if Obama's approach or at least what he claimed was his approach of working with Republicans and conservative Democrats had worked. Obama talked as though (as does Hillary) he would administer his office as a true liberal. But he quickly bent over backwards to work "with" Republicans who had no intention of working with anyone but of getting only their way, only their way.

So I think many of us figure we might as well vote for a person who comes out fighting in the first place and has no illusions about trying to work with a bunch of losers whose loyalties lie with the oligarchs (because they are dependent on the oligarchs for the money they think they need to get elected) and not really with us.

Obama allowed Scott Walker to walk over public employees in Wisconsin.

The privatization debacle of government jobs has reached an absurd extent. First, it has all but destroyed the concept of a civil service. When you speak of histor,, you will surely recall that the civil service was a concept sponsored to a great extent by Teddy Roosevelt as he fought corruption in office. It was not a new idea that he thought of, but he took it seriously and tried to implement it and sold it to the country. The privatization swindle is slowly but surely destroying our civil service and returning us to the government by favor, by machine politics, the government that oligarchs and their corporations sponsor. The corruption. It's there. It's palpable. Measurable but not yet measured.

Hillary and Bill were in the White House for eight years. I do not want to see a repeat of the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the appointment of Greenspan to the Fed, the many Friends of Bill appearing in top spots in the government (government by Goldman-Sachs has to end), the Telecommunications reform Act, the Welfare reform, all the awful bills that Clinton signed without so much as a murmur of protest and generally without vetoes.

We have seen the same with Obama. What is more, Obama failed to prosecute serious war crimes and continued the policy of eavesdropping and researching the social networks of innocent Americans who just mind their own business. The Patriot Act and the spying on ordinary Americans has the effect of chilling speech. It is wrong. And it should be stopped. It's easy to get a subpoena when one is needed. No need to spy.

Further, we need laws that prevent employers from accessing on-line information about prospective and current employees' families and political and religious speech. That should be prohibited.

The Clinton years also saw the passage of laws that lead to our now phenomenally exaggerated percentage of individuals convicted of non-violent crimes in prisons.

Talk about a way to cut some of our government overspending: shut down our prisons and do more sentencing of people convicted of non-violent crimes to public service jobs that do not amount to slave labor but are effective alternative sentencing.

This is particularly needed in our juvenile justice system.

The Clinton era is not one that I view as nearly as successful in terms of righting the course of our nation as it should have been.

I mention Teddy Roosevelt because he was a bull in a china closet as is Bernie with regard to his own party -- possibly nominated for president just to silence him. Ah, McKinley. His assassination changed the course of our history.

Roosevelt was a war monger and some of his policies were horrible, but we owe so much to his reform.

It's time for a bull in the china closet again.

Obama is a great man, and I applaud his attempts to work for peace in his foreign policy as well as his wonderful humanity, but we need someone who can arouse voters to the need to throw the Republican bums out of Congress.

I don't think Hillary is the person of the moment. And her economic policy is very suspect. I know she has hired Stiglitz as her economic adviser, but for how long will she continue to listen to him after she is elected. Or will she turn to the usual Goldman-Sachs bunch of greedy money-grabbers as soon as she checks in the day after her inauguration.

I, like so many Americans, have been very disappointed by the last couple of Democratic administrations in terms of domestic policy. Why in the world do we have the kinds of excessive force killings by police officers in America aimed at African-American populations when our president is, himself, African-American?

Why did Obama not confront the injustice of these police killings when he came to office at the beginning of his term?

And why hasn't the money being earned from the advanced technology we enjoy today and the trade that has cost so many American jobs trickled down to us? We cannot be expected to embrace still more trade agreements when the ones we have rewarded the very rich investors so grandly and left the rest of us with meager incomes and mostly just lots of debt.

The grievances of Americans today are many. They don't make good advertising copy. They make good video material, but getting funding for documentaries and attracting audiences to movies that remind us of and prove the misery we live on a day-to-day basis -- not easy.

So that is why Bernie is doing so well. There is an enormous disconnect between what the newscasters see as America's state of being and what each individual American is living. There is a reason for that. Misery does not sell. Who wants to think about buying a new car just after being reminded of what the TPP will mean for our wages?

For those of us who are older, and I am retired, it is heartbreaking to watch our children vie for jobs and try to save to buy houses and live in a country in which the injustice and the selling out of their birthrights have become the every day reality that it is.

The competition for good jobs, for housing, for the things our kids need and that we need is extreme today. And the cities are growing rapidly. Yet the rich are getting embarrassingly richer by the minute. That is economic inequality. I see it on my street of modest homes and struggling families.

Check out the housing prices in places like Silicon Valley where the jobs are. Then look at the statistics on the populations of some of the less populated states. That is an unacceptable situation. But the coveted jobs are in places like Silicon Valley. In really livable areas of the country, there are no jobs, and vice versa. It's hard to pay the bills in the areas in which jobs are plentiful.

