Sanders quickly makes changes when challenged b y BLM. Clinton wags her finger. Who's out of step?

[Armstead]

When confronted by BLM, Sanders very quickly responded by expanding his message and making otehr adjustments in his campaign to address concerns they raised. He didn't "correct" or lecture them. One reason he was able to respond like that is because HIS basic agenda has included their agenda for years.

But he's tarred as racially insensitive and a typical "arrogant white progressive" either overtly or by inference. And jeezem, those awful supporters of his, when they get mad about that....

When confronted (much more politely) by BLM, Clinton wagged her finger in their face an gave them a scolding, and "friendly advice."

And yet, crickets.

Makes me scratch my head

[ibegurpard]

1. Oh her performance was masterful doncha know...

Or something...

[forest444]

60. To say nothing of that tea bag plant they sprung on Bernie

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/08/blm-activist-who-shut-down-sanders-is-radical-christian-sarah-palin-supporter/?ref_widget=trending&ref_blog=lovejoyfeminism&ref_post=parenting-without-god

Was Hillary behind it? Were the Rapepublicans? Perhaps a Wall Street PR firm? We may never know - but she was definitely someone's plant.

[U of M Dem]

112. Even if she was an agent provocateur

or some other fancy word meaning she did it for a hidden agenda...

Does it matter?

They have really had to reach for this criticism and it certainly has fallen flat... the ginned up "Bernie supporters are too mean" and "Bernie is not strong enough on racial justice" memes are spoon fed baloney sandwiches and I don't think it matters who is saying it or why.

It will take much more than that to stop the Bernie train.

Bernie bounces back twice as hard by addressing the issues.

What happens when someone gives Bernie honest criticism?

He stops to listen to build understanding and then takes action consistent with the persons concerns. What a representative of the people is supposed to do.

He doesn't give people the business or go through the motions, this man is the real deal ready to represent the interests of the people. His ears are open and listening.

TL;DR = Haters gonna hate.

[MisterP]

121. frankly I think it backfired: FB and Twitter were immediately *deluged* with CSPAN videos on YouTube

of Sanders addressing every point of racism, for decades, and well before he ran for office

they then literally tried to claim that "it doesn't matter that Sanders walked with King" and got even MORE evidence of stuff he did 1968-2015

[forest444]

140. You're absolutely right.

They tried getting Bernie with this half-assed psy-ops ploy - and for once, the voters saw through it. I do fear however that they might have succeeded in driving a wedge between him and African-American voters as a group - and this, if not addressed, will be a problem for Democrats if Bernie is in fact the nominee.

This much I'm sure of: Bernie knows this better than anyone, and is working hard as we speak to counter this thoroughly manufactured image that he's somehow "out of touch" with African-Americans. As U of M Dem pointed out above, no one running right now in either party has had more invested of himself on issues of top concern for African-Americans than Bernie Sanders.

[MisterP]

141. dunno, there's not that big a favorability gap race-wise: it's more that there's a separate

"Black media"--but he's been getting endorsements from the Black left (Cornel West and the outright socialists)

[U of M Dem]

162. This smear attempt was just that... An attempt.

I trust that Bernie will engage with the AA communities on a multitude of levels and meet them with genuine openmindedness. As said before, he already has a huge head start on social justice credentials from his abundant civil rights activism.

[MisterP]

170. maybe it was targeted at Whites?

[eridani]

204. The message was still important, though. And he responded to it. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

2. You just don't get it

Bernie has a race problem (no matter what he does), and Hillary doesn't (no matter what she does). Weird huh?

[Armstead]

3. Head scratchingly weird

better to scratch my had than to

[staggerleem]

237. Oh but ...

... feels SOOOOO good ... when you stop!

[LondonReign2]

9. Well it's true!

Just like it's true that George Bush heroically defended the Texas border (when he could be bothered to show up) against the Vietcong while that faker Kerry volunteered just to make himself look good and totally didn't deserve those Purple Hearts or Silver Stars.

[whatchamacallit]

12. Yep it's like that

The delusion runs deep.

[LondonReign2]

15. Not delusion, IMO

Delusion implies simply not understanding. The sliming of Sanders is a knowingly false character assassination.

[whatchamacallit]

26. I see your point

[passiveporcupine]

68. The most extreme who do it are radiating hatred, not objective (or deliberately false) criticism

I'm not sure they are not delusional. I've always admitted I don't like Hillary, and for reasons like her response to the BLM protestors. She just comes across as a cold person to me (and for her economic and foreign policies). But I don't hate her. I may not like it but I'll vote for her if she wins the primary. I can't imagine anyone voting for someone they literally hate, even if that is what it takes to win the White house. And that is really a shame. People need to stop letting their emotions rule them. You cannot make wise decisions that way, and you end up hurting yourself in the long run.

[senz]

24. After enough abuse, you learn to be careful about trusting "strangers."

Hillary's advantage is that she and her husband are known entities associated with good guys (Democrats), while Bernie is simply an unknown white guy. And so it's only natural to hold off until this new guy comes into clearer focus, which I hope he does soon, because Bernie and his policies are far, far more respectful and fair to poc than any other candidate's. He's their best bet.

I think if Obama were free of party entanglements and corporate pressure, he'd back Bernie. But not everyone can afford to go with their heart/conscience. Simple fact.

[whatchamacallit]

40. +1

[Bubzer]

53. Well, if he's just an unkown white guy, somone forgot to tell those huge masses of rally attendees

[senz]

64. The MSM ignore him. We know about him from online, lefty media, and word of mouth.

TV won't even mention his rallies. His ideas have not been heard yet by the majority of Americans. The average American is just getting an inkling of who this guy is and so far, it's pretty superficial (Vermont socialist, old guy, Jewish, Independent, etc.) People don't know yet what kind of person he is and what he proposes to do.

AA's have trust issues with white people -- for all kinds of really good reasons. So it will take longer for them. But for their sake, I hope they join in.

[Bubzer]

91. I've noticed when members of AA communities discover Bernie's history in marching next to MLK jr...

Bernie's acceptability skyrockets. They find out rather quickly that Bernie is a man of action... and his actions are consistent with his message.

[jwirr]

61. You are probably correct but Bill and Hillary are also well known for the

tough on crime laws that are responsible for the mass incarceration of people of color. So how is that so easily forgotten? One half hearted apology is all it took?

[senz]

71. Not everyone is a political junkie. Most people work off "impressions."

Bill and Hillary are familiar Democrats, kind of like family, "reliable." People who don't have time for politics, as most people don't, don't even think about issues that closely.

[jwirr]

187. But we are talking about black people and other people of color. They

know. Or at least I would assume they would. The people of color in my village understand mass incarceration. There is hardly a family here who has not had someone in prison.

[uponit7771]

226. Bernie voted for some of those same laws... None of these guys can throw a stone

[uponit7771]

225. I don't think Bernie is our best bet... Other than say a bunch of stuff that should be obvious he's

... Not said how he's Going to get past the Republican congress and thirty willingness to be traitors for thirty ideals

[jwirr]

228. She has the same problem with the Rs. Of course she would just triangulate

us into the dumpster to get what she wanted and let me tell you it would not be for most of us. Welfare reform, NAFTA, TPP, repeal Glass-Steagall.

[kelliekat44]

36. HRC was being real with what she can do. BS is saying what they wish he could accomplish.

I confess, I want HRC to win, and I think that given half the chance she would be an awesome President. Bernies says all the right things and I like him but not over HRC. Anyone down for a Clinton/Sanders ticket?

[whatchamacallit]

39. Clinton/Sanders would be the ultimate

political PushMePullYou and a total waste of time.

[senz]

54. Exactly. People need to understand president/vice-president

This reminds me of a time a year or two ago when some Hillary-supporters thought a Hillary/Warren ticket would be just so nice. I tried to explain that Hillary and Elizabeth Warren are ideological opposites, and furthermore, there would no better way to subdue and silence EW than to make her Hillary's VP. These supporters seemed to assume that because they're both Democratic women, they would of course think alike.

[whatchamacallit]

55. Yup

[Ed Suspicious]

41. Not really.

Not even a Sanders/Clinton ticket, but I wouldn't cry too much if she were Bernie's choice as I trust Bernie to do the right thing.

[cascadiance]

49. I think Bernie needs to avoid Third Way running mate if nominated...

... as even though some people might say that would help him doing that in the election to get support, that puts a very big target on his back for assassination the corporate PTB who might rather have his running mate in charge and see that as a means to do so. If he were to have someone like Warren as his running mate, that action would have its risks not worth the effort to do an assassination, as they wouldn't buy themselves more influence with that VP in charge instead of Bernie. That's another reason I don't think Bernie/Clinton wouldn't work, even if it somehow bought him more support to win the election.

