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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:19 PM Aug 2015

Sorry far left/far right. Hillary is not a felon.

It's embarrassing to have to explain this on DU as opposed to FR, but all of the crazies salivating over the prospect of Hillary being tossed in jail due to the email thing are going to be disappointed.

No, her emails were not classified. Classified has a specific meaning, there's a process that happens before documents are classified, and unless things are designated a classification (e.g. "secret" or "top secret&quot , they are not classified. There has been some confusion over this.

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that if a person intentionally leaks information that has not been marked as classified in such a way that compromises national security, then they can still be held criminally accountable. But nobody has suggested anything of the sort with Hillary. Everyone on both sides of the aisle understands that this is about trying to snag Hillary in some technicality.

Another part of the confusion comes from one sentence in executive order 13526, which deals with the procedure for classifying information:

(d) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.


This is the origin of the idea that any foreign government information is automatically "classified" even if it is not marked as such. Now, it should be obvious from the get-go that this is not what this means. First of all, that sentence doesn't have the word "classified" (or "secret" or "top secret" etc.) in it. Second, "foreign government information" is far too broad a category to automatically classify, because it includes, for example, the fact that Cameron is PM of the UK.

In any case, the context of this sentence clarifies everything:
Section 1.1. Classification Standards. (a) Information may be originally classified under the terms of this order only if all of the following conditions are met:

(1) an original classification authority is classifying the information;

(2) the information is owned by, produced by or for, or is under the control of the United States Government;

(3) the information falls within one or more of the categories of information listed in section 1.4 of this order; and

(4) the original classification authority determines that the unauthorized disclosure of the information reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security, which includes defense against transnational terrorism, and the original classification authority is able to identify or describe the damage.

(b) If there is significant doubt about the need to classify information, it shall not be classified. This provision does not:

(1) amplify or modify the substantive criteria or procedures for classification; or

(2) create any substantive or procedural rights subject to judicial review.

(c) Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information.

(d) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.

First off, notice the word "may". Nothing is automatically classified. Next, notice sub-point (1): classified information must be designated as such by an "original classification authority," which is a person who has the power to classify things. Finally, notice that the sentence that the far left/far right has seized upon comes under sub-point (4), which describes the criteria that an original classification authority uses in order to assign a classification to a document. What (d) does is it gives the authority more leeway to classify foreign government information, in that the requisite damage to national security if the information were disclosed is presumed, and need not be justified.

In terms of the Hillary emails, what this means is that if someone with the authority to classify information had decided to classify it at the time, they could have done so more easily with the emails that contained foreign government information than with the ones that didn't. But since nobody actually classified that information, this is completely irrelevant -- the emails were not classified at the time, so the rules for handling classified information were not applicable.

In case there is still any confusion here, the executive order goes on to explicitly describe what has to happen when information gets classified:
Sec. 1.6. Identification and Markings. (a) At the time of original classification, the following shall be indicated in a manner that is immediately apparent:

(1) one of the three classification levels defined in section 1.2 of this order;

(2) the identity, by name and position, or by personal identifier, of the original classification authority;

(3) the agency and office of origin, if not otherwise evident;

(4) declassification instructions, which shall indicate one of the following:
...
(5) a concise reason for classification that, at a minimum, cites the applicable classification categories in section 1.4 of this order.
...


