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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:11 AM Sep 2015

Sanders is willing to sacrifice growth for the sake of redistribution.

There are very few unspoken rules among major-party candidates for president, and Bernie Sanders is breaking one of them. He’s saying that America’s leaders shouldn’t worry so much about economic growth if that growth serves to enrich only the wealthiest Americans.

“Our economic goals have to be redistributing a significant amount of [wealth] back from the top 1 percent,” Sanders said in a recent interview, even if that redistribution slows the economy overall.

“Unchecked growth – especially when 99 percent of all new income goes to the top 1 percent – is absurd,” he said. “Where we’ve got to move is not growth for the sake of growth, but we’ve got to move to a society that provides a high quality of life for all of our people. In other words, if people have health care as a right, as do the people of every other major country, then there’s less worry about growth. If people have educational opportunity and their kids can go to college and they have child care, then there’s less worry about growth for the sake of growth.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/13/what-bernie-sanders-is-willing-to-sacrifice-for-a-more-equal-society/

This is problematic for two reasons. First, politically it is a disaster. Sure, it plays well to a portion of the base, but going into a general election arguing that we are going to sacrifice growth in order to redistribute is a losing strategy.

And the second reason is that it implicitly concedes a false right-wing economic argument, namely that sacrificing growth is necessary in order to reduce inequality. In fact, there is an argument to be made that the opposite is true: reducing inequality actually increases economic growth, particularly when inequality has reached the extreme levels we have in the US. There is research suggesting that the economically optimal tax rates on the wealthy are higher than they are right now. At worst, reducing inequality from the extreme highs we are at now is growth-neutral, so we shouldn't be talking about sacrificing growth.