And if you don't think that will happen, we have had assassinations in the past where there are theories of powerful entities trying to manipulate the office of the presidency have been behind them, and someone like Bernie, who would break from well over 30 years of domination by corporate beholden presidents, would be a lot more vulnerable than many other recent presidents.

[Ed Suspicious]

52. Isn't it insane that you talk about assassination and I nod my head in agreement. This

is not the America I was told about as a kid.

[senz]

90. Well, some of us remember JFK, RFK, MLK ...

It happens. But you're right, now is worse than then.

[zeemike]

108. Yes we do don't we...

But the positive part is now they are so cock sure of their ability to control things they don't think it is necessary to dirty their hands.
They own and control the media now and most of congress...that was not the case as much way back then.

[senz]

118. Yep. It was tumultous but still "America." Then Reaganomics happened.

The American middle class did not know how good they had it back then. None of us did.

Shows how important elections can be.

[magical thyme]

58. telling them that they must tell her what policies are needed hardly qualifies as

Last edited Mon Aug 24, 2015, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

telling them what she can do.

Her inability to articulate, even in a general way, how she would address systematic, structural discrimination tells me she hasn't really given it a lot of thought. It's not like she hasn't had years, or decades, to think about it.

If she hasn't bothered to think about it in all these years, then I doubt she's even going to try to implement much or any of what they come up with.

OTOH, when it comes to specifics of what policies they want to use the power of the Presidency to implement regarding just one facet -- police violence against POC -- an offshoot group of BLM *has* come up with a list, has met with each Dem candidate, and has even put together a table to see how the leading Dem and Repug candidates measure up based on their current stands on the issues.

While Hillary does twice as well as the GOP, having 2 policies, versus 1 (or none), I'm afraid she doesn't come close to either O'Malley or Sanders.




http://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision=

[wendylaroux]

86. this this this^^^^^

billions of times.

[senz]

133. +1000

[HappyPlace]

164. You inspired me to go to the site and make a better image.

Higher resolution, and includes more candidates if you like!

[beam me up scottie]

169. You should make that into an op. Their list is very detailed.

Well done!

[magical thyme]

180. well done! great job, thank you!

I had started an OP on it yesterday, in case you'd like to add it there here is the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251540029

[Bubzer]

77. I'm pro Bernie, but I'd have to admit a certain ammount of curiosity at a Sanders/Clinton ticket.

There is a bit of trepidation too though. The biggest issues I see brought up on the two candidates is Hillary's trustworthiness, and Bernie's Socialist status. Bernie could bring a lot of trust to that kind of ticket... and Hillary could negate the attempt to use "Socialist" as a slur.

My problem with Hillary, though, tends to be focused on this: She knows how DC politics work... she knows the currency there... she's a bit of an insider trader in that respect. In other words, she knows the system because she's part of the system. Perhaps if she was more visible in agitating for the common citizen rather than a specific group or two, I'd be more trusting. What I do see is all the financial contributions of major corporations, big banks and the energy lobby. For me, that makes it hard to trust her.

[kenfrequed]

83. Are you trying to offend?

Seriously, shortening Bernie Sanders to BS is actually worse than those snide republicans that run around calling our party the "democrat party."

Do you honestly think you are going to win over Sanders supporters when you blurt out that kind of garbage?

[uponit7771]

227. Right!!! Sanders isn't saying how he's going to get past the Republican congress

[jwirr]

229. If Hillary wins I do not want Bernie as her vp. We need his voice in the

Senate if she wins.

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. As Rumsfeld said, they MAKE the news to be reported by their 'noise-machine',

to fit their own agenda; words to that effect. Nothing to do with the truth 'on the ground', so to speak. It affords a better ecological environment for those curious creatures, 'algorithms'.

[Bubzer]

51. I wouldn't call 40+ years of human rights work a problem.

[ieoeja]

117. Like Obama with LGBT in 2008.

Obama goes on The 700 Club. Challenged on LGBT issues he replied, "you're just plain wrong." LGBT DUers howl in outrage that he "gave them legitimacy" by appearing on the show.

Hillary goes on The 700 Club. Challenged on LGBT issues she ... changes the subject. LGBT DUers say it's no big deal since Obama already went there.

[noiretextatique]

190. Yep...that's pretty much it.

Total bullshit.

[Thinkingabout]

4. No, Bernie continued to speak over the BLM and left the stage, he did not

Engage with BLM afterwards as O'Malley did, on to Seattle another scene. Maybe the problem is Bernie does have a problem with minorities and some if the statements made by his supporters did not promote healing.

[Armstead]

6. No maybe Bernie can be grouchy when yelled at

That's a human response. And a whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeee lot different than "having a problem with minorities."

[Thinkingabout]

7. So you think it is ok for Bernie to be grouchy, it is not healing his problem.

[Armstead]

8. Yes it's okay. Not what I would recommend but I'd do the ame thing

And its not like he threw a temper tantrum. He basically said, "I came here to speak. If you don't want to listen, I'm happy to leave."

Not exactly adding to racial divisions.

and in Seattle he was the soul of restraint.

[Thinkingabout]

14. Then perhaps your opinion of Hillary meeting with BLM wasn't handled badly, it might be better to

Allow the BLM and Bernie to drop and not continuously keeping it in the spot light.

[jalan48]

25. Hillary's little, polite, private get together was a hoot. No shouting at her onstage!

[kenfrequed]

95. All you seem to want to do is spin

Why is it that when a candidate like Bernie makes absolutely substantive policy proposals about what he plans to do you just fall back to reposting memetic spin-cycle fluff?

You make yourself completely unreliable when you do things like that.

[Thinkingabout]

104. Since I did not start the op perhaps addressing someone else would be better, the spin would

Serve Bernie if the post did not continue to bring this up, let it sleep.

[MoveIt]

217. You noticed that too eh?

Some people can't resist spinning everything, and if shame worked around here it might be less of an issue.

[Armstead]

126. MY OP was in response to seeing contiinued claims and innuendo along those lines

I' d prefer to see that stupid and totally wring meme go away forever. But it keeps getting resurrected.

And lest you think I'm being thin-skinned, Berni's "socialism" is fair game for debate. That's honest difference of opinion or interpretation. That's a whole lot different than lies.

[senz]

34. Bernie is not "grouchy." Another false meme.

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. I expect they'll call him a 'sore winner man' next.

[Thinkingabout]

127. Winner of what?

[TheFarS1de]

148. The nomination ....

that so many people here have "democratically" given to the presumed chosen heir of the Whitehouse .

Enough of Dynasties .

[Thinkingabout]

174. The DNC nominee will be a Democrat.

[Joe Chi Minh]

215. Yes, all being above board, it seems he has a very fair chance of

being the DNC nominee. I don't mean that Hillary would countenance electoral skullduggery, but others, including Republicans...? Perhaps. Certainly, they have the media in their pocket, which, admittedly is not exactly a novelty. It would be nice if an electoral war-chest didn't decide it - or the Federal Election, corporate power and media bias in their various forms.

[Thinkingabout]

216. I would not count on Bernie winning the nomination,he lacks in some serious matters.

[Armstead]

128. Appealingly grouchy....

C'mon now. He's a little grouchy. That's okay. Necessary in these days, in fact.

(I'm a long time Bernie suopporter since the earl 90's.)

[senz]

136. Well, grouchy sounds ill-tempered & a bit hostile. Bernie's not like that.

I'll grant that he's fully capable of setting someone straight, especially if they're telling lies or trying to get him to compromise his principles (like wanting him to put down Hillary). But that's just stern, not grouchy.

You've known about him longer than I, but I've listened to "Brunch with Bernie" on TH for years and never heard him talk grouchy. His kindness and patience are pretty exceptional, even for a politician.

[Armstead]

139. Well since we bsically both want him to win i won't quibble

[sheshe2]

198. The man is running for President of the United States.

No maybe Bernie can be grouchy when yelled at


That's a human response. And a whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeee lot different than "having a problem with minorities."

Holy shit, he can't handle being"yelled at" by two women? I am terrified now. Gee how will he handle Russia or China or Iran and Iraq? Leader of the free world and he will get grouchy when yelled at by foreign leaders? Dear gawd, you are not doing your candidate any favors with this defense.