So there you have it. Classified information is marked as classified. Hillary's emails were not. This has been, and continues to be, a political witch-hunt.
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Sorry far left/far right. Hillary is not a felon. (Original Post) DanTex Aug 2015 OP
You can't convince those who hate her. hrmjustin Aug 2015 #1
No you can't. But what you can do is make it crystal clear that the people attacking her from DanTex Aug 2015 #3
Call them out for their trollish behavior. hrmjustin Aug 2015 #4
Free Republic BANS people here. randys1 Aug 2015 #5
You are absolutely correct. As Rachel Madow said a little over a month ago, if Hillary Clinton still_one Aug 2015 #53
And if Hillary could spin hay into gold those who hate her asjr Aug 2015 #69
Facts do not matter to her haters Gothmog Aug 2015 #84
This message was self-deleted by its author DanTex Aug 2015 #2
Also interesting that many of the folks suddenly so worried about protecting classified information Cali_Democrat Aug 2015 #6
Oh this exactly cali_dem mcar Aug 2015 #21
I know -- amazing hypocrisy. n/t pnwmom Aug 2015 #32
I used to have a friend who enjoyed the tune "Listen to the Mockingbird." MADem Aug 2015 #55
let me explain the difference to you questionseverything Aug 2015 #59
You beat me to that! Funny how that works. George II Aug 2015 #60
Oh, it's OK for Eddie to steal classified data.. but "Hillary's a Felon".. well then ES is a Felon Cha Aug 2015 #99
"Not a felon" is certainly a plus when it comes to running for President. Ron Green Aug 2015 #7
Obviously, she is much more than that, which is why it is embarrassing to have to post this on DU. DanTex Aug 2015 #9
What is more embarrassing is posters here accusing her of violating the Espionage Act of 1917 DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #13
Don't forget subsection Sec, 793(f), applies to negligent mishandling of classified information. leveymg Aug 2015 #130
They were prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. §1924 and not the Espionage Act. DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #131
Excerpts from a CRS study of classified information case law shows Espionage Act prosecutions: leveymg Aug 2015 #135
Do we have evidence of this in the DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #137
The Judge held that 793(e) would apply, so Kiriakou plead down. How does that prove your argument? leveymg Aug 2015 #138
What part of ... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #139
OMG, this. hifiguy Aug 2015 #22
She's also not a serial killer ToxMarz Aug 2015 #43
"I'm not a crook." Richard Millhouse Nixon Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2015 #8
Umm, except that Nixon actually was a crook. DanTex Aug 2015 #10
And what, pre, else is she NOT, Othello? LuvLoogie Aug 2015 #15
What's your point? You DO think she's a felon? George II Aug 2015 #58
I don't know. Do you? Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2015 #64
Since it's been proven over and over again that in regard to the email "scandal", she didn't.... George II Aug 2015 #66
I think that citizens are supposed to scrutinize candidates. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2015 #71
Has that been proven? Links? leveymg Aug 2015 #140
DUers have gone to attacking Hillary as the would a Republican. liberal N proud Aug 2015 #11
It's actually worse than most Republicans, who stop short of calling her a felon. DanTex Aug 2015 #12
I read that riversedge Aug 2015 #29
Not quite. okasha Aug 2015 #57
Sad for them.. says everything about them and nothing about their target. Cha Aug 2015 #102
Yet. bahrbearian Aug 2015 #14
Where is her felony exposure? DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #16
... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #17
I have read extensively on du that she's more liberal than Sanders Doctor_J Aug 2015 #18
Because the far left is dissociated from reality. DanTex Aug 2015 #20
The Reality of the Democratic Party hifiguy Aug 2015 #24
That's great. I like both Hillary and Bernie, and would be happy with either as president. DanTex Aug 2015 #26
in what way? Doctor_J Aug 2015 #25
Here's the felony accusation, 43 recs and counting: DanTex Aug 2015 #28
lol, well said and that is becoming more evident. R B Garr Aug 2015 #89
Because "far left" is a pejorative used disingenuously by political hacks Maedhros Aug 2015 #36
You're right Buzz cook Aug 2015 #92
Never said or even hinted she was but she was pretty far afield from best practices and not in TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #19
I wasn't talking about you personally, but the allegation has been made on DU (and highly recced). DanTex Aug 2015 #23
Sure, I didn't gather you were exclusively speaking to that TheKentuckian Aug 2015 #141
We need an 11th commandment in this party, desperately. ericson00 Aug 2015 #27
Cnn-->Scrutiny over Clinton email raises questions of over-classification riversedge Aug 2015 #30
There is no doubt that over-classification is a huge problem. Maedhros Aug 2015 #37
The FBI will be the final arbiter of that. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #31
The FBI has already said SHE is not a target, which has a specific meaning pnwmom Aug 2015 #35
That's a political response and does not exonerate her in any way, shape, or form. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #38
Do you have inside info?--that the FBI's comment was political? riversedge Aug 2015 #40
You mean besides common sense? AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #42
Well, I have no writing on my wall. No matter riversedge Aug 2015 #67
In the opinion of AtomicKitten on DU. The truth is the FBI is not targeting her. pnwmom Aug 2015 #44
There is plenty of info you are ignoring while mired in the culture of personality. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #45
Where are your links? The NYTimes has had to walk back story after story after story. pnwmom Aug 2015 #46
All they are guilty of is jumping the gun on the story. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #47
Still waiting for those links so I can be as informed as you think you are. n/t pnwmom Aug 2015 #49
I'm not doing your homework for you. You have 10 fingers and Google. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #52
You made the empty claim against HRC. Unless you can post something specific for me to respond to, pnwmom Aug 2015 #72
your denial is precious AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #76
You can't disprove a puff of air. pnwmom Aug 2015 #91
Blovaiating is some folks raison d'etrte. DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #80
You've demonstrated that convincingly. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #85
Rent free... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #88
You will be waiting a long time... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #62
Because nothing says "I'm confident of my position" like name-calling. AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #68
Res ipsa loquitur DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #74
vous êtes une personne idiote AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #75
Sticks and stones might break my bones... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #79
Your schtick is so '08, AtomicKitten Aug 2015 #82
She has lots of support... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #87
Ouch Bobbie Jo Aug 2015 #119
Yeah, calling a fellow DU member a "fascist" qualifies as name calling... DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #122
CNN and Reuters: Inspector Generals concluded Clinton emails presumed classified leveymg Aug 2015 #116
Thank you. None of these links prove that the now supposedly classified information pnwmom Aug 2015 #118
UR missing a link Besides, interpretation of presumed classified law and EO aren't DOS jurisdiction leveymg Aug 2015 #120
LOL. The link was the Reuters link YOU provided. Somehow you skipped pnwmom Aug 2015 #123
Again, the State Dept has not determined whether laws have been violated. That is a fallacy leveymg Aug 2015 #124
Yes, it's a fallacy that you yourself promoted when YOU claimed she'd committed a felony. pnwmom Aug 2015 #125
I agree about overclassification and that the law is too broad, but HRC appears to have broken it. leveymg Aug 2015 #128
Funny, the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community Maedhros Aug 2015 #33
That letter was referring to RETROACTIVELY classified information, pnwmom Aug 2015 #48
The letter is referring to "presumed classified information" that was found in Hillary's email. leveymg Aug 2015 #126
"presumed" by some and not by others. The matter is in dispute. n/t pnwmom Aug 2015 #127
Presumed means by its nature classified at the moment of creation. leveymg Aug 2015 #129
So does Donald Trump! R B Garr Aug 2015 #83
You're the one suggesting that... MattSh Aug 2015 #94
Those are Donald Trump's talking points, as weii. He's very "concerned" about Hillary. n/t R B Garr Aug 2015 #96
I don't think of Hillary as a felon. Rather, someone who exercised poor judgement on a big decision. jalan48 Aug 2015 #34
I tend to agree - I don't see a felony in all this, and I don't expect she will be charged. Maedhros Aug 2015 #41
Vote for Hillary: She is not a felon! tularetom Aug 2015 #39
That's a winning tag line if I've ever heard one! Indepatriot Aug 2015 #51
Vote for BS he's not a felon, either. Cha Aug 2015 #100
And he is trying to do something to help those subjected to the "F" Live and Learn Aug 2015 #111
Thanks for the clarification. So many of us were confused by her running as a felon. Live and Learn Aug 2015 #50
Actually, it's in response to a silly Op calling her a Felon. And, I'm glad the OP layed this out. Cha Aug 2015 #101
It may have been a silly OP but it didn't call her a felon. Live and Learn Aug 2015 #104
Huh? Felon. Noun. A person who has committed a felony. DanTex Aug 2015 #106
Actually, and you know it as well as I, in the USA at least, a person Live and Learn Aug 2015 #107
The term for that is "convicted felon". As the person who wrote the OP, I can assure you that DanTex Aug 2015 #108
You are mistaken. If that were true, surely most of the people in the country, probably including Live and Learn Aug 2015 #109
Umm, speak for yourself. I've never committed a felony. Not sure who you're hanging around with. DanTex Aug 2015 #112
Are you sure? Lots of laws out there you know. Live and Learn Aug 2015 #114
She is innocent until proven guilty. That word felon shouldn't even be around yet. n/t jtuck004 Aug 2015 #54
Excellent post. I called out someone earlier today for saying Clinton is a felon: George II Aug 2015 #56
Great headline! Ino Aug 2015 #61
Not a felon--- Just part of a couple that seems to have a knack for stepping in cow pies Armstead Aug 2015 #63
I'm not a centrist, and I'm tired of centrists. Mugweed Aug 2015 #65
"centrists are just trying to please everyone" kjones Aug 2015 #70
He didn't say that Dems shouldn't help people. He implied they try to PLEASE everyone adigal Aug 2015 #81
LOL. And if I walk out of Target with unpaid-for merchandise, it's not stolen if I had someone TwilightGardener Aug 2015 #73
Thank you taking the time to put together your OP. It is very riversedge Aug 2015 #77
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Aug 2015 #78
Actually ... NanceGreggs Aug 2015 #90
^^^THIS exactly. R B Garr Aug 2015 #142
Great OP Gothmog Aug 2015 #86
I question everyone that is trying to get elected Unknown Beatle Aug 2015 #93
This post reminds me of Richard Nixon saying, "I am NOT a crook!" PatrickforO Aug 2015 #95
Actually it has nothing to do with dick nixon.. it's countering a silly OP calling Hillary a Felon.. Cha Aug 2015 #98
Thank you for laying all this out, Dan. It does help counteract the goPropaganda posted on Cha Aug 2015 #97
Thanks. I agree it won't change the minds of the mindless, but it's still good to have some DanTex Aug 2015 #105
Any one with that kind of money is. Jappleseed Aug 2015 #103
Even this guy DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2015 #110
More hyperbole from the lackluster campaign Android3.14 Aug 2015 #113
Speaking of hyperbole... brooklynite Aug 2015 #121
perhaps you do not know the definition of hyperbole Android3.14 Aug 2015 #132
Thanks for the name-calling TBF Aug 2015 #115
Wow! Supercalifragi... er, excellent analysis! rock Aug 2015 #117
I've just been cruising RW sites, in the spirit of "know your enemy" ismnotwasm Aug 2015 #133
Hillary Clinton is absolutely not a felon! smiley Aug 2015 #134
DanTex, please direct me to the Winnbego where the Far Left resides. Thanks. Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #136

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
3. No you can't. But what you can do is make it crystal clear that the people attacking her from
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:25 PM
Aug 2015

the fringes on either side are motivated purely by irrational hatred.

still_one

(92,204 posts)
53. You are absolutely correct. As Rachel Madow said a little over a month ago, if Hillary Clinton
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:19 PM
Aug 2015

came out with the cure for cancer, the haters would still still say it isn't good

asjr

(10,479 posts)
69. And if Hillary could spin hay into gold those who hate her
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:25 PM
Aug 2015

would call it Fools Gold. I have felt the hatred for her on DU.

