Why I DON'T support Bernie for President

[MaggieD]

This is a long post, but hopefully very specific about the reasons Bernie does not have my support. I am not a political newbie. I have been paying attention to and been involved in politics all of my adult life. I understand the issues. IOW, I am a highly informed voter.

Here are the reasons I do not support Bernie:

1. He talks a lot about the problems, but his policy prescriptions are either wrong, completely missing, or not viable/passable.

I actually want to start calling him Captain Obvious, because he seems to be stuck on telling us what the problems are over and over and over again. Millions upon millions of people in this country already know what the problems are. Every other progressive candidate sees the same thing and has spoken out about it. He is not a hero to me because he can see the obvious.

And there are some things he clearly doesn’t see that others do, or has been very much a Johnny come lately on issues, such as institutional racism.

His policy prescriptions are wrong in many cases, IMO. For instance, free college for “qualified” students is not something that will truly help PoC (and is not designed to). Their K-12 schools are horribly underfunded. First we must fix that problem or his free college pitch is just another pander to middle class white kids. And he wants to pay for it off the backs off fees that impact 401K and pension funds. That’s ridiculous. HRC’s and Obama’s proposals for free community college are much more viable.

HRC gets it. We need to find a way to beef up schools in urban areas with programs like head start and better funding. They should not take funding away from failing schools, they should increase it. Bernie seems oblivious to this.

Break up the banks? Reinstate Glass Steagall? Why? How will that help anything? It wasn’t commercial banks that failed. It was investment banks NOT tied to commercial banks and mortgage companies that failed. And thank god the commercial banks COULD absorb the investment banks or it would have been worse. The problem isn’t Glass Steagall; the problem is lax regulation of investment banks and others involved in the housing industry.

No wonder HRC won’t commit to reinstating Glass Steagall. It’s a fun talking point for rallies and will raise cheers from people who don’t understand the issue, but it won’t fix the problem.

On the TPP, as I have stated before, reasonable people can disagree on that. One of the best things about it is that it allows workers in other countries to organize into unions. That one thing could actually be the key to leveling the playing field. I don’t have anything against a candidate that is against trade agreements, but I at least expect him to articulate why, and what it would take to for him to be in favor of a trade agreement. We live in a global economy – that’s just a fact of life he seems to ignore. He doesn’t seem to have an alternative solution, and he sure as hell doesn’t seem capable of talking to people like they are adults on the issue like HRC does.

Nothing made Bernie look so inept and like an old out of touch white guy than Netroots nation. When challenged by BLM he went right back to the dumb economic equality talking point. You know why? Because that is what Bernie truly believes. Those that worked with him back in the days all his supporters like to rally around to prove he is some sort of civil rights champion have said that even back then he was convinced racial injustice was really rooted in classism. And he is completely wrong about that. So completely wrong.

I am not a PoC, but I am a lesbian. I spent my first 20 years in the closet so that I could have a shot at economic equality. And it worked. But when I came out of the closet 15 years ago after I was economically successful I did not find some sort of civil rights nirvana awaiting me. I still couldn’t marry my partner. I still had to raise a child whose parents could not marry. I still had to deal with discrimination day in and day out. My son was still bullied in school because he had two Moms. ANY GLBT person that has economic security can tell you that economic security does not confer civil rights. Despite what a lot of straight white privileged people seem to believe. It’s just bullshit. And I do not want a president that is so clueless on such an important issue.

HRC has voiced support for and championed policy proposals that actually impact the symptoms of racial injustice and has for a long time. Bernie is finally on board (at least mouthing the words after much pressure has been applied), but again, his Netroots nation performance was a dead giveaway that he doesn’t get it.

2. He has a very long record of accomplishing nothing. He has been in congress for 25 years with almost nothing to show for it, and certainly nothing that addresses the current issues we face. And I resent that he is introducing lots of legislation now that he knows is not passable, simply as fodder for his campaign. The senate staffers he has working on these issues are being paid with tax payer funds, all of which is being wasted.

Clearly he is unable to build the kind of coalitions that are needed to get things done. I know this from personal experience. It isn’t just BLM he ignores. Once I had made it career wise (economically) I did quite a bit of volunteer work for liberal policy advocacy groups at a fairly high level in DC. Bernie was nowhere to be found. Sure, he votes the right way, but he is completely uninterested in understanding the challenges faced by many of us – at least not interested enough to talk to us. It was absolutely no surprise to me that he wasn’t keen on talking to BLM. To me, it fits his MO exactly. An old white guy who thinks he knows best, and doesn’t need to hear from anyone else.

You know who can build coalitions? HRC. She has spent her life doing just that. Not being able to play well with others is a no go for me when it comes to a presidential candidate. Our issues are just too important.

3. He is not a Democrat. In fact he has spent 25 years dissing Democrats, even to the point of calling for a primary on Obama in 2012 (as I make sure to remind every PoC I meet that mentions the presidential campaign).

Don’t give me this “he’s running as a Democrat” baloney. See item #2. He isn’t going to be able to build a coalition with Dems in congress because he has scorned them for decades.

4. Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists. This is not in any way specific to DU. I see it all over the internet. On Facebook, Twitter, comments on liberal blogs – just everywhere. It’s impossible for Bernie to be unaware of some of the really clueless and sometimes overtly racist things his supporters say hundreds of times a day. As far as I can tell, he has not said a word about it. He is either oblivious or content to let it slide.

Even if you don’t put that on him, at some point a person is known by the company they keep, or the crowd that supports them. I can’t even imagine throwing my voice into that mix by supporting him. I don’t think I have ever been more disheartened as a progressive than I have been in watching the comments of Bernie supporters over the last few months. In fact, even the 2004 blaming of the gays for Kerry’s loss wasn’t as disheartening as Bernie’s supporters are saying now. Just no. I will not join them.

[seabeyond]

1. maggie, welcome back

i have missed your voice. now, lets read what you have to say.

[MaggieD]

2. Thank you!

[Rockyj]

588. I am Native American...

and we respect our elders, and would never cut an allies free speech in order to get a point across! Many black people are embarrassed of this Black Lives Matter sub group's tactics.
So am I a Native American privileged supremacist liberal because I'm pissed @ what these two women did to Bernie Sanders in Seattle?
Actually, these two women are lucky as I was going to take a two hour drive to Seattle to hear him @ Westlake but decided against it when I heard Taylor Swift & a Mariner's game was also going on.

[seabeyond]

591. " these two women are lucky as I was going to take a two hour drive "

why are these two women lucky? what are you implying you would do, that these two young women are LUCKY you did not take the time and effort to go listen to the speech?

[okasha]

644. So you're okay

with Sanders' vote for the bill that sold out the Apache Nation by handing their sacred land at Oak Flat over to a foreign mining company for the ultimate benefit of the MIC? What kind of Native American regards such a man as an "ally?"



And before you ask, I'm Tsalagi.

[short circuit]

683. stick her back in the fridge

Didn't even last 10 days before another icing...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=106348&sub=trans

[yardwork]

685. Wow. Those are bullshit hides.

That's the clearest example of alert stalking I've ever seen. Just wow.

[R B Garr]

686. +1000. Tota;;y bu;;shit hides. Brought to you by the Milk and Cookies for Bernie

brigade. He who must be coddled! It's beyond sickening at this point.

[Capt. Obvious]

687. Not really

But then again, whenever I get hides it's due to the conspiracy of alert stalking and not my own behavior.

[Dawgs]

3. "Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists." n/t

[sibelian]

4. "Elitists"!!!

Hmmmm...

Where have I heard THAT before...?

[SonderWoman]

8. Perhaps from Bernie's own supporters?

[Dawgs]

14. One guys opinion is not 'many of his supporters are racists'. n/t

[seabeyond]

19. yes. when i came back on the board, after kicked off, my comment is... you are welcome.

you are welcome i put myself out there even with the attacks, hides, and kicked off.

i love this guy. he says exactly what i feel.

[MaggieD]

44. Yep - agreed!

He is spot on. If more Bernie supporters were like him it would be nice.

[1StrongBlackMan]

80. +1 ...

"If I stepped to you telling you that guy over there is your best friend and if you don't get in his van, right now, then you don't understand what is best for you ... I'm pretty sure if I stepped to you like that, you wouldn't want to speak to me or that guy, ever again!"

[Gothmog]

120. I also liked that line

How are you doing?

[1StrongBlackMan]

135. Yeah ...

But, here again, people seem to turn off their real life experiences.

I'm doing GREAT ... working insane hours ... But great!

[Gothmog]

146. I have been busy also at work

[1StrongBlackMan]

164. Busy is far better than unemployed due to lack of work! n/t

[aikoaiko]

179. Really? That spoke to you?

How about this...

"hey that guy, he's been helping you for 50 years, but he never made a big deal about it. All those other people telling you he is "not enough" and making it sound like he doesn't even care -- well I think he does. You should talk to him and find out for yourself. But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say"

[1StrongBlackMan]

205. Yes ... That spoke to me ...

"hey that guy, he's been helping you for 50 years, but he never made a big deal about it. All those other people telling you he is "not enough" and making it sound like he doesn't even care -- well I think he does. You should talk to him and find out for yourself. But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say"

That was good ... right up to the:

But if you go up to him and demand that he prove he is your friend when he's talking about something else and he might not know exactly what to say

part.

[sheshe2]

464. Boom!

[aikoaiko]

528. Is that your head exploding?

[sheshe2]

529. No, not me.

Yet I thank you for your concern.

[Armstead]

601. "We're GONNA SHUT YOU DOWN!!!"

I wouldn't know what to say if two people jumped in front of m and started shouting that kind of crap in my face either.

I think most people would be non-plussed by that, including Hilary and O'Malley.

[1StrongBlackMan]

604. I'm not talking about Bernie or BLM. n/t

[George II]

391. The only thing wrong with that is that he has NOT "been helping you for 50 years"

[okasha]

419. Exactly.

He's been invisible as far as the LGBT rights movement is concerned. First Nations seem not to exist for him except as a bullet on his bucket list. (But he did vote for the defense spending bill that handed over sacred Apache lands to a foreign mining corporation. Maybe the Apache need to follow the Navajo example and apply the McCain solution.) Women's healthcare? Negotiable, if he's talking to a largely male audience.

No skin in the game.

[druidity33]

508. I thought he was one of the 1st

mayors in the country to sign off on a Pride parade... i think he even declared a gay pride day, 1985 or something as mayor of Burlington. Helped fund many local initiatives in the 80's for LGBT youth in Vermont. My understanding is he also has a had a long-standing positive relationship with the first peoples in the NorthEast.

[okasha]

544. That's nice.

Burlington is a sprawling metropolis of 43,000 people, and a "gay pride day or something" is pretty underwhelming.

The First Nations population of Vermont is less than half of 1%, maybe 300 people. It's a homogenized milk-white state.

I'd be far more impressed if Sanders had done something more recent and more visible. Oh, wait, he has. He voted to turn over the Apache's sacred land at Oak Flat, AZ, to Resolution Mining, Inc.

[druidity33]

561. It was 1983...

here's a link:

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/06/30/32-years-before-scotus-decision-sanders-backed-gay-pride-march

and yeah.... that IS nice.

Any other candidate supporting gay rights in 1983?

As for First Peoples, you know Vermont is contiguous with a few other states. I happen to know he has visited the Cattaraugus res before and has met with their elders. He has helped win recognition for smaller tribes in the area as well...

[AlbertCat]

632. I thought he was one of the 1st

mayors in the country to sign off on a Pride parade... i think he even declared a gay pride day, 1985 or something as mayor of Burlington.


He was.

He does.

Just because some people don't know what they are talking about....

[aikoaiko]

531. You should read what he was saying 40 yeas ago about gay rights.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/bernie-sanders-was-full-gay-equality-40-years-ago

[okasha]

543. That's nice.

Unfortunately, decriminalizing homosexuality is hardly a clarion call for LGBT civil rights, still less for equal marriage. That's doubly true when it's only one of a list of unrelated items, including adultery, drugs, abortion and "etc," whatever "etc." might be.

If this is what is being claimed as "supporting gay marriage for 40 years," the claim is, er, BS.

[AlbertCat]

633. Unfortunately, decriminalizing homosexuality is hardly a clarion call for LGBT civil rights,

It was back then.


He is WAY ahead of Clinton on civil rights.


Too bad you are wrong.... so often...

[okasha]

643. Nope.

He carefully buried his whispered call for decriminalizing homosexuality in a list of other behaviors deemed "immoral."