[Armstead]

200. I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer

[sheshe2]

201. You just did.

[Armstead]

203. If you wish to take my non answer as an answer, be my guest

I will amplify. Sanders did not respond with a Bill Clinton Sistah Soljah put down, nor a Hillary style lecture.

A grouchy second is not the same as using a political moment to deliberatly put down black activists, or use them to show his "strength"......Nor did Sanders levture the BLM protestors.....And in the second incident he simply stood aside and let those two women have their say.

You are as creating behavior that is totally inaccurate. I am certain -- as he has in almost every time in his life -- respond to world leaderscwith calm determination.

You're welcome to dislike Sanders for whatever reason you choose to concoct. You're also welcome to dislike all of his supporters for whatever reasons you choose to concoct.

Othere are also free to respond to your conctions as concoctions. Thus I chose not to dignify your response.

[whatchamacallit]

11. Absolute bullshit

There was zero interest in a dialog from Bernie's protesters. Right or wrong, they were there to disrupt and shutdown. It's absurd to think there's a valid performance comparison here. Bernie got harassed off stage and Hillary got her ring kissed.

[Thinkingabout]

18. Opinions have already been made in this matter, keeping it in the spot light is not soothing to a

Problem not allowed to be removed from revisiting on almost daily basis. Making Bernie look good does not serve him well on this point.

[whatchamacallit]

22. It's put back in the spotlight by Hillary supporters 24/7

If you really want to "heal it" give it a fucking rest and we won't say a word.

[Thinkingabout]

62. Provide the links

[whatchamacallit]

69. Seriously?

Is it your contention that the majority of the endless OPs about "Bernie's race problem" are posted by Bernie supporters? You have an interesting way of thinkingabout.

[pocoloco]

38. They were asshats! End of story.

Accept it and try to go on!

[senz]

76. Bernie is the best on "this point." The best. And you know it.

He doesn't have to try to look good. He is good. And you know it.

False insinuations are not flattering to the insinuator.

[senz]

73. He stepped back from the mic. He did not leave the stage.

And don't forget, it was not his rally. It was a social security/medicaid rally and he was one of several invited speakers. He stepped back and listened politely.

[whatchamacallit]

82. Thinkingabout

may be referring to the netroots protest. Regardless, it's an unfair comparison of the respective candidate's performances given the difference in circumstances.

[yodermon]

17. Yeah, excuse me for talking while you're interrupting.

And even through the rudeness (and justifiable rudeness, i'm not really arguing that point), Bernie ADJUSTED HIS MESSAGE. In deference / respect to BLM requests, in my view.

#BowDownBernie, will yeah, he did. Even though personally "grouchy" at being interrupted, Professionally and politically he did the right thing. It's called taking the high road.

[Thinkingabout]

20. His problem remains.

[Ed Suspicious]

45. No. Yours does. I watched his speech in whitesville NH today. In that bastion of albino, he spoke

long and passionately about issues of race and policing of minority communities. He's raising the issue in white communities, spreading his message of inclusion. He did it to great applause. You seem to be the one with the problem here, not Bernie.

[LiberalLovinLug]

84. +1

Exactly.

[Thinkingabout]

103. I do not have a problem, if he wants to correct the issues with minorities then he will work on it

Complaining here about the problem is not going fix the relationship.

[ibegurpard]

23. perhaps we should send Secretary Clinton

To lecture more black activists about how they need to "sell" their movement...complete with finger-jabbing.

[senz]

28. UNTRUE. Bernie remained on stage, with his wife, and bowed his head

during the moment of silence.

It's a very bad tactic, Thinkingabout, to sprinkle falsehoods among discussion threads. Eventually it catches up with one.

[noiretextatique]

191. He appointed a BLM activist as his press secretary

And added a racial justice plank to his platform. What else does he have to do?

[Thinkingabout]

192. After Seattle, he missed opportunity after NN, O'Malley met with them after NN.

[noiretextatique]

261. bullshit eom

[Thinkingabout]

262. Yes it is bullshit, he mussed an opportunity.

[beerandjesus]

5. I was wondering about this too.....

...but was too polite to ask.

Either that, or I wasn't up for the flaming that would ensue.

Take your pick.

[leftofcool]

10. Hillary sat down with BLM for a discussion. Bernie walks off the stage.

[whatchamacallit]

13. Hillary got her ring kissed.

[NuclearDem]

27. Because if there's one thing you do around someone under Secret Service protection

it's shout at and assault that person.

Nope, that wouldn't be interpreted as an aggressive act whatsoever.

[whatchamacallit]

48. Convenient excuse

There's a lot of room between BLM's "It's a privilege and an honor..." reverent tones and a clear physical danger to the candidate. No, that doesn't quite explain it.

[SonderWoman]

16. And cancelled his meeting with BLM.

Convenient how they skipped that part. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122329/bernie-sanders-and-martin-omalley-failed-their-blacklivesmatter-test

[Old Crow]

46. If you have any proof at all of what you're claiming, please provide a link.

The article you've linked to simply states that after the Netroots Nation demonstration, Sanders "canceled all his events, including meetings with black and brown activists." Nowhere in the piece does it state that he "canceled his meeting with BLM," as you state. Had Sanders canceled a meeting with BLM, the author of the piece would surely have stated that, as it would have advanced his thesis by leaps and bounds. But he makes no such claim.

Yet you are, which I find curious. Link please?

[azurnoir]

65. That's from July 19 nothing about a meeting with #BLM just Neotroots

[SoapBox]

96. Specify...

"Sanders canceled all his events, including meetings with black and brown activists."

When and where were all these meetings scheduled?

And interesting how the article slams only Democrats as well as making them the targets of their protests.

Try that crap with Republicans and Tea Baggers...ya know, the ones that CONTROL the Senate and House of Representatives? Keep up this stuff and we will lose the White House, it will get worse.

Targeting the absolute WRONG people is going no place.

[senz]

32. Bernie did NOT walk off the stage.

He stood to the back, still on stage, listened to the two women, and bowed his head during the moment of silence.

Don't start false memes, leftofcool.

[AtomicKitten]

80. He stayed on stage for 20 minutes.

At that point when the girls refused to relinquish the mic, he left.

It's on the record, no point trying revisionist history, but the Clinton campaign is running on contrived bullshit because she can't win on the issues so this crap is all they have.

[jfern]

195. It's pretty clear that some will attack Sanders

no matter what he does. Unless he stops challenging the inevitable one.

[eridani]

205. He left because he had a fundraiser to get to before the big night rally

I wasn't there--couldn't afford $200.

[SoapBox]

33. What crap...

BLM got locked out of her main event...no disruption allowed at that time.

Bernie was virtually shoved off the stage in Seattle...the mic was DEMANDED from him which he handed over...he then stood on stage during the ranting...any wonder why he eventually went down into the audience.

What a low thing to say

[Ino]

35. Sat down?

You did see the video, right? They were standing, which was an intentional message in itself.

[azurnoir]

47. yes he did after the person in charge of the social security rally closed down the event

[frylock]

92. Hillary did not sit down with BLM for a discussion..

she stood there and nodded her head until she was whisked away by her staff.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

154. Hillary didn't allow BLM to speak to her supporters

she carted them away to another room!

[JI7]

19. i don't think they really care about being polite

It would have been worse if she put on some phony act.

[cali]

21. Sanders of course

Because up is down and the grass is purple. Oops, I'll probably get alerted for saying that.

[moobu2]

29. Bernie purposed legislation that he knows has no chance of passing too.

again.

[Armstead]

130. Another stupid assed meme

Like no politician ever proposes legislation as a candidate without full knowledge that it is not likely to pass in its original form? Clinton never does that?

But I'm not going to hash that fricking bit of distortion out right now.

[beam me up scottie]

135. +1

It's such a weak meme it doesn't deserve any other reponse.

[JackInGreen]

263. oh no

he has the courage of his convictions to hold them up to public scrutiny, oh whatever shall we do.
Reach further, FURTHER, you can do it, really Tantalus, if you're going to ever get those grapes you have to reach FURTHER.

[MisterP]

30. presumably the white fragility and Democrats' resistance to outside styles of activism

and telling POC how to respond to their oppression and taking offense solely because one's candidate was insulted were too obvious for comment in this case! DOY!

[LiberalArkie]

31. I love the way the B.L.M. matter has managed to move the discussion away from

helping the middle class
helping the poor
helping the students with college
improving the health care system
stopping the school to prison pipeline
etc
and moved the topic to an old racist white man from a northern small state running for president against nice young white woman whose husband left his previous job dead broke and in debt.