Democratic policies are better for growth than Republican ones. Progressive taxation to pay for things like infrastructure, education, and scientific research increases growth in the long term. Effective financial regulation does as well, not only be preventing crises, but also by diverting more resources to the real economy rather than financial engineering. This is the argument Dems should be making.
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Sanders is willing to sacrifice growth for the sake of redistribution. (Original Post) DanTex Sep 2015 OP
So am I. nt LWolf Sep 2015 #1
Exactly. Growth, by definition, is an unsustainable concept. HappyPlace Sep 2015 #95
YES. nt LWolf Sep 2015 #122
#feelTheBern2016 newfie11 Sep 2015 #2
Neo liberal austerity garbage Ichingcarpenter Sep 2015 #3
I agree, Sanders should not be conceding garbage neo-liberal economic talking points DanTex Sep 2015 #5
You have no clue on what you are talking about Ichingcarpenter Sep 2015 #19
Umm, the links are by Stiglitz and Piketty. Do you consider them neo-liberal? DanTex Sep 2015 #22
He does, and supplies links. Also check my post because I do know what I'm talking about. PatrickforO Sep 2015 #130
Indeed...too many are now "wised up" about Wall Street and the Rest KoKo Sep 2015 #111
what growth? ibegurpard Sep 2015 #4
Can't put it any better than that. Thank you. djean111 Sep 2015 #7
+1000 Hydra Sep 2015 #41
...! KoKo Sep 2015 #113
/\_/\_This right here_/\_/\ Scuba Sep 2015 #119
I would recommend but for the editorial comment by the OP. morningfog Sep 2015 #6
+1 dorkzilla Sep 2015 #52
Self-pwned by your own OP marmar Sep 2015 #8
Create jobs by demonizing wealth. SonderWoman Sep 2015 #9
Have you even read your own sig ? TheFarS1de Sep 2015 #11
really? lol n/t retrowire Sep 2015 #12
Is that a Ronald Reagan quote? Armstead Sep 2015 #18
wow. nt m-lekktor Sep 2015 #64
5 minutes ago the talking point was that Sanders supporters are all 1%er elitists. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #96
yeah it's a bad looking growth though retrowire Sep 2015 #10
I get the feeling that some of your critics never bothered to read the material at the MADem Sep 2015 #13
The responses say a lot about the economic literacy level of Hillary bashers. DanTex Sep 2015 #15
Ain't that the truth...! MADem Sep 2015 #17
Battling for a share of an increasingly smaller economic pie... DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2015 #37
Dan I gotta be honest with you Armstead Sep 2015 #24
You're a smart person too, which means you certainly are aware of the Hillary bashing going on here. DanTex Sep 2015 #30
She does make me want to throw my shoe -- as have many other Democrats over the last 30 years Armstead Sep 2015 #36
I don't buy the "both sides" thing in this case. There are a lot of asymmetries. DanTex Sep 2015 #40
It's all a matter of whose ox is being gored. I feel the same way you do from the other side. Armstead Sep 2015 #46
Not in this case. I've seen no threads accusing Sanders of being a racist. Can you link to one? DanTex Sep 2015 #48
Well, I'm going to agree to disagree Armstead Sep 2015 #49
I think most of the folks disagreeing with you here... Blus4u Sep 2015 #39
Yes, that is my take on this OP and replies, too. Hiraeth Sep 2015 #88
A one track mind is a burden to all. But I have reason to agree with BS on this: freshwest Sep 2015 #107
Well, one supposedly did ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #26
Post removed Post removed Sep 2015 #63
What the ever loving fuck??? sufrommich Sep 2015 #66
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #71
So glad it got a Hide. Cha Sep 2015 #134
Glad that racist dribble got a Hide. Cha Sep 2015 #133
Actually, wealth redistribution can help growth. It can produce more demand in an economy. mmonk Sep 2015 #14
Yes, that was my point. DanTex Sep 2015 #16
. mmonk Sep 2015 #21
Decreasing wealth inequality is the only way to lasting growth that won't come crashing down in RichVRichV Sep 2015 #87
+1 mmonk Sep 2015 #100
Rule Number One: Never trust economic arguments. Never. DetlefK Sep 2015 #20
Well, the problem is, you have to make economic policy somehow, so you have to trust something. DanTex Sep 2015 #23
Exactly. And we have plenty of examples through global history. mmonk Sep 2015 #27
And we've been trusting the wrong people and somethings for too long Armstead Sep 2015 #32
Hillary is not Bill. DanTex Sep 2015 #33
It's not a matter of "sacrificing" growth. It's what type of growth. Armstead Sep 2015 #38
It is in the way Bernie is phrasing it. DanTex Sep 2015 #44
Except Bernie isn't phrasing it that way. Scootaloo Sep 2015 #80
Clearly implying that he's willing to accept less growth in order to redistribute. DanTex Sep 2015 #84
Correct. Not, as you have insisted, that redistribution necessitates stymieing growth. Scootaloo Sep 2015 #89
WTF??? LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #60
Which do you disagree with? Obama more left than Bill, or Hillary more left than Obama? DanTex Sep 2015 #69
Socially or economically? LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #70
Both. DanTex Sep 2015 #75
So are you still clinging to the strawman that Bernie wants to sacrifice growth? LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #77
He came out and said that he was willing to see less growth. I'm not mischaracterizing it at all. DanTex Sep 2015 #82
Actual headline: The thing Bernie Sanders says about inequality that no other candidate will touch Hiraeth Sep 2015 #93
Poor choice of wording is "sacrifice". "Controlled growth" would be a better phrase, I think. Hiraeth Sep 2015 #90
Do you trust the "trickle-down-theory"? DetlefK Sep 2015 #34
No. DanTex Sep 2015 #35
Our leaders have trusted that if they take care of the wealthy the wealthy will in turn take care of Autumn Sep 2015 #42
False premise. RDANGELO Sep 2015 #25
Actually, that was the OP's point. N/t 1StrongBlackMan Sep 2015 #28
Which is why Bernie shouldn't be talking about sacrificing growth. DanTex Sep 2015 #31
Bernie is right. We shouldn’t worry so much about economic growth if that growth serves Autumn Sep 2015 #43
Except he's not. Sacrifice is your word, your imagery, your choice, Bernie is not saying any such Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #59
+1,000 LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #61
The OP will not respond. Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #62
I do believe there is a name for such an argument, where one misrepresenst the views LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #65
thank you. no wonder this thread is a hot mess. Hiraeth Sep 2015 #92
The words he used that seem to be invisible to you are Autumn Sep 2015 #114
Economic Growth Is Dead - Redistribution Is All That Is Left cantbeserious Sep 2015 #29
We need to start talking about reducing growth Hydra Sep 2015 #45
Context! drm604 Sep 2015 #47
Pish. Fawke Em Sep 2015 #50
Post removed Post removed Sep 2015 #51
This argument is disingenuous. nt. druidity33 Sep 2015 #53
Eeek! Bernie wants to take away our yachts!!! Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2015 #54
LMAO!!! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #121
I'm sooo tired of hearing kacekwl Sep 2015 #55
You mischaracterize, he does not say 'sacrifice growth' he says pursue healthy growth and equitable Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #56
"Socialism! BOOGA WOOGGA!" LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #57
Sounds like boloney to me; elleng Sep 2015 #58
Did I accidentally stumble into Reaganomics Underground or something Cheese Sandwich Sep 2015 #67
Sort of LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #72
Good luck trying to win a presidential campaign arguing that we don't need growth. DanTex Sep 2015 #76
You are reinforcing an inaccurate portrayal Armstead Sep 2015 #78
"Healthy" growth rates in this case means "lower" growth rates. DanTex Sep 2015 #86
and they might Armstead Sep 2015 #91
Of course he is. That is his objective. djean111 Sep 2015 #101
yep. Hiraeth Sep 2015 #108
But he doesn't say that. You're totally making that up. arcane1 Sep 2015 #81
Except he's not talking about redistribution at the expense of growth. Scootaloo Sep 2015 #83
Apparently the drug war is great, too, it just needs more money. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #97
I believe that is a good thing, as current growth is not sustainable. Xyzse Sep 2015 #68
We ought to talk to the Pope about this. Ron Green Sep 2015 #73
When 99% of all new 'growth' goes to the top 1% AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #74
I'm glad he and I are in agreement. arcane1 Sep 2015 #79
Until balance is obtained the pendulum will make a wide arc. Simply put, Sanders is right. Hiraeth Sep 2015 #85
Conservatives claim it is a zero sum game -- it's not Armstead Sep 2015 #94
Fuck capitalism ... GeorgeGist Sep 2015 #98
And that is why I support him - TBF Sep 2015 #99
Sorry I'm late to this thread. Now please tell me what the fuck this is all about. HappyPlace Sep 2015 #102
damn, I had to look twice to make sure I wasn't on National Reviews m-lekktor Sep 2015 #103
Growth is a myth....redistribute now. bowens43 Sep 2015 #104
That works for me. Repugs are always talking "growth" whathehell Sep 2015 #105
Unfettered growth isn't always good; just look at cancer. n/t Avalux Sep 2015 #106
Unrec. n/t Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #109
It is OK, Dan. We got this. Relax. Agony Sep 2015 #110
Unrec right wing tripe. PowerToThePeople Sep 2015 #112
Bingo! Scuba Sep 2015 #120
This is one of my many concerns with Bernie as our candidate. DCBob Sep 2015 #115
Yes, conservative Democrats who have the same views as the GOP Armstead Sep 2015 #116
It's getting harder to tell the difference between the two. Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #118
Because if we all have more, we participate in the economy, more. Puzzledtraveller Sep 2015 #117
This is rather close to a republican argument. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #123
Ironically, it's Bernie who is conceding the supply-side economics talking points here. DanTex Sep 2015 #125
You paraphrase poorly Armstead Sep 2015 #127
How wonderfully dishonest of you. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #128
unchecked growth is called cancer JackInGreen Sep 2015 #124
I rec'd the post for what Sanders said NowSam Sep 2015 #126
Ah, the new establishment meme! PatrickforO Sep 2015 #129
It's a losing strategy in the GE. Plain and simple. redstateblues Sep 2015 #131
Because I think that, long term, we need to change our economic model to one based on sustainability Agnosticsherbet Sep 2015 #132
In and of itself, "growth" only benefits the rich. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #135
 

HappyPlace

(568 posts)
95. Exactly. Growth, by definition, is an unsustainable concept.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 03:32 PM
Sep 2015

Nothing can grow forever without killing other things.