The clarion call was sounded at Stonewall several years earlier, and when Anita Bryant began her witch hunt, followed by the HIV/AIDS epidemic, we LGBT's were pretty much on our own. Bernie was nowhere to be seen or heard. A short letter to a minor paper in a remote state gets no points.

[aikoaiko]

530. I guess it depends on the definition of "you"

This alternet piece covers some of the major Civil Rights stances over 50 years which includes standing up for black, brown, LGBT, and women's issues.

http://web.alternet.org/election-2016/20-examples-bernie-sanders-powerful-record-civil-and-human-rights-1950s

Here are the first 4:
Here are 20 ways Sanders has stood up for civil and minority rights, starting in the early 1950s up to the present year.

1. Raising Money For Korean Orphans: International solidarity was an unusual concept for any American to have in the 1950s, let alone a high school student. But one of Sanders' first campaigns was to run for class president at James Madison High School in New York City. His platform was based around raising scholarship funds for Korean war orphans. Although he lost, the person who did win the campaign decided to endorse Sanders' campaign, and scholarships were created.

2. Being Arrested For Desegregation: As a student at the University of Chicago, Sanders was active in both the Congress on Racial Equality (CORE) and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). In 1962, he was arrested for protesting segregation in public schools in Chicago; the police came to call him an outside agitator, as he went around putting up flyers around the city detailing police brutality.

3. Marching In March On Washington:Sanders joined the mega-rally called by the leaders of the civil rights movement, a formative event of his youth.

4. Calling For Full Gay Equality: 40 years ago, Sanders started his political life by running with a radical third party in Vermont called the Liberty Union Party. As a part of the platform, he called for abolishing all laws related to discrimination against homosexuality.

If you read the article you see more examples that show a pattern of supporting civil rights long before it became safer to do so.

And here is a video where Bernie speaks about his ideas on racial justice the night BEFORE the Netroots Nation protesters.

[davidpdx]

566. Why bother trying to argue with people like that when they give you the

fuck you attitude. It's amusing that they squeal like children when anything is said about Hillary Clinton and then they do the same. Hypocrites.............

[cloudbase]

610. The results are in.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

What a truly nasty post. Posts were hidden in this thread that were far less offensive than this.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Aug 18, 2015, 02:57 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If this post gets hidden, it won't be because of me, regardless of whether or not previous posts in this thread have been hidden.

It's politics, and there is a tendency to get a little passionate at times.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is nasty, but aikoaiko is, in fact, responding to posters who are devising tests for Bernie that are not possible for him to pass as they do not give two bits about the facts. Whether George II, okasha or others like it or not, Senator Sanders has been supporting civil rights since Hillary, in a youthful indiscretion, was a Goldwater girl. LEAVE IT.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[davidpdx]

639. Thanks for posting that

Not surprising at all.

[Spazito]

97. Now, HE is a supporter Senator Sanders would be proud to have in his court, imo...

He 'gets it'!

Thanks for posting this, it is a must-watch, imo.

[seabeyond]

130. +1. but then, i have heard the same from a handful of sanders supporters on du, i respect so

i may hold other positions and i am gonna express those other opinions. respectfully. but the best, is sanders supporters that disagree with me, even strongly. respectfully. in just a handful of months the primary is gonna be over. there are a lot of sanders supporters i have respected, admired, valued and appreciated for a decade. i would hate to lose that over a couple months of disagreement.

[Spazito]

145. Senator Sanders has some wonderful, respectful supporters here for sure...

Unfortunately for them, they are too often drowned out by others whose behavior is detrimental to both the candidate and the campaign. Hopefully it will die down sooner rather than later.

[aikoaiko]

162. Jay Smooth on HRC's last run: "If you were going to make you would have by now"

to be continued, indeed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

475. What does that video have to do with the legitimate concerns sonderwoman raised?

It seems you casually dismissed her as she was unworthy of serious attention. It is that air of easy condescension and effortless dehumanization that has brought us to where we are now.

Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man' beckons.

[aikoaiko]

481. I thought this is the subthread where we post stupid JaySmooth videos because she did.

[Number23]

319. "Someone needs to defend Bernie Sanders... FROM HIS OWN SUPPORTERS"

FUCK. YES!!!!!!!!

Adding this dude to the long, long, LOOOOOOOOONG line of people who see the damage these people are doing and have had an absolute GUT FULL.

Sanders needs to get a hold on these people yesterday. They are a poison to his campaign and are really starting to overshadow his message entirely.

[randys1]

388. No fucking shit. I have sat here watching so called supporters of my guy, Bernie,

act in such a counterproductive way, and after this is pointed out to them OVER AND OVER again, they DOUBLE DOWN!

Jesus.

H.

Christ.

[Number23]

420. "and after this is pointed out to them OVER AND OVER again, they DOUBLE DOWN!"

Yep. It is HYSTERICAL!!!!!!

And they actually think that shutting everybody up that calls them out is the solution, instead of actually STOPPING this insane, counter productive and straight up deranged behavior. In their heads, everybody is out to get them and to get Bernie. And they refuse to believe or to understand that right now, the worse thing Sanders has going for him... is THEM.

The repeated calling out of their destructive behaivor by liberals, progressives, black, white and everything in between is just "some pro-Hillary talking point" (according to the more clueless among them) that they have decided they don't have to listen to as they continue to haunt the steps of everybody who disagrees with them ESPECIALLY if the person doing so is blessed with melanin. But we're not supposed to notice that, I guess.

[Number23]

323. Oh my God!! He actually said "What have you done for me lately??!"He must have read my OP

in the AA forum a few months ago!!!

SonderWoman, I would be so appreciative if you posted this video in the AA forum. It would be a welcome addition there. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1187

Wonder if the crowd that still refers to the fairly universal castigation of Sanders unhinged and unproductive supporters as "talking points" still believes that they are? Oh, who am I kidding. Of COURSE they do!!

[lunasun]

329. He is right. The supporters remind of that bumper sticker I see Oh Lord save me from your followers

His supporters have turned me off completely and I won't be back for a second look.
The BLM action from Sanders came too late and his supporters are not people I would want to be associated with.

[immoderate]

602. Bernie's supporters prevent you from voting in your own interests?

--imm

[bobbobbins01]

461. Uh huh, but Hillary's folks are just as open minded as they come

Anytime some Hillary supporter accuses a Bernie supporter of being racist, the appropriate response is this:

[SonderWoman]

5. He's great at identifying obvious problems, not so great at...

Providing any solutions to fix those problems other than taxing people. Which is probably why he hasn't released any policy documents.

[JDPriestly]

305. Bill Clinton was in the White House for 8 years. Hillary was with him.

They offered no solutions for these problems either. In fact, their tenure in the White House worsened a lot of situations.

And then after their tenure in the White House, they further shined up to people like Pete Peterson, major foe of Social Security. Bernie wants to raise the cap to pay for strengthening and expanding Social Security. As a retired person who has a lot of friends who are retired, I can tell you that 401(K)s are not where it is at for insuring the survival of people past the retirement age. Social Security is. It is reliable and although it pays very little, it means survival to the large majority of us. For many older people, it is their only income. And as world trade expands and swallows up the best paying jobs in America, the pittance that Social Security pays its recipients is going to mean the difference between food on the table or an empty stomach for many, many seniors. Hillary is weak on Social Security. Watch her response to Obama when he suggested raising the cap in the 2008 debates. She is way out of touch with the reality of seniors in America. Sanders is not out of touch.

Hillary does not get the big bucks for speaking to wealthy and corporate America for nothing. She is talking to the investor class for those big bucks. They know what they are buying when they pay her. I want someone who owes me favors, not someone who owes favors to Goldman Sachs.

I want Bernie Sanders. And so do a number of Americans like me.

Democrats in Congress need to learn on which side their voters' bread is buttered (and had better worry about whether it is being buttered). They need to stop worrying about Wall Street and the corporations and start worrying about Main Street and the American people.

It is not the job of us the voters, the people, to vote for a president that members of Congress and our party leaders like. It is the job of the members of Congress and the leaders of our party to support the president we like and elect.

Let's get our shoes on the right feet here. Congress serves us, not the corproations. That is, the members of Congress who want to be re-elected serve us and not them, not the corporations and the party elite.

Free college tuition.

As for the damage that a tax to fund college would do to 401(K)s? That is the concern only of people who have 401(K)s. The damage that greedy managers of 401(K) accounts do to your 401(K) should be of greater concern than the cost of a few pennies of tax per trade to fund your kids' college educations.

In the sum of things, it is probably cheaper to pay the tax and get free college. Someone needs to do the math, but be my guest. I like the idea of taxing Wall Street trades to fund free college for the next generation.

Many wealthy people take the money they make on Wall Street and set up trusts to fund their grandchildren's education. Why don't we do that as a nation? Isn't that what investment is about, putting money aside to fund a better future? So people who have money in the stock market take home a little less in order to put money in trust for other people's hard-working talented children. What is wrong with that idea? I really like it.

401(K)s are the domain of people making way over the minimum wage or even the average or median wage and a tax on them should be imposed to help pay for college.

We need higher capital gains taxes, not lower ones.

Here is the system we now have.

After high school (whether completed or not), young people go to university, technical schools, junior colleges, the military, straight to work or remain unemployed on the streets.

Most of those who attend post-secondary schools whether university, technical, or some sort of college graduate in debt. The interest rate varies from maybe 3% to 7 1/2 or 8 1/2 % (what I paid for one of my post graduate degrees). The debt adds up. If your parents aren't wealthy or at least middle class and you become a doctor, you graduate with enormous debt. If you graduate to become a teacher, your debt is very great compared to the income you will likely earn. Same for nurses, for technical jobs, same for all professions, all lines of work.

The weight of that college tuition, trade school tuition, post-high school tuition is weighing down our economy. It is preventing young people from being able to take jobs that help society but don't pay premium salaries. It is preventing young people from being able to have children and buy houses and live their lives.

Meanwhile the already rich are doing very well. As the interest paid on student loans flows into the general fund with tax revenue, Congress has voted to lower the taxes on the very, very rich. In effect, students whose families cannot afford to send them to college, are being asked to fund tax breaks for corporations and the very rich. I'm agin' that. I'm ain' it and there is no excuse for it.

Bernie tells us what the unemployment rates are for young people. Around 50% for young Americans who are identified as Black. That is horrendous. The justice issues that are killing POC and destroying their lives need to be dealt with as the most urgent and most serious of our issues, but the economic issues that lead to masses of Black people, especially men, who are homeless and jobless, hopeless and prison-bound are long-term issues that need to be dealt with.

The Clintons were in the White House for 8 years. Bill Clinton set up a commission to study race issues. Why has so little, next to nothing, changed when of the past 22-23 years, Third Way Democrats who claim to prioritize social issues have been in the White House? Why are we still talking about police brutality when we have a Black president in the White House?

Maybe it is because we have not dealt with the long-range economic issues and have not really tackled the tough social issues.

I do not deny that the social issues are very important. Bernie acknowledges that. There is nothing new in saying that. The justice system needs to be changed to insure that our police do not profile people based on race and do not think or feel that they have a license to harass, jail or kill people based on race or neighborhood.

LGBT issues are being dealt with as society changes its attitude toward LGBTs. That is not the problem of the moment. That will take a little time, but not much. The anti-LGBT crowd is literally dying out as I write. But the LGBT marriage issue was based on the precedent that marriage is a fundamental right and not on whether being LGBT triggers discrimination issues, whether LGBT status is immutable, is part of our birthright. There is a lot of work to do on that. But Bernie was in favor of recognizing the equal rights against discrimination for LGBT people long before Hillary broached the topic. And again, what did the Clintons do about LGBT rights during their time in the White House? Wasn't it during those years that the Defense of Marriage Act passed?

We have undergone an enormous technological revolution. It is comparable to the revolution we underwent in the late 19th century, the industrial revolution.

As then, the new technologies, the new production methods worked havoc on old labor/management and other economic relationships. As then, it took a social revolution, then the populist movement, to deal with the new technological reality and the effect on that technological revolution on families, on the workplace, on society as a whole.

Bernie is calling for that social revolution. Will it improve the lives of LGBT people, of people of color, the world, when it achieves its goals? Yes. It will.

As I posted elsewhere, I really don't get out a lot, but in the last few weeks, I have talked at length with 3 or 4 people of the limited number of people with whom I have talked who are scared, really scared of losing their jobs and their livelihoods. Two of the three are relatively young and have children. The third is an upper middle-aged single woman moving toward the end of her working career but not yet ready either financially or in any other way, to retire. (At this time, that, I believe is when you are most likely to lose a job. I don't have numbers on it, but I think the people in their late 40s through early 60s are most vulnerable to being fired right now. It is absolutely shameful that that is so.)