They do it every time, move the target. I fully expect the discussion to be like it was back in Bill's first term "We have to do something to help all these poor banks that are suffering from kids not paying their school loans and credit card bills. And we have to do something about all these welfare people robbing us blind".

I can see the topic turning.

[L0oniX]

85. ^^^this^^^

[Armstead]

131. School Uniforms and V-Chips in TVs were the solution to everything as I recall

[randys1]

151. THey? So BLM is really a rightwing group undercover?

How do these kind of comments survive on DU?

[beam me up scottie]

157. No one said that, they were referring to the Clintons.

The op is about Clinton supporters constantly using the blm movement as a weapon against Bernie.

It's sleazy, manipulative and given her recent performance hypocritical.

[randys1]

159. THEY do it every time is what the person said.

THEY meaning who?

ANYONE reading that would assume BLM is misdirecting people from the real issues.

ANYONE

Dont argue with me, try and find a BLACK person on this thread to talk to about it. oh wait, that might be hard.

wonder why

[beam me up scottie]

161. Why not ask them instead of trying to get their post hidden?

And obviously SOMEONE didn't see it the way you did.

You don't get to unfairly make up a claim like that and expect everyone to agree with you.

[randys1]

163. a. didnt try to get it hidden b. why are YOU responding not them?

I didnt try to hide it, I was astonished that such crap is allowed here without everyone,, YOURSELF included, demanding that shit not be allowed



If you attack BLM, then you attack me and others.

[beam me up scottie]

165. No one is attacking blm. The only one attacking is you.

You could have asked for clarification instead of hurling accusations.

[randys1]

166. ATtacking is EXACTLY what it is

[beam me up scottie]

167. Repeating it won't make it true.

I think they were referring to the Clintons not blm.

We disagree on that.

I do agree that attacking blm is counterproductive and I hope that most DUers support their cause.

[Armstead]

236. As one of "them" I was referring to the Clintons

And those of their supporters who keep recycling this misleading crap about Sanders

[randys1]

238. you folks allege BLM is knowingly or not being used to harm Bernie's campaign

A. BLM is not being used by anyone

B. If the media or Hillary campaign is capitalizing on BLM actions for their own agenda or betterment, it has NOTHING to do with BLM

C. BLM movement, the issue, is FAR more important than ANY of these individual candidates

D. Ultimately, we know the Democratic candidate will be far better for BLM and human survival in general, no matter who it is, so we all work for that goal, to elect the Democratic candidate WHOEVER that is.

[Armstead]

242. B....

a lot of people here and elsewhere have been using those episodes to create clouds on Sanders' lifelong commitment to civil rights and racial justice.

That's an irrefutable truth.

It may have not been an intention by BLM to single Sanders out and give his political opponents the opportunity to create a false comparison between him and Clinton, but that's what happened.

[randys1]

247. Every time you respond, everything you say when you do this, just makes it worse

MAY have not been?

Talk about b

[Armstead]

250. wasn't...how's that.

You want to know why the "may not have been?"

Because as a grassroots organization which says it is decentralized, there may ne people involved on some level who also decided to do a little political mischief at the same time. or people in the outer circle of supporters who have decided to exploit it for political purposes.

Just as there may be among Sanders supporters some outright racists, or other who don't see the racial issue as a problem.

The whole situation sucks because it hit deep nerves on all sides.

[LiberalArkie]

184. They - you know the other people, the news media, the opposing forces

You remember the ones who ridiculed Howard Dean for the scream, you know them, the ones who ridiculed Jimmy Carter for wearing the sweaters and putting solar panels on the White House, the list can go on forever.

Those that always move the subject from Wall Street raping everyones finances - Occupy became derelicts asking for handouts and causing disruptions.

They have to change the subject. Remember that black preacher who non-violently tried to bring equal rights to people who did not have many. He became a communist, a rabble rouser, a womanizer. All sorts of evil things, just to move the topic away from people realizing that a lot of people did not have the same rights as others.

You know, those people. They...

[Bobbie Jo]

172. Once again, the answer to the OP

"Who's out of step?"

Some of his supporters have shown, and continue to show a tone deaf, hostile attitude on this front.

This demonstration was incredibly ugly...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=541238

Many of us won't forget how they spoke about these people.

[randys1]

224. Thank YOU

[Armstead]

243. Some of the reaction was an ugly response to ugly accusations

A man who has had a lifelong commitment to civil rights and racial justice is accused of having a "problem" regarding race and worse, after being shouted down at two appearances. And that his supporters are "cluess, arrogent white progressives" who are also racially "tone deaf."

Yeh his supporters are going to get offended. And respond in the same spirit.

Ugly is not good on either side. But it's a two way street.

[Bobbie Jo]

246. This post tells me you didn't even bother

Last edited Tue Aug 25, 2015, 04:42 PM - Edit history (1)

to read this:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/ablc/2015/08/11/blacklivesmatter-hurt-feelings-white-progressives/
up against the vicious comments in the threads that were posted.


No, this street was decidedly one way ugly.

[Armstead]

252. I did read it

I wonlt defend outright harassment,and some of it is awful.

But sshe lost me at the part where "your opinion doesn't count" and that no one is allowed to voice any form of disagreement, even mild disagreement or attempts at dialogue unless it is total agreement.

[Vattel]

37. Nailed it.

[azurnoir]

44. It baffles me that after weeks of outrage here on DU over

White people supposedly telling Black people how to handle and exactly what their race problems are, when Hillary does that it's as you say crickets

[George II]

49. She didn't "wag her finger" - did you see the two of them and their hand gestures?

Sanders waffled and went the way the wind was blowing (anyone see that "weathervane" post this morning about Clinton? )

Hillary Clinton was firm but understanding, and between the two encounters (Clinton in that video and Sanders at Seattle), she came out looking much more presidential and decisive.

[Laser102]

59. I saw that! She was awesome.

[magical thyme]

75. "wag her finger" was polite. did you even watch the video?

What she did manage to do was not offer a single policy or idea on "how we're going to deal with the problem," instead making it their responsibility to tell her how to deal with the problem (ie their responsibility to tell her how to do her job).

As to the difference in how they handled the situation, you seem to have forgotten that Sanders was at an invitational, outdoor event and the planners of that event failed to provide adequate security. And that he was blindsided as a result, by screaming, shrieking "activists" who actually became physically violent with him, living up to every negative stereotype they possibly could have.

As opposed to Hillary, who was at her own (indoor) event with her own security, which enabled them to stop the BLM activists at the door. That she was not blindsided and interrupted on stage, but was given advance notice. That the activists went out of their way to be very polite and respectful.

And yet she still failed to answer their concerns in even a general way. How many years running for office, and she still had nothing to offer on how to address structural racism.

Frankly I was shocked at how poorly she came across. Not Presidential at all, in my mind. She was rude to her constituents.

I will grant you this, she came across as very decisive in avoiding giving any real answer.

[senz]

107. She came across overbearing, condescending, interrupting, unfriendly & just a tad defensive.

Reminds me of her Terry Gross fiasco/interview. Never heard anyone speak so rudely to Ms. Gross.

[Utopian Leftist]

138. "I will grant you this, she came across as very decisive in avoiding giving any real answer."

Exactly!

I've noticed that every time she speaks, doesn't matter what topic, her reply is entirely without any substance, whatsoever. Amazing to witness, but incredibly boring after awhile, as all her answers sound the same and never inform. It is the political equivalent of a fart: entirely empty of anything valuable.

[lewebley3]

231. Hillary gave a very real answer: She said get a plan: She said what do you want done?

Hillary handle the these people perfectly: the only thing wanted from
her was to say she feels their pain. She is not Bill Clinton, she showed
she cared by listening and telling them to get a plan.

[magical thyme]

234. they asked her for *her* plan, how *she* intended to address violence against POC

But I'm guessing she didn't want to discuss her *lack* of a plan.

[lewebley3]

254. Hillary, did address the violence she said it was bad: Like very one thinks: She is not in office!

Obama is office not her!

[magical thyme]

258. saying violence is bad is how she plans to address it if/when she is in office? seriously?

They were asking for how she plans to address violence. She has no plan.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Larry Wilmore wasn't very impressed with her "presidential" performance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251532853

"Presidential"

[immoderate]

188. I'm glad I clicked on that.

--imm

[beam me up scottie]

189. I often wake up the dogs and cats lol when I watch the Nightly Show.

Same with Jon Stewart - damn him for getting a life and depriving us during primary season.

