2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary: Abortion should be rare, abstinence is vital and let's find "common ground" with other side!
Last edited Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:12 AM - Edit history (3)
Sarcastic OP changed for those who can not be troubled to read carefully.
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Whew... it was a good thing that wasn't Sanders at all. It was Hillary "Sanctity of Marriage" Clinton.
In 1994, according to Sally Bedell Smiths book, For Love of Politics, Hillary said she was not comfortable with distributing condoms in schools. Hillary promoted abstinence from pre-marital sex in her 1996 book, It Takes a Village, and surprised many reporters by declaring in a 2005 speech to family planning activists that research shows that the primary reason that teenage girls abstain is because of their religious and moral values. We should embrace thisand support programs that reinforce the idea that abstinence at a young age is not just the smart thing to do, it is the right thing to do. In It Takes a Village, Hillary is also critical of adults for being too quick to divorce, arguing that children without fathers, or whose parents float in and out of their lives after divorce, are precarious little boats in the most turbulent seas.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Surgeon General Elders got fired by Bill Clinton for supporting by encouraging contraceptives and masturbation instead of unsafe sex.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Source: Senate debate in Manhattan , Oct 8, 2000
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm
Bernie believes it should always be a woman's choice, not a politician's.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)this stance is completely in keeping with what kept me safe and legally protected.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)As someone who almost died from a botched abortion, I resent the right wing's interference and their manipulative tactics - these laws do not protect women.
The decision to abort a fetus should be between a woman and her physician.
Period.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)not unduly restrict, and I support her stance on abortion, and on abstinence, fully.
No girl should be pressured into early sex. Girls should be empowered to say no, if they wish.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And no one is saying girls should be pressured into sex.
Hillary's pandering to the anti-choice right is coming back to haunt her.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)them. Like it or not, the state does have an interest in fetal life after the point of viability. That is settled law of the land for about 50 years now.
And HRC is right--abstinence is important. It is absolutely a choice that girls and women should have, and it is a choice that should be supported.
HRC isn't pandering....she's talking sense.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Women don't make this decision lightly, I trust them.
Thats right when my patients find out about devastating fetal defects.
The Texas House of Representatives this week passed HB2, a bill to prohibit abortions after 20 weeks of gestation. Many opponents of abortion may hope this means that all late mid-term fetuses in Texas would soon be carried to term and live healthy lives instead of being terminated. But lost was any discussion of why women might seek a late mid-term abortion in the first placeand the unintended, counterintuitive effects of a ban on such procedures, which might even increase the total number of abortions.
Abortions today are common. At current rates, it is estimated that roughly 1 in 3 women will have one by the time they reach 45 years of ageincluding in places like Texas. One important reason is that half of all pregnancies are unintended. The cause isnt just unprotected sex; as I wrote last year in Slate, many forms of birth control are much less reliable than many women realize. For example, 5 percent of women on the pill still get pregnant each year.
Of the roughly 7 million American pregnancies each year, about 1 million end in abortion. However, almost all of the procedures are performed early in pregnancy. According to the Guttmacher Institute, only about 1 percent of abortions are performed after 20 weeks of gestation (a normal pregnancy is 40 weeks), which are those banned by the proposed Texas law.
Why do some women wait so long? The answer is that comprehensive fetal testing, such as anatomical sonograms and ultrasounds of the heart, are typically performed just before 20 weeks of gestation. Such scans are critical for uncovering major birth defects, such as anencephaly (severe brain malformations), major heart defects, missing organs and limbs, and other severe birth defects. Fetal development is a complex process that often goes awry. Roughly 2 percent of all pregnancies are complicated by a major birth defect, and of those about 0.5 percent have a chromosomal defect, such as an extra or missing segment of normal DNA. Birth defects are a leading cause of infant mortality, and in many cases of severe birth defects, no medical treatment can salvage a fetuss life or result in any measure of normal future health.