People are scared for their work because their work means survival. And their work, no matter how much they complain about it, gives meaning to their lives.

The TPP is going to displace yet another large slice of the workforce. And, no, I disagree with the OP. We do not have to go there. We do not have to agree to the kind of plundering of our economy that international trade now brings with it. We can have international trade without plunder. The international trade we now have is being and has been negotiated by corporations and their purchased spokespeople in Congress and in the administration.

Bernie has other plans for the inevitable move toward an international economy. I am solidly with Bernie on this issue. No to the TPP courts. Americans do not realize what those courts will mean to our nation. National parks anyone? I can readily envision scenarios under which corporations could force us to pay manifold just to be able to keep our national parks from them. And that is just one of many horrors that the TPP and even the existing international courts could impose on us. We do not want or need the TPP. We should not accept the imposition of TPP courts.

We cannot at this time afford to expand out involvement in international trade. That is not my opinion. One glance at our balance of trade deficit tells us that, no, we are not competing and we cannot compete at this time.

What do we need to compete in the global economy?

A better educated, better trained workforce?

A national strategy to compete that is decided upon through truly democratic means?

A government that is not bought out by corporations and Wall Street and big hedge funds?

I answer yes to these four key questions. So does Bernie.

Bill and Hillary Clinton had their four years. Bill signed NAFTA, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the Welfare Reform Act and a draconian bill on crime that has resulted in our having the largest percentage of prisoners of any country in the world.

The passage of NAFTA brought with it some sort of re-education legislation. Obviously, considering, as Bernie points out, that real unemployment is high in our country, that re-education legislation did not accomplish much. We do not need to allow corporations to sell more of our jobs to the lowest bidder. We need to stay away from agreements that give us no case-by-case right to turn down offers of free trade, to refuse to trade if the trade does not serve our national interests. What a bunch of hogwash the corporations are selling us when they speak to us of free trade.

And then we get to environmental issues. Had the Clinton administration done its job, we would have far more solar panels, a lot more alternative energy than we have today. The Clintons are not the answer when it comes to environmental issues. Hillary even refuses to offer her opinion or answer a question about the XL pipeline near one of our most important aquifers. On that basis alone, she is unqualified to be the Democratic nominee for president.

Considering the record of the first Clinton administration, I certainly do not trust either of the Clintons with the leadership and representation of the US right now. No thanks.

[ismnotwasm]

316. Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

[Doctor_J]

367. because the PUMAS claim she was co-president

[seabeyond]

389. you are gonna have to start using puma for sander supporters. i have not seen one clinton supporter

say that they would not vote for sanders. i have seen many sanders supporters claim, state, insist and argue they will NEVER vote for clinton.

that would make those sander supporters.... your PUMAs.

point the finger the other way, dude.

[randys1]

393. Ding Ding Ding, you get the cookie for today

[Doctor_J]

396. But the hillarians invented that term for themselves. as for your first sentence,

did you not read this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251524362

[seabeyond]

401. doesnt matter. it was a small group and had to do with a whole lot of other. you applying it to

anyone supporting clinton is a fail. it was about not voting obama. shoe is on the other foot. so we will just use the term by the definition as it applies to sanders supporters.

you a puma?

[brooklynite]

424. The PUMAs were an inconsequential handful of chest-thumpers who didn't live up to their threat...

...and neither with the "I'll never vote for Hillary" brigaed.

[seabeyond]

428. personally, i didnt pay attention in '08. supporting obama. doctorj though likes using it repeatedly

to insult ALL clinton supporters and i call bullshit. it would be sander supporters wearing that label in 2016,, if he really sees fit to continue throwing it around as if he is insulting a whole camp of supporters.

i am really clueless why he thinks he is being clever. i have been seeing him use it for a couple months. with hides. yet no desire to stop throwing it all kinds of people.

[artislife]

439. You don't remember them?

I still have nightmares....

[seabeyond]

442. no. i did not pay much attention to the drama and trauma of your puma that shakes you in your boots

[artislife]

458. Oh I thought you followed the election nt

[seabeyond]

460. i did. puma was insignificant.

[saturnsring]

408. Hillarians lol

[YOHABLO]

556. Oh please, like we'd vote for Scott Walker? Come on, too much is at risk, as usual for Dems.

I will gladly vote for Hillary, but right now I lend my support for Sanders. We're not stupid.

[seabeyond]

559. Good for you. Reason. I love it. Most of the sanders supporters feel

The same as you exactly for your reasons. I am omalley and not looking like he has a chance. I will enthusiastically support whatever dem. unfortunately too many sanders supporters declare they refuse to vote clinton. I agree with your assessment of that thinking

[aikoaiko]

478. "two for the price of one" was their calling card.

I see a lot of HRC supporters talking about her experiences as FLOTUS as part of her overall credentials for POTUS. You can't have it both ways and try to distance her from those years, too.

[JDPriestly]

487. Because the OP talks about why the author supports Hillary rather than Bernie.

Hillary Clinton claims as experience her time in the White House.

Well, the Clinton administration may have been better than a Republican administration would have been -- but not by much.

We had a dot.com boom and then the bust came just about when Bush came into office. Bush made it millions of times worse than it needed to be, but we were already having economic problems thanks to Bill Clinton's and Greenspan's allowing the economy to run amok during Clinton's administration.

Booms feel great. It's like not taking your blood pressure meds if you have high blood pressure. You think you have a lot of energy. In fact that energy is taxing your heart. That was the problem with the dot-com boom. Thanks to the repeal of Glass-Steagall that slight recession and the Bush response to it and to the excesses in the markets threw our entire economy out of balance.

Bill Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall. The photo of the signing is a picture of greed.

[druidity33]

511. That's all you got out of that? nt.

[calimary]

345. Very good point.

Yes he can identify obvious problems, but I find myself tempted to call him a "Johnny One Note."

GRANTED - many of his declarations on the economy make some pretty good sense, but just boiling every problem down to economics simply doesn't cover it. I seriously doubt that the greatest job with the best pay and benefits and even job security would NOT help a Black mother whose precious teenage son came home to her in a box, thanks to police brutality or gun violence.

[Romulox]

6. Weak sauce. Might as well just call him "too extreme!!11!!!" nt

[MaggieD]

13. I don't believe I listed "too extreme" as a reason

So why don't you just deal with the actual reasons I articulated?

[Romulox]

16. It was the gravamen of your post. As another poster mentioned, "you got yours, so...meh." nt

[ismnotwasm]

28. I wouldn't pay too much attention

And as far as your question, you'll be waiting a while.

[Picking Dem]

363. Your glaring denial that Bernie is a Democrat

He may not be a Democrat, but he sure as hell espouses true Democratic values.

Clinton is just a weathervane and will end up losing the primary after people realize that Bernie is a better candidate.

[MaggieD]

370. Then why does he have zero support

From the Dem caucus in his run for president? Sorry, you don't get to diss a group for 25 years and then expect support from them.

[Picking Dem]

375. Ever seen the Congressional approval

Let Congress back a loser, and then realize that they are making a mistake after the debates. They will then change their endorsement to the right candidate.

Right now, Congress does not want to piss off the all-powerful Clinton/DLC/Third Way machine. I say primary them and replace them with one of the progressives that have signed on to the Bernie campaign - that will HELP the people, not the corporations.

[frylock]

440. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Clinton's come to Jesus meeting with the Dems a few weeks back.

[1StrongBlackMan]

485. LOL ... How effective would that meeting have been ...

If those Democrats had thought Bernie had a prayer of winning the Democratic nomination?

[frylock]

496. I suspect there will be a lot of praying after that first debate..

probably some soul searching as well.

[1StrongBlackMan]

489. What is particularly telling is the lack of endorsements out of the Progressive Caucus. n/t

[Picking Dem]

499. Considering that Bernie is the founder of that caucus

tells me that those who are "progressives" are not really progressives but play one on TV.

[1StrongBlackMan]

510. LOL ... Really?

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

The Progressive Caucus isn't really Progressive?



This is bordering on tragic!

[Gothmog]

123. Has Sanders got any of his key proposals enacted into law?

Becoming POTUS would not give Sanders any sort of magic wand to accopmplish his agenda

[Romulox]

155. We know one major law Hillary helped enact: the Iraq War Resolution. nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

304. Keystone, banks,

I wonder where she is on the Iran agreement.

Let me guess. She will straddle the fence, neither supporting it nor attacking it, until all the polling is done.

[Thinkingabout]

314. There was only one Congressional member who voted Nay on

AUMF, Authorization Use Military Force and that was Barbara Lee, this was the funding and authorization of military force. The IWR was instructions for Bush to follow but he ordered the inspectors out before the inspection was completed. Yes Bernie helped to enact the AUMF.

[AtomicKitten]

538. IWR aka AUMF = the same vote.

The IWR, formerly called the Authorization to use Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, is the same goddamn vote, yet you continue to disseminate the lie repeatedly here. Speaks volumes about both you and your candidate.

[Recursion]

648. I'll disagree with MaggieD on that, he's gotten some good amendments passed

In particular his FQHC expansion in ACA was a great piece of legislation.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

7. Got it.

Once I had made it career wise (economically)

You already got yours.

[MaggieD]

10. Yeah, I "got mine" and waited another 15 years for a smattering of civil rights

And, IN ADDITION, I helped others up the ladder. I own a very progressive company that is rooted in the values of treating workers well.

But hey, just because you know nothing about me, and the work I have done for liberal causes, and the values that I live everyday (using my economic success), don't let that stop you from basically calling me a republican. That's just what Bernie supporters do. I get it. See item #4 in my post.

[Romulox]

11. The important thing is to pull up that ladder! Let's defend the haves against the have nots! nt

[MaggieD]

34. Excellent example of why Bernie supporters are such a turn off

I actually said just the opposite of what you are implying I said. But you have no qualms at all about ignoring that, and trying to pretend I said something different than I actually said. SMH.

[Romulox]

75. You were never amenable to Bernie's message. Yours is a series of excuses for doing

what you intended to do all along.

[MaggieD]

168. How do you know?

And why is it seem like a good idea to so many Bernie supporters do diss people that don't support him? That is the hall mark of his campaign thanks to his supporters. And the first thing many people think of when his name is mentioned at this point. Clearly most of you don't seem to understand that.

I don't see HRC or O'Malley or supporters of any other candidate for the Dem nomination doing that. I don't understand why so many of you think its okay to attack supporters of other candidates. Not a winning strategy, as you will see with PoC and other minorities if he does manage to get the nomination.

[roomtomove]

211. HUH?

Weren't you just dissing Bernie and his supporters??????????

[MaggieD]

222. I am stating what you apparently cannot see

The elitism and stank of white privilege that emanates from so many that cheer him is a total turn off. I have not personally attacked anyone. I am speaking up about a group think and how they strike me as the furthest thing from progressive I have seen since the 2004 election where so-called liberals threw LGBT people under the bus.

[Romulox]

228. Hillary is one of the most privileged white people in America. As are many of her supporters. nt

[ismnotwasm]

235. And Sanders demographic is?

What exactly?

[MaggieD]

244. All white people are privileged

You apparently don't actually understand the concept of white privilege. A lot of his supporters don't seem to understand the concept.

Maybe this will help:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67904-how-to-explain-white-privilege-exists-7-common-arguments-debunked

[saturnsring]

416. Maybe they just don't agree

Seems like every time one disagrees with another they are accused of not getting or obviously they didn't read it or there's an attack on reading comprehension

[unapatriciated]

574. I'm a Bernie supporter and so is my

my daughter, her wife, my disabled son and many of their friends. None of us are "so-called liberals". I was speaking out for equal rights long before 2004. I saw many on this very board who supported Clinton and than Obama, tell our gay brothers and sisters to sit down, shut up and wait when it came to equal rights (I still campaigned and voted for Obama). When it came to ACA and I spoke about my concerns. I was called names told it was too complicated for me to understand. Yes I was too naive and stupid to understand something I had been dealing with since 1991. I had been fighting insurance companies for over a decade to get health care for my fully insured child. I fought to get laws passed in California (1994) regarding fair claims practices and pre-exisisting clauses. Yet I was told to shut up and sit down on this board by Obama supporters (I still supported and voted for Obama a second time).

My point is you will find supporters no matter who they support state things that are mean and sometimes downright nasty. If this affects your support than so be it. I think it is possible to support Clinton without denigrating a man who has spent a life time working for the people not the corporations. I also think it is possible to support Sanders without denigrating Clinton. Pointing out policy difference and how they stood on issues is not bashing.