There are so many reasons that Americans are looking for hope and wishing to reject the Party regulars and the inertia and injustice they stand for and accept.

Sorry for the long posts.

I realize that Bernie and Hillary are not so far apart on some of the issues, at least if you just listen to their speeches and read the blurbs summarizing their policy proposals. But trade is a big one. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA. I and most Americans laughed when Ross Perot warned about that sucking sound. But, hey, it is still audible. We hear it in our lives.

And Bill Clinton should have been a house afire on the environment. Obama should be doing double what he is. We owe it to our grandchildren to cut way, way back on all fossil fuels. California could probably heat and cool and electrify the nation if we just put better and better solar panels on all our roofs. Germany has been doing that. And its climate is pretty rainy and miserable. Why aren't we leading in the alternative energy game? Because big money dictates policy in our country. That's why.

Shame on every immoral person who tells us that we cannot elect Bernie or any candidate who is not sold out to the idol worship of the almighty dollar. We have to do what is right or our human life will become extinct. That's the real choice we face, unpleasant as it is, exaggerated as it sounds to say it.

And Bernie's concept of free public post-secondary education sounds extreme until you realize what children go through to try to pay back student loans and how those loans perpetuate and worsen class differences.

Let's take a kid who qualifies for and manages to get into a medical school but whose parents don't have the money to pay room and board and tuition for the years of medical school. Maybe that student starts medical school already owing some for his/her college years. He/she finishes medical school with a debt of maybe $250,000, does a residency for a few years at modest pay and finally after that can start really paying off the debt. The doctor has to choose a job that pays very well or go into the military where the debt will at least in part be written off. That doctor starts his/her career with a huge problem. He/she may be earning enough money to repay the debt, but doing further residency work to specialize? That's a better choice for those who do not owe so much money. Then there is the issue of marrying and starting a family. Lots of doctors do that. But it is really tough to tell your future spouse about that huge amount of money you owe.

And this happens in several professions. We need an even playing field so that our young people do not make their career decisions based quite so much on how in the world they will repay their college debts. Just making college more affordable will not do the trick. Every child who can qualify for a higher education in a public school or a public technical college or for graduate school should graduate unencumbered by debt. Better to raise the tax level on the income that the elite among the educated professionals earn than to burden them with debt from their earliest years.

And I am not even going to get to the topic of the rampant age and other discrimination that we experience in the workplace today as technology and efficiencies in the workplace give employers the handy excuse of "reorganization" to cast off workers in their 50s and 60s. The call for a retirement age of 70 is obscene in the light of the commonplace policy in our workplaces of unloading workers as they age. Just obscene. An insult to the intelligence of American working people.

I do not think Hillary has a clue as to the pain that these issues, which are intrinsically political and for which political solutions need to be found, cause to ordinary Americans.

Bernie has a soul and you feel it when you hear him talk.

Hillary is religious. She goes through the motions and means well, but she doesn't project much soul no matter how much God-talk she peppers her speeches with.

cer7711

(502 posts)
127. Hillary = Another Moderate Republican President
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:15 PM
Sep 2015

Bernie = FDR reincarnated.

I know who the f@#k I'm voting for and why.

That is all . . .

kjones

(1,053 posts)
132. Hmm, really? Seems like Bernie has the personality cult on his side.
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 08:33 PM
Sep 2015

Seems like all the pro-Sanders stuff is about "vote for him because of who he is."

HRC supporter posts making Hillary about image/gender seem few and far between relative to
BS supporter posts making it about image/gender. I mean, look, you're doing it now.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
138. It's Sanders "policy" that is the issue
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 09:03 PM
Sep 2015

with Hillary supporters. Sanders "fiscal policy" to be exact.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
146. Seems to me I hear a lot of people telling other people what they think and why
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 11:24 PM
Sep 2015

I wish everyone would just speak for themselves.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
147. Funny
Sat Sep 12, 2015, 11:33 PM
Sep 2015

So many pro Hillary folks replying here pretty much back up the point of the OP. They want to vote for her for lots of reasons but no detail on programs, no reflection on her being sucked in and one hundred percent wrong on Iraq. Or her big haul from Wall Street Banksters.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
176. Many Democrats are on the conservative side
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 05:49 PM
Sep 2015

of certain issues, such as national security, international trade, or business and banking policies. My parents are older, lifelong Democrats, children of the 1940s and 1950s. They are slightly older than Hillary Clinton. If they don't completely embrace the newer outlooks on each and every one of the issues mentioned in the OP, it doesn't mean they're unconcerned about policy.

I realize the OP wasn't referring to my parent's situation. But my point is kind-of that not everyone who considers themselves Democrats are as hyper-tuned in to all of these issues as is the case at DU -- which by it's very name "Underground" tends to collect Democrats who are more dissatisfied with the "status quo" than the average person.

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