Howard Dean claims that Hillary is our best bet for 2016. I disagree.

[JDPriestly]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/09/01/howard-dean-the-case-for-hillary-clinton/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251563738

Dean claims that Hillary is the smartest person in the room. I posted here just the other day that Sanders is the smartest person in the room. I will tell you why below.

I quote from the OP and the Washington Post article.

"Clinton’s three most compelling characteristics continue to be her vast experience in foreign and domestic policy; her tenacity and history of getting things done across the political aisle, particularly as a senator; and the ferocious enthusiasm of her followers, particularly among young women working for true political gender equity that is long overdue."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/09/01/howard-dean-the-case-for-hillary-clinton/

OK. This is going to take some time.

Clinton's experience in foreign policy. In spite of the fact that she had lived in the White House and can claim to have been a close confidante of President Clinton for eight years, she still failed to question the Bush administration's claim that we had to invade Iraq due to WMDs and Al Qaeda. She had to have known that we really didn't know. She should have asked for verified evidence of Bush's claims. Other members of Congress, including Chaffee did.

And when the International Inspection team reported on the eve of our invasion (Vanity Fair April 2004) that Saddam had no WMDs, Hillary should have immediately called on Congress to investigate the lies and should have informed the American people.

Further, with regard to the War in Iraq and her vote, why did it take her so long to recognize the error in that invasion and her vote?

At the time of the vote on the Iraq War Resolution, BERNIE SANDERS, in contrast with Hillary Clinton asked the obvious question: OK, so we invade, we get rid of Saddam, WHAT THEN?

That Hillary did NOT ask that question tells me a lot about Hillary.

That Bernie did ask that question tells me all I need to know about Bernie. BERNIE, not Hillary is the SMARTEST PERSON IN THE ROOM. He asks the central questions.

All of Hillary's experience cannot make her as independent, or resourceful a thinker, a questioner as Bernie. Bernie is the smartest person in the room.

****

What did Hillary get done across the aisle?

Well, one of the things was introducing a law that would have made burning the flag illegal. I love the American flag. I would never burn it, but can you really call reaching across to a Republican to sponsor a law against burning the American flag much of an accomplishment? I don't.

The Flag Protection Act of 2005 was a proposed United States federal law introduced by Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Robert Bennett. The law would have outlawed flag burning, and called for a punishment of one year in jail and a fine of $100,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act_of_2005

Fortunately, it did not pass. What an exercise in pandering to the right wing of America. What a waste of time in retrospect. If that is Hillary's idea of reaching across the aisle, I don't think I want to vote for her. Not that it is wrong, just ????? What is the point?????

For that, she and Bennett got paid????

Wikipedia reviews her relationships with the Republicans. Looks to me like her hands stretched across the aisle were pretty much slapped down in most cases although she has been an effective and strong advocate for women's and children's issues:

As First Lady of the United States, her major initiative, the Clinton health care plan of 1993, failed to reach a vote in Congress. In 1997 and 1999, she played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

On the other hand, she has in more than one instance voted for bills that she should have questioned. If that is what you do when you successfully reach across the aisle, I want nothing of it because the bills that are passed without that questioning affect my life and the lives of other Americans in negative ways.

Clinton voted for the USA Patriot Act in October 2001. In 2005, when the act was up for renewal, she worked to address some civil liberties concerns with it, before voting in favor of a compromise renewed act in March 2006 that gained large majority support.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

At the time the Patriot Act was passed, I (JD Priestly) questioned its definition of terrorism and terrorist act and supporting terrorism, all unclear, potentially vague and overbroad. We all know terrorism when we see it, but so far the law has mostly been applied to people of certain religions and maybe even ethnic backgrounds. The definition is not precise enough. That's a huge problem with a bill that creates criminal penalties especially since precisely where free speech and supporting terrorism intersect is kind of uncertain in some cases.

And then there are the confusing provisions in the Patriot Act that have been used to permit the NSA to violate the privacy of American citizens. I haven't heard much from Hillary even now about the revision of the Patriot Act that is needed. Some of this was to some extent clarified after Hillary left Congress, but the problems with that bill did not prevent Hillary from voting for it. She was not a leader when it came to passing that flawed text.