Stasis and stability should be the end game, with economic, equity, and environmental considerations all in balance.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
3. Neo liberal austerity garbage
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:16 AM
Sep 2015

with neo liberal talking points that don't work anymore, according to
Nobel winning economists.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
5. I agree, Sanders should not be conceding garbage neo-liberal economic talking points
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:19 AM
Sep 2015

like that reducing inequality requires sacrificing growth.

PatrickforO

(14,577 posts)
130. He does, and supplies links. Also check my post because I do know what I'm talking about.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 10:09 AM
Sep 2015

We can have both growth AND redistribution. The NY Post is spouting an either/or fallacy to lay the groundwork for a massive ratfucking of Bernie. We're gonna fight back.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
111. Indeed...too many are now "wised up" about Wall Street and the Rest
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:30 PM
Sep 2015

of how we Bailed Out the Banks and the Crooks & Liars got off with just paying "Fines." Are we better off Today? Only those, young or old and 1 Percenters who profited who are not involved and watch Faux News like its Religion, who don't know the History, could be pleased with today's Economic Injustice and their own hopes for a Stable Future being trashed by the policies of Neo-Liberalism.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
7. Can't put it any better than that. Thank you.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:23 AM
Sep 2015

You know what is going to grow under the "trade" agreements? The wealth of the 1%.

Hi-B visas? The wealth of the 1%.

War? The wealth of the 1%.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
41. +1000
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:30 AM
Sep 2015

The so called "growth" has been trumpeted all over, but none of it is real or ways that benefit anyone in the long term.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
18. Is that a Ronald Reagan quote?
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:39 AM
Sep 2015

Or perhaps paraphrased from Rush Limbaugh.

That's the buzzword that the GOP has used for decades to "demonize" any effort to reign in the excess of supply-side, trickle down economics.

It's not a matter of "demonizing wealth." There are huge differences between reasonable wealth based on achievement, and the sort of massive robbery that has resulted in a situation where a majority of workers have seen wages plummet, jobs disappearing and consumers getting screwed so that a small people worth hundred of millions -- and BILLIONS -- can buy their 5th vacation mansions.

When you have extremely profitable corporations whose owners have net worth in the BILLIONS of dollars, who pay their workers so little that many have to go on food stamps -- yes, that is worth criticizing.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
96. 5 minutes ago the talking point was that Sanders supporters are all 1%er elitists.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 03:38 PM
Sep 2015

I keep hearing that they're all effete white arugula eaters who dont give a shit about the "subaltern".

My suggestion is, if you're going to just make stuff up, pick a single made-up narrative and run with it, rather than trying to pursue several totally contradictory ones at the same time.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
10. yeah it's a bad looking growth though
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:28 AM
Sep 2015

and Bernie's the doctor to remove it.

the 1% is an unregulated tumor and the rest of our body is wasting away while it gets fat off of our life blood.

besides, even ignoring the 1% issue, our nation is the world biggest economic super power. it would do us well to stop building the damn tower and get back to the bottom to reinforce the foundation a bit.

the kind of growth you're praising is severely unsustainable.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
13. I get the feeling that some of your critics never bothered to read the material at the
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:31 AM
Sep 2015

links you provided...!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
17. Ain't that the truth...!
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:36 AM
Sep 2015

And they're so PLEASED with themselves, despite it all!

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, though--it didn't go entirely to waste.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
37. Battling for a share of an increasingly smaller economic pie...
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:20 AM
Sep 2015

Battling for a share of an increasingly smaller economic pie will only increase tension between classes and races for ever scarcer resources and if left unchecked will result in Thomas Hobbes' "war of all against all."



This conversation is astounding.


 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
24. Dan I gotta be honest with you
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:45 AM
Sep 2015

You're a smart person and you've obviously given a lot of thought to issues, and are certainly capable of a discussion based on the actual differences between candidates and what they represent.

So why do you feel the need to engage in misleading trollery and terms like "Hillary bashers" to denigrate the people who have legitimate grievances against things that are much larger than Clinton......or Sanders, as people.

Supporters of BOTH candidates (all candidates) are diverse, and not monolithic, and have varying levels of economic sophistication.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
30. You're a smart person too, which means you certainly are aware of the Hillary bashing going on here.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:53 AM
Sep 2015

For just one example, we just had 40+ recs for an OP claiming that Hillary had committed a felony with the email thing. How would you describe that if not Hillary-bashing? And you know I could go on. Even you recently implied that Hillary "makes you want to throw your shoes".

As far as the "economic literacy" part of my post, read the responses to the OP, and tell me if you see signs of economic literacy, or of even having remotely understood what I was saying.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
36. She does make me want to throw my shoe -- as have many other Democrats over the last 30 years
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:13 AM
Sep 2015

Republicans have also made me want to throw my shoe, but that's to be expected.

I have seen politicians like Clinton ignore underlying cancers that are described as "growth" for decades. And echo the same false assumptions (con-man pitches) used to tell people "who ya going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?"

As for economic literacy....well no. Many "supporters" on both sides are not experts in economic theory (nor am I). But common sense and a basic level of observation is also required -- especially when convoluted "analysis" is used to justify the Emperor's New Clothes, as was done in the 90's.(I noted this in another post on this thread.)

And people can't pack all of their underlying reasons for supporting a candidate/movement/philosophy into every post on DU. Certain simplicity is required both for time and space considerations -- and DU is like a living room conversation.

Politics is a mix of the personal and the deeper issues. What I am referring to are dismissals of people who disagree with broad-brush and misleading insults. "Hillary bashers" and "Clinton haters" as a bunch of stupid morons is just as useless and counterproductive as characterizations of all Clinton supporters as brain-dead cultists.

With a few worthy exceptions, we all do that kind of crap to an extent. Me too. Nothing wrong with heated disagreements. But I think we all should avoid those stereotypes that merely are "button pushing" designed to replace legitimate disagreement with emotions Real Housewives of Beverly Hills type of "hatah" crap.

I'm guilty of that too, I'll admit. But we should all "try" not to get into such instant dismissive personal shit.