Response to DanTex (Original post)

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
6. Also interesting that many of the folks suddenly so worried about protecting classified information
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:34 PM
Aug 2015

were many of the same folks who applauded Snowden when he stole and disclosed loads of classified documents.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
55. I used to have a friend who enjoyed the tune "Listen to the Mockingbird."
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:26 PM
Aug 2015

The friend would sing the words "Listen to the bullshit fly" to that tune, and it would crack me up. The "situational concern about national security" is a perfect example that calls for some music...!

When I read some of these crazed, conspiracy-theory, hate-filled, foam-at-the-mouth posts about HRC, I have to think of that song.

If people don't want to be known by their words, they might try biting their tongues.

These are PUMAs of a different sort...they don't care about the Democratic Party at all, if it gets in the way of the canonization of Saint Bernard....

questionseverything

(9,655 posts)
59. let me explain the difference to you
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:30 PM
Aug 2015

snowden released classified information about what our government is illegally doing to "we the people"

as sos hillary worked for "we the people" and as her employers we are entitled to all of her communications for the historical record, legal inquiries, ect

since she used a private server and took it upon herself to delete the "personal" e mails and then scrub the server "we the people" can not ever know if she also deleted sos emails that might of looked less than complimentary or what

you see our entire form of government is set up with checks and balances, hillary has stopped us from doing our part...i did not like it when bush deleted thousands of emails over the us attorney scandal and i do not like that a democratic candidate does it either,wether anything was hidden or not

it really seems to be an unforced error on her part

Cha

(297,271 posts)
99. Oh, it's OK for Eddie to steal classified data.. but "Hillary's a Felon".. well then ES is a Felon
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:01 AM
Aug 2015

too.

Good point, Cali.

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
7. "Not a felon" is certainly a plus when it comes to running for President.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:35 PM
Aug 2015

Perhaps, though, we could ask for much more.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
9. Obviously, she is much more than that, which is why it is embarrassing to have to post this on DU.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:37 PM
Aug 2015

But, unfortunately, the far-right-wing email talking points have somehow found their way to DU, and need to be rebutted.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
13. What is more embarrassing is posters here accusing her of violating the Espionage Act of 1917
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:48 PM
Aug 2015

What is more embarrassing is posters here accusing her of violating the Espionage Act of 1917 which was crafted to prosecute spies, subversives, and those who deliberately leaked classified information.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
130. Don't forget subsection Sec, 793(f), applies to negligent mishandling of classified information.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:11 PM
Aug 2015

There have been several prosecutions of lesser officials on this ground who placed classified materials on home computers and data devices without the intention to leak them.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
131. They were prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. §1924 and not the Espionage Act.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:18 PM
Aug 2015

They were prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. §1924 and not the Espionage Act. The former is a misdemeanor which will get you a slap on the wrist and a public shaming, the latter will get you time in the hoosegow, and that's why the latter has only been used on spies, traitors, subversives, and deliberate leakers.

And the elements needed to establish to convict under 18 U.S.C. §1924 are absent in this instance.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
135. Excerpts from a CRS study of classified information case law shows Espionage Act prosecutions:
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:25 PM
Aug 2015

Congressional Research Service, Criminal Prohibitions on the Publication of Classified Defense Information, (2013) .pdf

This Congressional Research Service study contains an in-dept review of Sec. 793 and related Espionage Act cases, but contains only a brief reference to case law under the lesser charge of 18 U.S.C. §1924. Perhaps, you can fill us in on 1924 cases. One would imagine, as in several of the cases discussed, that any actual prosecution would involve §1924, at least as a lesser, included offense to which the defendant might plead down.

John Kiriakou, Indicted under Espionage Act, 763(e), plead to lesser charge. (Source, [Congressional Research Service, Criminal Prohibitions on the Publication of Classified Defense Information, (2013)] .pdf

1) A former CIA officer, John Kiriakou, was charged for the unauthorized disclosure of classified
information to a journalist. Because the disclosures were alleged to have included the identities of
covert CIA employees, he was also charged under the rarely used Intelligence Identities
Protection Act.56 After the judge rejected his Espionage Act defense based on the lack of intent to
harm the United States or give advantage to a foreign nation
,57 Mr. Kiriakou pleaded guilty to
violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.58

ftn. 57 United States v. Kiriakou, 2012 WL 4903319 (E.D. Va. October 16, 2012) (holding that the scienter requirement for
violating the Espionage Act by disclosing intangible information requires the government to establish only that the
possessor of the information had reason to believe that the information could be used to the injury of the United States
or the advantage of any foreign nation).


68 The government must demonstrate that disclosure of a document is at least “potentially damaging” to the United
States or advantageous to a foreign government. See United States v. Morison, 844 F.2d 1057, 1072 (4th Cir.), cert.
denied, 488 U.S. (1988)(upholding conviction under 18 U.S.C. §793 for delivery of classified photographs to
publisher). Whether the information is “related to the national defense” under this meaning is a question of fact for the
jury to decide. Id. at 1073.At least one judge has held that in the case of a disclosure of intangible information, the
government needs to prove only that the defendant has reason to believe that such information is potentially damaging,
which, in the case of a person with access to classified information, can largely be inferred from the fact that
information is classified. See United States v. Kiriakou,
2012 WL 4903319 at *1 (E.D. Va. October 16, 2012) (scienter
requirement heightened in the case of disclosure of intangible national defense information); id. at *3 (noting that
defendant was a “government employee trained in the classification system who could appreciate the significance of
the information he allegedly disclosed”).


69 See Gorin v. United States, 312, U.S. 9, 27-28 (1941) (“Where there is no occasion for secrecy, as with reports
relating to national defense, published by authority of Congress or the military departments, there can, of course, in all
likelihood be no reasonable intent to give an advantage to a foreign government.”). While Gorin dealt with a violation
that required reason to believe materials obtained or transmitted were to be used to harm the United States or benefit a
foreign nation, it seems likely that the public nature of information would also negate a reason to believe that its
disclosure could harm U.S. national security for the purposes of 18 U.S.C. §793(d-e).

Most recently, Edward Snowden, a former contractor employee working as a computer system
administrator at an NSA facility in Hawaii, was charged in connection with leaking top secret
documents related to certain NSA programs to the Guardian (UK) and the Washington Post.59 He
permitted the newspapers to publish his name, but fled to Hong Kong before he could be takeninto custody. He is reportedly seeking asylum in Ecuador.60 The criminal complaint against him
charges two violations of the Espionage Act
and theft of government property.61
. . .

Application of the Espionage Act to persons who do not hold a position of trust with the
government
, outside of the classic espionage scenario (in which an agent of a foreign government
delivers damaging information to such hostile government), has been controversial. The only
known case of that type involved two pro-Israel lobbyists in Washington, Steven J. Rosen and
Keith Weissman, associated with the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), who
were indicted in 2005 for conspiracy to disclose national security secrets to unauthorized
individuals, including Israeli officials, other AIPAC personnel, and a reporter for the Washington
Post.109 Their part in the conspiracy amounted to receiving information from government
employees with knowledge that the employees were not authorized to disclose it.110 The
prosecution was criticized for effectively “criminalizing the exchange of information,”111 based in
part on the government’s theory that the defendants were guilty of solicitation of classified
information because they inquired into matters they knew their government informant was not
permitted to discuss, something that many journalists consider to be an ordinary part of their
job.112 Charges were eventually dropped, reportedly due to a judge’s ruling regarding the
government’s burden of proving the requisite intent and concerns that classified information
would have to be disclosed at trial.113 With respect to the intent requirement, the judge interpreted
the term “willfully” in connection with the phrase “reason to believe could be used to the injury
of the United States” to require that the prosecution must prove that the defendant disclosed the
information “with a bad faith purpose to either harm the United States or to aid a foreign
government.”114 Later courts confronting the intent issue have differentiated this case to conclude
that the “reason to believe” standard does not require an intent to do harm.115