If passing bad legislation that should have been more carefully written is "compromise," I don't want it. Disagreeing on policy is one thing, but passing a poorly written, ambiguous bill just to please the Republicans is quite another. I'm not voting for a candidate that does that. At least you insist that the bill you pass is clear and doesn't permit the government to violate the rights of citizens.

Bernie, in contrast, voted against the Patriot Act and criticizes in particular the license to snoop and eavesdrop on law-abiding Americans that has been given to the elite core of our intelligence and NSA operations with that and other acts of Congress.

Hillary, again not smart enough, not careful enough, not analytical in her approach. She showed over and over the desire to be accepted by her colleagues rather than the kind of independent thinking and ability to see the big picture that a leader should show, that Bernie showed.

When it comes to leadership ability, Hillary headed the State Department for four years. We do not know why she left. That's most of her leadership experience other than working for non-profits.

Bernie's leadership experience was gained as Mayor of Burlington, Vermont, AN ELECTED OFFICE, to which he was elected in 1981 and re-elected to two-year terms three times, the last in 1987. He ran against well-funded opponents in some cases but was nevertheless picked to lead that city again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

Bernie even has a little teaching experience -- one year at Harvard. I can't quite picture that, but . . . check it out! Pretty impressive for a guy with only a high school diploma and a bachelor's degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

Bernie lost elections when he started out as a politician, but he went on to try and try again, and has won election after election -- re-elected as mayor and to the House and then to the Senate more recently -- over and over. He has proved that he is electable.

Sanders was the first independent elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 40 years, the last having been Frazier Reams of Ohio. He continually won reelection with high margins, with his closest bid during the 1994 Republican Revolution, when he won by 3.3% with 49.8% of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

Sanders filed as a conscientious objector in the Viet Nam War. He did not serve in Viet NAm. Neither did Bill or Hillary Clinton, Dick Cheney or any other president of the US. George W. Bush went into the national guard, stayed at home throughout the war and came as close to serving as any president. But he did not slog through rice fields, survive a POW camp or, as John Kerry did, serve honorably. Bernie's Viet Nam record, therefore, is an irrelevant factoid. I am just throwing in to be sure that it is covered.

Bernie voted against the first Iraq (Kuwait) War but supported bombing in the Kosovo conflict. He voted for the Afghanistan War and against the Iraq War.

Bernie's score on defense and national security is again, a smart one. He is not a pacifist on the one hand, nor a war hawk on the other. In this area, as in virtually all areas, he has shown great insight, far-ranging vision, and instinct for the morally correct choice and great respect for the Constitution and for the individual liberties, the freedom, of American citizens. I for one agree with Bernie's choices when it comes to the use of military force and foreign policy.

Bernie is an outstanding and vocal advocate for Veterans, for their health care, for their rights and for them as people. He is just beyond reproach in this area.

In my view, Hillary Clinton is a strong advocate for women's and children's issues. But that is pretty much it.

I question whether her policy in Syria and Libya has worked well. As many, many refugees make their way into Europe escaping the havoc that ISIS and the various wars in the Middle East are causing, I think that history will have to judge her role in the unrest.
What have we gained? What have the people in the Mideast gained? Do the gains outweigh the losses? Too early to tell, but I am skeptical about our policy there.

Hillary is weak when it comes to willingness to sign and enforce the legislation we need to get our economy back on a road to prosperity for all of us. She is reported to oppose the passage of a 21st century Glass-Steagall Act that would protect taxpayers from yet another bail-out of the Wall Street gamblers.

It is in my view essential that we tell all bankers that they may not gamble on derivatives or other "investment" schemes with depositors or government money. Never. We need to take a new look at what is going on with Wall Street in terms of the use of computers, speed trading and the lack of a sense of fiduciary duty with regard to small investors. We need a new ethics in banking and investment and overall in our business community.

In contrast,

Sanders has been a vocal critic of Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan; in June 2003, during a question-and-answer discussion with the then-Chairman, Sanders told Greenspan that he was concerned that Greenspan was "way out of touch" and "that you see your major function in your position as the need to represent the wealthy and large corporations." Sanders said in 1998 that investment banks and commercial banks should remain separate entities. In October 2008 Greenspan admitted to Congress that his economic ideology was flawed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

Hillary was not in the Senate in 2008 when Congress voted to bail out the banks.

Sanders' heroic stance against that bail-out which resulted in the handing over of tax money to irresponsible, arguably criminal, bankers with almost no conditions, no strings attached that would have protected our economy and ordinary Americans is discussed on Wikipedia.