I am a pediatric cardiologist and work in a tertiary care center specializing in high-risk pregnancies. When helping families cope with major birth defects, our medical team tries to educate families about the full range of choices available to them, including advanced treatments that can help many major birth defects. But we also are clear about the severe challenges that other fetuses may face as newborns, and the limitations of modern medicine. Many loving families choose to continue their pregnancies, and we do our best to help them in every possible way. But some families faced with severe fetal disorderssevere brain defects, entirely abnormal gut structures, devastating chromosomal problemschoose not to carry to term and request referral to an abortion provider.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/07/texas_abortion_ban_after_20_weeks_prenatal_testing_reveals_birth_defects.html
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)mother does not interfere with the type of abortion you are talking about....abortion because of severe fetal defect.
After all....the health of the mother encompasses her mental health, and any woman who feels they cannot carry and care for a severely disordered fetus should have the choice to terminate. HRC supports that, and I think she is right to do so. No reasonable legislation would restrict such a choice.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The threatand theaterbehind the 20-week abortion bills aimed at the heart of Roe v. Wade.
THE FIGHT OVER BANNING ABORTIONS after 20 weeks is as old as Roe v. Wade. (Older, actuallymore on that below.) In Roe, the Supreme Court established the right to abortion by forbidding states from banning the procedure anytime before viability, when fetuses can be expected to survive outside the womb. Experts maintain that viability truly begins at 24 weeks after a pregnant woman's last period, or about 22 weeks after fertilization. (The most rigorous and widely accepted way to date a pregnancy is by counting the weeks since a pregnant woman's last period. The House bill and the majority of state 20-week bans, however, measure pregnancy from the fertilization of the egg; in medical terms, a 20-week ban is actually a 22-week ban.)
Yet proponents of banning abortion at 20 weeks insist that there are cases of infants born that early who survive. It's true that since Roe, medical advances have enabled a tiny, yet unknown, number of preterm infants to be born in the middle of the second trimester. But almost none survive. One study found that 85 percent of infants born 20 weeks after fertilization die within 12 hours. Another study found that 98 percent are born with major health issues such as brain hemorrhaging; 93 percent die within a year. The University of California-San Francisco Medical Center states that no infants born earlier than 21 weeks have survived.
Anti-abortion rights groups such as Americans United for Life, which authored several states' 20-week bans, deny that they are targeting Roe's viability rule. Instead, they focus on 20 weeks postfertilization because, they claim, it's the point at which fetuses experience pain. "Many of them cry and scream as they die," Franks says. But the scientific consensus roundly rejects this idea: For one, the relay path between the thalamus and the cerebral cortexthe connection that allows the brain to recognize painis not fully developed for another six weeks. The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says that the developmental milestones at 20 weeksnamely, the appearance of hairare no more significant than those coming before or after.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/01/republican-abortion-ban-20-weeks
The Republicans are not trying to protect women and viable fetuses, they are trying to restrict my reproductive choices and any Democrat who sides with them is allowing them to do so.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)would restrict you from having a late-term abortion that takes into account your health or life.
FYI--any article that conflates the Casey viability line and the Roe trimester construct is a poorly-written one.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I think it exposes the reasons Republicans are pushing these bans and why Democrats should oppose them:
Abortion opponents have used this information to suggest that women who have late abortions are irresponsible. "It's important to keep in mind that the vast majority of late-term abortions are performed on healthy mothers, on healthy babies," says Maureen Ferguson, a senior policy adviser for the conservative Catholic Association. Her group has called these abortions "inhumane.""People don't like the idea of late abortions," Pollitt says. "It's hard to mobilize sympathy for that." The proposed ban, she continues, will appeal to "people who don't know anything about what women go through to get an abortion."
This decision should be between a woman and her physician.
Period.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)It is settled legal precedent with the state does have interest in late term fetal life. If you're going to have a legal argument with me at least argue the facts not what you wish would happen.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And I'm sick of seeing right wing talking points used on DU, especially by people who should know better.
This isn't a matter for the courts, it's something that should be left up to women and physicians.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)The state has an interest in late term fetal life. that precludes decision-making between a woman and her doctor alone when you're talking past the point of viability.