Ftns. 109 See United States v. Rosen, 445 F. Supp. 2d 602 (E.D. Va. 2006); Jerry Markon, U.S. Drops Case Against Ex-
Lobbyists, WASH. POST, May 2, 2009, at A1 (stating the case is the first prosecution under the Espionage Act against
civilians not employed by the government).
110 See William E. Lee, Deep Background: Journalists, Sources, and the Perils of Leaking, 57 AM. U. L. REV. 1453,
1519 (2007) (opining that “the conspiracy charge especially threatens reporter-source transactions where the reporter
promises not to disclose the identity of the source”).
111 Time to Call It Quits, WASH. POST, March 11, 2009 (editorial urging Attorney General to drop charges).
112 See William E. Lee, Probing Secrets: The Press and Inchoate Liability for Newsgathering Crimes, 36 AM. J. CRIM.
L. 129, 132-34 (2009). The solicitation theory relied on a 2008 Supreme Court case finding that solicitation of an
illegal transaction is not speech deserving of First Amendment protection. United States v. Williams, 553 U.S. 285
(2008). See id. at 133 (citing Brief of the United States at 43-44, United States v. Rosen, 557 F.3d 192 (4th Cir. 2008)
(No. 08-4358)). Williams had to do with solicitation of child pornography, but Justice Scalia posed as a rhetorical
question whether Congress could criminalize solicitation of information thought to be covered by the Espionage Act:
“Is Congress prohibited from punishing those who attempt to acquire what they believe to be national-security
documents, but which are actually fakes? To ask is to answer.” Williams at 304.
113 See Markon, supra footnote 109 (quoting Dana J. Boente, the acting U.S. attorney in Alexandria, VA, where the
trial was scheduled to take place). The judge found the scienter requirement of 18 U.S.C. §793 to require that the
defendants must have reason to believe the communication of the information at issue “could be used to the injury of
the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.” 445 F. Supp. 2d at 639. Moreover, the judge limited the
definition of “information related to the national defense” to information that is “potentially damaging to the United
States or ... useful to an enemy of the United States.” Id. (citing United States v. Morison, 844 F.2d 1057, 1084 (4th Cir.
1988) (Wilkinson, J., concurring)).
114 United States v. Rosen, 445 F. Supp. 2d 602, 625 (E.D. Va. 2006).
115 See United States v. Drake, 818 F. Supp. 2d 909, 916 (D. Md. 2011) (distinguishing intent requirements between
disclosures involving tangible documents and those involving intangible information); United States v. Kiriakou, 2012
WL 4903319 at *3-5 (E.D. Va. October 16, 2012) (surveying case law and noting that 4th Cir. interlocutory appeal in
the Rosen case cast doubt on the district judge’s interpretation).


151 See, e.g., United States v. Morison, 844 F.2d 1057, 1086 (4th Cir. 1988) (Phillips, J., concurring) (“… I assume we
reaffirm today, that notwithstanding information may have been classified, the government must still be required to
prove that it was in fact ‘potentially damaging ... or useful,’ i.e., that the fact of classification is merely probative, not
conclusive, on that issue, though it must be conclusive on the question of authority to possess or receive the
information. This must be so to avoid converting the Espionage Act into the simple Government Secrets Act which
Congress has refused to enact.”) (emphasis in original).
152 See, e.g., Scarbeck v. United States, 317 F.2d 546 (D.C. Cir. 1962) (holding government did not have to show
documents were properly classified “as affecting the national defense” to convict employee under 50 U.S.C. §783,
which prohibits government employees from transmitting classified documents to foreign agents or entities).


Other Statutes
18 U.S.C. Section 1030(a)(1) punishes the willful retention, communication, or transmission, etc.,
of classified information retrieved by means of knowingly accessing a computer without (or in
excess of) authorization, with reason to believe that such information “could be used to the injury
of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation.”

. . .

18 U.S.C. Section 641 punishes the theft or conversion of government property or records for
one’s own use or the use of another. While this section does not explicitly prohibit disclosure of
classified information, it has been used to prosecute “leakers.”87 Violators may be fined,
imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, unless the value of the property does not exceed
the sum of $100, in which case the maximum prison term is one year. The statute also covers
knowing receipt or retention of stolen or converted property with the intent to convert it to the
recipient’s own use. It does not appear to have been used to prosecute any recipients of classified
information even where the original discloser was charged under the statute.


A former National Security Agency (NSA) official,
Thomas A. Drake, recently agreed to plead guilty to exceeding authorized use of a government
computer in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 1030(a)(2)(B) (a misdemeanor), after the government
dropped more serious charges under the Espionage Act, among other offenses.40

A guilty plea was also secured in a case against an FBI contract linguist accused of providing
secret documents to a blogger.44 The defendant, Shamai Kedem Leibowitz, was sentenced to 20
months in prison for violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 798 by passing five documents classified at
the “secret” level in relation to communications intelligence.45

Sec. 1924

18 U.S.C. Section 1924 prohibits the unauthorized removal of classified material by government
employees, contractors, and consultants who come into possession of the material by virtue of
their employment by the government.91 The provision imposes a fine of up to $1,000 and a prison
term up to one year for offenders who knowingly remove material classified pursuant to
government regulations concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States,
with the intent of retaining the materials at an unauthorized location.92

The removal of classified material concerning foreign relations with
the intent to store them at an unauthorized location is a misdemeanor under 18 U.S.C. Section
1924, which also applies only to U.S. government employees.


50 U.S.C. Section 783 penalizes government officers or employees who, without proper authority,
communicate classified information to a person whom the employee has reason to suspect is an
agent or representative of a foreign government.94 It is also unlawful for the representative or
agent of the foreign government to receive classified information.95 Violation of either of these
provisions is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than 10 years.96
Violators are thereafter prohibited from holding federal public office.97 Violators must forfeit all
property derived directly or indirectly from the offense and any property that was used or
intended to be used to facilitate the violation.98

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
137. Do we have evidence of this in the
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:40 PM
Aug 2015

Do we have evidence of this in the current instance with Secretary Clinton:


1) A former CIA officer, John Kiriakou, was charged for the unauthorized disclosure of classified
information to a journalist.
Because the disclosures were alleged to have included the identities of
covert CIA employees, he was also charged under the rarely used Intelligence Identities
Protection Act.56 After the judge rejected his Espionage Act defense based on the lack of intent to
harm the United States or give advantage to a foreign nation,57 Mr. Kiriakou pleaded guilty to
violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.58






They were prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. §1924 and not the Espionage Act. The former is a misdemeanor which will get you a slap on the wrist and a public shaming, the latter will get you time in the hoosegow, and that's why the latter has only been used on spies, traitors, subversives, and deliberate leakers.

-DemocratSinceBirth


BOOM

Thank you for confirming my argument. In lieu of saying you are welcome for the lesson in the law I gave you I would ask that if you make a small donation to the charity of my choice:


http://sabancommunityclinic.org/support-us/ways-to-give




leveymg

(36,418 posts)
138. The Judge held that 793(e) would apply, so Kiriakou plead down. How does that prove your argument?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:49 PM
Aug 2015

I really don't get what you're driving at there. You also didn't seem to have time to read the whole extract before you responded.
So, you might have missed the little gem at the bottom about the case that held that the material doesn't even have to be properly classified to uphold a conviction. What do you think of that?