I ask DUers to view this picture of Bill Clinton signing the Glass Steagall Act which set the stage for Bush's failure to enforce other securities laws and ultimately led to the 2008 crash.

https://www.google.com/search?q=signing+of+repeal+of+glass+steagall&biw=1011&bih=520&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMItb7h1MnWxwIVhDKICh2oGwPz#imgrc=xeF6OSKHnBMATM%3A

Are they clapping or are a couple of them greedily wringing their hands in anticipation of the profits they hope to make? Glee is the word that comes to my mind.

That picture pretty much sums up what "reaching across the aisle" has come to mean for Democrats in our Congress.

It has come to mean trading huge tax cuts for the already under-taxed wealthy corporations and 1% of our population and other benefits for the already rich just to maintain a little bit of the money for food stamps, Medicaid and other programs desperately needed by the poor and working people in our country.

Homeless? You are close to on your own. Make sure you don't leave your shopping cart that holds your bedrolll and other property in front of the house of some rich person or a nice restaurant cause somebody will call the cops if you do.

Democrats like Hillary invariably lose out when they compromise with the right-wing bigots and fanatics in our country. I know the self-appointed "realists" will ask, "What is the alternative? My answer is: a really, really strong fight for the interests of ordinary and low-income Americans. If you are going to lose as badly as Democrats lost in 2014, at least do it for a noble purpose, for fighting for what is right, not because you failed your voters by too readily compromising YOUR VOTERS' AND AMERICAS' INTERESTS.

I could go on and on but I do want to end with one cautionary note.

I agree that most of the Republican s' personal criticism of Hilary is unfounded and unfair. She has the distinction of being the only First Lady to actually be subpoenaed to appear before a federal grand jury. See her Wikipedia page cited above for the sordid facts about the Republican campaign over more than 20 years to tear her down.

The good news is that the attacks on Hillary have failed every time. And that does speak to Hillary's strength.

The bad news is that if we elect Hillary, we will have to deal with the Republican attempts to poison her reputation for the entire term of her presidency. She has become their favorite dog to beat. We know what we think of people who beat their dogs over and over. But that doesn't help.

Bernie is dealing with that Republican libel n the best possible way. He ignores it and he tells the press and everyone that he does not do negative campaigns; he does not do negative ads and he puts the burden on the nasty and hateful to do their thing without his help.

That is so refreshing. And Bernie can turn any question, any negative ad into an opportunity to tell Americans about the good future he wants to bring for our country. That is irresistible in my book. It is so refreshing. Bernie gets my vote on that count alone.

In contrast, the propaganda by the right against Hillary has been extremely successful in turning people against her. I have a friend who is liberal and actually thinks that there is something to one of the hideous stories told about Hillary.

I would support Bernie rather than Hillary even if Hillary were viewed as a courageous, wonderful woman by the Republicans. But the fact that we are going to be subjected to the Republican distracting and false gossip about Hillary if we nominate her is for me a reason to support a candidate who will allow us a better chance to get on with the political dialogue our country needs.

For people who are not sure who to support, I think that all of us should consider whether we really think that Hillary, with all the unfairly negative stuff about her out there, has a chance to win in the general election.

I will bet that just about one or two weeks before the election, the Republicans will trump up some bogus claim about Hillary just in time to prevent her from responding to it. She attracts Republican dirty campaigning like no politician before her.

It's been tough for Obama because of all the ridiculous nonsense thrown at him, all the personal attacks. For Hillary and for us, it will be even worse. Seems impossible, but judging from the past, I have to believe that.

All respect for Howard Dean, but our strongest Democratic candidate is Bernie Sanders. No question about it in my mind.

Sorry for writing such long posts. There is so much to say.

[WDIM]

1. Maybe by 2106 her positions will "evolve" enough

I could vote for her.

I know it was probably a type o but i couldnt resist☺

[LynneSin]

25. In 2106 I'm suspecting I would be dead by then

and for all I care they can vote for Trump by then!

[Flying Squirrel]

31. Hey now

My great-grandkids will still be alive (if I get any).

[WDIM]

47. The Iroquois believed all decisions should consider the impact on the next 7 generations.

So we should be thinkin about 2106 as well.