[Gman]

56. The difference is she has the credibility with them

So Sanders is lacking something. However, kudos to him for reacting positively.

[jwirr]

63. I do not see what gives her credibility. She supported tough on crime laws

as much as Bill. And NOW she is apologizing? At election time?

The only thing I will give her credibility on is some women's issues but not even there totally - I was one of the people effected by welfare-reform.

[uponit7771]

89. Didn't sanders vote for those same laws? Yeah, yeah he did

[senz]

115. No. No he did not. Bernie's voting record on crime:

Voted YES on reinstating $1.15 billion funding for the COPS Program. (Mar 2007)

Voted YES on funding for alternative sentencing instead of more prisons. (Jun 2000)

Voted NO on more prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crime. (Jun 1999)

Voted YES on maintaining right of habeas corpus in Death Penalty Appeals. (Mar 1996)

Voted NO on making federal death penalty appeals harder. (Feb 1995)

Voted YES on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment. (Apr 1994)

Rated 78% by CURE, indicating pro-rehabilitation crime votes. (Dec 2000)

More funding and stricter sentencing for hate crimes. (Apr 2001)

Require DNA testing for all federal executions. (Mar 2001)

Increase funding for "COPS ON THE BEAT" program. (Jan 2007)

Reduce recidivism by giving offenders a Second Chance. (Mar 2007)

Source: http://ontheissues.org/Bernie_Sanders.htm

[George II]

168. So did Sanders! But the Clintons are responsible for it, Sanders gets a pass.

And now Sanders is "apoligizing"? At election time?

[eridani]

209. Becaust the 2007 candidate of "hardworking people, white people" really gets--

--what POC experience. And nothing shows love for POC like putting so many more of them in prison in the 90s.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1995/Record-12-Month-Growth-in-U-S-Prison-Population/id-b8d20045e181cbccd1a8a6ba80ee0ff5

Why don't you tell us all about Sanders' "Sistah Souljah" moment?

Or show us when he has ever cheered any execution, let alone that of a mentally damaged black man?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/05/22/520138/-Bill-Clinton-Killed-A-Black-Man-To-Become-President

[beam me up scottie]

212. Omg, that second article...

The best lawyers, the best arguments, were before Bill Clinton when he decided whether or not to snuff Ricky Ray Rector. But the best argument to the lawyer Bill Clinton was that if he snuffed this man he would prove himself tough not only on crime, but on blacks.

So he killed him.

For fifty minutes they searched for a vein in Ricky Ray Rector's arm, and then they killed him. He had left his slice of pecan pie on his prison tray, telling his guard that, after his execution, he would come back to eat it, "later."

"Later," in 2002, tardily following the long-ago lead of Justice Marshall, then dead, the United States Supreme Court, voting 6-3, ruled that executing the mentally retarded or disabled constitutes cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

You read Sid Blumenthal's book, and you know that Bill Clinton is not a racist. But you get involved in the Ricky Ray Rector case, and you understand that Bill Clinton was ready, eager, and willing to use racism to attain political power.

He left his pie for later.

Not opposing the death penalty is another reason why I can't support Hillary.

--- For Ricky and all the others who were sacrificed in the name of "justice".

[pnwmom]

57. At Netroots Bernie threatened to leave, and then gave his standard stump speech,

ignoring the concerns of the BLM.

At Westlake Center in Seattle, he DID leave, without giving his keynote address to the crowd that had been waiting in the hot sun for more than an hour.

Before either of those incidents, in April, Hillary had already given an address strongly calling for criminal justice reform.

Who was out of step? Sanders.

[ibegurpard]

67. Who are you going to believe...me or your lying eyes?

The videos are out there for anyone to watch. Everyone trying to push the idea that this was anything other than a borderline disaster for Clinton is just spinning nonsense. This part was my favorite
"Yeah, well, respectfully, if that is your position, then I will talk only to white people about how we are going to deal with a very real problem."

Spectacular I tell you!

[pnwmom]

70. Apparently you missed the Netroots and Westlake center videos. n/t

[ibegurpard]

72. nope I saw the westlake video

Where he gave up the mic to them. No finger wagging or "advice" from him about how to "sell" their movement. You do realize that in the age of the Internet people can watch and read all this stuff for themselves right? Your spin attempts are quite sad.

[pnwmom]

81. And then he deserted all the supporters who had come to hear him talk.

And left them yelling profanities at the BLM.

Not his finest moment.

[cascadiance]

74. That's unfair...

In the case of Seattle, had he or any of those organizing the event (it WAS NOT his campaign event, but one on social security, etc.) tried to stop them and used security personnel to force them off the stage, it would have created an even bigger spectacle than what THEY (the BLM people) created when they did what THEY did to stop the event. Bernie's personnel didn't have control over that situation, or they likely would never have gotten close to the stage to create that problem to start with.

It was the fault of those calling themselves representatives of BLM and their SELFISH SELF-SERVING antics that were responsible for that event ending early, and no one else's! Get it? The spinners can continue to try to spin this as much as they want, but ultimately those who support Bernie, BLM, and things like social security and the other topics of that rally saw the interruption for what it was. An un-constructive obstruction of him speaking. They won their little war of stopping him speaking, whatever that solved for them, but it didn't win over any other people that were wanting solutions to fixing the problems of this country as opposed to having personal issues or partisan reasons for wanting to have a means of try and taint Bernie.

Netroots was also a gathering of people that wanted to hear discussions on the topic of immigration, and not ONLY hear discussions of what certain people calling themselves BLM reps wanted to talk about or just yell chants about. Now, Netroots in my mind at least was better in that it was more a focus on being heard, rather than insulting others like those in Seattle was, but it still could have been done more effectively than it was.

The concerns of BLM in my book are not labeling people who might be their friends "white supremacists". I'm fully confident that 99% of those in BLM also feel the same way about that, as I believe that in their hearts they want decent changes that most of us progressives want for the community of POC, and not to divide us.

[frylock]

98. At Westlake Center in Seattle, the organizer of the event SHUT IT DOWN.

Nobody is buying your bullshit.

[pnwmom]

99. He shut it down because the keynoter decided to leave.

There wasn't much point in keeping it going with the keynoter gone.

[pnwmom]

105. It is a fact that Bernie was the keynoter. It is a fact that he left before giving his address.

What part of this is too hard for you to understand?

http://www.thestranger.com/events/22655461/bernie-sanders-keynote

Bernie Sanders Keynote

PUBLIC MEETING
Westlake Park (map) Downtown
Sat., Aug. 8, 1-3 p.m. 2015

Sanders give the keynote address for the "Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid: Celebrating Decades of Success" rally.

[frylock]

110. The keynoter was running a tight schedule and didn't have all day to stand there..

however, he did give it another 20 minutes before leaving. It was pretty evident that the two protesters had no intention of wrapping it up anytime soon. How much longer was he obligated to stand there, while they demanded that he #bowdownbernie?

[pnwmom]

114. He gave them plenty of time. He would have been justified to then have them ejected.

That would have been better than to leave with the crowd shouting angry profanities at the BLMers.

But hopefully he learned from this not to appear at any other events where he can't control the stage and the mic.

[frylock]

120. ho-leee shit! had them ejected?!

I couldn't even begin to imagine the shitstorm that would've ensued here if Sanders were to have protesters removed from an event that HE WASN'T EVEN HOSTING!

[senz]

153. Why...that's simply not true, pnwmom. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[pnwmom]

207. What isn't true? Bernie was the keynoter and they ended it because he left. nt

[eridani]

206. You're part of the Socical Security Works Coalition, so you know he was the keynoter

[/sarcasm] My organization happens to be a member of that coalition, so I know that none of our publicity even mentioned Sanders until 6 days before the rally, because we regarded his attendance as a long shot. It would have gone on with the other speakers (majority people of color, BTW) regardless, just as it had been since 2010. (SSW was formed in response to the Catfood Commission that year.)

The rally ended because we were supposed to be out of there by 3pm, for your information. Sanders was the last scheduled speaker (he had 5 minutes assigned), and the coalition members on stage at the time decided in favor of the 4.5 minutes of silence instead. Sanders deferred to the organizers, as was approporate.

[pnwmom]

208. I know he was the keynoter because he was advertised, in advance, as the keynoter.

I don't know how you missed this. It was well advertised in the time they had available.