I didn't make that law. I'm simply saying what the law actually is.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm one of those radical pro-abortion feminists who wants the US to be more like Canada.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Works for women in Canada.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)I literally can't believe that hillarians are now going to accept anti choice positions.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)has outlined the state's interest in fetal life. HRC's stance is correct legally, and protects women.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)headlines. n/t
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Bernie in the title, when later it is attributed to Clinton.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)1994 was a very different time. But........
I don't mind them encouraging abstinence. It is the abstinence only programs that have proven to be a dismal failure. Additionally, and contrary to the assertion of the dippy fundies, access to condoms and birth control does not encourage sex.
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)About being reading disabled was completely uncalled for.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)PADemD
(4,482 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)I suppose that is something.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Tough to top that
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)I'm not a hedge fund manager or investment banker, I have nothing to offer Hillary, nor do I have anything she wants.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)girls being empowered to say no to early sex. Girls should absolutely have the power to make choices that reflect their values, even if you do not agree with them.
What, precisely, is wrong with a 15-year-old girl saying "no" to sexual intercourse?
Laser102
(816 posts)No way are they ready for the consequences their actions may have. I think most young girls regret having sex at an early age. It can be devastating and life changing. Opportunities they may have had can be changed with a pregnancy. Emotionally and mentally they are still immature. However, should an unwanted pregnancy occur, all options should be available. I think Hillary has it right.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Should shed some light on the nuances of the issue. As a starting point.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)are the way to go?
Any girl who wishes to practice abstinence, even one you think are poorly educated, should be supported in their choice.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)including religious education and all that stuff.
Hillary knows who she was talking to when she said "common ground" to anti-choicers.
And you should know that includes the kind of people like those creepy "Promise keepers" or "Oath Givers" or whatever they're called.
Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)
seabeyond This message was self-deleted by its author.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Democratic values on social issues, or she'd simply be a Republican.
Oh, wait, what? Abstinence, dislike of contraception, and religious values dictating sexual activity?
This is a Democrat?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)And I see nothing about HRC that indicates a dislike of contraception. I mean....she's got only one kid. That's not by coincidence, I imagine.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)But also in Living History she said, "The Clinton Administration's policy was to make abortion 'safe, legal, and rare.'" pp. 641
The name of the chapter that quote came from (I kid you not): Third way.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)that thing she was saying about "moral values"?.....
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)What, precisely, is wrong with that?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I know you are a lawyer and that probably comes very naturally, but your particular situation is not the only relevant one.
Abstinence education includes many things that are not as open-minded and progressive as I am sure your parenting is.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)With what Hillary Clinton was talking about. She was in no way shape or form condoning ignorant abstinence education that is based in fear mongering. What what she was saying is extremely important girls have the right to say no.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Abstinence is a choice, one choice not THE choice..all forms of birth control should be available to women and yes, girls, AND it should be affordable. Rare doesn't enter into it, at all. She's pandering to the enemy...a good third way effort on her part that will empower the nay sayers and small minded not women and girls. Choice not restrictions, not sermons, not slut shaming. Choice. Hillary is not for choice she's for restrictions.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)Personal choices and HRC's Wall Street "morals"...
Vinca
(50,282 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)"Sarah Palin's daughter, advocate for abstinence, says she is pregnant (again)"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/26/us-people-bristolpalin-idUSKBN0P62H120150626
Metric System
(6,048 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)betsuni
(25,546 posts)HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA --- oh, it's too much, so funny, thanks for the laffs!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Too boring.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)that marriage had always been and should be a sacred bond between a man and a women and was very concerned with the sanctity of marriage.
Many that live in NYS remember her stances and the re branding effort is less successful with us because we DO remember her positians.
still_one
(92,250 posts)something else is B.S.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)People Not Governments should rightfully make decisions individually and without interference by those who hold different values and opinions.
If ya don't like cannabis---Do Not Use it.
If you don't like Spinach---Don't Eat it.
If you disagree with Abortions---don't get one.
No one would rob a mother her right to die from her pregnancy, but others Are forcing women to die, against their will, by these Prohibitions.
My body? My Choice. Butt Out.