DanTex

(20,709 posts)
40. I don't buy the "both sides" thing in this case. There are a lot of asymmetries.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:28 AM
Sep 2015

For example, I challenge you to find any highly-recced thread saying something comparable to Hillary committed a felony. Or, more generally, anything comparable to the glee expressed by Hillary bashers about the email thing (which by the way is a GOP witch hunt).

Or, look at the difference between when a union endorses Hillary versus Bernie. When it's Hillary, there are all sorts of angry people saying that somehow the fix is in and this is a betrayal and blah blah blah. When it's Bernie, Hillary supporters are by and large, meh, OK, so he got a union endorsement. It's to be expected, both of them are strong on labor, so both are going to get endorsements.

There just isn't stuff like this going the other way. Some people claim that Hillary supporters have called Bernie "racist" but of course this is a lie. Hillary gets called all sorts of names. The worst Bernie gets is "socialist" and that's because he has said "I'm a socialist".

On DU, there are a lot of Hillary bashers. It's just a fact. As far as the "cultist" thing, I see very few people who support Hillary as some kind of idol worship. Speaking for myself, I support her for pragmatic reasons, and I think a lot of people in the Hillary camp are like that.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
46. It's all a matter of whose ox is being gored. I feel the same way you do from the other side.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:03 AM
Sep 2015

There are a lot of threads that accuse Sanders of being a racist, etc. It's not a lie. I've been accused of being racist for standing up for Sanders on that subject. And if Sanders had something comparable to the e-mail flap that was on a comparable cale, I can pretty much guarantee there'd be a lot of Clinton supporters beating that drum to death too.

I think it;s human nature to be more sensitive and aware of criticism thrown at oneself (or one's "side" in this case). Personally, I'd prefer to see fewer of those personalized "hot buttons" being pushed by all sides (I include myself in that), even if disagreements are strong.

Like I said, I have nothing against heated arguments or disagreements. I just think we all ought not to be more careful about not personally alienating each other to the degree that we do. Especially as it escalates to animosity beyond whichever candidate or philosophy one supports or opposes.

In part because not too long from now, you may supporting Sanders or another candidate against Trump or Bush or I may have to be trying to generate enthusiasm for Clinton over TB.



DanTex

(20,709 posts)
48. Not in this case. I've seen no threads accusing Sanders of being a racist. Can you link to one?
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:13 AM
Sep 2015

And certainly not any highly recced threads like the one accusing Hillary of committing a felony.

I see threads saying that he prioritizes economic over social issues (which he does), but that's not remotely the same as accusing him of being racist. The whole "Sanders is racist" thing is a straw argument used by Sanders supporters to dismiss arguments that he is stronger on economic than social issues. When people attack Hillary, they say things like "Hillary is a warmonger/corporatist/tool of the 1%/owned by banks" etc. I don't see comparable things going the other way.

The idea that Hillary supporters would jump on the band-wagon to attack Sanders over a right-wing witch hunt is pure speculation. That hasn't happened, but it has happened with Hillary.

Blus4u

(608 posts)
39. I think most of the folks disagreeing with you here...
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:27 AM
Sep 2015

feel that:

1) Gains at the top will be saved or invested in such a manner to make more gains for the investor. Kind of like hoarding.

2) Gains foe the rest of us will be generally dumped back into the economy....because the top has been slowly strangling the rest of us for the last 35 years or so.

Peace

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
107. A one track mind is a burden to all. But I have reason to agree with BS on this:
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 05:50 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:18 PM - Edit history (2)

Because our growth model, and stressing the GNP is a problem for two reasons:

First, the growth model is not sustainable. It it the reason for environmental destruction and enslaving 'others' around the world, and the poor, especially women and children, is needed to make it work.

They are denied what the 1st world thinks we should have, such as education, healthcare and the most basic of human rights, agency over one's body. There is no such thing when one's time and one's body are for sale. The creative force of billions is being suppressed by the lack of value placed on it by the 'market.' It's great academic talk for those who have the leisure and distance to talk, but I focus on the often denied reality that influences all living things on this planet.

We're racing like raving horsemen to the edge of a cliff and we are not pulling back on the reins. All to keep our jobs and our so-called standard of living.



What kind of person does such things? What kind of system of economics does not take life into account?

GRAPHIC PICTURE: Don't worry, see explanation below:



The children on the left were rescued from the refugee camp. All were well taken care of and lived through it.

Consider the juxaposition of what the third world and the middle class believe they are entitled and have the right to have, while not solving the first side of the picture first. That's 'setting the cart before the horse' for those who believe that all are equal.

Hope that is what BS is saying but he's not talking the language of most. HRC , who has a proven track record of using the wealth from corporations to change conditions for women and children. In the words of Russell Means, a founder of the AIM, the most powerful 'economic units' on the planet are now the corporations, who are the ones we will have to talk to about this, like it or not.

Morality is lacking in all that is being done to the planet and living things. All our candidates in the Democratic Party are for a more moral society in ways they understand.

Russell Means says that the price for denying living creatures respect, will come at a terrible cost. 'There will be hell to pay,' he said, as these 'natural laws' are being broken in the name of the 'market.' Humans have come to 'a sorry pass.'



It's not a wise policy to see endless growth as the most important thing. There is more than one kind of prosperity. Those who can, buy land and produce their own food and drink water from their own well. Those who can't manage to get to or maintains that state of affairs are living at the whims of those who do.

And even after a lifetime of sacrifice and what some might call poverty holding onto that piece of earth (instead of having the cash to buy the latest consumer goods) can also be run off their land by the 'market' mentality which is capable of shoving them off their patrimony. It's to be argued whether it is theirs fairly to begin with, since the way they got it from a larger perspective was theft.

The middle class in this country and others live in a bubble that pretends by going over numbers, it created its own wealth without a negative effect on others and the planet. This is not true. It made its wealth by the greatest theft known, destroying land and resources (living ones), then making a profit by extracting the energy of the laborers without bringing them out of the system of environmental destruction.

Those pressed to work in such conditions are doing what was once called, 'eating the seed corn' or the means of biological production. In other words, the source of 'prosperity' is limited to destroying their local ecosphere for a piece of the first world pie. When it's done and gone, the first world will leave them in the dust, and they will be impoverished for many generations.