Statements like your's below is the same as what fox has been saying for years with their "some people say" meme. I have seen this from both camps, we are hurting both candidates and our party when we do this. One will be our nominee, we will all be needed to support and get out the vote to keep the White House.

"The elitism and stank of white privilege that emanates from so many that cheer him is a total turn of."

[El Shaman]

270. Good one!!

[Romulox]

225. Because the notion that you gave up caring about inequality because of some rude tweets is absurd.

[MaggieD]

257. Huh? I have spent 15 years advocating for civil rights

Not just for myself as an LGBT person, but in somewhat understanding the problems other minorities face, which is actually much worse than that faced by LGBT people because of their ability to pass.

Most of my beloved "progressive" brethren just don't get what it is like to live a life as a second class citizen. And I get that many have no concept because they have not experienced it, but the problem is they can't even be bothered to sit down and think about what it would be like to live under racism and discrimination their whole life. And apparently think it's "impolite" for those under constant attack to speak up or interrupt. It is beyond fucking clueless, IMO.

So your comments/personal attack on me are absurd.

[intheflow]

299. What a broad, sweeoping statement.

"Most of my beloved "progressive" brethren just don't get what it is like to live a life as a second class citizen."

I'm sure met a representative sample of all the progressives in the country.

Look, you say you were closeted for many years. You just assume other white people aren't closeted? There's plenty of second-class citizenry to go around: gender, economic, religious, physical, and psychological problems can all be closeted, and just about everyone I know is stuggling with something they think they need to keep secret in order to get a job or stay in the good graces of family. You are making broad generalizations, not extending the very acceptance you have wanted during your own struggles. Remember that often the loudest voices are from minority populations - and by minority, I'm speaking about a small sample of the populace, not gender, race, or religion. This is especially true on the Internet.

[MaggieD]

308. I call them as I see them

And what I see is a pervasive attempt by Bernie supporters to throw PoC under the bus just like so called liberals did to GLBT people back in 2004. Sorry you haven't noticed. You may want to look again. I am hardly the first one to point this out.

And by the way, my son attended the rally in Seattle. He was disgusted by the crowd. Apparently I raised him right.

[intheflow]

330. Thanks for proving my point by making a broad assumption about me. n/t

[MaggieD]

333. All I said about YOU was that you weren't paying attention

It's up to you, personally, to decide if you are with the white privileged elitists that have been dissing BLM. I don't have any idea if you are part of that crowd, and said nothing to even hint that you are. I have no idea.

[Picking Dem]

360. Your son should be disgusted at the protesters

for interrupting an important message.

[OilemFirchen]

498. Welcome back.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Gman]

95. I'm with you.

I'd have to get a personal phone call from Sanders explaining why he is not like his supporters before I'd even consider him.

As for POC, Sanders' supporters have poisoned the well so badly with POC any chance he ever had of getting their votes is gone for good.

And before anyone retorts he is getting POC support, one or two POC at his rallys does not constitute growing support.

[Picking Dem]

108. Air Porcine Flight #B-3RNI3 Reporting that we're seeing other porcine flying

on any chance for Clinton to secure the nomination.

[daybranch]

142. Bernie is us, we are him.

He says what most Americans already believe. As for policies we recognize he has values which will determine those policies and those values are the same as ours. Hillary continues to look untrustworthy, not because of her positions on issues. we realize she can write policies but we fundamentally do not agree that her policies will help our people and as far as Glass-Streagall, Elizabeth Warren who also spoke out for the people wants to do this to avoid risk. We like Warren and we trust her more than Hillary. so when you tell us, Hillary is right on opposing re-instituting Glass-Streagall in a very complicated area, we trust Warren , an economic progressive is right and Hillary is wrong. As far as being a democrat, I am a lifelong democrat and I regularly diss democrats when I feel we do not support the people. Warren is trusted. Bernie is trusted. Sherrod Brown is trusted. Hillary when she takes a different position on the issues from these three trusted progressives, is of course not trusted.
I do not need you to tell me about Glass Streagall, the Keystone Pipeline, Cap and Trade, or the TransPacificPartnership, I already have trusted individuals who have told me.
You Hillary folks do not get it. The progressive revolution is on. The class struggle that Obama avoided is on. Main Stream Media does not want to televise it, but will when we win. we are fanatics for the people. Now why do you suppose Hillary supporters are so quiet? It certainly ain't good will or a fair fight they want. They want to silence the people and Hillary is seen negatively for her unwillingness to call for more debates? What are you people afraid of? Lets debate.

[MaggieD]

180. He is not ME by ANY means

I actually understand that economic justice does not equal social justice because I have lived it, and if I didn't know that his heart is in the right place I would really loathe him for that stubborn idea. As it is, I think he's just another clueless old white man. And not just on that issue, but on most issues. IMO.

Again, rah, rah, that he is articulating the problems (just like every other Dem candidate). But his policy proposals show he has no clue. IMO, he is fooling a lot of under informed people. And even if he did have a clue he has shown he has no ability to build a homogenous coalition needed to make change.

[Gman]

356. Nah,

You're not gonna change my mind and vice versa.

[frylock]

448. Of course, Clinton was always leading the fight for your civil rights.

[NanceGreggs]

9. Very well articulated.

And I agree on all points.

Were BS the nominee, I would vote for him ONLY to keep the WH out of Republican hands, and for no other reason.

[roguevalley]

76. you say this about Bernie which implies he has no specifics:

I actually want to start calling him Captain Obvious, because he seems to be stuck on telling us what the problems are over and over and over again.

Then you say this about HRC without specifics:

HRC gets it. We need to find a way to beef up schools in urban areas with programs like head start and better funding. They should not take funding away from failing schools, they should increase it. Bernie seems oblivious to this.

I think bernie is aware of it. How does she get it? Where are her details? Odd OP to me,

[NanceGreggs]

85. I think you've replied to me by mistake ...

... and meant to reply to the OP.

[MaggieD]

184. The post was already quite long....

But anyone who truly follows politics knows that HRC has incorporated very specific policy proposals on issues of race into her platform since she was in the WH with Bill. That's why she has so much support from the black community.

I know it's popular to say that black voters are just uninformed, but that is not true. It's just a back handed way of calling them stupid (see video above) for supporting her.

[seabeyond]

12. i agree with number 1.

he is totally obtuse to the unlevel playing field and shows repeatedly in the plans he has come up with.

and clintons economic speech.plan had me researching the whole glass steagal. uninformed, i just went along with sanders. informed changed the whole picture.

went right back to the dumb economic equality talking point. You know why? Because that is what Bernie truly believes.

i agree. and even now, to this day, asked about his campaign his first and only inclination is to say he is reaching out to working and middle class. ie, whites.

all his supporters like to rally around to prove he is some sort of civil rights champion have said that even back then he was convinced racial injustice was really rooted in classism.

yes. there is the difference of people that do not hear what he is saying, and those of us that DO listen to sanders and believe what he is saying.

2. i agree with this and it is very important and should be important to all of us. i too have concluded that he does not listens, he tells. clinton the opposite. listens, processes and speaks. omalley also.

3. again, i agree. an independent using the democratic party. in 1990 he made a deal with democratic party not to run a viable candidate so he could win, and he would give the democrats his vote. is that being bought?

4. he is reaching out to working class and middle class of the democratic, republican, independent, teabaggin', populist and libertarian parties. ya... not really the democratic base.

i agree with your post. very much exactly where i am sitting.

[bobbobbins01]

477. Anytime you'd like to discuss the finer points of glass steagal...

I'll be happy to show you in great detail the amount of damage its repeal has done. Clinton just pulled the band aid off, it had already been defanged long before he got to it. We need it back in its entirety.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Opinions differ.

I like Bernie. I like it because he's a Socialist and not the usual run of ambitious politicians. He's not locked in to nice safe Politics-as-usual and may well do some things to change the corrupt system that is now politics in America. Maybe/Maybe not.

I don't see Hillary as likely to do anything to change the system she now wants the job of supervising.

I'll vote for Bernie.

I won't vote for Hillary.

[tecelote]

47. I agree.

I suspect Hillary is talking to the polls. Bernie has been living this. He's talking from the heart. I trust him to do his best.

[Dawgs]

17. Pathetic and disgusting.

It's shit like this that make me feel sad for this country.

[ismnotwasm]

25. Shit like what?

An opinion?

[1StrongBlackMan]

70. LOL ... Stop it! ...

I had to dry off my keyboard before I was able to type again.

[ismnotwasm]

176. Heh!

[NCTraveler]

18. He has been an activist and supporter of causes for his whole adult life.

He is attempting to transition into a leader. That is the "trust me" aspect of his change that many are having a hard time swallowing. The most interesting aspect is that he is campaigning as an activist. I think it is risky but we all get to watch and see how it will go.

[ismnotwasm]

33. This is true

He is steadfast, and we shall see

[Broward]

20. I suspect that Bernie just isn't conservative (or Republican) enough for you.

[MaggieD]

40. You suspect wrong

I have never voted for a republican in my life. And I am as liberal as they come. Being liberal doesn't require me to vote for Bernie. I have articulated exactly why I don't support him, and none of them has to do with wanting conservative policy enacted.

In fact, I think a vote for Bernie pretty much ensures we make NO progress on liberal issues.

[Bubzer]

317. Huh.

"I think a vote for Bernie pretty much ensures we make NO progress on liberal issues." - I don't see how anyone could say that about either Hillary or Bernie with any sense of reasonability. Neither individual is even close to being on-par with the GOP...and that's about what it would take to make no progress on liberal issues. Regardless of who makes it to the Whitehouse, it'll take support to get anything done. Bernie rightly stated that you could have the best president ever in office, and they will never accomplish much without the support of the American people.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

322. you display a sad and scary lack of economic knowledge

especially about the banking industry.

That's OK. Many people are ignorant about many subjects. But they don't make baseless claims like you did.

When Clinton helped destroy our economy with his deregulation of Wall, he set into motion a series of events that continue to harm us. Banks used to have limitations that prevented fraud, scandal, and theft. Glass Steagall's demise was one of several factors that have led to the destruction of the middle class. It barred any one bank from acting as a commercial bank, as well as an investment bank,even as an insurance company. Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, signed into law by Bill Clinton, allowed commercial AND investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to become one. Even worse, that law prevented the SEC from regulating or even investigation bank holding companies.

The AIG fiasco is a prime example of the mess Bill created (which Hillary supports). Briefly, in most cases of insurance, an insurer underwrites and rates its risk, say on house fire losses. It knows that one out of 100 houses will burn down in any year. So, it charges its 100 customers enough to pay for that loss, plus overhead, salaries, profit, etc. THAT money is set aside as a "reserve." When the loss comes, the insurer has enough money stored away to pay for the loss.

Except when AIG insured the gambling on mortgages that was concocted by the likes of GOLD, man Sucks, and other financial giants (made huge by Bill), it NEVER SET ASIDE A SINGLE PENNY FOR RESERVES. Goldman got to say, "Hey, these are insured investments. We have AIG insuring them." AIG got to make incredibly huge profits on this line of business, since it paid nothing into a reserve. AND AIG never bothered to reinsure their own exposure. (Reinsurnace is a way of spreading risk, with other companies buying up part of the risk for a share of the profits) So when the first loss came in, AIG was out in excess of 150 BILLION with no cover, no assets, and no ability to pay. The US came in and bailed them out to the tune of $187 BILLION of taxpayer dollars, meaning that AIG kept its ill-gotten gains, Morgan Stanley was repaid from dollar 1, as was GoldMan Sucks for gambling huge on stuff they knew was going to fail.

All of that fiasco was due to Bill signing that statute into law. And Hillary supported it then, and supports it now. Bernie was one of the lone voices predicting this mess. He was chastised for not being "modern enough" about the world of finance.

[MaggieD]

331. I'm not the one who doesn't understand, clearly

Glass Steagall hadn't been enforced since 1978. You are the one that does not understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

[ChairmanAgnostic]

341. do you understand the term

"deregulation?"

Do you understand the bill that Clinton signed into law, and its impact on America? Obviously not. But, as I said, ignorance is bliss, especially in your list of Bernoise.

[MaggieD]

344. I look at facts

And the facts make it very clear that the repeal of Glass Steagall had nothing to do with the 2008 meltdown. Lehman, not a commercial bank; Country Wide mortgage, not a bank; AIG, not a bank; Merrill Lynch, not a commercial bank; Morgan Stanley, not a commercial bank.

Get it yet?

[uponit7771]

425. Be patient, this is very hard to explain to people... the investment firms BECAME banks so they...

... could get bailout money.