[LondonReign2]

58. To Hillary's supporters, policy is irrelevant

They aren't voting for her based on policy, so I believe any attempt to persuade based on actual beliefs or policy is doomed to failure. Center-right policy is fine by them, they really don't focus on it.

[Maedhros]

2. You are, of course, correct.

However, all of this - Dean's endorsement, fawning media mavens like Joan Walsh, a multitude of political 'analyses' - is just The Selling of Hillary Clinton (tm).

Hillary is the Democratic candidate least likely to try and change the culture of government. Electing Hillary will result in the fewest changes to the status quo.

And the status quo has been very, very lucrative for many congress persons.

[brooklynite]

63. Of course Sanders would be LESS likely to try and change the culture...if he ended up losing

[Duckhunter935]

3. The question is

Will she evolve back when the big Wall Street donors call in their chips?

Love Howard, but he is wrong.

[Metric System]

4. Is anyone allowed to support Hillary?

[ibegurpard]

5. of course they are!

But you seem to think that because Dean said so all of these people are just going to say "well silly me...better follollow the Dr's orders"? People are NOT supporting Sanders just because they don't like Hillary.

[Metric System]

6. I don't think that at all. It's Sanders supporters who can't seem to allow others to express their

support for Hillary. Just look at how they've inundated Howard Dean's Facebook page.

[JDPriestly]

8. You can write what you want on DU. You can respond to any

thread you wish, and if you have enough posts, you can start your own thread.

I don't know Howard Dean's Facebook page.

[ibegurpard]

9. Oh I know...those awful Sanders supporters!

Dean is a big boy. He'll be OK.

[daleanime]

21. How, by not agreeing with you?

[Metric System]

22. No, by attacking and demonizing anyone who dares to support Hillary over Bernie.

[Ed Suspicious]

27. For fuck sake. There is a massive gap for me between claiming someone is wrong

and that theh are the demon spawn of satan. Nobody in my circle is demonizin Dean. We simply think he's wrong.

[Metric System]

33. Do you think it's OK for Sanders supporters to inundate his Facebook page simply because he

has chosen to support a different candidate? The message is clear, support Hillary and expect to have your social media accounts flooded with negative comments by Sanders supporters.

[Armstead]

39. Yes it's okay...That's why they have that little "write a comment" button

[daleanime]

30. Have I let that stop me...

from telling people why I support Bernie?

Are you saying that you're weaker then me?

[Armstead]

34. The OP was not attacking "anyone who dares to support Hillary"

It was a level headed, factual argument against Dean's points. You are free to disagree or ignore it.

Something wrong with that?

[JDPriestly]

42. Cite the quote from my OP that demonizes anyone who supports

Hillary over Bernie.

Please.

I compare Hillary to Bernie.

On issues relevant to the primaries.

I say that I disagree with Howard Dean. I happen to like him. I just disagree with him on THIS issue.

[JDPriestly]

7. I have stated my opinion, and some of my reasons for it.

Now it is your tturn.

Tell me why you think Hillary is the best candidate.

I am not at all convinced by Howard Dean's reasoning.

Obama did everything he could to work with Republicans. Considering how bitterly Republicans have attacked Hillary since at least 1992, I do not see how she could work with them at all.

At least Bernie Sanders does not pretend to plan to cower in front of the false and insipid ideas of the Republicans.

Although he has often worked with Republicans to bring into legislation strong, pro-American ideas that he espouses -- and succeeded at it.

I believe he worked with Ron Paul (of all people?) to get an audit of the Fed. He can work with Republicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Transparency_Act

The criticisms of establishment Democrats have to do with a desire to exercise control over the Democratic Party and the grass-roots Democrats rather than to serve us.

Bernie wants to serve our interests and us.

[Armstead]

36. Be prepard for crickets....Just that you're a bad person for saying "mean things"

Though I am very impressed by the work and knowledge in your OP

[questionseverything]

50. the fed audit was a huge deal

should be done every year

[BlueCaliDem]

52. "Tell me why you think Hillary is the best candidate." I'll play.

It's very simple really. She doesn't differ all that much from Bernie Sanders when it comes to policies she'd like to push for, and unlike him, she can actually make it happen even with this Congress. In fact, she's far more progressive than her husband was and was already to the left of Obama back in 2008, and she has plenty of allies in Congress to help her. Sanders has none. Well, maybe Rand Paul.

And then there's basic math.