So, yes, he was definitely the keynoter. Or he would have been, if he hadn't left.


http://www.thestranger.com/events/22655461/bernie-sanders-keynote

Bernie Sanders Keynote

PUBLIC MEETING
Westlake Park (map) Downtown
Sat., Aug. 8, 1-3 p.m. 2015

Sanders give the keynote address for the "Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid: Celebrating Decades of Success" rally.

_______________________________________

And there was this:

http://www.northwestmusicscene.com/2015/07/bernie-sanders-to-speak-at-seattles-westlake-park-and-theres-music-too/

How’s this for a guest speaker? Feeling The Bern yet? By now you must have seen the hashtag #FeelTheBern or the countless memes and T-Shirts support Bernie Sanders. Organizers of an anniversary celebration rally for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid planned for Saturday, Aug. 8 in downtown Seattle announced today that Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has accepted an invitation to attend and speak at the event. Bernie will give the keynote address for “Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid: Celebrating Decades of Success,” an event being held in downtown Seattle. It’s gonna be a madhouse down there, can’t wait!

_____________________________________

And this:


http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/presidential-hopeful-bernie-sanders-seattle-saturd/nnDwM/

SEATTLE — Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders will be in Seattle this weekend for two events.

Sanders will be the keynote speaker at a rally at Seattle's Westlake Park. The event will be streamed live on kirotv.com.

Organizers say it's a celebration to mark the 80th anniversary of Social Security and the 50th anniversary of Medicare.

Sanders will be joined at the Westlake event by U.S. rep Adam Smith, Seattle folksinger Jim Page and Seattle councilmember Kshama Sawant.

______________________________________________

And this:

http://fanwa.org/calendar/social-security-medicare-celebration/

Faith Action Network

Social Security & Medicare Celebration with Keynote Speaker Senator Bernie Sanders

[eridani]

210. And how did you miss the two hours that the event had already been going on before he got there? n/

[pnwmom]

211. I don't know how the schedule was supposed to run, but he WAS the keynoter.

Or he was supposed to be.

Maybe he arrived late. That often happens with politicians, as you know.

[Major Hogwash]

214. Sanders wasn't allowed to speak. Those 3 gals played "keep the mic away from him" for 20 minutes.

It wasn't even their event to speak at, they weren't even supposed to be up on that stage.
So, after realizing that he wasn't going to ever be allowed to speak to the audience, Bernie left.
Like a true gentleman, he just quietly left, like the statesman that he is.

[GitRDun]

66. Another useless post by a BS supporter

There are plenty of areas where Hillary can improve.

This is OP is a lie...period. She did not wag her finger at anyone.

These kinds of posts are why people think some Sanders supporters are simply delusional.

[L0oniX]

79. Another useless response to a BS supporter.

[GitRDun]

142. Very nice!

Touche'

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. You know there is video

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Vattel]

94. Lol, the finger was very active. If I had been one of the BLM guys, I would have backed up some

to avoid being finger-stabbed. And while the finger was risking innocent life, she was telling the BLM people what she thought they needed to do. I don't have a problem with that, but plenty of hypocritical posters who have been attacking Sanders supporters for telling BLM people what to do have fallen silent when Hillary did exactly that.

[Old Crow]

97. You're correct about the word "wagging." It was inaccurate.

What the original poster should have stated was that HRC "jabbed her finger" and "aggressively pointed her fist" in the personal space of the Black Lives Matters representative while Whitesplaining how they should run their movement.

Hope that clarification helps.

To see video documenting exactly what I've described above, advance to the 8 min 35 sec mark in the following video.

[GitRDun]

145. No

She gestures towards him while listing the things he's correct about. Her voice is soft.

The BLM guy gestured with his hands while he talked as well.

I just have no patience for this stuff.

Neither HRC or BS is guilty of not caring about BLM.

[Old Crow]

149. The amazing thing I see on here, your post included...

... is that the Hillary supporters are describing this videotaped encounter as wonderful--one HRC supporter on here described it as her "defining moment." Yet the Black Lives Matter representatives, in interviews after the fact, felt otherwise. Rather than describing it as a nirvana moment of buttered scones and unicorns, they expressed disappointment with how Hillary did not express any real contrition for the policies that have led to mass incarcerations of persons of color and instead chose to tell them how they ought to conduct their own movement.

So who am I supposed to believe here? Your version? Or the opinion of Black Lives Matter?

I'd also like to understand this: If Hillary now recognizes that the policies she championed have dramatically increased the incarcerations of persons of color, why is she now accepting money from the prisons-for-profit industry? That seems more than a little contradictory to me.

Lastly, whether or not you have patience for people who disagree with you is immaterial.

[beam me up scottie]

150. Well said, Old Crow.

[GitRDun]

155. A typical BS supporter response

First of all, I am not a Hillary supporter as you suggest.

Second, I did not describe the encounter as wonderful. I merely said she was not being aggressive. There's a difference.

Third, I think BLM is right to be upset about the past. And Hillary could have done a better job acknowledging, better defining her role back then. It shouldn't be a big deal, even Bill has admitted in retrospect the policies were wrong. That is one of her weaknesses as a candidate. She can be evasive, even when it's not necessary. She did not, however, champion these policies, as you say. You've got to stop drinking the Kool-aid.

I also believe the contributions meme has been debunked here. The reality is that one of her bundlers is a lawyer who works for a firm that has private prisons as clients. Big deal.

Try reading what people say, before responding. You might find it helpful.

[Old Crow]

175. I always read what people say before responding.

Last edited Mon Aug 24, 2015, 10:31 PM - Edit history (2)

Just as I've read this last post of yours very carefully.

1. You say HRC was not being aggressive.
I'm not sure how you can watch the video and come away with that interpretation. What I saw was that she took visible offense when the BLM representative stated that she was victim blaming; she looks away, disgusted; she then decides to assert herself and comes on strong, stepping toward the representative's space and says in a "let's-cut-the-bullshit" tone, "No, I'm not talking about--look, I don't believe you change hearts." She then goes on to talk over the representative and whitesplain how the Black Lives Matter should conduct its movement.

See 8:20-9:34 in the video below.

2. You say that HRC "did not...champion these policies" and that I should "stop drinking the Kool-Aid."
Yet in 1994, Hillary Clinton actively lobbied for the passage of The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act. Still think that's not championing the policies? How about her own words, then? In a speech from August 10, 1994:

There is something wrong when a crime bill takes six years to work its way through Congress and the average criminal serves only four…. We need more police. We need more and tougher prison sentences for repeat offenders. We need more prisons to keep violent offenders for as long as it takes to keep them off the streets…. We will be able to say, loudly and clearly, that for repeat, violent, criminal offenders—three strikes and you’re out. We are tired of putting you back in through the revolving door.

Still think I'm drinking Kool-Aid?

3. You say that you believe the private prison contributions to HRC's campaign have been "debunked" and that "the reality" is that "one of her bundlers is a lawyer who works for a firm that has private prisons as clients. Big deal."
Yet the reality is that not one of Hillary's bundlers have ties to private prison corporations, SIX of them do. Five of her bundlers are from the lobbying and law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld, which received lobbying fees totaling $240,000 from Corrections Corporation of America in 2014. A sixth is a registered lobbyist for the Geo Group, which operates both jails and immigrant detention centers for profit. The rise of the private prison industry has occurred largely as a result of the policies she championed as first lady in 1994 (see #2 above). Apparently, she's okay with that since she's accepting their cash and has never once uttered a syllable of criticism regarding prisons-for-profit. Hmmm. Seems like kind of a "big deal" to me.

Did I miss anything?

[Bobbie Jo]

173. Sorry, no

We've already seen your opinion of these people:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=502910

So who am I supposed to believe here? Your version? Or the opinion of Black Lives Matter?

[Old Crow]

176. I honestly have no idea what your post is supposed to mean.

Care to speak a bit more plainly?

[Bobbie Jo]

177. It's plain enough.

I'm sorry, was that not your post?

You explain it.

[Old Crow]

178. I'm trying to communicate here.

You made a post that I can't understand--but apparently you don't want to explain it. Okay. Not sure what that accomplishes, to be honest, but it's your nickel.

[Bobbie Jo]

179. Again

We've seen your opinion of these people, and now you claim to give a rat's ass what they think?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=502910

Clear enough?

[Old Crow]

182. Ahhhh. Okay, my apologies. Now I get it.

It took me a few clicks on your link because, since it went to a post of mine that was hidden, I didn't see the post (which is small and in the shaded box at the top); I thought you were just referring to the entire thread, thus my confusion.