You have helped to clarify my understanding by pushing me to read further, and I thank you for that. But, I still believe that 18 USC 793 (e) and (f) best fits the circumstances.

I will come back later.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
139. What part of ...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:16 PM
Aug 2015

What part of the fact that the defendant was charged with a violation of the Espionage Act because he deliberately leaked classified information to a journalist don't you understand?

I specifically said, ad nauseum and ad infinitum, the legislative intent and history of the law was to punish spies, subversives, traitors, and leakers.

The defendant's argument that because he didn't intend to harm the U S he didn't violate the Espionage Act was found to be of no moment. He was prosecuted for deliberately leaking classified information. That is where the violation of the cited statute occurred. That is where mens rea attached.

According to the statute it is of no moment to whom the defendant deliberately leaked classified information, only that he or she did.

To be prosecuted under the law, a person would have to knowingly transmit classified information to a person without clearance . Or in the alternative a person would have to unwittingly transmit classified information to a person without clearance, by being a total dumb ass, i.e. grossly negligent .







ToxMarz

(2,168 posts)
43. She's also not a serial killer
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:03 PM
Aug 2015

Well bless her heart. How low is the bar set these days?

She's also not a pedophile. Well bless her heart. How low is the bar set these days?

George II

(67,782 posts)
66. Since it's been proven over and over again that in regard to the email "scandal", she didn't....
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:08 PM
Aug 2015

....violate any laws or Presidential orders, I not only think but also KNOW she's not a felon.

I think it's time that DEMOCRATS stop trying to cast doubt on this and tearing her down. There are plenty of republicans out there perfectly willing to do that.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
12. It's actually worse than most Republicans, who stop short of calling her a felon.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:48 PM
Aug 2015

The felony accusation (which (predictably) got tons of recs) puts us in Alex Jones territory.

riversedge

(70,239 posts)
29. I read that
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:32 PM
Aug 2015

felony thread was alert on but it was allowed to stand. Beyond the pale at DU would allow such lies.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
57. Not quite.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:29 PM
Aug 2015

We have DU'ers who actually promote Republicans voting in the Dem primaries and determining our candidate.

That's disgraceful and ought to be grounds for banning.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
18. I have read extensively on du that she's more liberal than Sanders
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:04 PM
Aug 2015

So why would the "far left" as a group believe she's a felon?

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
24. The Reality of the Democratic Party
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:16 PM
Aug 2015

was, once upon a time, Hubert Humphrey, Jack, Bob and Ted Kennedy, LBJ. FDR, Harry Truman and Paul Wellstone. Politicians who stood up for ALL the people. Bernie says nothing that any of them would not have proudly said. THAT is my kind of Democrat.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
26. That's great. I like both Hillary and Bernie, and would be happy with either as president.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:20 PM
Aug 2015

But unfortunately, some on DU have actually accused her of a felony, hence this OP to set the record straight.

I would much prefer a primary season without right-wing lies and slander against our candidates. How about you? How do you feel about felony accusations against Hillary?

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
25. in what way?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:18 PM
Aug 2015

And where are these duers who say she's a felon? And how do you know they're far left? In fact, what makes a person far left? One generally hears that term only from hate radio, Fox news, and Clinton supporters. Give us your definition.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
36. Because "far left" is a pejorative used disingenuously by political hacks
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:49 PM
Aug 2015

to discredit information they don't want people to pay attention to.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
19. Never said or even hinted she was but she was pretty far afield from best practices and not in
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:10 PM
Aug 2015

reasonable compliance with efforts to increase transparency and accountability for officials being sought by the administration she was a part of and instead we get pretense of nothing and doing the right thing which is bullshit topped with the wack ass excuse that Powell and Rice did similar things as if those turds are models to emulate rather than the exact kind of shenanigans we were trying to clean up in Washington.

You don't have to be a felon or even engaging in illegal activity to be doing something wrong headed, unwise, and counter to the spirit of reforms actively being put in place.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
23. I wasn't talking about you personally, but the allegation has been made on DU (and highly recced).
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:15 PM
Aug 2015

Like I said, it's embarrassing to have to respond to stuff like this on a supposedly Democratic forum.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
141. Sure, I didn't gather you were exclusively speaking to that
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 11:31 PM
Aug 2015

In any event, I think the wagon circling to the point of open mockery and disdain for seemingly the very concepts of accountability and transparency some to the insane to me point of eagerly supporting public officials being their own information gatekeeper to parse out to us what they deem fit.

Thinking of that sort on the issue is short sighted at best. That is losing the forest for a tree. No, it wasn't a felony or even out of line with her predecessors it was a blatant example of exactly the kind of opportunity for unsavory business to be generous whether one politician or another takes the easy advantage of it for nefarious purposes or not.

The whole blowing it off is at least twice as bad and ten times as dangerous as felony talk.

I cannot believe the model of government people will endorse and support.

riversedge

(70,239 posts)
30. Cnn-->Scrutiny over Clinton email raises questions of over-classification
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:36 PM
Aug 2015

new article fits in with your OP



http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/28/politics/hillary-clinton-email-classified/index.html


Scrutiny over Clinton email raises questions of over-classification


By Laura Koran and Elise Labott, CNN

Updated 4:00 PM ET, Fri August 28, 2015 | Video Source: CNN

Story highlights

Members of Clinton's campaign are hitting back on the notion she violated regulation governing the transmission of classified information
Clinton's allies point to an email forwarded by top aide Huma Abedin that is now at the center of the intelligence community's review of Clinton's emails

(CNN)The debate over Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server has shifted in recent days to focus on larger issues with how the government determines what is and isn't classified.

Under that system, the same set of facts can be considered classified in one agency and unclassified in another, depending on their source. Similarly, open source information can be kept classified by the U.S. government for years after it's made public in news reports or leaks....................

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
37. There is no doubt that over-classification is a huge problem.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:51 PM
Aug 2015

Bush was bad in this regard, and Obama has been even worse. It's part and parcel of Obama's effort to harass, prosecute and punish whistle blowers acting in the best interests of the U.S. public (but not the oligarchy, hence the effort to criminalize whistle-blowing and investigative journalism).

But, for the moment, the issue of over-classification is moot for the purposes of determining Hillary's exposure to legal consequences. She may well be able to make the point in court, but as it stands a number of her email messages are considered to contain classified information.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
31. The FBI will be the final arbiter of that.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:38 PM
Aug 2015

Hillary is no victim. She brought on this headache herself.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
35. The FBI has already said SHE is not a target, which has a specific meaning
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:48 PM
Aug 2015

that you apparently don't understand.

They are concerned about something someone else may have done, but not Hillary.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
38. That's a political response and does not exonerate her in any way, shape, or form.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:54 PM
Aug 2015

One thing she did that may stick is knowingly (she admitted having received the training) sending and receiving highly classified data (e.g., satellite intelligence, etc.) over an unsecured server to/from Sid Blumenthal who does not work in the government (he's paid by the Clinton Foundation) and has no security clearance. And the piece de resistance is that Blumenthal's email was hacked by a Romanian hacker.

That's just one issue for her and it's a doozy.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
42. You mean besides common sense?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:02 PM
Aug 2015

She has plenty to answer for and brought it on herself.

Democrats are entitled to have a nominee free of this bullshit. What happens if it blows up in the general?

I'm certainly those mired in the cult of personality aren't capable of seeing this clearly, but the writing is on the wall.

riversedge

(70,239 posts)
67. Well, I have no writing on my wall. No matter
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:14 PM
Aug 2015

who the nominee turns out to be--the Republicans will invent crap about them. And hate radio--fox and fox wanna-be's will toss it out over and over until it becomes the truth. You know that and I know that.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
44. In the opinion of AtomicKitten on DU. The truth is the FBI is not targeting her.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:04 PM
Aug 2015

And there is no evidence that she sent any classified data to anyone except on classified State Department lines.

