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DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 05:33 PM Sep 2015

Of an "enthusiasm Gap" for Hillary

Disclaimers: I was asked to make this an op over here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=45612

Second, as I say in the piece I realize that I need, not just want, need the GOP to lose, period.

Now, on with the piece:

There have been people since well before 2008 who have wanted Hillary, and who frankly will not care what they have to do to get her. Some parts of this is "It's about time we had a woman in power" types, people who genuinely feel that this is their best shot to elect a woman. Now, even the thickest headed people would fail to understand why someone would want battles over matters like Abortion Policy or Equal Pay to be fought by someone who has been at the brunt of such problems herself, especially in a culture where there is no shortage of very "serious" men who will happily defend the way women are attacked by this society. Even on Du, we have people chime in and say things about women that they would never be as free to say about any other minority.

However, this is where politics of identity fail. I would warn that the UK and Brazil have shown an ugly fact: just because the ruler is a woman does not mean she will govern for the benefit of women. Of Thatcher, so much was been written, but even Dilma Rouseff, someone who on paper looked so great, turned out to be a major disappointment. She allowed the World Cup to ravish Brasil, starve women and children, and plans to do the same in the Olympics, not to mention allowed many of her corrupt friends to steal. This was the former revolutionary, openly LGBT person who was going to help re-define the post cold war era. We need principles, not identity, as sadly many woman politicians will prove just as harmful as the males, and that is not even touching the group that the conservatives seem to have an abundant supply of, you betcha.

Then there is another type of Hillary enthusiast, less sincere, but more virulent. They are those who say they are liberal, but are really scared about the fact that many on the left are tired of liberals, namely because they have been leaning right for so long that the party's rudder snapped off! No matter how far the GOP goes to the right, many self declared "liberals" will seek that spot which is never too far from the right, thus assuring that even if the GOP wants to drive off the cliff, we will follow shortly. Sadly, the person that embodies that idea is Hillary Clinton who has defended the enemies of the left, the Military Industrial complex and Wall Street. What is worse is that when she defends these enemies of the left, she does it with a smirk, as she did when she made the "we came, we saw, he died" joke.

No one is saying she had to be Bernie, but people should not scratch their heads and wonder why great enthusiasm cannot be whipped up about someone that the left KNOWS will start working with their enemies the minute she gets in. It's is not enough that we are the ones working in the kitchen, but then we will be expected to throw ourselves into the soup, so that the Lloyd Blankfelds and Bibi Netanyahus can give Chef Hillary four stars.

And again, I know that would still be better than Chef Jeb Bush or Chef Donald Trump, but when you suddenly realize that you need ENTHUSIASM to get that one spare inch of turf that will get you over the finish line, do not yell at us and wonder where it is. I need, not want, need the GOP to lose, period, but that does not mean I will not keep my energies ready for the fight or flight I will need come January 2017, which is when Hillary's dinner patrons will start demanding their supper.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Of an "enthusiasm Gap" for Hillary (Original Post) DonCoquixote Sep 2015 OP
Baloney... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #1
no, her record is decidedly mixed. cali Sep 2015 #2
Yes, it is not yet Labor Day and she is STILL far ahead. Motown_Johnny Sep 2015 #6
I dont know about funny but I do know about how VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #10
Saying "STILL" makes it sound as if it is late in the process Motown_Johnny Sep 2015 #16
Still just means...just like it has been for some VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #18
Eh... kenfrequed Sep 2015 #31
"You volunteered" at the fair.... VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #37
Nothing would be evidence to you kenfrequed Sep 2015 #38
Still with Hill. Metric System Sep 2015 #3
"We need principles, not identity..." Bang on. snagglepuss Sep 2015 #4
of course you left out supporters who believe she is qualified to president and also has msongs Sep 2015 #5
Well said emulatorloo Sep 2015 #9
it has nothing to do with mas rallies DonCoquixote Sep 2015 #12
Oh gods yes kenfrequed Sep 2015 #32
She works for the enemy currently PowerToThePeople Sep 2015 #7
0k so we all need to evacuate the U.S. if HRC beats Bush or Trump emulatorloo Sep 2015 #8
Most Democrats consider her the BEST QUALIFIED. Lil Missy Sep 2015 #11
I suggest in 2016 "best qualified" consists of Ron Green Sep 2015 #13
Yeah why not try that truth and integrity stuff VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #19
You and your personal attack Ron Green Sep 2015 #20
What personal attack? VanillaRhapsody Sep 2015 #21
" Yeah why not try that truth and integrity stuff" demwing Sep 2015 #23
You want to start with your name? Ron Green Sep 2015 #24
Because name recognition is everything, and fucking over the 99% is nothing n/t eridani Sep 2015 #14
nope. it's real and its been widely noted. hardly just du and cali Sep 2015 #22
I keep hearing you say that, but I don't see it. Fawke Em Sep 2015 #35
Robert Reich doesn't agree with you. Fawke Em Sep 2015 #36
Poignant OP. Juicy_Bellows Sep 2015 #15
Yes, we get hit. You hate Hillary, and you get to decide who is "liberal" and who isn't. DanTex Sep 2015 #17
I might not decide who liberals are DonCoquixote Sep 2015 #25
Fer chrissake...can you strike the word "hate" Armstead Sep 2015 #28
thanks DonCoquixote Sep 2015 #29
Nailed it: "another type of Hillary enthusiast, less sincere, but more virulent..." Romulox Sep 2015 #26
Wonder why, media uses email issue which is a non issue that would not even be a one day story randys1 Sep 2015 #27
so we need to be rightwing DonCoquixote Sep 2015 #30
uhm... kenfrequed Sep 2015 #34
I'd settle for her being the person she was between 1968 and 1972, when she still noticed the poor. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #33
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
1. Baloney...
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 05:49 PM
Sep 2015