Some of what are fondly called the 'good old days' of the middle class, were built on theft from others in this country or the world. And some of the greatest wealth was made by eating through the seed corn, like privatization and bubbles. As the cash flowed freely, some got rich. But it cannot last, it never does.

And during the middle of the bubble, real people are hurt badly, but the media always cheers it on. The Iraq War, which I call 'the greatest money laundering scheme in world history,' and the entire Bush reign, bankrupted us, causing our creditors to call in their notes in 2008. They wisely wrote their terms for lending to be 'paid in kind' with trade deals that have decimated our economy and manufacturing base an enriched and strengthened theirs. These loans were not made for the sake or love or sentiment. They funded the Bush wars, not because they supported the reasoning behind them, but for their own benefit. No one lent us money because they were our allies. It was just 'good business' for them.

They didn't trust the foolish American people to be good for the payment of debt. Every GOP Congress under their baleful control proves them right and tried to renege on the payments, including pushing 'default' to make the country go bankrupt. Then we'd lose more than the 'seed corn', we'd lose the land it grew on. And we are.

For the millionth time, I say the media is not a friend, for so many reasons. All 'news' stories are designed to divert us off the theft in process and brainwash us into the next round of theft.

Endless growth for a few on the planet, including most of the fabled 99%, is just plain suicide, IMO.

Second, the GNP is touted as the solution for a nation's prosperity. It isn't. Wealth doesn't buy real joy or meaning to life, it only buys more of its own innate corruption, dead and temporary things and the destruction of the living being reduced to the level of commodities, that is by definition, for using up and then discarding. 'For whose benefit is all this chaos being done to so many?' I always ask.

The things being destroyed are irreplaceable, like species and communities. It is a function of where one is to rejoice in this state of affairs and call it wealth. I cannot be happy buying vanities, destroying the future, even the hard work of the generations passing or have passed in their idealism and sacrifice.

An example is the planned obsolence model of consumerism that is wrong and wasteful of time and resources, and the media facilitates it. (Enough about my ire for the media.)

The things being done around the planet, both to the living and our spirits, is obscene. I recall the words of RFK on GNP and I took them seriously and have pondered on it ever since:



Please forget any and all 'HRC bashers.' They're hurting themselves just by being what they are. Don't waste your time, as HRC doesn't, because she's using her fire power on the GOP, as always. It's why they hate her so much, she will not allow them to talk down to her belief system.

There are epic smack downs she has done to the GOP in Congress, in the Senate and as SoS. They always, and will continue with it, and come away looking stupid. To us in our liberal bubble. To them, it's all a big win to block their version of the natural order of things, with a few at the top ruling the rest of us. And that's even before they went apeshit. It's all they have, no substance even though power gives that appearance.

Still, we must think of something better. I see giving agency to women as an essential part of maintaining the ecosystem. Overpopulation is the breeding ground for poverty and empire which creates environmental disaster. This is history, pre-history, and a natural cycle that has been inescapable and leads to permanent changes in human and animal population and landscape.

We're going into a period of scarcity, diverted by consumerism to take our minds off of what is being degraded. Satellites are monitoring the loss of arable land and vegetation that sustains the circle of life. It's been hidden bycultural blindness. There are apocalyptic scenes that don't stay in the world's consciousness long enough to do enough.
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
26. Well, one supposedly did ...
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:48 AM
Sep 2015

Last edited Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Then, said ... without explanation ... that the links didn't say what the links said, proving that the OP didn't know what he is talking about.

Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #26)

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
14. Actually, wealth redistribution can help growth. It can produce more demand in an economy.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:32 AM
Sep 2015

Ever since we abandoned full employment polices, growth has been anemic. I hope to touch on this when I finish and publish my book.

RichVRichV

(885 posts)
87. Decreasing wealth inequality is the only way to lasting growth that won't come crashing down in
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:59 PM
Sep 2015

our faces. This has been proven beyond doubt now. Why so many don't get it yet is beyond me.

Tax the rich, spend on jobs for poor and middle class. Poor and middle class spend money buying things (which creates jobs). Businesses purchase goods to sell to poor and middle class from corporations (which creates jobs). Money goes back to the rich. Repeat process continuously.

This creates the engine cycle that made the US the most powerful economy in the history of the planet following WWII.

Demand drives supply, not the other way around. All supply side economics ultimately does is choke the engine out (with boom and bust cycles).

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
20. Rule Number One: Never trust economic arguments. Never.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:41 AM
Sep 2015

Just like every other science, economists have their theories how the economy works and they make models and predictions...

Unlike every other science, economists don't discard theories and models that have been proven wrong. Instead they keep being taught, they keep popping up and they keep making dubious predictions.

Never trust an argument based on an economic theory. You never know if that theory is kept around because it has been proven right or because it is kept around as a matter of tradition.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
32. And we've been trusting the wrong people and somethings for too long
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:55 AM
Sep 2015

Remember in the 1990's when Alan Greenspan was touted as a Wise and Wonderful Oz, and the Clintons and other centrist Demc were singing his praises, and telling people like Sanders "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Hell, once the results because too obvioius to ignore, even Grenspan admitted he was wrong.

We bought into an economic philosophy that ultimately wrecked the economy, and threatens to turn us into a reprise of the Gilded Age, if we're not there already.

Plus the notion of "growth for its own sake" is currently threatening to poison and burn up the planet.

Maybe we ought to challenge those assumptions now, instead of continuing to buy into them.
[link:

|
]

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
33. Hillary is not Bill.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:01 AM
Sep 2015

The Democratic Party is already to the left of where Bill Clinton was. Obama's policies are more progressive than Clinton's, and Hillary's platform is to the left of Obama.

Yes, Bernie was right when he took on Greenspan, and yes, there was too much deregulation. But this isn't 2000. And, more to the point, we shouldn't be talking about sacrificing growth for redistribution. Especially if we want to win an election.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
38. It's not a matter of "sacrificing" growth. It's what type of growth.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:21 AM
Sep 2015

"Where we’ve got to move is not growth for the sake of growth, but we’ve got to move to a society that provides a high quality of life for all of our people. In other words, if people have health care as a right, as do the people of every other major country, then there’s less worry about growth. If people have educational opportunity and their kids can go to college and they have child care, then there’s less worry about growth for the sake of growth.”