And from the reports, that Romanian hacker might have gotten into the .gov emails. Hundreds of other State Department .gov emails were hacked.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
45. There is plenty of info you are ignoring while mired in the culture of personality.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:06 PM
Aug 2015

You are entitled to cultivate ignorance if it makes you feel better.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
46. Where are your links? The NYTimes has had to walk back story after story after story.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:07 PM
Aug 2015

And so have other outlets following in its wake.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
47. All they are guilty of is jumping the gun on the story.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:09 PM
Aug 2015

Reuters has been doing some impressive investigative journalism on this matter.

Educate yourself or ignore the facts that are unfolding, your choice.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
72. You made the empty claim against HRC. Unless you can post something specific for me to respond to,
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:43 PM
Aug 2015

you are just bloviating.

As usual.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
91. You can't disprove a puff of air.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:09 PM
Aug 2015

That's all you've given me so far. Hot air.

The reason you won't give specific links is because they could be answered with specifics.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
62. You will be waiting a long time...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:45 PM
Aug 2015

You will be waiting a long time... But your interlocutor has no compunction about channeling her inner Don Rickles.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
75. vous êtes une personne idiote
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:13 PM
Aug 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=128959

About DemocratSinceBirth

Statistics and Information

Account status: Active
Member since: Sat Jul 12, 2003, 09:35 AM
Number of posts: 57,299
Number of posts, last 90 days: 3918
Favorite forum: General Discussion: Primaries, 1949 posts in the last 90 days (50% of total posts)
Favorite group: African American, 197 posts in the last 90 days (5% of total posts)
Last post: Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:00 PM

Jury
Willing to serve on Juries: Yes
Eligible to serve on Juries: Yes
Chance of serving on Juries: 60% (explain)

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
79. Sticks and stones might break my bones...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:24 PM
Aug 2015
vous êtes une personne idiote



Sticks and stones might break my bones but epithets from anonymous posters will never harm me. Keep em coming, I never had a piñata at any of my birthday parties and you are as close to one as I will ever get.
 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
82. Your schtick is so '08,
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:43 PM
Aug 2015

... tone deaf and pointless, defending the indefensible, incapable of a civilized conversation, and wondering why you fail at mustering support. It's '08 redux.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
87. She has lots of support...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:49 PM
Aug 2015

She has lots of support but unlike the denizens of this board I usually eschew the company of upper middle class intellectuals or those that fancy themselves as such and actually enjoy the company of the hoi polloi and that informs my world view. Actually I find the former group to be utterly boring and paternalistic, certainly not the people I could stomach in more than anything but small doses.

And if you think the independent senator from Vermont is a proxy for Barack Obama I'm Phil Heath.


DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
122. Yeah, calling a fellow DU member a "fascist" qualifies as name calling...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:49 PM
Aug 2015

Yeah, calling a fellow DU member a "fascist" qualifies as name calling, even if done under the cloak of anonymity.


leveymg

(36,418 posts)
116. CNN and Reuters: Inspector Generals concluded Clinton emails presumed classified
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:39 AM
Aug 2015

The origin of the "presumed classified" determination applied to many of Hillary Clinton's emails are the Inspectors General of the Intelligence Community and the State Department, as reported by CNN. That assessment is shared by the former Director of the Government's Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO), as reported by Reuters.

CNN: 7/24/2015

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/politics/hillary-clinton-email-justice-department/
Official: Clinton emails included classified information

Washington (CNN)The inspector general for the intelligence community has informed members of Congress that some material Hillary Clinton emailed from her private server contained classified information, but it was not identified that way. Because it was not identified, it is unclear whether Clinton realized she was potentially compromising classified information.

The IG reviewed a "limited sampling" of her emails and among those 40 reviewed found that "four contained classified [intelligence community] information," wrote the IG Charles McCullough in a letter to Congress. McCullough noted that "none of the emails we reviewed had classification or dissemination markings" but that some "should have been handled as classified, appropriately marked, and transmitted via a secure network."

The four emails in question "were classified when they were sent and are classified now,"
spokeswoman Andrea Williams told CNN.

McCullough said that State Department Freedom of Information Act officials told the intelligence community IG that "there are potentially hundreds of classified emails within the approximately 30,000 provided by former Secretary Clinton."


CNN 8/17/15

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/17/politics/hillary-clinton-server-referred-for-further-review/
Washington (CNN)Intelligence officials assigned to review emails from Hillary Clinton's server for classified information have so far recommended that 305 documents be referred to agencies for further consultation, according to a report filed with a federal judge Monday.

In court papers filed with U.S. District Court Judge Rudolph Contreras, the State Department updated its progress. It said that as of last Friday, Intelligence Community reviewers had completed a preliminary screening and determined that "out of a sample of approximately 20% of the Clinton emails," the reviewers have "recommended 305 documents -- approximately 5.1% -- for referral to their agencies for consultation."
. . .

inspectors general for the State Department and for the Intelligence Community raised concerns about the content of the emails, the State Department added intelligence staff to assist in the process.


Reuters 8/24/15

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/us-usa-election-clinton-emails-idUSKCN0QQ0BW20150821
Exclusive: Dozens of Clinton emails were classified from the start, U.S. rules suggest


In the small fraction of emails made public so far, Reuters has found at least 30 email threads from 2009, representing scores of individual emails, that include what the State Department's own "Classified" stamps now identify as so-called 'foreign government information.' The U.S. government defines this as any information, written or spoken, provided in confidence to U.S. officials by their foreign counterparts.

This sort of information, which the department says Clinton both sent and received in her emails, is the only kind that must be "presumed" classified, in part to protect national security and the integrity of diplomatic interactions, according to U.S. regulations examined by Reuters.

"It's born classified," said J. William Leonard, a former director of the U.S. government's Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO). Leonard was director of ISOO, part of the White House's National Archives and Records Administration, from 2002 until 2008, and worked for both the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations.

"If a foreign minister just told the secretary of state something in confidence, by U.S. rules that is classified at the moment it's in U.S. channels and U.S. possession," he said in a telephone interview, adding that for the State Department to say otherwise was "blowing smoke."



The opinion of the OP is not shared by these officials and experts charged with classification matters.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
118. Thank you. None of these links prove that the now supposedly classified information
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:20 PM
Aug 2015

was classified at the time of origin.

The fact that one agency believes it should be classified now is disputed by another agency.

The issue is retroactive classification and when it is necessary; and also that classifying information is a subjective, over-used process. The State Department doesn't agree that the emails in question needed to be classified -- no matter how some, including you, interpret the law. The State Department has a different interpretation -- which proves, at the very least, that your interpretation isn't the only one.

The classified stamps referred to in the Reuters report, for example, are new classified stamps -- not stamps on the emails when they were sent or received. And the report also says this: (It's in the first 2 paragraphs but you conveniently decided not to share it)

For months, the U.S. State Department has stood behind its former boss Hillary Clinton as she has repeatedly said she did not send or receive classified information on her unsecured, private email account, a practice the government forbids.

While the department is now stamping a few dozen of the publicly released emails as "Classified," it stresses this is not evidence of rule-breaking. Those stamps are new, it says, and do not mean the information was classified when Clinton, the Democratic frontrunner in the 2016 presidential election, first sent or received it.




leveymg

(36,418 posts)
120. UR missing a link Besides, interpretation of presumed classified law and EO aren't DOS jurisdiction
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:45 PM
Aug 2015

The agencies interpret violations of security rules for internal Departmental disciplinary hearings, which are civil, while a decision whether a federal law has been broken and should be criminally prosecuted is left to the US Attorney. Security clearance revocations are carried out by a federal board. It is ultimately the courts that decide whether a crime has been committed. You seem to be attributing powers to decide matters of law, based upon a State spokesman's comments, that the Department lacks.