Fargo, Citi, BOA wasn't the central problem, they were part of it but not the lion share

[mother earth]

512. Did you actually read what he wrote? LOL...you need to inform yourself it seems, this isn't solely

about Glass-Steagall, and he explained it very well. Maybe try a re-read?

[dsc]

353. but the clenis went back in time and killed the law

kind of like the terminator.

[Ikonoklast]

362. And you think Hillary, who is to the right of, well, everyone else running for the Democratic

nomination will make more progress on liberal issues.

The Hillary Clinton who voted for war with Iraq.

The Hilary Clinton who is now and always has been at best a Centrist, at worst Third Way Democrat, or Republican Lite.



I personally believe that if Hillary Clinton was a man running on her same record, he would get eaten alive here.

[seabeyond]

395. that is incorrect. she is not right of everyone else running dem.

[Doctor_J]

373. ding!

The PUMAS, dinos, New dems, and so on don't want healthcare, public schools, peace, Pentagon cuts, Medicare expansions, ss expansion, and a $15 minimum wage. They're brainwashed in a similar fashion to Fox nation.

[seabeyond]

398. whose your puma?

[Doctor_J]

406. that's the name that the hillarians made up for themselves eight years ago

I assumed it still applies

[seabeyond]

414. so i ask, are you a puma? will you vote clinton if she wins.

PUMA ("People United Means Action&quot was a political action committee in the United States that opposed the Democratic Party leadership and the nomination of Sen. Barack Obama as the Democratic candidate for President in the 2008 presidential election.[1] PUMA began as an effort of supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton who believed that Clinton should have been the Democratic nominee.[2][3] According to PUMA, "We [were] protesting the 2008 Presidential election because we refuse to support a nominee who was selected by the leadership rather than elected by the voters."[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_United_Means_Action

[Doctor_J]

488. PUMA meant Party Unity My Ass. It was adopted by the Clintonians of 2008 who objected to

an inexperienced black man interrupting that year's coronation. The similarities are striking.

As for voting for Mrs. Clinton, I am leaning toward not. My state is safe anyway. Though I didn't like it, I could shrug off Ms. Johnson storming the stage and assaulting Senator Sanders and bringing a Medicare rally to a premature end, and calling all white liberals "white supremecists". Crackpots gonna crack pots, and sjw's gonna w. But then Mrs. Clinton didn't speak out against it (the way Sanders blasted Trump and the Repukes' sexism toward her). Then she made up a story about meeting with #blm. Then her supporters decided Bernie and his supporters really are white supremecists. I don't want anything to do with such low-lifes.

[seabeyond]

502. "I am leaning toward not." tehn you be the the puma, not all those you accuse of.....

[Doctor_J]

516. In another post in this thread, you explain that

your son switched from Sanders to Clinton in the hope that it might help him score with a female Clinton supporter. So as I said I am not that interested in being a part of her support group. OTOH if they have a falling out, maybe he'll return to voting with his brain instead of....

[seabeyond]

519. wow. why dont you make it as insulting to the girl as you can? no surprise. score? da puma.

[artislife]

436. Well since it now their party

they don't want that kind of talk messing up the numbers....move along, good doctor.

[seabeyond]

441. a HANDFUL of people.... a handful, per a nation.

PUMA ("People United Means Action&quot was a political action committee in the United States that opposed the Democratic Party leadership and the nomination of Sen. Barack Obama as the Democratic candidate for President in the 2008 presidential election. PUMA began as an effort of supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton who believed that Clinton should have been the Democratic nominee. According to PUMA, "We protesting the 2008 Presidential election because we refuse to support a nominee who was selected by the leadership rather than elected by the voters."

yet.... you are now giving it to ANYONE who supports clinton? isnt that like, dishonest, and like, wrong?

[Dawgs]

21. How about you give us some examples of all the racist remarks you see every day.

There should be thousands by now so let's see some of them.

[ismnotwasm]

31. There are and you can look them up yourself

Don't be shy

[Dawgs]

92. Couldn't find any so I guess the OP was wrong.

Thanks for the advice.

[heaven05]

114. you didn't look

and I know why. You are pretty obvious yourself.... Maggie Q, is telling the truth about what is the reality in the BS campaign......lip service, but as the guy in the video said, "what have you done of me lately"?

[Dawgs]

121. I did look, so not obvious.

And why is it so hard for you, MaggieD, or anyone else to give me one example of a Bernie supporter making a racist remark? According to her it should be the easiest thing in the world. And, there hasn't been one.

[heaven05]

147. Aug 9, Aug 1, go find it yourself.

all you that want others to do your work for you, those days are over. Get that through your entitled, privileged heads, okay..geez I as well as many here and in etherland are in total agreement as to the assertions you find so hard to believe. It does not surprise me, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Truly sad.

[ismnotwasm]

165. Yeah I won't look up stuff for them either

I wasn't even talking about DU--although there's tons here too. All over the Internet asses are being shown. When even Thom Hartman and Occupy speak out against it--you'd think people would listen. They don't.

[1StrongBlackMan]

261. Seems some have learned the lesson well ...

get called out about something posted ... deny it exists/existed and demand that the other person find it and show it to you so that you can deny that it says what it says ... each and every time you are called out on it.

Does that tactic sound familiar? It proved quite effective for a "Pillar of DU", as the caller outer will soon tire of the routine.

[ismnotwasm]

287. It's far too familier

As well as bloody ridiculous. I refuse to play. I will admit, the first time it was directed to me personally I was taken aback. Then I thought "Oh Hell no"

[lunasun]

671. It's part of what makes DU so boring ....too familiar

[hueymahl]

185. I think heaven just called you a bigot, or maybe just an out-of-touch liberal

Get that through your entitled, privileged heads

That's polite-speak for rich, entitled, (probably) white and oblivious to your own bigotry.

I sure would like to see less name calling and more issues discussed.

[heaven05]

219. you don't speak for me

don't even try to. You would be an utter failure at speaking what I think.......and if you really knew what I think, you wouldn't even try. You'd embarrass yourself, miserably.

[hueymahl]

274. I am sure that is the case for pretty much everyone

I was not trying to speak for you. Just trying to interpret what you were so carefully trying not to say.

The OP made a substantive post. Unfortunately too many of the responses have devolved into personal attacks.

[ismnotwasm]

290. The poster says what they want to say.

Stop trying to speak for them

[Bobbie Jo]

41. Just yesterday...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=522623

Want more?

[Dawgs]

94. Uh, that's one person and no proof that they are Bernie supporter.

You want to try again? And, I expect more than one.

[Bobbie Jo]

107. That's what I thought

I could post 100 just like that and get the same response.

Not wasting my time with you. It is what it is.

[Dawgs]

113. Is that one poster a Bernie supporter?

If you have at least 10 (not 100) I would gladly that are actual supporters I would gladly agree. That should be easy, right?

Owned.

[Bobbie Jo]

118. Good Lord

Note: favorite group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=150862

You're embarrassing yourself at this point.

[Dawgs]

126. So you can only come up with one and I'm embarrassing myself.

Not really good with facts and numbers, huh?

Explains everything we need to know.

[Bobbie Jo]

131. Be careful what you ask for...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=503492

Note favorite group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=308563

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=502910

Note favorite group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=317181

[Dawgs]

134. Why should I be careful?

I have no problem with facts.

[Bobbie Jo]

137. Yeah, we're done here. nt

[Dawgs]

143. Yep. We are. n/t

[MaggieD]

368. Exactly

[1StrongBlackMan]

105. Now you KNOW how this is going to go ...

"... That's not racist?" ... Hell, if calling a Black person a "race-nagger" didn't make the grade nothing short of the N-word will.

[Bobbie Jo]

111. Predictable as all get out

You called it correctly.

[Dawgs]

150. Except it didn't. n/t

[MaggieD]

42. If you haven't noticed them then....

I have to believe you are either oblivious to them or do not want to see them. They are pervasive as many commenters and authors of articles about the situation have also noted.

[Dawgs]

100. So, you can't prove that you say happens all of the time.

That's not on me.

[MaggieD]

201. No, I refuse to play your games

I am also not going to spend time trying to prove to you that the sky is blue.

[roomtomove]

224. I know a guy............

eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Wouldn't this post be more aptly titled "Why I support Hillary Clinton"?

[Picking Dem]

26. Because she declared her blood oath to Hillary anyway

that means she must ignore every viable candidate, and attack supporters of said viable candidates.

When Clinton loses her primary, what is MaggieD going to do? go PUMA?

[MaggieD]

30. Where did I do that?

I do like HRC, but at this point I am pretty much "any progressive EXCEPT Bernie."

I would support Warren, Gore, Biden, etc. But I would rather just not vote in the primary if Bernie was the only one on the ballot.

[Picking Dem]

46. You still haven't said what's wrong with Bernie.

In other words, your rant was TL;DR

[kenfrequed]

64. You would support any candidate that isn't running.

Rather convenient that you don't mention any of the other candidates actually running for president. No love for O'malley at all?

I have to tell you that I support Bernie Sanders first and foremost and I will only vote for your candidate if there is no other reasonable choice. If it is either Hillary or a republican I will probably pull the lever for your candidate but I will likely end up having to drink quite a bit both before and after voting for her. I will not be enthusiastic about it. Not one little bit.

[Picking Dem]

103. Which clearly shows her bias.

Completely ignoring O'Malley while naming people not running.

[kenfrequed]

582. Pretty much

This whole post is just a rehash of the anti-bernie spin for the last three months. It is like a 'best-of' post only terrible.

There are very few actual facts in the thing when you analyze it.

[MoveIt]

584. It helps in one major way

But only if you place the people who recommended this thread on ignore. Fixes DU right up.

[MaggieD]

27. No, because I am in the "anybody but Bernie" column now

[azurnoir]

68. so if he does become the candidate are you saying you won't vote or you'll for some other party?

[Picking Dem]

372. If Bernie does win.

Expect the Clinton supporters to do a repeat of 2008.

[seabeyond]

402. and what would that be. a handful not vote sanders? do not expect it. not a single clinton

supporter has stated they would not vote sanders. many sanders supporters has insisted, argued they refuse to vote clinton. let elsewhere for your failed supposition.

[Picking Dem]

407. Failed supposition? Here's why.

Bernie attracts people from all political spectrum - many of them Independents or Republicans who are changing their party status to Democratic to vote for Bernie- and if Bernie doesn't win, then Clinton won't be able to keep the new Democratic voters because they changed for change, not for tired old status quo.

[seabeyond]

417. so? oh my. we will lose the repugs teabagger and libertarians.

[Live and Learn]

551. I suspect you are right. That was pretty ugly. nt

[840high]

124. I looked up your rec's.

[heaven05]

133. I do so applaud your candor

and truth. The usual suspects are doing their tried and untrue best to besmirch, distract, diminish and lie concerning your truthful OP, it's been bad here. They are getting good people banned for saying less than you have about their 'super' candidate. I surmise a lot of libertarians, tea party minions and the rest of the extreme RW ilk are drifting into his camp, especially since they are so confused themselves. The level of vicious, racist vitriol brought against anti-BS folks here and on the internet forums and social gatherings is amazing.

Thank you for a fresh new voice being added to the growing camp of people who are critical thinkers, for themselves, not aligned with the lock step BS crowd. IF, big if, he is the GE candidate of my party he will have my vote, the same goes for HRC or any darkhorse that might rise from the ashes of this candidates flameout and crash.

Again, I applaud you....

[freshwest]

334. Thanks heaven05, your posts are always enlightening to me. n/t

[frylock]

187. now..

[ismnotwasm]

23. I wasn't so much against Sanders as I was for Hillary

She has my unqualified support.

Sanders, now, I have so much disgust at his social-media followers, that I project onto him. I try not to do this so I can remain objective.
With two exceptions, my RL friends who support Sanders are politically naive, and now even they are re-thinking support because of the atrocious behavior of so many followers.

It is an ugly,ugly situation. DU is only one thing, unmoderated free-for-alls out in Internet land are far worse.

[erronis]

51. You cite part of the problem "unqualified support" for Hillary. Since when does any free-thinker

give Unqualified Support to anybody. I thought most of the locked-in-step were in the other party.

[1StrongBlackMan]

119. ...

[ismnotwasm]

170. Yawn.

[Ed Suspicious]

132. You demand qualification for Bern, but no qualification necessary for Hill? Weird.

[ismnotwasm]

172. What are you talking about, exactly?

You think I get my political information from DemocraticUnderground?

[Bohemianwriter]

161. Sounds a bit short sited...

What is it about Bernies social media supporters? Are they all in uniform attack mode?