70-80% African-Americans support Hillary Clinton.

73% Hispanics/Latinos (and growing) support Hillary Clinton.

I don't know what the percentage will be among Asian-Americans, but President Obama received 73% of the Asian-American vote in 2012, and I don't doubt we'll support Hillary Clinton (if Joe Biden doesn't declare) over Bernie Sanders. Although we lean Democratic despite being the highest educated and having the highest income of any demographic - including Whites - and therefore should be leaning Republican, outright racist comments and experiencing racism and inequality in our personal lives plays a large role in pushing us to support the Democratic Party but not outright Socialists. We're still semi-conservative in heart and soul (some of us are pretty conservative socially, for example). Bernie Sanders is too liberal for most of us.

Also, according to FiveThirtyEight, Hillary Clinton has all but locked up the lion's share of endorsements from congressional Dems.
102 U.S. House Reps;
30 U.S. Senators;
7 Dem Governors.

Delegates:

She's also locked up 60% of delegates *needed in order to win the nomination.
How important are delegates?
In the 2008 campaign, Clinton actually won a plurality of the Democratic popular vote amassing 18 million votes to Barack Obama’s 17.6 million, but she fell short on the delegate count, losing to Obama by less than 100 delegates.

To date, Bernie Sanders has not gotten a single delegate pledge.

Obama did everything he could to work with Republicans. Considering how bitterly Republicans have attacked Hillary since at least 1992, I do not see how she could work with them at all.

President Obama didn't need Republicans to push through his agenda and that was a good thing since they showed an unprecedented zeal for obstructing him every which way they can. He still beat them - and is doing so now regarding the Iran Deal despite Dems being the minority in both chambers of Congress. Hillary Clinton, apparently, won't need them, either, because she'll have Democrats to back her up. Bernie Sanders, not having made friends in Congress in his 24+ years there, might not.

*edited to add those six words.

[JDPriestly]

54. It's early in the campaign. We haven't even held our first debate.

I was out campaigning last night and was amazed at the support for Bernie Sanders even though I am a Bernie Sanders supporter.

The percentages in the support of various groups of voters will change. I am firmly convinced of that. Right now, the support is extremely high among millennials. Older people will gradually come around. Talked to a few of them last night.

Almost everyone we approached had heard of Bernie and were on board. There was one Tea-Partier and a couple of people too busy to talk. I did not meet one person who claimed to be a Hillary supporter. Not one argument.

I think those numbers would be different among people who have been active in Democratic Party business for some years. I say that based on discussions with activists before Bernie entered the race. They may have changed their minds and may be with Bernie now.

The Bernie movement is much bigger in my part of Southern California than even I would have imagined. It's all about social media.

Remember, last time we had a very large, abrupt change in our media culture (the first widely viewed, televised debates between Kennedy and Nixon in 1960), the election outcome surprised many.

Obama used computer technology well. But in this election, the computer technology and the generation that uses it best seem to be picking Sanders.

And if you look at our history, it is about time for a populist movement to arise and change things.

Finally, the economy, the dominance of big finance, demands change. The only people happy with what is going on with Wall Street and with the role of money, wealthy individuals and corporations in controlling our news and donating to campaigns are those with money. The rest of us do not want Citizens United or the greed on Wall Street and in the huge corporations. Bernie speaks for us on that issue. And he lives what he says.

[onpatrol98]

57. Not a Clinton Supporter yet...

Not a Clinton supporter yet, but that was damn comprehensive...

That's a lot to think about...especially the part about the delegates.

[JDPriestly]

59. Delegates can change their minds. And they will if the primary results suggest that

Bernie can win in the general elections.

Further, the idea that Hillary can work better with the Republicans in Congress has no basis in fact.

Bernie actually has been able to work better with Republicans.
He worked with Ron Paul on auditing the Fed.

He works with Republicans on veterans' affairs.

Hillary is the bete noir, the black beast, one of the most hated figures yet by Republicans. The idea that she can work better with Republicans than Democrats has no basis in fact.

I would say it is a ludicrous idea but I will be accused of using my freedom of speech to insult her.

I'm not insulting her, however, when I say that. She is the only First Lady to have been subpoenaed to a federal grand jury. The amount of hate spewed at her by the right wing is just insane.

The Republicans make a blood sport of going after her, and we are supposed to believe that once she is elected, they will throw away their imaginary knives and start working with her?