The State Department cannot exonerate HRC for any violations of federal law.

The statute in question refers to "injury to the United States" here:

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

. . .

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense,
(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or
(2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.


While, the relevant EO states with regard to "presumed classified information":

Executive Order 13526 - Classified National Security Information

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
December 29, 2009
Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information

This order prescribes a uniform system for classifying, safeguarding, and declassifying national security information, including information relating to defense against transnational terrorism.

. . .

(4) the original classification authority determines that the unauthorized disclosure of the information reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security, which includes defense against transnational terrorism, and the original classification authority is able to identify or describe the damage.

(b) If there is significant doubt about the need to classify information, it shall not be classified. This provision does not:

(1) amplify or modify the substantive criteria or procedures for classification; or

(2) create any substantive or procedural rights subject to judicial review.

(c) Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information.

(d) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.



pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
123. LOL. The link was the Reuters link YOU provided. Somehow you skipped
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:51 PM
Aug 2015

the first two paragraphs.

And the State Department isn't the only department that says the emails shouldn't be retroactively classified.

So does Tom Blanton, the Executive Director of the National Security Archives, who has said that up to 3/4 of documents he sees marked classified never needed that classification.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/hillary-clinton-fights-back-on-classified-documents-121532

National Security Archive Executive Director Tom Blanton said Wednesday that the withholding of information already formally published by the government — as occurred with the transcript sent to his group — underscores the unpredictable nature of the classified information process.

“This is the very definition of arbitrary and capricious,” Blanton said in an interview. “That’s the deep problem with the classification system, everybody who leaves the system looks back and says, ‘Wow, more than half, maybe three-quarters, of what I saw marked classified didn’t deserve to be but people on the inside are busy using their enforcement authority to keep people in line.”

The State Department has classified about 60 of Clinton’s emails prior to release under the Freedom of Information Act. Intelligence agencies have said at least four more should be classified, two of them at the ‘TOP SECRET” level. However, State officials have said they dispute that claim and have submitted the issue for review by the director of National Intelligence.


leveymg

(36,418 posts)
124. Again, the State Dept has not determined whether laws have been violated. That is a fallacy
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:22 PM
Aug 2015

There seems to be a misinformation going around as a result of a NewsBin piece that someone reposted here:

The State Department publicly confirmed today that Hillary Clinton’s use of personal email while serving as Secretary of State violated no laws or policies that were in place at the time, bringing an end to the substantive side of the “email scandal” if certainly not the political side. Clinton’s opponents in the 2016 election and their followers have been hoping the issue would force her out of the election, but now they’ll be reduced to simply trying to create a scandal where none exists, after the department’s official words today.

State Department official spokesperson John Kirby appeared live on CNN today and flat out stated that “she was not violating policy.” Like many other high ranking officials who came before and during her tenure, Hillary Clinton opted to bypass the wonky email servers provided by the department due to the fact that they couldn’t, for instance, properly work with mobile email apps on smartphones. Previous Secretaries of State Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice have acknowledged having done the same.

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/state-department-confirms-hillary-clinton-email-violated-no-laws-or-policies/21851/


Mr. Kirby did state there was a determination about violation of policy, but did not and could not accurately state anything about violation of federal law. That's an issue for Department of Justice to decide to prosecute or not and ultimately for the courts to decide or perhaps the President to issue a pardon, as occurred with CIA Director Deutch under similar circumstances.

As for Tom Blanton, the National Security Archives are not a governmental agency, and while agree with him about the arbitrary nature of overclassification (and would like to see the 1917 Espionage Act revised) that is merely his private opinion.

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
125. Yes, it's a fallacy that you yourself promoted when YOU claimed she'd committed a felony.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:26 PM
Aug 2015

NO ONE has determined that any laws have been violated.

And Tom Blanton is not the only one who thinks that the classification system is greatly overused:

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20150803-tom-blanton-classified-fact--keeping-us-in-the-dark-doesnt-make-us-safer.ece

"I showed Congress the estimates over the years of how much gets classified that doesn’t deserve to be. Ronald Reagan’s executive secretary for the National Security Council, Rodney McDaniel, said 90 percent. Thomas Kean, the Republican head of the 9/11 Commission, said 75 percent of what he saw that was classified should not have been."

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
128. I agree about overclassification and that the law is too broad, but HRC appears to have broken it.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:43 PM
Aug 2015

Like other lesser officials who have been prosecuted in recent years under similar circumstances of placing classified materials on home computers and data devices. She is not above the law, no matter how flawed and draconian that law may be.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
33. Funny, the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:47 PM
Aug 2015

certainly thinks that some of the emails contained classified information:



Should I take his word for it, or yours?

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
48. That letter was referring to RETROACTIVELY classified information,
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:09 PM
Aug 2015

as was made clear in many other reports. And the State Department is disputing those retroactive classifications.

This is primarily an inter-departmental dispute about what should be classified and what shouldn't be. Hillary's been caught in the middle of it.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
126. The letter is referring to "presumed classified information" that was found in Hillary's email.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:37 PM
Aug 2015

The doctrine that foreign government information, as contained in HRC's communications shared on her unsecured system, is presumed classified information is found in Executive Order 13529:


(d) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.


The Inspector Generals of the Department of State and of the Intelligence Community have both referred this to the Department of Justice for investigation. This is now a matter for the US Attorney to decide whether prosecution is warranted.

If Hillary's caught in the middle of it, it's because she chose to send official communications over an insecure private system.




leveymg

(36,418 posts)
129. Presumed means by its nature classified at the moment of creation.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:48 PM
Aug 2015

The next step of this matter will be decided by the Attorney General. You should be prepared for the possibility that she is prosecuted.

jalan48

(13,869 posts)
34. I don't think of Hillary as a felon. Rather, someone who exercised poor judgement on a big decision.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:48 PM
Aug 2015
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
41. I tend to agree - I don't see a felony in all this, and I don't expect she will be charged.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:01 PM
Aug 2015

In actuality, the government is showing Hillary extreme deference in this matter. In cases with similar issues in play, indictments were swiftly sought and harsh punishments pursued - when the perpetrator was some low-level functionary and not Secretary of State:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/08/12/hillary-clinton-sanctity-protecting-classified-information/

When it comes to low-level government employees with no power, the Obama administration has purposely prosecuted them as harshly as possible to the point of vindictiveness: It has notoriously prosecuted more individuals under the Espionage Act of 1917 for improperly handling classified information than all previous administrations combined.

NSA whistleblower Tom Drake, for instance, faced years in prison, and ultimately had his career destroyed, based on the Obama DOJ’s claims that he “mishandled” classified information (it included information that was not formally classified at the time but was retroactively decreed to be such). Less than two weeks ago, “a Naval reservist was convicted and sentenced for mishandling classified military materials” despite no “evidence he intended to distribute them.” Last year, a Naval officer was convicted of mishandling classified information also in the absence of any intent to distribute it.

In the light of these new Clinton revelations, the very same people who spent years justifying this obsessive assault are now scampering for reasons why a huge exception should be made for the Democratic Party front-runner. Fascinatingly, one of the most vocal defenders of this Obama DOJ record of persecution has been Hillary Clinton herself.


Drake has since plead to a misdemeanor (a huge win from his perspective) and his case has been dropped.

All along, I have maintained that responsibility for this issue lies equally with the Obama Administration for allowing Clinton to manage her communications from a private server. I see the hypocrisy of the Administration with respect to how they have pursued others (such as Drake) vs. how they are handling Hillary.