That they are sceptical to anyone taking the dough from Wall Street?

As far as internet goes, it's an ugly world onto itself. Projecting that over to Bernie is...as i said a bit short sited. And then others come and accuse his supporters for being racist, and "elitist", it seems that balance has been restored after all that "Hillary bashing".

But there is one thing to take into consideration. Most people are sick and tired of political monarchies. And to make Bernie into some Manchurian Candidate, is wrong. Anyone who's ever seen the big bicture over the last 30-40 years have seen that more and more democrats have gone away from the FDR plattform, have grown spineless, or just plain bought like the republicans.
Many considers Hillary to be a corporate democrat who only AFTER Sanders threw himself into the campaign that she started to speak meekly about the same things as Bernie. She does not sound sincere. She doesn't have open rallies.
Her other weakness is her lack of will to answer questions straight. She doesn't speak with people or listen to them. She speaks over them.
She is like the strict principal whom everybody is a bit afraid of. Bernie is like the cool teacher that everybody loves. If anything, he also reminds me of my deseased grandfather who passed away when I was freezing and alone at Christmas in Ireland. I trust wisdom, honesty and courage.
(Pardon for the emotiona digression)

And he is not establishment. And he is right on line with the Roosevelts regarding economical policies.

If I may come with a few words of foreshadowing; the future of your country lies withing the democratic primaries.
It will be your choice. Will you go for more money in politics, or will you go for a fundamental reform before you do anything else?

[ismnotwasm]

174. Say What?

[GoneFishin]

523. She is a Washington insider, status quo preserving, $2700/plate candidate. If you have $2700

to spend on a meal then she probably is your candidate.

Bernie is my first and only choice. I am sick of focus group obsessed candidates. Answer the questions, and answer them candidly, or shut the hell up.

[Bohemianwriter]

663. If I had 2700 on hand...

I'd go on a holiday tomorrow.

[neverforget]

515. unqualified support from the Dictionary

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/unqualified

complete and total, without any doubts

Synonyms and related words
Complete and thorough:thorough, total, pure...

[ladjf]

24. Electioneering junk. nt

[erronis]

52. Agree. And this pollution is what they want to do. Stuff the airwaves with their junk.

[ladjf]

89. I really don't blame them. I just wanted to voice my opinion about

the material.

[Cali_Democrat]

29. Thank you for sharing your opinion

I enjoy reading a wide array of viewpoints as opposed to an echo chamber.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Gosh Maggie, how do you rationalize support for legitimizing Brunei as a favored partner even as

Brunei intensifies their anti gay laws to include death by stoning? That's a big part of why I oppose the TPP.
To be more accurate, Brunei is one of the nations that originated the TPP in 2005. The Sultan wants the economic benefits of globalization. At the same time, the Sultan has passed ultra conservative religious based laws for the public which he says will serve to insulate their culture from this globalization he wants to profit from. So these laws oppress and punish a variety of people, women and gay persons of course facing the worst of it, but no one getting a good deal on this save for the Sultan and his family, exempt from the laws and exclusively entitled to the profits as absolute monarchs.
Very hard to support an agreement when one party to that agreement says that in order to live with it they have to execute their gay people by stoning. Can reasonable people, as you say, disagree on this? I am not so sure about that.

[Hoyt]

39. Helping Brunei become a more civilized country will do more than doing nothing. Sorry.

No one agrees Brunei's behavior is acceptable. But shunning them won't help a bit. Probably makes it worse. What we know of the agreement requires improvements in human rights. Is it enough in this case -- probably not, but it's better than nothing.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Brunei is a very wealthy country now, with many holding in the United States.

They are currently not being shunned at all. This agreement simply adds legitimacy to a relationship that really should be sanctioned not rewarded.
It is offensive that you speak in such vague terms about human lives. Hyperbole and dismissal. 'Shunning them'. Jesus. You clearly know nothing about the place, the laws or the agreement. Fuck all,

[Hoyt]

58. My guess is, if Brunei were not an issue, you'd come up with something else to oppose TPP and

Obama. Jesus.

[Bluenorthwest]

585. Stoning gay people to death is not a valid issue to you? Jesus. I countered your view and now you

have no response so you just attack me? That demonstrates strongly that you are unable to defend the inhumanity of this agreement.

I also notice the OP is too fearful of the subject to respond to my question. Her silence is very definitive of her weak grasp on the politics.

That makes two of you supporting horrors you can't even attempt to rationalize.

[Romulox]

78. "a guy who has lots of ivory is less likely to hurt Stampy than a guy whose ivory supplies are low.”

?w=512&h=384

[onehandle]

35. He won't be nominated.

Trust me.

[V0ltairesGh0st]

49. Thats what they said about a guy named...

Obama.

[underthematrix]

67. LOL. Maybe u were thinking that but in 2004, most peeps

were like me, if he runs I will vote for him. PBO had a lot of buzz going into the 2008 primaries - lots of buzz. And he had the FLAVA.

[Ed Suspicious]

138. Bernie has no buzz. These are not the droids you're looking for.

[TheFarS1de]

630. Obernie wan kenobi , you are our only hope

[Picking Dem]

50. I'm a clairvoyant - Clinton won't win - but Bernie will win it all.

Clinton's path to nomination ends after Super Tuesday, with no viability AGAIN

[Bohemianwriter]

171. Even I am willing to make some wages on a Bernie win ;-)

[leftofcool]

562. ROFL

[restorefreedom]

214. until he is. nt

[hamsterjill]

231. I totally agree.

I like Bernie, personally, as a politician, but I do not believe Bernie will be the nominee. If he is, I'll vote for him, but I'm supporting Clinton for President in 2016.

That said, I honestly DO believe that Bernie is serving a very positive role in this primary season. He is going to be the source for a great deal of good, honest and necessary debate. His presence in this race is not going to be a bad thing.

[onehandle]

467. Exactly right. nt

[djean111]

36. Hillary did not change her mind about gay marriage until a few years ago.

Here is Bernie's opinion of the TPP - this was written by Bernie. Detailed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/the-tpp-must-be-defeated_b_7352166.html
And I assume you are aware that we are already trading with all of these countries. The TPP is pretty much all about corporations.

HRC is going to build coalitions with people who are busily investigating her for Benghazi and email-gate? I think both things are stupid, but the GOP does not like her one little it, seems to me.

at some point a person is known by the company they keep, or the crowd that supports them. I can’t even imagine throwing my voice into that mix by supporting him.

Boy, does that cut both ways, says a Bernie supporter.

That all being said - I don't think any Bernie Sanders supporters really wonder why Hillary Clinton supporters do not support Bernie.

[Autumn]

37. Why I DON'T support Hillary for President

I won't spend another second defending her from her bad judgment calls, from her Iraq vote to her e mail server and everything in between. Yeah blame Bernie supporters, I'll take the high road and I won't say at some point a person is known by the company she keeps or the crowd that supports her from the big banks and investment banks that crashed the economy that pay her outrageous amounts of money for a speech from her or that I don't support her because of her supporters. Just no, I will not join her crowd. I have no desire to see her in the White House, not even on a tour. I am in the "anybody but Hillary" camp now. And I will remain there.

[V0ltairesGh0st]

57. Exactly...heres why she wont have my vote.

[Historic NY]

66. Thats funny but you want the DNC to pay his freight...

just where do you think the money comes from.

[RoccoR5955]

128. Money comes from

WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations!

[Autumn]

159. The DNC has been fundraising off Bernie.

Disgusting since "He's not a Democrat" seems to be a favorite fault Hillary supporters find with him.

[Historic NY]

175. Well he is running as a Democrat perhaps if he wasn't they wouldn't be out there soliciting....

you can't have the cake without providing the flour....plenty complain. As for the Democrat thing he has said it himself.

[Autumn]

181. He has always caucused with the democrats. A lot of us aren't democrats. Edited

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Edited to thank the jury and the kind jurors who sent me the results



On Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

He has always caucused with the democrats. A lot of us aren't democrats.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=524780

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

And finally we have an admission, Autumn isn't a Democrat and yet here she is on Democratic Underground. Let's show her the door, I'm sick of these libertarian trolls.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Aug 17, 2015, 09:17 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree. Not a Democrat? Bye-bye.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is not required to be a Democratic to be on DU. Reread the tos.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sounds like a vendetta alert. Stop abusing the system.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate ag

[MaggieD]

190. Well when the primaries are over....

I hope to see all of the "a lot of us are democrats" missing from this forum. This forum is a place to support Democrats. Hopefully they will be liberal with the tombstoning, as necessary, when the time comes.

[Autumn]

210. Are you aware it's not required to be a democrat to be a member and not being a democrat

is not an offense posters are banned for? One of our admins isn't a democrat. Bernie supports democrats, that's why he has always caucused with them. A little early to call for a purge.

[MaggieD]

289. You will be banned if you diss the Dem nominee

I have been here since 2001. The great purge will take place right after the convention. And then we won't have to listen to people dissing actual democrats any longer. That's pretty generous. If it were my site those folks would be gone now.

[Juicy_Bellows]

351. That rule would apply if Bernie gets the nomination as well, right? nt.

[MaggieD]

354. Except he won't

But keep dreaming. He and his supporters have completely alienated minorities and you cannot win the nomination without the key groups.

[Juicy_Bellows]

357. Minority here, and we shall see. nt.

[artislife]

444. They don't understand

Bernie is going to do well with the Latinos, once they get to hearing him.

Los Angeles, in the crowd were people who help the community against ICE. They are supporting Bernie, and all they do is outreach day in and day out!

[Juicy_Bellows]

454. I think Sanders will do well with minorities despite the

Claims otherwise. Once you cut through the BS and spin from the 'very serious people' and talk to real people on the streets. You know, like face to face? His support keeps growing and not just with 'liberal white elites in Volvos'. Cheers!

[artislife]

456. Yup nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

492. When do you expect that to happen? n/t

[Juicy_Bellows]

495. Around the start of November if not earlier. Nt.

[Picking Dem]

524. Really? You don't watch Twitter or watch the news

Bernie and the leader of BLM are going to be meeting shortly.

Bernie has already rolled out a terrific agenda addressing BLM issues.

[Autumn]

404. Oh that's right you were banned for dissing Kerry or something

in 2005 and then allowed to come back again in 2014. You might have missed all the dissing of democrats going on while you were gone. You should buy the site so that never happens again.

[PDittie]

452. LMAO

[irisblue]

445. posting Alert Results

You will be banned if you diss the Dem nominee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=525005

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The "great purge" threat and threatening to ban everyone who disagrees. Inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:53 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The Democratic Convention is in Philly on July 25-28th. Plenty of time to do and say stuff that will be refuted. LEAVE irisblue
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a obnoxious post, with an implied threat, and an even more obnoxious "if this were my site...", but it doesn't insult anybody, much less the person who alerted. While I agree with the alerter that it is inappropriate, it doesn't quite get to the removal threshold.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You will be banned if....
This is pretty much what is going to happen. It has happened before. It is clearly outlined in the TOS. Don't see the need for this alert.

[seabeyond]

453. yes. they are having a cutsey little alert party on maggies post. all up and down the thread.

eventually there will be four to hide sittin at 80-85% of du, simply cause they want to shut maggies up.

get five hides in one thread, she is out for three months.

nothing like playing on that unlevel playing field here on our democratic..... DEMOCRATIC board discussing our candidates inability to recognize the unlevel playing field.

so fuckin ironic, right?

[Bobbie Jo]

457. Yep, here we go...

Shut 'em down.

Creepy.

[seabeyond]

459. i cannot say what i think of this behavior, in so many ways, cause it would be an inevitable hide.

but, i cannot stand this abuse of ones power. all my life, it has been this behavior that has riled me the most.

[SMC22307]

535. "i cannot stand this abuse of ones power"

Seriously, clicking a little button on a message board?



Actually, that's quite sad. To think one is actually wielding power by... clicking a little button on a message board.

[Picking Dem]

476. Don't like the alert stalking (which I don't do)

then get rid of the jury system and return to the moderators. There - no more alert stalking.

[seabeyond]

504. how do you know about all this???

[Blue_In_AK]

557. Oh, for Pete's sake,

I got called for a jury on this post and it was allowed to stand with a large majority, even though at least two of us completely disagree with the OP. I think this idea of "alert stalking" is overblown. Ironically, I was also called to a jury on a post that referenced this one negatively, and that one was hidden. The alerts and hides go both ways. You are not all victims.