I remain unconvinced. I just don't think that will happen.

Bernie doesn't try to approach the Republicans on their home turf. He will go over the Republicans' head and speak to Republican and Democratic voters about issues. He will raise the argument above the usual partisan bickering and onto the plane of fighting over issues.

Why do I predict that he will do that?

Because that is what he is doing in this primary season. That is simply how he thinks and communicates.

Watch his interviews. He can turn the most demeaning, utter put-down of a question into a discussion of an issue that Americans agree on with him.

That's why he doesn't need to do negative campaigning. He likes to talk issues. He thinks issues. He is a problem-solver.

In my life, I have never seen a candidate like Bernie Sanders.

It isn't that Hillary is so dreadful; it is that Bernie Sanders is just so amazing.

Hillary would make a great Secretary of Health & Welfare. I am totally on board with her on women's and children's issues. I think Bernie wants strong policy initiatives in those areas too.

It's just that Bernie would make a much better president than any of the other candidates.

[m-lekktor]

10. Is anyone allowed to disagree with endorsements?

seriously who the f--k isn't allowing somebody to support somebody?!?! disagreement doesn't equal not allowing support of. this isn't rocket science.

[ibegurpard]

13. NO!

Don't you realize how many endorsements Hillary has??? Why won't you LISTEN to those people???

[jwirr]

72. All those endorsements from party leaders who have

NOT been working for us for years now. The party leadership endorsements only make me more angry. This is my party and I do not want the leadership and the super-delegates to select my candidate. Just like I do not want them to use corporate money to buy my vote.

Nor do I want my president to triangulate the benefits of the poor away so that s/he can get some centrist bill passed with the help of the Rs.

I want a president who really cares for people as he has shown for 40+ years. I want someone who is on my side for a change.

[Metric System]

26. If you think bombarding Howard Dean's Facebook page with angry and threatening posts is

OK, then I don't know what to tell you. Why can't somebody choose to support Hillary without having to deal with this mud thrown at them?

[Armstead]

35. I just looked at Dean's page....

Sure a lot of people expressing disagreement with his post announcing his support for Clinton. Some of it angry. But hardly threatening or over the top. Expressing opinions.

[Vincardog]

37. Is the op's factual thoughtful point by point analysis throwing mud? Not in my mind.

[frylock]

62. can you provide examples of some of those "angry and threatening posts"?

[Scootaloo]

14. Has anyone disallowed it?

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. I will take Dean's learned opinion over some guy on the internet. n/t

[TheFarS1de]

28. Speaking of internet opinions...

have you checked out Dean's facebook ? There seems to have been a rather large amount of it delivered that disagrees with his position .

[daleanime]

32. I'll read both....

and decide for myself.

[JDPriestly]

43. But what if my opinion is more learned than his?

Last edited Wed Sep 2, 2015, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I cite examples, specific examples for each of the points I make. His article cites few examples and mostly speaks in generalities. It is "conclusory." That's a word used to mean that somebody solved a problem and arrived at an answer without showing how they got there.

I'd like to know what evidence he has to back up his conclusions.

I tried to provide evidence to back up mine.

And I credit Hillary for the good things she has done on women's and children's issues.

By the way, some DU posters are very "learned."

False assumptions are a trap for the proudly ignorant.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

12. She should live so long.

[WillyT]

15. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

She made her bed...

[FlatBaroque]

16. Reaching across the aisle

Take all the corporate giveaways for clients of the Democratic party PLUS all the corporate giveaways for clients of the Republican party. That is what buy-partisan means.

[JDPriestly]

44. You really said it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. This goes against what Howard has been saying for years

However he may be kicking himself for not supporting Bernie.

[jalan48]

18. I didn't know Hillary co-sponsored a flag burning bill.

Wow-and for what reason?

[dflprincess]

19. I would guess she thought it was a smart political move

like voting for the IWR.

[jalan48]

20. Some Democrats really are turning into Republicans. Unreal.

[John Poet]

23. Yup.

Those flag-burners are just RUINING this country, don'tcha know
and I better vote for this or else those Republicans will tell everyone
how I voted against it, in some negative ads
when I run for president...

[JDPriestly]

60. Flag-burning has always been a major threat . . . . to some dictator somewhere in the world.

Why are we concerned about flag-burning in the US?