Her record says otherwise....
And what "enthusiasm gap"? She is STILL far ahead...plus he cannot win without MAJOR changes in Blacks, Hispanics and women.....there is your "low enthusiasm" for a candidate.

If you have to distort reality....you are not winning or being honest.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. no, her record is decidedly mixed.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 05:54 PM
Sep 2015

And the enthusiasm gap is undoubtedly real, despite her being ahead.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
6. Yes, it is not yet Labor Day and she is STILL far ahead.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 06:56 PM
Sep 2015

Do you have any idea how funny that statement is?


 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
10. I dont know about funny but I do know about how
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:29 PM
Sep 2015

real that statement is....

Its called reality....reality on the ground.

Regardless that baseless attacks and demonstrably false accusations are lobbed at her....that fact still remains...

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
31. Eh...
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:40 PM
Sep 2015

I volunteered at the State Fair in Minnesota and I noted a distinct difference between the quantity of people going to Bernie Sanders table and Hillary Clintons. Of course neither candidate was in attendance but Bernie's table attracted about five times the number of people on a hot weekend afternoon.

He also had a lot more high energy supporters that were looking forward to caucusing for him.

I'm sorry, but the game on the ground isn't much different and it shows with the numbers that Senator Sanders attracts at his events.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
38. Nothing would be evidence to you
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 11:22 PM
Sep 2015

I feel like I'm discussing with a climate change denier. The polls showing Bernie rising are wrong because... Reasons. The fact his events are very well attended are... Proof that he's a fringer. Anyone that tells you they are supporting him are obviously just silly or stealth Republicans.



msongs

(67,413 posts)
5. of course you left out supporters who believe she is qualified to president and also has
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 06:44 PM
Sep 2015

flaws and weaknesses and will vote for her whether or not they attend mass rallies

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
12. it has nothing to do with mas rallies
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:30 PM
Sep 2015

The only numbers that matter are the ones on election day, and considering the fact that many of the purple states already have voter laws and harassment, it will take an extra effort to get people in those voting booths. Hillary needs to speak on matter like voting rights NOW, and not wait till the GOP fires, and she responds. That might be the DWS method, but we know how DWS wins elections.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
32. Oh gods yes
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:43 PM
Sep 2015

I sometimes think that while I disagree with Hillary on a lot of issues that her strategy is actually significantly worse than her positions.

If she ends up being the candidate then I really hope she isn't taking advice from DWS because that is a recipe for a complete electoral melt-down. It would be 2000 all over again with the Democratic candidate attempting to play to the right to try to win over illusory "moderates" while failing to turn out their base.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
7. She works for the enemy currently
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:01 PM
Sep 2015
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/17/1393899/-Hillary-Clinton-s-Record-of-Advocacy-and-Support-of-the-TPP

Hillary Clinton's Record of Advocacy and Support of the TPP

I am linking the full contents of the source document as I wrote it and administer the group on facebook.

On the Transpacific Partnership; the trade deal that will cost American jobs, give power to multi-national corporations to sue the American tax payers' for creating laws that protect the environment, land, food/water supply, workers rights, and public health from their toxic policies and practices and create international tribunals staffed by multi-national corporations to hear the cases outside of US courts.

The US media has portrayed Clinton's record on this policy as undefined and tried to frame her obsfuscation on the subject as indicative of possible opposition while failing to report her direct involvement and advocacy of the policy as Secretary of State:

(more @ link)

emulatorloo

(44,131 posts)
8. 0k so we all need to evacuate the U.S. if HRC beats Bush or Trump
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:06 PM
Sep 2015

Did I understand you correctly?