The bottom line is that the Obama Administration allows high-ranking officials to scoff at information security protocols, but seeks out and penalizes low-level leakers and whistle blowers with a McCarthy-like fervor.
 

Indepatriot

(1,253 posts)
51. That's a winning tag line if I've ever heard one!
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:16 PM
Aug 2015

How about Vote for Hillary:She hates the banksters who fund her!

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
111. And he is trying to do something to help those subjected to the "F"
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:38 AM
Aug 2015

scarlet letter too, unlike some other candidates that helped subject so may to it.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
50. Thanks for the clarification. So many of us were confused by her running as a felon.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:15 PM
Aug 2015


Of course, that is far different than saying she hasn't committed any felonies, isn't it?

I am glad she isn't one because we hav far too many in this country as it. Hillary helped ensure that, did she not? I guess it helps to decrease the competition a bit.

Cha

(297,271 posts)
101. Actually, it's in response to a silly Op calling her a Felon. And, I'm glad the OP layed this out.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:07 AM
Aug 2015

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
104. It may have been a silly OP but it didn't call her a felon.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:23 AM
Aug 2015

It said she was guilty of committing a felony. May seem a small difference but I assure you that the millions of felons in the country are well aware of them.

Of course, being a felon (a ridiculous label, if you ask me) and being guilty of committing a serious or 'felonious' crime are completely different matters.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
107. Actually, and you know it as well as I, in the USA at least, a person
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:14 AM
Aug 2015

is not considered a 'felon' unless proven guilty (or at least convicted). I don't need any of your references to know the truth,. I live here.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
108. The term for that is "convicted felon". As the person who wrote the OP, I can assure you that
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:16 AM
Aug 2015

when I said "Hillary is not a felon" what I meant was "Hillary has not committed a felony," using to the dictionary definition of the word "felon". And this was in response to that preposterous OP claiming that she had committed a felony.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
109. You are mistaken. If that were true, surely most of the people in the country, probably including
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:32 AM
Aug 2015

Hillary, are 'felons'.

I am well aware of what is what in response to and did not appreciate that post but yours was also false.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
114. Are you sure? Lots of laws out there you know.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:07 AM
Aug 2015

And by your definition, I am pretty sure I would be one. I am equally sure that you probably would be too but just can't accept the fact.

How about misdemeanors? Ever broken one of those laws and not been caught? Bo?

How about just plain moral laws?

Or shuold we all believe you are one of the few perfect people that have never had a transgression in your life?

George II

(67,782 posts)
56. Excellent post. I called out someone earlier today for saying Clinton is a felon:
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:28 PM
Aug 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=553362

I have yet to see a response.

No wonder Sanders isn't going to go on the attack against her, he knows the attacks will be taken care of anyway.

Mugweed

(949 posts)
65. I'm not a centrist, and I'm tired of centrists.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:03 PM
Aug 2015

Centrists are just trying to please everyone. I live in Florida and have concluded that the majority of everyone is an idiot. Hillary Clinton is not that great a candidate. I'll vote for her if she ends up the lesser of the two evils, but I support Sanders and really think he's this country's only sane choice.

kjones

(1,053 posts)
70. "centrists are just trying to please everyone"
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:26 PM
Aug 2015

Oh yes, lets be sure not to help as many people as possible...
Don't want to help too many people.

"the majority of everyone is an idiot."
Have to cram a dose of holier than thou elitism in there too.

 

adigal

(7,581 posts)
81. He didn't say that Dems shouldn't help people. He implied they try to PLEASE everyone
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:43 PM
Aug 2015

Totally different concept. It was disingenous of you to try to imply otherwise.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
73. LOL. And if I walk out of Target with unpaid-for merchandise, it's not stolen if I had someone
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:45 PM
Aug 2015

remove the price tags first. No price tag = free.

Response to DanTex (Original post)

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
90. Actually ...
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:08 PM
Aug 2015

... what's "telling" is the fact that there is consistently a need to defend Democrats from right-wing-generated talking points - which have no basis is fact, no less reality - on DemocraticUnderground.

And what's "embarrassing" is the fact that you don't even get the irony of that situation.

Unknown Beatle

(2,672 posts)
93. I question everyone that is trying to get elected
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:27 PM
Aug 2015

or is already a politician serving "We the People".

I don't care if it's Hillary, Bernie, or Obama. I will question and criticize their words and actions.

I don't have a problem with Hillary's emails. But I do have a problem with her refusing to answer simple questions. I do have a problem with her voting for the Iraq War Resolution. It's my right to criticize politicians.

If people call me a hater, so be it. I will not sit idly by doing nothing while the country burns and people try to silence me by calling me a hater.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

That goes for all politicians left or right.

PatrickforO

(14,576 posts)
95. This post reminds me of Richard Nixon saying, "I am NOT a crook!"
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:25 AM
Aug 2015

Sad that it is happening, but it was poor judgment.

Cha

(297,271 posts)
98. Actually it has nothing to do with dick nixon.. it's countering a silly OP calling Hillary a Felon..
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:59 AM
Aug 2015

Cha

(297,271 posts)
97. Thank you for laying all this out, Dan. It does help counteract the goPropaganda posted on
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 05:57 AM
Aug 2015

DU.

I don't care that it doesn't change the minds of those who post and rec such silly, mindless dribble. It is noticed by others who read DU and may wonder if they've wandered into a rw site by mistake.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
105. Thanks. I agree it won't change the minds of the mindless, but it's still good to have some
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 07:24 AM
Aug 2015

factual posts around here.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
113. More hyperbole from the lackluster campaign
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:49 AM
Aug 2015

"all of the crazies salivating over the prospect of Hillary being tossed in jail"

This is similar to your other explanation of how the banking industry and the for-profit prison industry are not "technically" bankrolling her campaign.

As far as her being a felon, she has no convictions. Of course she is not a felon, technically.

It's rare for anyone in the 1% to be a felon.

The question is whether she was committing felonies and abusing her power to avoid prosecution. That's another thing entirely...

brooklynite

(94,585 posts)
121. Speaking of hyperbole...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:47 PM
Aug 2015

She's not a felon because "It's rare for anyone in the 1% to be a felon" and "she is not a felon, technically."

Why not tell us what you really think? We won't be offended (or surprised...).

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
132. perhaps you do not know the definition of hyperbole
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:43 PM
Aug 2015

"exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally"

My statements are accurate, whereas the OP's are not.

It's okay. I couldn't care less about the email scandal. I'm more concerned with her votes.

I understand you are invested in Ms. Clinton and are unable to see anything she does as worthy of criticism. She has a great many folks fooled.

Still, folks will awaken eventually.

TBF

(32,062 posts)
115. Thanks for the name-calling
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:17 AM
Aug 2015

that always makes everyone feel better. I hope you've accomplishment whatever it is you set out to do here today.

Hint: if it takes multiple paragraphs to try to convince folks why your candidate doesn't suck, your candidate may not be nearly as wonderful as you think

ismnotwasm

(41,986 posts)
133. I've just been cruising RW sites, in the spirit of "know your enemy"
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:11 PM
Aug 2015

(I'll take a shower in a minute) I just found an article that matched an OP here, almost word for word (it's not even far left, the real far left doesn't hang out at DU much from what I can tell)

I was dismayed, but not shocked in the least

smiley

(1,432 posts)
134. Hillary Clinton is absolutely not a felon!
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:12 PM
Aug 2015

But I still believe Bernie Sanders is a better candidate for the democratic nomination. This doesn't mean I hate Hillary. I simply don't agree with the political decisions she has made.

Go Bernie!

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