Yes, I had a post hidden. I used the word "thugs" to describe what I saw in Seattle when the two women basically took over the event. It was a terrible choice of noun; I don't have a TV and didn't know that the word had become a slur on Fox and elsewhere. I was offended by the tactics at the time, which seemed over-the-top (particularly the "Bow-Down-Bernie" meme). And I'll say now that I think the behavior of those two women, frankly, seemed unhinged.

I said I no longer supported BLM in that post. That was an emotional reaction to what had just occurred and I regret the statement. If I could go back in time, I'd amend my statement to, "I don't support these kinds of bullying tactics. But I do support racial justice and I do support BLM."

I recognize that you may not believe anything I've stated in this post. Passions are running high and people on both sides are quick to judge (as was I, in my hidden post).

[TheFarS1de]

160. Of course that is how it went .

[beam me up scottie]

171. ^^^THIS^^^

Not everyone thought Hillary put on a stellar performance.

That skit is hilarious.

[Juicy_Bellows]

185. I'd love for a Hillary supporter to address Wilmore's take.

I noticed in the original thread none chimed in. Cheers!

Edit - the pattern continues.

[beam me up scottie]

186. Me too!

[JackInGreen]

264. We won't ever see it happen

not to the facts. We'll hear more about how shitty Bernie supporters are for pointing it out.

[Armstead]

257. This whole subject is useless

If I did not see that phony meme repeated over and over, I would have just let it rest. But it keeps cropping up, no matter what Sanders does.

[Maedhros]

78. Sanders' supposed "problem" with people of color

was a dishonest political smear from the beginning. It's no surprise that it has remained dishonest.

[uponit7771]

93. You know many people of color don't even know Sanders to have a problem with him

[cui bono]

194. Are you calling PoC stupid? Uninformed?

[uponit7771]

223. Red herring... Not the slightest intimation in my post of such. FACT many PoC don't know who Bernie

[cui bono]

259. I COMPLETELY agree with you. I said that because that's the accusation made to anyone who points

out that Bernie is an unknown when they are explaining why Bernie has low polling across the board. We are then accused of saying that PoC are stupid and uninformed. Thank you for proving that is not what we are saying at all.

The fact is that Bernie is not a household name as Clinton is. If he were he would be polling much higher among all racial groups.

[frazzled]

88. Or ...

When confronted by BLM, Sanders walked off stage, looking rather like a deer caught in the headlights, and subsequently had his staff issue a written set of talking points from above.

Clinton, by contrast, took the time to engage personally with the protesters, listening to them patiently for some time and asking for them to participate in the policy changes THEY would like to see. Because change comes from the bottom up, not the distanced top down.

Who's out of step? It all depends on your perspective.

[Armstead]

106. The protestors asked her

Tey didnlt ask Sanders if they could start yelling at him and shouting him down.

Big difference

[jeff47]

109. You know video exists of these events, right?

As a result, you lying about what happened during these events is not a terribly good idea.

Sanders stayed on stage until his time was up. Then he left to get to the next event.

Who's out of step? It all depends on your perspective.

Perhaps we should actually ask the BLM activists instead of your less-than-truthful spin. The people who met with Clinton were not impressed by the whitesplaining and lack of any significant response to their questions.

But there's a meme to feed, so I guess those videos are just right-wing conspiracies.

[frazzled]

119. I've watched the videos of both events

And the above reflects my honest perception.

To call me a "liar" is alert-worthy, but I don't do that. I'll just say that this kind of nastiness is extremely unbecoming and majorly off-putting. Your claim to a lock on the "truth" is misplaced and paternalistic.

[jeff47]

122. Sure you have.

And the above reflects my honest perception.

You should really seek medical attention if 20 minutes of time disappears like that. Daydreaming or other distractions would be one thing, but you claimed you were closely watching 20 minutes of video. That much time disappearing when you are concentrating could be an indication of a serious problem.

Also, you kinda glossed right over the perception of the activists speaking to Clinton. Isn't their reaction just a wee bit more important in judging how she spoke to them?

To call me a "liar" is alert-worthy, but I don't do that. I'll just say that this kind of nastiness is extremely unbecoming and majorly off-putting.

Tell you what, post the video showing Sanders leaving either stage before his time is up.

Because that is what you said happened. And if it isn't a lie, then you'd be able to post them easily.

[senz]

156. I'll repeat this just for you, frazzled.

Bernie did not walk off stage. He stayed and listened to the BLM message. Later he bowed his head during the moment of silence.

Now aren't you glad to have THE TRUTH at your disposal? I knew you would be.

[Old Crow]

113. No, it DOESN'T depend on your perspective.

It depends on the video recordings made of both events. And the video recordings plainly show that your version of events is at odds with reality.

[fbc]

100. who's not whose

it's a contraction: who is

[MrMickeysMom]

111. First, they ignore you, then they try to assassinate your character...

Before some unfortunate real assassination occurs, why don't we call out the fearful and brainless to task themselves with actual arguments on the issues?

Because, they have no argument with issues, thus avoiding it altogether. Much better to burn down the house.

I'll continue to call out the false narratives from every tiny brain-washed individual who enables it. Why do they do it? It's because… they are desperate. When you're out of ideas, and knee-deep in the pay-masters of this fully oligarchical state, expect that the other side could go quite medieval on your ass.

But, keep calling them out.

[senz]

124. Yeah but it's like a game of Whac-A-Mole. Lies keep poppin' up outta nowhwere.

But when we do call them out, we are, in our own small way, helping Bernie. Which means: helping the people of America.

A good thing.

[Uncle Joe]

123. Bernie did listen and expand his message, I suspect it will grow even more, Hillary is waiting

for Black Lives Matter to tell her what to do.

Thanks for the thread, Armstead.

[DanTex]

125. I thought she did well. She was candid, and didn't pander.

She knows how change actually happens. It would have been easier to just say a version of "elect me and all your problems will be fixed," but she was frank and honest with them.

[beam me up scottie]

129. But it was her "defining performance" according to one supporter.

It was cringeworthy and that's why her supporters keep harping on Bernie and his supporters.

It goes something like this:

"Wow did you see that video of Hillary shaking her finger at the polite young blm representative?"

"SQUIRREL!"

[riversedge]

132. It just makes you look foolish when you post such a subject line.

[Armstead]

134. And why is that? Bcause I am referring to hyperbolie with hyrbolie?

Or is it because I am referring to innuendo with innuendo?

(Or perhaps my grammatical error I just corrected.)

[beam me up scottie]

137. Really? As foolish as calling that Hillary's defining moment?

56 people have rec'd this op, they don't share your opinion.

Probably because we're sick of having this issue thrown in our faces week after week.

[senz]

146. It's bogus & it's all they got. All they got is boooguus! :-D

[beam me up scottie]

147. Lol!

Some Hillary supporters are above race baiting, the ones pushing this meme could learn a lot from them.

[L0oniX]

143. -

[senz]

144. Bernie ON STAGE after Seattle BLM protesters take the mic (photo)

Standing right there next to his wife. So those who claim "Bernie left the stage" are either mistaken or ....

[HassleCat]

152. Clinton reply similar to Sanders reply

Both candidates responded with policy and program ideas, and both responses were met with dissatisfaction from representatives of BLM. The people from Black Lives Matter are saying, "Don't give us the same old jive about policies and programs. We've heard that stuff for years, and you either don't deliver on your promises, or it doesn't work." Even though that is absolutely true, BLM has to understand that government is (1) not very creative and (2) policy and program oriented. There are some ways government can break out of the rut, but the candidates are likely to propose policies and programs that sound very familiar. Black Lives Matter does not seem to be very helpful, either, when it comes to imagining how government can effectively address the specific problems.

[BainsBane]

181. The problem was not Bernie's response

but how a number of his supporters behaved after both Netroots and Seattle. Clinton's supporters didn't invent conspiracy theories and insist BLM had no right to question a superior human being such as their chosen candidate. No Clinton supporter shouted "tase em" and other unsettling comments at the activists. We said yeah, go for it: racism is important; Back Lives Matter. At this point, however, I fault Sanders for not saying something to dissuade his supporters from that crap, and he has had multiple opportunities to do so.

[Armstead]

183. Emotions got high, as they always do

If the situation had been reversed, I don't think many of her supporters would suddenly be such ardent "defenders" of BLM or social justice or critics of "white supremacists progressives." Quite the contrary.

And if Sanders supporters were to use Clinton's momentary embarrassment to paint her and her supporters as racists, I think Clinton supporters would also become defensive and angry in the same way Sanders' supporters did (me included).