HRC is too conservative for me. That is one of the reasons I support Bernie. That being said, I see no need to flee the country if HRC should be the nominee and defeat the Republican candidate.

Lil Missy

(17,865 posts)
11. Most Democrats consider her the BEST QUALIFIED.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:33 PM
Sep 2015

The only "enthusiasm" gap Hillary Clinton has is with DU. In REAL life, she's the clear democratic front runner.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
19. Yeah why not try that truth and integrity stuff
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 03:47 PM
Sep 2015

Personallly....its actually quite painless.....we all should try and practice it.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
22. nope. it's real and its been widely noted. hardly just du and
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:02 PM
Sep 2015

here's a good example.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251568438

That is what grassroots enthusiasm looks like. Hillary doesn't have it. She never will.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
35. I keep hearing you say that, but I don't see it.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:58 PM
Sep 2015

It's all anecdotal, of course, but around here, I've seen several Bernie bumper stickers and everyone's talking about him.

I've seen no HRC stickers and no one is mentioning her unless it's to talk about the emails.

Of course, most people are talking about Trump because he's all that's on the news, but most people also mention that he's an idiot.

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
15. Poignant OP.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 04:30 AM
Sep 2015

However, those that can't bother to be objective won't just pick bones, they'll swallow your soul - so to speak.

Anytime I can shoehorn in an Evil Dead quote I must.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
17. Yes, we get hit. You hate Hillary, and you get to decide who is "liberal" and who isn't.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 02:49 PM
Sep 2015

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't an original idea.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
25. I might not decide who liberals are
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:15 PM
Sep 2015

but history does:

FDR is an agreed upon liberal, and he introduced acts like Glass Steagall,because, like many liberals, he knew you needed to draw lines in the sand so that the bankers would not tramples the roses and ruin your crops. She sad she would not consider putting it back.

Now, if you are going to throw rocks and accuse me of trying to define who is liberal, then you have top make the case that she IS, and no ignoring money matters is NOT being liberal, as FDR certainly knew he had to pay attention to the rich that then, as now, broke our economy.

but see matters where there have been clear lines in the sand, the Death Penalty, Support for Teacher's unions, and yes, WAR, you will see where she has gone to the right. Sorry to burst YOUR bubble, but Hillary has shown a willingness to abandon liberal positions, to the point where the two parties are now Reagan Democrat and Libertarian Christian fundamentalist, which is to say, no room for liberals.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
28. Fer chrissake...can you strike the word "hate"
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:29 PM
Sep 2015

How about "We get it, You dislike Clinton...etc."

Sorry buit "hate" is a despicable, loaded word, and it gets tossed around like a beanbag too easily.

Do you "hate" Sanders or O'Malley?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
26. Nailed it: "another type of Hillary enthusiast, less sincere, but more virulent..."
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:18 PM
Sep 2015
another type of Hillary enthusiast, less sincere, but more virulent. They are those who say they are liberal, but are really scared about the fact that many on the left are tired of liberals, namely because they have been leaning right for so long that the party's rudder snapped off!


randys1

(16,286 posts)
27. Wonder why, media uses email issue which is a non issue that would not even be a one day story
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:18 PM
Sep 2015

if it was about anybody else.

If there is an enthusiasm gap it is because the rightwing conspiracy to destroy her, very active on DU for example, and elsewhere, is very well funded and has a lot of experience at these tactics.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
30. so we need to be rightwing
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:39 PM
Sep 2015

if we are tired of her willing to go to war?
If we wish she would at least put back Glass Steagall?
Or oppose the Keystone Pipeline
Or Oppose the TPP?

Those do not sound right wing to me, and frankly, I know I am not getting paid. Did'nt it used to be an alert offense to accuse someone of being a paid right winger? Not that I would bother, because the brave person known as "no explanation given" would kill that alert.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
34. uhm...
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:54 PM
Sep 2015

You realize most of us that weren't enthused about Hillary haven't been enthused about her for a decade or more. Her stances on the issues weren't as progressive and she took a lot of money from Wallstreet again and again.

She ran for a safe Senate seat in New York and won. But since then most of us haven't been all that impressed.

Her votes that we take issue with were not part of some GOP plot. How the hell is the establishment candidate attracting all these people that believe that Karl Rove is under every bed and behind every keyboard rigging the election just so Hillary doesn't get to run in the general election?

None of this makes any damned sense.

There is an enthusiasm gap. It is a real thing felt by some progressives. It isn't a plot. We aren't deluded. We just feel there are better options on the table.

How hard is that to understand?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
33. I'd settle for her being the person she was between 1968 and 1972, when she still noticed the poor.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:53 PM
Sep 2015

And working people. And the evil of militarism.

Just as I have settled for John Kerry in 2004 being the John Kerry of 1971...a person he had no reason to ever stop being.

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