That's not saying NO growth. It's saying what kind of growth do we want, and what do we want to be driving growth?

Pure productivity gains, simple numerical profitability in return of investment to owners at the expense of the standard of living is not healthy growth.

Nor is growth based ONLY on economic factors. There are other ways of measuring true profitability and economic viability out there, that also factor in sustainability and quality of life. (I haven;t time to look them up now, but they do exist.)

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
44. It is in the way Bernie is phrasing it.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:41 AM
Sep 2015

The classic right-wing talking point is: redistributing wealth slows the economy down because people won't work as hard if the government takes more of their money and gives to less hard working people.

"Growth" here means GDP growth. You can argue that GDP does not fully measure the well-being of society, and you'd be right, but GDP is still important.

The thing is, we don't need to sacrifice GDP growth to have more equality, because that right-wing talking point is wrong. And talking in these terms is politically disastrous. It's comes pretty close to conceding that there's going to be less economic growth under a Sanders administration, which, subtleties notwithstanding, is a losing message.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
80. Except Bernie isn't phrasing it that way.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:48 PM
Sep 2015
“Where we’ve got to move is not growth for the sake of growth, but we’ve got to move to a society that provides a high quality of life for all of our people. In other words, if people have health care as a right, as do the people of every other major country, then there’s less worry about growth. If people have educational opportunity and their kids can go to college and they have child care, then there’s less worry about growth for the sake of growth.”


That is Sanders' phrasing, from the article in your OP, and his point is very clear, through the phrasing - that redistribution is simply more important than worries over growth.
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
89. Correct. Not, as you have insisted, that redistribution necessitates stymieing growth.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 02:04 PM
Sep 2015
I agree, Sanders should not be conceding garbage neo-liberal economic talking points

like that reducing inequality requires sacrificing growth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=565367


It is in the way Bernie is phrasing it.

The classic right-wing talking point is: redistributing wealth slows the economy down because people won't work as hard if the government takes more of their money and gives to less hard working people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=565516


Just in case you decide to pretend you didn't say what you clearly said.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
60. WTF???
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:33 AM
Sep 2015
The Democratic Party is already to the left of where Bill Clinton was. Obama's policies are more progressive than Clinton's, and Hillary's platform is to the left of Obama.


WTF? Also, black is white, war is peace, and the sun rises in the west.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
70. Socially or economically?
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:19 PM
Sep 2015

Socially, the Democratic party has slowly moved leftward with society in general.

Economically, the party has lurched right, and lurched hard. The Democratic party is no longer to the left of Bill economically, sadly. And Hillary is to the right of Obama.

Now, about your strawman re Bernie...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
75. Both.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:34 PM
Sep 2015

Obama is clearly to the left of Bill, both economically and socially. Bill deregulated, Obama re-regulated, including Dodd-Frank, the most significant piece of financial legislation since WW2. Obama has been much more aggressive on climate change. Clinton passed welfare reform, Obama passed ACA. Etc.

And, if you look at Hillary's platform, its more progressive still (although granted that Obama has tried to do some of what she's proposed, e.g. minimum wage, but got blocked by congress). Also, she was to the left of Obama in congress, an in 2008 her platform was to the left of Obama's, though they were pretty similar in many ways. Hillary is not Bill.
http://www.vox.com/2015/6/15/8779449/hillary-clinton-populist-record

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
77. So are you still clinging to the strawman that Bernie wants to sacrifice growth?
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:40 PM
Sep 2015

B. Clinton also raised taxes, Obama has lowered the. And climate change was a very minor topic during Clinton's time in office.

Now about your strawman...

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
82. He came out and said that he was willing to see less growth. I'm not mischaracterizing it at all.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:49 PM
Sep 2015

About taxes, Obama also raised them. First, he voided the Bush tax cuts at the top, raising the top tax rate back to Clinton's level, and then there were tax increases that came as part of ACA. And by the way, Clinton cut capital gains taxes.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
93. Actual headline: The thing Bernie Sanders says about inequality that no other candidate will touch
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 02:12 PM
Sep 2015

I thought the Washington Post was better than that.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
34. Do you trust the "trickle-down-theory"?
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:08 AM
Sep 2015

Never proven right, yet it keeps popping up since 3 decades in the US.

A theory that makes correct predictions a year from now could lead to a financial catastrophe a decade from now. You never know because the economists don't weed out the disproven theories.

Autumn

(45,107 posts)
42. Our leaders have trusted that if they take care of the wealthy the wealthy will in turn take care of
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:33 AM
Sep 2015

us. They have been proven wrong. Trickle down hasn't worked and there is no reason we should we continue to trust their economic policy. Time for a change. Bernie.

RDANGELO

(3,433 posts)
25. False premise.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:46 AM
Sep 2015

Putting more disposable income in the hands of average Americans will increase growth.

Autumn

(45,107 posts)
43. Bernie is right. We shouldn’t worry so much about economic growth if that growth serves
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:35 AM
Sep 2015

to enrich only the wealthiest Americans. We have done that for years. It hasn't worked, I would say we shouldn't worry at all about enriching the wealthiest Americans, we need to tax them at an enormous rate and make them squeal.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
59. Except he's not. Sacrifice is your word, your imagery, your choice, Bernie is not saying any such
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:32 AM
Sep 2015

thing at all. If he wanted to say that, he would. You want to say that, so you are. You can't criticize what Bernie has actually said, so you rephrase it as 'sacrifice growth' and then argue with your own choice of words. It's an interesting behavior, but only an idiot would not notice that you are arguing with your own terminology as a way to avoid actually addressing what Bernie is saying.

You seem to be advocating the 'trickle down' theory, that lots of growth at the top will drip down upon those below. Bernie is saying let's just make things more fair to everyone and not filter every single dime through the top tier and wait for it to trickle down.
You are spouting Reaganomics. It has failed a thousand times.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
62. The OP will not respond.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:42 AM
Sep 2015

I love this quote "Which is why Bernie shouldn't be talking about sacrificing growth." Because of course, Bernie is not talking about sacrificing growth at all, the OP is.
'I put words in your mouth then tell you you are bad to have said them'.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
65. I do believe there is a name for such an argument, where one misrepresenst the views
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:49 AM
Sep 2015

of a person, then argues against those misrepresented views. Oh, what is the name again, let me think...