I would also suggest that your belief that Sanders should tell his supporters to tone it down applies equally to Clinton. She could have defended Sanders as not racist, and asked her supporters to tone down the crap that t=has been tossed at Sanders supporterss.

In otehr ways, traffic moves both ways on a two way street.

[BainsBane]

193. No, she should not have defended Sanders against the strawman created by his supporters

Last edited Tue Aug 25, 2015, 05:20 AM - Edit history (1)

Neither Sanders nor his supporters are victims. They are not being murdered by police. Those who vilified BLM should be condemned, not defended. It is interesting that you think words from Hillary Clinton would have altered the behavior of thousands of people, as though you see her leadership as more influential than Sanders.

No, great numbers of Clinton supporters would not have done the same thing because we are not the same people. Someone tried to insist we should be upset by BLM critiques of Clinton, saying "it's uncomfortable" when the shoe is one the other foot. No, it wasn't uncomfortable in the least, and many Clinton supporters said so. Then when someone else posted a poll asking if Clinton should do more to address racism, Clinton supporters voted yes. Naturally many of the Sanders supporters who insisted Bernie had no obligation to address the issue voted yes too because no issue or principle matters as much as promoting one man's career. I have theorized that is because they see him as a perfect political reflection of themselves, hence the frequent confusion between criticism of Sander's supporters and the candidate himself.

People don't behave as some of those Sanders supporters did unless that is who they are. I would sooner shoot myself in the head that carry on that way, particularly in order to defend a member of the political elite, which is among the least important reasons I can possibly imagine. Moreover, not all Sanders supporters behaved that way because that is not who they are. And some very good people decided they could no longer stand alongside such behavior and quit supporting Sanders as a result.

Your OP asked why there wasn't a fuss. There was a fuss about Bernie because many of his supporters chose to make everything about him and themselves because that is the sole focus of their political consciousness. When BLM protested Netroots, O'Malley was protested too. His supporters did not engage in conspiracy theories and harass black people on Twitter. Nor did they make it all about O'Malley. That is reflective of a certain mentality. It wouldn't have occurred to me in a million years to come up with anything like that, and I couldn't live with myself if I engaged in such behavior. As far as I'm concerned, Bernie, Clinton nor any other member of the political elite will never be as important as human rights and social justice, as black lives. It would seem that the people who attacked and continue to attack BLM see the issue differently.

If Clinton had stepped in to defend the white bourgeoisie from themselves, I would have been completely repulsed and could not continue supporting her. If she were to have done anything, it should have been to condemn it, but that of course would only have played into the conspiracy theories.

I learned a lot following Netroots and Seattle, principally who people are and why I share no common values with them. The reactions also confirmed my view that the anger many feel is about the decline of white, male middle and upper-middle class privilege, which is why it was so easy for them to attack leftist social activists working to save black lives.

I can tell you with absolutely certainty I would never in a million years behave that way; nor would I vote for a politician who would speak out in defense of that kind of behavior rather than black lives. It is not a two way street. It is a red-lined, $80k+ a year street, one I am very glad that I live no where near.

[Bonobo]

197. You have created a very tight little fantasy, but a bit inconsistent.

You have convinced yourself that the most progressive senator in the United States is actually a Trojan Horse representing only the 10% against the 1%.

How did you do this? By looking at the candidate? No.

You did it by creating an escalating and successive series of straw men, imaginary people who that you can then associate with Senator Sanders. Since the senator himself must be admitted as representing your values better than Clinton, you had to figure out a way to justify your contrary behavior (which probably has to do with identity politics).

Having vilified Sandes by association with your actively imagined set of 10% White, male Volvo-driving, self-involved, woman-hating, Economic Determinists, you must now undermine the very importance of the office itself, lest you be guilty of casting your vote for the wrong person.

This trick was neatly death with by deciding that all of us lesser fools really don't understand that the president has very little importance in the overall structure of the neocolonial, capitalistic, blah-blah, insert faux academic terms here political reality... So why NOT vote for a candidate that allies herself most closely with Wall Street? After all, we just don't understand true Marxism like you, right?

A bizarre and teetery structure, but that's just my opinion.

[Armstead]

202. You have a very complex set if determinations of what is acceptable

One would need a calculator and slide rule to try and figure out your convoluted litmus test of who is an acceptableb ally and who is politically incorrect and required to be banished.

[Bobbie Jo]

218. Agree with this completely

People don't behave as some of those Sanders supporters did unless that is who they are.

The attempts to explain this behavior away ring hollow to me.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[Armstead]

235. ummmmmm

[Bobbie Jo]

244. Yeah

Case in point.

The dismissive attitude is almost worse.

A lot of folks showed their bare behinds in response to BLM, and it was damn ugly.

[Armstead]

245. I was pissed and I'm not going to apologize for being pissed.

And I'm still pissed that some people won't let it go, and choose to perpetuate false divisions.And seem unwilling to actually have a constructive discussion about the larger issues involved.

It doesn't help on any side when people just talk AT each otehr instead of talking TO each other.

And yeah, I'm one those on both "sides" of this phony divide who've let emotions get ahead of better instincts.

It goes both ways though. Backsides have been flaunted all the way around.

[Bobbie Jo]

248. Well then...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=544896

It's fascinating what comes out of one's mouth (or keyboard, as it were) when they're "pissed."

Yeah, I wouldn't apologize either...

[Armstead]

251. whatever....if you EVER want to have a reasonable discussion...

and not try to raise innuendos or make unanswerable demands, I -- and I'm sure many others are -- happy to oblige.

Otherwise I'll go off now and be the awful person you want to imply.

[Bonobo]

196. Yup, we know already. It was his supporters, gotcha. Who gives a rat's ass about the candidates? nt

[delrem]

199. She didn't "wag her finger".

Be honest and compare the body of language of Hillary Clinton and Julius Jones.
The body language of Julius Jones was contained and respectful. It never intruded on Hillary Clinton's space, and was never aggressive.

In contrast, Hillary Clinton's body language was aggressive, intruding on the space of Julius Jones, with pointed finger/fist stabbing actions that I began to fear would actually start stabbing him in the chest, it was that close, that aggressive.

I know how I react to that kind of body language. Do you?

Hillary Clinton's language was imperious. "If that is your position, then I will talk only with white people about how we're going...."

I mean, how can it get more imperious than that?

This is not right, people. Not right at all.

[Bonobo]

213. Everything you said is the stone cold truth. nt

[blackspade]

219. Why are we continuing to throw logs on this fire?

[Armstead]

220. Because others keep throwing logs on it

I posted the OP in angry response to seeing this meme being continually repeated. I would much prefer to see it die a quiet death and we move on to other debates.

[blackspade]

221. I would prefer that as well, thus the basis of my question.

We continue to provide ammo to the M$M and Sanders detractors the more we respond to this worn out line of attack.

Sanders has put his reform proposal out. Let's discuss that by way of response.

[Armstead]

230. Unless another epidemic of this breaks out, I'm done with it

Talking about real specific issues and actual proposals? What a concept.

[mwooldri]

222. Excuse me while I pick up my Volvo. Nt

[lewebley3]

232. Sanders folded like a deck of cards: When confronted by BL: He screamed and ran away

[Armstead]

233. I missed the screaming and running. Gee, must have been happening in the Twilight Zone

[lewebley3]

255. It was at the Netroots: Check the video: Sanders does eveything but scream bet off my lawn

[Armstead]

256. If you were there....

I suppose you probably saw what provoked him too.

He had a bad moment on a human level. Her had a human reaction to being ambushed. So what?

That' a whooooooooooooooooooooooooole lot different than having a "racial problem."

[MaggieD]

239. She didn't need to make changes

Her campaign platform addressed racial justice issues long before it was even on Bernie's radar. Also, they said the convo with HRC was a good dialogue that moved the conversation forward.

[Armstead]

240. You mean long before Sanders was at the March on Washington?

Or before he headed the Jessee Jackson Presidential campaign in Vt. in the late 1980'?

Or.....etc.

[beam me up scottie]

241. Really? Explain this then:

Doesn't seem like she heard them at all.

[cali]

249. Hillary herself has admitted she was wrong on criminal justice

And she supports one of the most racist institutions in the country: the death penalty.

[d_legendary1]

253. If you're talking about the Omnibus Crime bill she supported

then yeah she did address the issue. She helped lock up the very same people she's going to bat for. Now she's against it before she was for it.

[WillyT]

260. K & R !!!