I never could understand that. It is a stupid, irrelevant act -- flag-burning that is. Why in the world people bothered with it was always beyond me.

I love our flag. But a bill to make burning it illegal when children are hungry in this country and our schools need to be improved, when some of our people don't have adequate health care? Flag-burning is a priority? It's just inconceivable to me that a member of Congress of Hillary's stature would waste her time sponsoring such an amendment.

But then, she was once president of her college Republican Club. She was quite a Republican when she was young.

[Vincardog]

38. When I learned about flag etiquette burning was the proper disposal method for flags

How do you dispose of old flags if you can't burn them?

[jwirr]

73. Very good question. And yes I learned that also.

[kath]

41. She moistened her finger, put it in the wind, and decided that that was the way to go.

Have wondered for a while now - just how "pruney" does that finger get from doing this over and over and over and...

("Pruney"- you know, like when one has stayed in the bathtub too long)

[Geronimoe]

24. Dean never got over being destroyed by the elite's in his party

Dean knows better than anyone, that you can't fight Party Elites and remain in their Party.

They will eventually knee cap Bernie. We'll see if he is still standing after they have played their dirty tricks.

[JDPriestly]

45. I campaigned for Bernie at a community event tonight, a very casual

event. First time I have gone out and campaigned, leafleting and talking to people about Bernie. In my neighborhood with the crowd that I talked to, it was at least 90% for Bernie. Most people already knew about him and support him wholeheartedly.

May be just the sample of people we met -- all strangers -- I recognized one face. (This is Los Angeles, a huge city.) But I was astounded. I've campaigned a lot for other candidates and have never seen the kind of support I saw tonight for Bernie. And his campaign is just starting.

It is utterly astounding. I cannot believe this.

I don't think they can touch Bernie. He is amazingly popular and the ads haven't even started. So many people said that they just agree with everything he says.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Get out there and ask people about Bernie Sanders. See what the mood is where you live. It may just be my neighborhood.

[oasis]

40. I still remain with Hill, but I must acknowledge the effort

you put into this informative and thoughtful presentation. I have long admired Bernie's spunk and dedication to those who have no voice.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

48. Well done. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. She's a weak candidate now and will be weaker if she gets the nomination.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

49. Hall of Fame post!

JD, you did it dispassionately and comprehensively. Many thanks.

[Thinkingabout]

51. Does this mean Howard Dean is not entitled to have an opinion and to speak freely of his opinion?

I guess I will be agreeing with Howard Dean, this is my opinion and I speak freely about my opinion.

[jeff47]

55. Yes, "I disagree and here is why" is exactly the same

as "Shut up! You are not allowed to have an opinion!"

[Thinkingabout]

65. Think I have heard the "Shut up" comment before.

[jeff47]

67. As have I. Many times. Doesn't mean this person is saying it though.

But lovely attempt to try and ignore the content.

[JDPriestly]

61. Howard Dean is not only entitled to his opinion, but because of the position he has earned,

he is entitled to publish it in a major newspaper.

I am also entitled to my opinion, as are you, but I can't publish my opinion in a major newspaper so I post it on DU.

And you are welcome to post your opinions on DU too.

Actually, my OP does express my opinion, but I back it up with a lot of facts. Takes some work, but Google is our friend. I could have used a much wider variety of sources and written an even longer, more detailed and stronger case.

I hope that as a Hillary supporter, you will post a rebuttal to my OP.

I'm waiting for that.

I think the argument that Hillary will be able to work more effectively with Republicans is specious, worthless. There is utterly no evidence to back it up.

In fact, I can think of no figure living today who is more despised by Republicans than Hillary Clinton. I don't understand that, but it may be because she was once the president of her college Republican club, a staunch Goldwater, conservative Republican and the Republicans feel she betrayed them. That is just a guess.

At any rate, even Obama has not yet been called before a federal grand jury, presumably by Republican operatives. Hillary has.

I would say that the idea that Hillary can work better with Republicans than Sanders can is ludicrous but then I would have to apologize for being overly emotional in my response.

Bernie is just our best candidate, maybe our best candidate ever.

It's not my fault. And Hillary is not the worst ever. She just isn't as good as Bernie. She really isn't as good a candidate as we need to win.