Autumn

(45,107 posts)
114. The words he used that seem to be invisible to you are
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:47 PM
Sep 2015
"if that growth serves to enrich only the wealthiest Americans."

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
45. We need to start talking about reducing growth
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:44 AM
Sep 2015

And that is going to lead to dismantling capitalism. Climate change and various other problems are being caused by excessive production/consumption/growth demand by our system.

It's not going to be popular to the people benefiting from it, but that's less and less people every year. Right now, it's less than 10%, but 30% of people think they are in the 1%, so...

I suppose we could do the FDR thing and "fix" capitialism again, and try to rebuild our economy, but keep in mind that it took a World War for us to fully recover with. I think we need a more ground based answer this time.

drm604

(16,230 posts)
47. Context!
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:07 AM
Sep 2015

He's saying this in opposition to the right-wing dogma that economic growth should be the overriding goal and that everyone will automatically benefit from such growth.

The idea that everyone will automatically benefit from growth obviously isn't true, as recent experience shows. The goal should be the overall well being of the American people. If providing healthcare, jobs, and environmental protection slows down that growth then that's acceptable.

He's certainly not objecting to the possibility that providing those things might actually lead to more growth (something I believe), just that growth in and of itself isn't sufficient if it doesn't benefit the majority of the population.

He's saying that we shouldn't simply concentrate on growth and assume that all good things will follow.

This seems like something that the majority of the people on on a Democratic website should agree with.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
50. Pish.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:27 AM
Sep 2015

First of all, Sanders doesn't seem to indicate that the economy won't grow.

What he says is "growth for the sake of growth" isn't helping the working and middle classes. Right now, it's only helping the top 1 or 2 percent.

Economically, lifting all boats will grow the economy. It's a fact. We stopped learning that lesson when we moved from a demand model to the supply-side economic model during the Reagan years. Trickle-down, supply-side or "screw the worker" economics has always been voodoo (ask Poppy Bush), so restructuring the growth models will, initially, challenge conventional wisdom.

Sanders knows this.

He knows the vindictiveness of the very upper class. He knows they'll do anything to try and prove that a demand model - one where the worker has the means to cause more production - doesn't work, even if that means slightly hurting themselves in the short term (not hiring, not expanding, etc.) We saw them do it during the Great Recession because they wanted to punish the Obama Administration and all those who voted for it.

The economy may, as a result, shrink overall while they play games to suck in the last of their dying air, but that can't last.

I don't disagree with what these economists say, overall, but what they are forgetting is how dirty and entrenched these top earners and large corporations play when even the slightest sliver of their pie might not make it onto their plates.



Response to DanTex (Original post)

kacekwl

(7,017 posts)
55. I'm sooo tired of hearing
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:09 AM
Sep 2015

about "growth". All these trade agreements have only helped the wealthy become more ridiculously wealthy while taking away wealth from the fading middle class and down. If people have money to spend and the country has money to spend on programs other than a completely bloated military budget that also causes growth and provides actual benefits for more.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
56. You mischaracterize, he does not say 'sacrifice growth' he says pursue healthy growth and equitable
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 11:21 AM
Sep 2015

growth. We want our kids to grow, sure, but we don't generally want them to add excess body mass just to say 'they are getting bigger' we want them to grow in a healthy and balanced way which leads to success not to diabetes and amputations. Growth for the sake of growth is not healthy.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
67. Did I accidentally stumble into Reaganomics Underground or something
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 12:13 PM
Sep 2015

Growth isn't good when all the benefit is going to the top and everyone else is struggling.

Rising tide not lifting all boats and such.

Actually we need to start moving away from a system that depends on constant growth to operate. It's breaking the planet.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
76. Good luck trying to win a presidential campaign arguing that we don't need growth.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:38 PM
Sep 2015

Ironically, Reaganomics is what Bernie is implicitly accepting when he talks about redistributing at the expense of growth, because it's supply-siders are the ones who insist that redistribution will hurt growth.

Progressive economists (e.g. Krugman, Stiglitz) understand that this is not the case. Reducing inequality does not hurt growth, in fact, given the high rates of inequality we have now, it will probably increase growth.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
78. You are reinforcing an inaccurate portrayal
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:43 PM
Sep 2015

"Sacrificing" Growth....No

Healthy growth rates and orienting the economy so it benefits more people and is sustainable for the planet...that's more what he is saying

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
91. and they might
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 02:05 PM
Sep 2015

the key word is "healthy"

Growth has become the mantra to justify and excuse all kinds of awful shit. Usually it's free-market conservatives who trot it out.

The whole discussion has to be broader -- and healthy sustainable growth can also answer the universal political question "What;s in it for me?" and especially "What's in it for me and my kids?"

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
81. But he doesn't say that. You're totally making that up.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:48 PM
Sep 2015

Why do you have to make things up to prove a point? Can't you use honest arguments?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
97. Apparently the drug war is great, too, it just needs more money.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 03:39 PM
Sep 2015

Im learning all sorts of shit from camp HRC today.

Xyzse

(8,217 posts)
68. I believe that is a good thing, as current growth is not sustainable.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 12:20 PM
Sep 2015

Current growth is top heavy, and much of it is built on the idea of commercializing product brand in lieu of innovation, utility and improvement.

Current goods and services are marketed and placing a price that is in no way indicative of its value, particularly as much of it is over manufactured, due to demands on productivity.

We are actually probably finally hitting the snags of that, with more goods in comparison to those that could actually afford to buy it. We have over-supply in manufactured goods that are waaaaay over-priced, but it is being sold due to the brand creating an inflation of demand, which is being propped up by credit.

In doing so also, it has become a commercialization of debt, where what is sold and bartered is the human capital, where a person would pay in monthly struggling to keep up with increased charges.

So yeah, if it would cut down on that type of growth, because much of the growth is through debt, over production and people just struggling to keep paying a monthly to banks, I am ALL FOR THAT.

So, I do not see Bernie's method as a bad thing.