[Capt. Obvious]

572. Now you can.

Disgusting behavior of the map - puts them in conflict with the private personality brasive a gun and fire, follow this part of the future would witness the first day back to the two skins. They do not know how to Clinton

[Chan790]

513. I'll take my chances...

I have a premonition of a lot of Clinton supporters gnashing their teeth and wailing and denouncing Bernie as a non-Democrat after she falters again.

If it were up to me, they'd be banned now for promoting a stealth Republican on DU.

[irisblue]

431. Autumn, which admin is not a democrat? TIA n/t

[Autumn]

465. Our EarlG is British. As much as I loved the Beatles, he is the best British invasion.

Unless he's moved here.

[Picking Dem]

390. I hope the admins will be wise enough

to figure how to deal with the fallout if Clinton does lose - and the admins are Clinton supporters.

[seabeyond]

405. we will do what dems do and vote dem. we realize the importance of keeping repugs out, unlike

too many of the independent sander supporters that feel a repug in office would teach us all a lesson.

[Historic NY]

491. Which actually means nothing....except

the Republicans don't want him Democrats have a big tent.

[Autumn]

182. That's a lot of reasons to not support her in my eyes.

[ismnotwasm]

197. How many times does that image need to be debunked around here?

A Brazillion?

[MissDeeds]

109. Thank you, Autumn

I agree completely.

[Autumn]

177. Hillary has been running for president since she and Bill left the White House.

Her tenure as a Senator was nothing more than a stepping stone to the Presidency which she failed at miserably to an unknown Jr. Senator and I don't know of anything she accomplished there other than her IWR vote which enabled Bush to cause the destruction of a sovereign nation and millions of lives destroyed, killed or maimed. As SOS I don't see that she really didn't do anything noteworthy. I really can't think of any actual accomplishments in either of those positions that she achieved.

[artislife]

446. To be honest

They dropped the two for the price of one there in the first term. So I think she has been running since 1992. She has calculated everything. Except how people are with her. She is polarizing. And Simon Cowell once said that you have to be likable for America to vote for you...

[restorefreedom]

217. plus a freaking million. nt

[arcane1]

286. Amen to that!

[Live and Learn]

552. +1 nt

[Trajan]

38. Gone, you are ..

It took a while, but, there you are ...Gone ...

[Maedhros]

43. The fact that you included this outright lie:

And there are some things he clearly doesn’t see that others do, or has been very much a Johnny come lately on issues, such as institutional racism.

Made me stop reading the rest of your nonsense.

Don't need to ever read any more.

/Bye.

[cali]

54. lol. I saw the name of the poster and skipped the rest.

[Maedhros]

65. I'm not familiar with the greater body of her work.

She claims to be an "informed voter", but her information seems to come straight from the Clinton campaign and nowhere else.

That she tried, with a straight face, to post that Sanders "doesn't see clearly" on the issue of institutional racism, while at the same time trying to tell us that the candidate who hires prison industry lobbyists as fundraising bundlers does, is high comedy.

Regardless of what BLM is actually trying to do, it is clear that the Clinton campaign is co-opting the message in order to spread lies. Par for the course.

[cali]

74. oh, the body of her posts is quite something

It paints a clear and interesting picture. She's made some truly outlandish claims.

[Maedhros]

96. Well, I'll never see them. [n/t]

[840high]

397. That's what I should have done.

[seabeyond]

60. he has a 1 billion youth job program. do you see where the institutional racism comes in that plan?

sanders does not seem to see it. hence the conclusion sanders lacks at recognizing it.

[azurnoir]

71. are you saying his plan calls for better jobs for White youth or for Asian youth or what?

[seabeyond]

83. so you recognize the institutional racism. blacks are last hired, first fired. an unlevel playing

field with no attempt to level the playing field will benefit the white middle and upper middle class first and trickle down to the poor and minority.

that would be the difference of being able to SEE institutional racism.

[azurnoir]

112. No I asked a question which you failed to answer

nothing in the 1 billion youths program is aimed at rich white kids, and in fact most such programs do have income exclusions

[seabeyond]

144. i very specifically answered your question. sanders plan show NO mention of income exclusions.

we can only go off what is provided us.

if he wanted to show he understood institutional racism, and that was part of his campaign, would he not have MENTIONED that in his discussion of the 1 billion youth job program?

[passiveporcupine]

598. this is from Sander's site. Have you read it?

We must invest $5.5 billion in a federally-funded youth employment program to employ young people of color who face disproportionately high unemployment rates.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

636. chirp chirp

[seabeyond]

668. i read strongblackmans couple links. that was not in there a couple months ago, and

sanders did not state that when initially talking about this program.

thank you for the information. sanders is right on, and no criticism there.

[seabeyond]

149. it is just not that often our candidates blatantly show us their weakness as sanders is doing. nt

[azurnoir]

194. aha ya weak keep telling yourself that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=524649

[seabeyond]

198. it seems to be dogging him from the start of his campaign until now.

[azurnoir]

208. what's been "dogging" Bernie

the smears coming mainly from the Hillary camp?

[seabeyond]

227. from my view the conversation started with sanders and undecided camp trying to make him stronger.

[seabeyond]

204. but then, you never really addressed the institutional racism in his plan, either.

[azurnoir]

216. I said there was not any institutional racism it is other who claim his youth program/collage plans

are all about rich white kids

[seabeyond]

232. so, you do not see the unlevel playing field that poc experience in the hiring and firing with jobs?

ok

that was not clear.

[azurnoir]

275. we're talking about a federal program not the open job market

[seabeyond]

285. so? unless the playing field is consciously leveled out, you do not feel that the federal govt has

institutional racism?

[azurnoir]

288. usually such programs have rules that address that type of thing

[seabeyond]

298. that does not work for me. that should work for no one. there should not be a struggle insisting

our candidate SHOWS us he gets the unlevel playing field and IMPLEMENTS it in his plan.

that simple.

omalley and clinton do it.

sanders can too

when he repeatedly says, .... his campaign is reaching out to working class and middle class, and does not implement the means to level out the playing field with a 1 billion youth job program, i listen and take him at his word

that should not be a bad thing on my part and i should not get flack in the democratic party for wanting my candidate to GET IT

[azurnoir]

332. ah so your saying we should "level the playing field" before implementing any plan

aimed at helping to level the playing field

[1StrongBlackMan]

432. How does presenting job opportunities for everyone ...

help level the playing field?

[azurnoir]

563. what level of inclusiveness would you prefer? BTW the bill was coauthored by John Conyers

something that gets ignored for some reason

Bernie Sanders today visited an innovative job training site for unemployed youth in the capital city’s Anacostia neighborhood and unveiled legislation with Rep. John Conyers to create new jobs.

“We cannot continue to ignore the crisis of youth unemployment in America. We are talking about the future of an entire generation,” Sanders said. “We have got to make sure that young people in Washington, D.C., and all over this country have the opportunity to earn a paycheck and to make it into the middle class.”

Sanders and Conyers today introduced companion bills in the Senate and House to provide $5.5 billion for states and local governments to employ 1 million youth from ages 16 to 24 years old. The U.S. Department of Labor would provide $4 billion in grants to provide summer and year-round employment opportunities for low-income youth. Another $1.5 billion would be allotted for competitive grants for work-based training programs.

Their measure also would provide training for hundreds of thousands of young Americans who in many cases have finished high school but have no prospects for college or other training and no job opportunities.

“Despite the nation’s progress on job creation, America’s youngest workers continue to struggle with an unemployment rate that is twice as high as that of the general population,” said Conyers. “For young high school graduates, the unemployment rate is 19.5 percent, while the underemployment rate is a shocking 37 percent, over 10 points higher than before the Great Recession.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/sanders-proposes-youth-jobs-bill

[1StrongBlackMan]

568. I don't care who co-sponsored The Youth Jobs Bill ...

while it is a good and needed program ... let's be honest it's goal is to employ youth, not "level any playing field" ... it won't even address income inequality.

[azurnoir]

595. interesting response now you claim helping youth get into the job market will not help

"level any playing field" ? why ? and may I remind that was actually I strawman brought up by someone else but I'll play so explain why or are we back to the program will it help 'some' youth but not others?

[1StrongBlackMan]

597. What playing field would level ...

it won't level the racial field because it is offered to white, black and brown ... In fact, because there are more (numerically) white (and poor white) youth ... it will likely exacerbate the white/Black ... and white/brown, intra-class disparity.

And it won't even come close to leveling the economic playing field (relative to the 1%).

So tell me ... what playing field could this program possibly level.

BTW ... Your, "are we back to the program will it help 'some' youth but not others?" line is a give away as to what playing field you are not interested in leveling.

[azurnoir]

603. so you're saying this program will give poor white youth better jobs than poor Black youth because

there are more poor white youths?

[1StrongBlackMan]

606. No ...

I'm saying that when you start with disparity, giving to both sides of the equation, results in continued disparity.

[azurnoir]

607. sounds rather pessimistic

[1StrongBlackMan]

608. Pessimism born of lived experience ...

So what play field will be leveled by this plan?

[azurnoir]

609. what playing field are you speaking of?

[1StrongBlackMan]

614. You tell me ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=525099

[azurnoir]

623. you're asking the wrong person

my replies were to a claim that Bernie Sanders plan was (institutionally) racist leaving out of course that it is John Conyers plan too


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=524841

so tell us what plan would suggest to wipe out institutional racism?

eta perhaps a closer look at the comment of mine you linked too


Star Member azurnoir (39,676 posts)
332. ah so your saying we should "level the playing field" before implementing any plan

aimed at helping to level the playing field


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=525099

[1StrongBlackMan]

628. Whoa ... You're getting me confused ...

Star Member azurnoir (39,676 posts)
332. ah so your saying we should "level the playing field" before implementing any plan

aimed at helping to level the playing field

Are you not suggesting that this plan is "aimed at helping to level the playing field"? If so, we're back to our (yours and my) starting point ... which playing field is this plan "aimed at helping to level"?

[azurnoir]

629. so tell us what plan would you suggest to wipe out institutional racism?

I'm sorry about any confusion but I felt I should clarify what I said

[1StrongBlackMan]

634. No one plan would wipe out institutional racism ...

but there are several that will ameliorate the EFFECTS of institutional racism, e.g., sentencing/prison reform, reform of policing, reform of school financing schemes, revisiting the idea of restitution ... just to name a few.

[azurnoir]

637. exactly which was why I put the qualifier "help" in the comment you linked to

[1StrongBlackMan]

640. You keep dancing around the question ...

So I'll ask again ... what playing field will this plan help to level?

[azurnoir]

652. what have you been going on about ? you answered it for me Thank you

[1StrongBlackMan]

653. Now I get to consider whether you are being intentional avoidant, unintentionally obtuse, or ...

too slick by half (but that's redundant).

I have my thoughts, so I won't be spending too much time in considering.

[azurnoir]

654. whatever you wish but you answered the question for both of us

BTW you had some good idea's

oh and IMO the playing field is the socio-economic structure of the US, the place where social justice and economic justice intersect

eta when it comes to educational programs my son will be starting at a 2 year community collage under a local program which provides those 2 years free for qualifying students - the 2 main qualifications are a GPA of at least 2.9 and a family income of < $75,000 per year (net) , pretty fair all things considered

His high school had 2 valedictorians one is Black and the other Hmong

[1StrongBlackMan]

655. Okay ... "soico-economic structure of the US ...

, the place where social justice and economic justice intersect."

Now ... how would this plan help to level the "socio-economic structure"?

How can a program for ALL impoverished youth help level the playing field when, even within that structure, there exist racial disparities? So the plan, fails on that measure. How can the plan level the economic playing field ... or, rather, for whom would the field be leveled?

IOWs, if every impoverish youth got employment and was lifted out of poverty, the intra-class disparity would still exist and the plan would do vitually nothing to close the income inequality gap with the 1%.

So while the plan is good, and in my estimation, needed ... Let's not cast it as being what it is not.