[Thinkingabout]

66. Rebuttal, on the Goldwater staunch supporter, FACT: Goldwater ran for president in 1964.

Fact: Hillary was born in 1947. Fact: In October 1964 Hillary had her 17th birthday so she never voted for Goldwater.

[JDPriestly]

69. She campaigned for him according to Wikipedia.

If that is wrong, then maybe someone should correct Wikipedia.

[Thinkingabout]

70. Did she vote for him?

[Faux pas]

53. Kicketty Kickin'

[pinebox]

56. I don't get it....

Ok, I am going to write this not to slam anybody so you all know, keep that state of mind in check when reading this, mmmk please?

I honestly don't get it. I really don't. I don't understand why so many are supporting Hillary and I'd love an honest explanation why people do. We have a candidate right now who is full of fresh ideas and brings the art of communication to the masses. He's progressive as can be, perhaps even more so than FDR himself, yet many people are supporting a candidate who isn't willing to answer many questions outright on where she stands and is big military and big Wall Street friendly who voted to take us into an unjust war and has made disparaging comments about doing it again.

In the past, she's been on the record for fully supporting the sanctity of marriage along with DOMA and other things. Meanwhile Sanders has opposed those issues since they came about.

She's been wrapped up in controversy for decades. Yes, a lot of it is RW crap but it's had a massive impact on people and that shows among the majority of American's. I worry that if she is elected, the gridlock would be utterly impassible and much worse than what we have now considering how polarizing she is and I do believe she's far more polarizing than Obama considering this is rooted in decades. Look, I'll be blunt but RW'ers see her just as Libs see Palin, she's THAT polarizing.

I'd like to know why so many of you support her. AN honest question and I'm not looking argue but simply understand why so many support a candidate whose stance seems to change with the direction of the wind or can't say where she stands and whose big donors are Wall Street, big banks and the for profit private prison industry.

Thank you.

[JDPriestly]

71. Thanks.

[ibegurpard]

64. Stop being mean to Howard!

You awful, awful Sanders supporter!

[Uncle Joe]

68. And there is this.

Thanks for the thread, JDPriestly

[JDPriestly]

74. More facts about this: (from a report published in 2005)

Actually, Mrs. Clinton has a mixed record on the bankruptcy bill, which wended its way through Congress over the course of several years, and on fighting the banks, which are a major constituency and major source of campaign contributions in New York.

The bankruptcy legislation was sought by banks and credit card companies, which wanted to make it harder for consumers to use the bankruptcy laws to walk away from their debts.

As first lady, Mrs. Clinton worked against the bill. She helped kill one version of it, then another version passed, which her husband vetoed. As a senator, in 2001, she voted for it, but it did not pass. When it came up again in 2005, she missed the vote because her husband was in the hospital, although she indicated she would have opposed it.

. . . .


The bill popped up again 2001, which was Mrs. Clinton’s first year in the Senate. She worked with Republicans on it and was one of 36 Democrats who helped it pass the Senate, saying it had been improved from when she opposed it. Still, this version was vigorously opposed by consumer groups and unions, and ultimately did not become law.

More

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/clinton-and-the-bankruptcy-law/?_r=0

The 2005 bankruptcy bill hurt students and former students with student debt really badly because it excludes a broad range of education or student loan debt from eligibility for discharge, that is forgiveness by a bankruptcy court.

This means that a business executive, let's take Trump as an example, can take his corporations into bankruptcy court and either hold the threat of a discharge or forgiveness of the money he owes his lenders, his creditors over their heads until they forgive some of it but a 24-year-old who owes $40,000 in student loans and for some reason cannot pay them cannot get that debt forgiven by the bankruptcy court in most cases. It's much harder for the student to get an education-related loan forgiven by the court than some spendthrift, irresponsible corporation.

To me, that is a perversion of justice.

Students should be able to go to school for free.

Some suggest that students who get the forgiveness of college or post-secondary education debt should have to volunteer or work to pay back the debt. That reminds me very much of the old indentured servitude system when immigrants to America in the early days of our country were indentured servants for a period of time, even years in situations like a sort of slavery that had a predictable end (not meaning to make of slavery less of a wrong, less of a crime, but to indicate the kind of relationship that the indentured servant potentially had with the master for the duration of the servitude. So I think that is not the answer.

To me, the answer is to tax everyone to support state schools and to lower or provide free tuition for state schools.

Bernie is on the right track with regard to student loans in my view.