On edit, since I forgot to say this: You are right that this is very hard to explain to the general electorate. I do not know how well this will play, though I am supportive of this idea.

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
73. We ought to talk to the Pope about this.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:30 PM
Sep 2015

I'll bet he would agree that economic growth does not necessarily bring human happiness.

And that "Trickle-Down Jesus" pretty much guarantees human misery.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
74. When 99% of all new 'growth' goes to the top 1%
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:31 PM
Sep 2015

Who squirl the money away offshore, there is no 'growth'. You are a pied piper for the corporate oligarchy.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
79. I'm glad he and I are in agreement.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:44 PM
Sep 2015

Growth is going to kill us eventually. We're not drilling in the arctic and scraping tar sands from Utah sue to shrinkage.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
85. Until balance is obtained the pendulum will make a wide arc. Simply put, Sanders is right.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:58 PM
Sep 2015

Economics and our tax structure does need to be reorganized and simplified.

There is no reason why the average Head of Household should have to seek assistance to file their year end tax return.

Even CPAs are having trouble keeping with laws and regulations and I dare say there can be found loopholes within loopholes.
It is beyond ridiculous and does not fool a thinking, reasonable person. The devil is in the details.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
94. Conservatives claim it is a zero sum game -- it's not
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 03:31 PM
Sep 2015

It's not an either/or choice.

The pie can grow if distributed somewhat more equitably (or spread the wealth, as Obama stated in 2008)...... or not. Whichever, it should be distributed more equitably.

TBF

(32,067 posts)
99. And that is why I support him -
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 03:44 PM
Sep 2015

He understands that the very wealthy are not paying their fair share.

 

HappyPlace

(568 posts)
102. Sorry I'm late to this thread. Now please tell me what the fuck this is all about.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 04:59 PM
Sep 2015

Are we defending wealth inequality and encouraging unsustainable growth?

Sorry if I can't see the point here.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
115. This is one of my many concerns with Bernie as our candidate.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 07:50 PM
Sep 2015

When he says things like that a large number of voters freak out... and not just rich Republicans.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
116. Yes, conservative Democrats who have the same views as the GOP
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 09:55 PM
Sep 2015

Some voters will freak out at anything. And President Obama is a Muslim who was born in Africa.

Do we really want to set the agenda by those people?

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
118. It's getting harder to tell the difference between the two.
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 10:57 PM
Sep 2015

Pretty much cultural issues being the only thing, and even that will not be enough to differentiate a sizable chunk of centrist to conservative Democrats from their Republican counterparts. It seems also that the establishment wants this, with backers, donors and entities that run in the shadows needing to make sure that no matter who wins, they win.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
123. This is rather close to a republican argument.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 08:27 AM
Sep 2015

Seriously, whose side are you really on in terms of policy?

Are you going to tell us that progressive taxation, increasing the minimum wage, and free education are bad for us next?

Is your candidate preference so strong that it is undoing your belief in democratic policies just because Sanders appears to be more for them?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
125. Ironically, it's Bernie who is conceding the supply-side economics talking points here.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 09:29 AM
Sep 2015

The Republican argument is that we can't afford to redistribute wealth because it will hurt growth. Bernie's argument is that, sure it will hurt growth, but I don't care.

The Democratic argument (backed by people like Stiglitz and Krugman) is that reducing inequality doesn't hurt growth, in fact it likely will increase growth, or at worst be growth-neutral.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
127. You paraphrase poorly
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 09:45 AM
Sep 2015

"Where we’ve got to move is not growth for the sake of growth, but we’ve got to move to a society that provides a high quality of life for all of our people."

does not translate to "I don't care."

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
128. How wonderfully dishonest of you.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 09:52 AM
Sep 2015

Seriously.

He is stating rather clearly that the top 1% will have to make sacrifices.

You really are contorting significantly to try to "prove" that bernie wants to wreck the economy.

Give it up. No one is buying this.

NowSam

(1,252 posts)
126. I rec'd the post for what Sanders said
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 09:36 AM
Sep 2015

And I don't think it is a disaster. It is music to my ears. Profit isn't everything. A happier society is a richer society by virtue of everyone enjoying the fruits of the labor and sharing in the prosperity.

Bernie says it all so perfectly and beautifully and I agree 100%.

PatrickforO

(14,577 posts)
129. Ah, the new establishment meme!
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 10:06 AM
Sep 2015

Methinks the Washington Post may be taking some things just a teensy bit out of context.

1) Taxing the corporations who have 'offshored' trillions in untaxed profits will allow massive infrastructure programs, which will CREATE jobs.

2) Overturning the 'free trade' deals will bring jobs back to the United States.

3) Free college will help businesses by ensuring a steadier supply of skilled workers - a look at the US census shows a serious gap in the number of people holding Bachelors degrees between people over 45 (more) and under 34 (far fewer). It can reverse this potentially disastrous trend.

4) Health care as a right, and Medicare for all Americans will immediately remove one of the biggest cost centers across the board for American business. Not having to pay out the nose for healthcare will immediately raise profits. This will put businesses in good position to expand and add jobs as demand for goods and services increases from infrastructure workers.

Redistributing wealth will NOT end economic growth - the face of that growth will change but the growth will continue.

This is just a sample of the either/or fallacy. Either we drill in the arctic OR jobs are lost. Either we continue to pump carbon into the atmosphere OR we will lose jobs...not true.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
131. It's a losing strategy in the GE. Plain and simple.
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 10:26 AM
Sep 2015

Regardless of all the fine points and the complexities of economics Bernie has given the GOP another talking point. Like 85% of DUers the Rs hope Bernie wins the nomination.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
132. Because I think that, long term, we need to change our economic model to one based on sustainability
Thu Sep 3, 2015, 11:34 AM
Sep 2015

rather than growth, I have no problem with this statement.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
135. In and of itself, "growth" only benefits the rich.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 12:24 AM
Sep 2015

If the rest of us aren't sharing in the benefits of "growth" now, there's no possible small rearrangement of the existing order that would let us start sharing them.

"Growth" is a false virtue, like "productivity"...something that sounds virtuous, but is always only good for the few at the expense of the many.

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