[azurnoir]

677. I think getting out of poverty is a goal in itself

IMO the rest is sort of a 'gish gallop' or insecting so many things that no answer is possible so I shall separate the 2 statements

"you say "How can a program for ALL impoverished youth help level the playing field when, even within that structure, there exist racial disparities? So the plan, fails on that measure. How can the plan level the economic playing field ... or, rather, for whom would the field be leveled? "
do you expect 1 cure all for all racial economic evils? I never stated it was I said it could help and that help would be by lifting at least some youth out of poverty, iMO there needs to be an educational component too though as that will do far more

"IOWs, if every impoverish youth got employment and was lifted out of poverty, the intra-class disparity would still exist and the plan would do vitually nothing to close the income inequality gap with the 1%. "

you're right it would not and I'll let Mr Sanders address you on the rest

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/08/19/bernie_sanders_let_me_tell_you_something_no_other_candidate_for_president_will_tell_you.html

[passiveporcupine]

599. I won't reply to your every reiteration of this error in your observation

But I did above to one of your posts. You are wrong about Bernie's plan for jobs for youth. He does address POC in jobs. It's on his site. Perhaps you need to read it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

613. Before you call me in error, perhaps you should be/get better informed ...

is this $5.5 Billion:

We must invest $5.5 billion in a federally-funded youth employment program to employ young people of color who face disproportionately high unemployment rates.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

The same as this $5.5 Billion:

The Employ Young Americans Now Act that will be introduced in the Senate by Sen. Sanders will provide $5.5 billion in immediate funding to employ one million young Americans in summer and year round jobs; and will provide hundreds of thousands of young Americans with the job training and skills they need for the jobs of the future.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/060415-employamericansnowactfactsheet?inline=file

The latter one was the one we were talking about.

The website wasn't clear.

[passiveporcupine]

625. I was not responding to you.

But in the latter one...in your link it says:

Under this legislation, DOL would also award $1.5 billion in competitive grants to local areas to provide work-based training to low-income youth and disadvantaged young adults.

The poor youth in this country are predominantly POC (not just black) and the "disadvantaged" are also predominantly POC. I think, based on the dollars indicated, they may both be the same plan.

[1StrongBlackMan]

631. My bad ... the noise got kind of loud ...

But can I make a slight correction ... Youth of Color represent a high percentage of those living in poverty and classified as disadvantaged; but, do not represent more numerically.

But yes ... I agree the Bernie/Conyers plan that is directed at all poor youth is the same plan on Bernie's website that is being represented as being directed a Black youth.

[passiveporcupine]

635. according to the young Americans job act

provide summer and year round employment opportunities for low-income youth, with direct links to academic and occupational learning; and

It repeatedly states that it will be targeting low-income and disadvantaged youth, which, I believe means POC.

[heaven05]

153. +10,000

truth

[MoveIt]

45. Populism is icky, how dare he offer free college!

"Pandering to white middle class"
Um whut?

Is this list of particular memes the best HRC opposition research can muster ?

[underthematrix]

73. The president went around the country talking about

his plan to community college FREE. Do you remember that?

[MoveIt]

253. Yes I do

Bernie Sanders challenges us to match Germany's plan to make higher education free to all. If you think that the future should have more educated people with more opportunity then Sanders plan is even better. Hint: look under couches at the pentagon for spare change! There should be sufficient money in those black budgets for official Iraqi bribery / slush funds that Sanders can slash.

[MaggieD]

154. How will that help anyone but middle class white kids

.... who go to decent schools? Please explain.

And why make comments such as this "best HRC opposition research can muster"? I don't work for any campaign. I don't need to be told Bernie's college thing is an impassable proposition, simply designed pander to whites by another candidate (who I do not think has even said that). It's perfectly obvious to me. The fact that you feel the need to personally attack me instead of debate the issue only makes my point (#4) for me.

IMO, Bernie Sanders is an old white guy as out of touch as most old white guys.

[MoveIt]

173. Inept Trolling

That's all your thread is.

[MaggieD]

186. Can't debate - so personally attack?

See item number 4 on my list.

[MoveIt]

503. No, just an apt description for an epicly non-expert attempt at disruption

[Bohemianwriter]

191. I can hear the calls from the ghettos:

"We, the disenfranchised for Hillary! We trust her to dig into her chamber of corporate donations to build better schools for us and to keep the cops off our backs"...

When Hillary was still a republican in the 60s, Bernie had already been arrested for his civil rights work in the deep south.

Yeah!

He is out of touch. Unlike the street smart establishment. The ones who needs security just going out the door.

[MaggieD]

195. So you can't answer my question?

Hillary was 17 and in high school when she supported Goldwater. Back then Bernie was writing stories about how women fantasize about being raped. So I don't think you want to go that far back, do you?

[Bohemianwriter]

665. Right!

A badly written short story!

I don't have a number of how many short stories I have discarded and not necessarily proud of. And it seems that someone has difficulties in differentiating between fact and fiction.

It's as if a crime novelist fantasize about someone's murder because they write about murder.

Still. It shows us. One was a Goldwater republican (the one who appealed to southern racists) and one who got arrested for fighting for civil rights against what Goldwater stood for.

Off course the old liberal Jew doesn't have any credibility regarding minorities. Hillary have that in the box!

Besides, if you want to play dirty, may I remind you that the Hillary campaign practically gave birth to the Birther movement in 2008. Seems that dirty tactics doesn't get you far anymore.

Because they WILL be answered and smacked down. Not by Bernie himself, but by people who does not appreciate bullshit.

P.S. 50 Shades of Grey

[ismnotwasm]

300. "The calls from the ghettos"??

[freshwest]

343. Interesting to find a poster using that, to be honest... n/t

[JI7]

542. someone once said Clinton's harlem office wasn't in a real black area because it wasn't the ghetto

[BumRushDaShow]

324. "I can hear the calls from the ghettos"

Which "ghettos" are those? You do know what and who the term originally referenced, right?

[Bohemianwriter]

664. It shouldn't be hard to figure that one out?

Ghettos?

The Inner City areas of Detroit? East LA? The impoverished areas thanks to neo-liberal policies started by Reagan, expanded by Clinton, and gone on speed under Bush jr...
You know. Those areas that "liberal racists who supports Bernie Sanders" don't have a clue about.

[BumRushDaShow]

674. Perhaps you should look up the history of the term

Bernie should know.

[Bohemianwriter]

675. Why argue over terms?

Seems that a term is more important than the message.

Baiting and switching is something done on Youtube and Discuss.

[BumRushDaShow]

676. Words have origins and sometimes dog whistles backfire. nt

[Bohemianwriter]

678. Apparently Hillary supporters are getting desperate...

SHE is the one pushing for racist policies targeting minorities.
And when I say the ghetto, it was a pun to elitist Hillary drones who think they live in the real world and have authority to speak on behalf of the people their leader has been a part of pushing on them.

The dog whistle is all on the Hillary crowd. And I have little respect for people who attacks a word rather than looking at their own disgusting attitudes.

Perhaps Elvis old classic "In the ghetto" is another dog whistle, eh?

[BumRushDaShow]

679. I am not a Hillary supporter but the knee-jerk "But Hillary!!1!11!!" response

is quite typical of far too many here on DU purportedly promoting a candidate by way of insulting competing candidates, which only hurts the case of why one is better than another. Your buddy Bernie knows the origin. A little googling won't hurt.

[Bohemianwriter]

680. The origin of the word in this case is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what it means in this scenario.

This scenario and Hillary's actions and behavior shows us that she does not speak to the people whom she wants the vote from.

What hurts any case is arguing ad nauseum over the origins of a word rather than actually comprehending what the message was conveying.

It's a common troll tactic. A logical fallacy. And doesn't lead to anywhere but mutual resentment.

[BumRushDaShow]

681. Au contraire. It went woosh right over your head. nt

[Matariki]

560. That ageism you're peddling isn't nice at all.

You think that's a safe insult, huh? "Old white guy"?

[Doctor_J]

379. there are a LOT of duers who wont vote for a white male

Some have actually stated as as such, and others, like the op, say "Bernie's a racist" to mean "I am suspicious of all white men"

[seabeyond]

418. link that they will not vote white male or that anyone called snaders a racist.

[sufrommich]

53. Great OP. K&R. nt

[navarth]

55. thank you for your opinion

although you should know that it did nothing to change anybody's mind.

[ChiciB1]

72. BNGO! N/T

[heaven05]

157. minds are being changed

everyday, on the BS crowd and campaign in etherland. The 'supporters' are truly his worst enemy.

[navarth]

202. mmmmkay

if you say so

[frylock]

215. The people bailing from Bernie because his supporters are mean to them seem limited..

to DU and DK only, and they're only people who really had no intention of voting for him in the primary anyway. Not seeing this mass exodus on FB or IRL.

[seabeyond]

242. my first time voting white privileged son is bailing cause he is now dating a feminist girl. lol

ohhhhhh, i laugh. lol.

he is even being told how awesome he would be if he put a hillary sticker on his truck. that his truck is just PERFECT and it would go so well, as he experiences his senior yr, here in the panhandle of texas, ..... footie footie football star.

my kids, kids, amuse me. lol

[heaven05]

243. Okay try this

I'm out here in the real world, I am talking to real people, I am listening to real people. One couple, just yesterday, sitting with me drinking at my food coop, after I sent them here to see some of the things said by the whiners in one thread crying about being called "white supremacist liberals" came back to me laughing at how ludicrous BS supporters are. And how mean and vicious a lot of them are. They were leaning in his direction, more and more over the last few months, but had never visited this site or the BS supporter comments about #BlackLivesMatter and so forth. They will not be voting for BS, and will be sending their friends to visit to make up their own minds. Keep denying, reality will hit sooner or later. Bubbles can be burst pretty easily. I small prick. Oh and by the way, I am sending people here to read THIS OP also. You have no idea the damage that is being done to BS by his supporters in the real world outside of the insulated view many have here of their candidate. NO IDEA.

[frylock]

255. Cool story..

whining about being called "liberal white supremacists." Why can't these whining whiners just quit whining and embrace being labeled as "white supremacists"? Why are people so darn sensitive about things like that?

[bvar22]

364. People are bailing from Bernie....LOL.

[frylock]

426. something something something Ron Paul

[Doctor_J]

517. Certainly no more than are moving the other way because of Hillary's supporters halting Medicare

rallies and calling liberals "white supremecists"

[SMC22307]

540. These "Bernie's supporters are mean" tantrums are on DK as well?

Oy vey. These folks must not take their votes very seriously.

[840high]

400. +1

[uponit7771]

430. This is false on its face

[bread_and_roses]

56. That's an hilarious post - great satire! (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. "It wasn’t commercial banks that failed."

LOL!!!

[ctsnowman]

136. Exactly!

[DanTex]

160. It actually wasn't commercial banks that failed.

It was Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

229. Guess BofA, Wells and Citibank didn't need a huge BAILOUT after all.....

This is one of the dumbest talking points to come down the pike.

Then again, by all means, continue to argue against separation of commercial and investment banks by claiming only investment banks failed so separating them is not needed.

[DanTex]

254. Well, the whole financial sector needed bailing out, but what precipitated that

was collapses of pure investment banks that wouldn't have been affected by Glass-Steagall. Also, as far as I know, BofA and Wells Fargo were pure commercial banks, at least at the time, so they wouldn't have been affected either. Not sure about Citi.

The Glass-Steagall question is how much difference it makes to have investment banking and commercial banking separated. The 2008 crash doesn't really provide much evidence that the separation is so important.

[MaggieD]

278. Exactly - it won't help a thing

[Spitfire of ATJ]

382. What caused it was selling AAA rated instruments backed by shit.....

I know there is an effort by Bill Clinton to claim there is no link between his repeal of Glass-Steagall and the financial collapse but there WAS.

[DanTex]

383. What does Glass-Steagall have to do with the selling of AAA rated instruments that weren't?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

403. Their scam wouldn't be possible under Glass-Steagall.

[DanTex]

410. Why not? The scam was perpetrated mainly by pure investment banks.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

427. Those instruments were sold by commercial banks....

They were mortgage backed securities where the collateral was hyper-inflated and they did such a sloppy job of bundling that they didn't even have all of the legal documents. Then there's the whole sub-prime scam to steal people's houses just to add their projected value into these instruments. Real Estate value climbed to two or three times what it was worth before the bubble burst.

It's not the first time this happened either. It happened before and Glass-Steagall was passed so it would never happen again.

Now Hillary supporters are claiming it's not needed just to try to take a dig at Sanders.

[PassingFair]

586. Crickets....also because it reflects poorly on Bill.

I can't believe the bullshit being slung on this thread.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

590. I half expect the next bit will be claiming the Housing Crisis was Barney Frank's fault.

[Recursion]

647. Sure it would. I don't think you understand what Glass-Steagall did.

Glass-Steagall said that a retail bank could not operate a proprietary desk.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

649. It made the phrase,"It's like money in the bank" mean something.

[Recursion]

650. No, that's never meant what people think it means. Google "fractional reserve banking"

Glass-Steagall is a bromide, and not a very good one at that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

651. Everyone knows there's an effort right now to mimimize the effect of the repeal of Glass Steagall...

That's because it leads back to Bill Clinton who came out and claimed there isn't a single bit of evidence that his repeal of GS was responsible for the crash.

[fbc]

209. yeah, I don't she understands Glass Steagall

[Recursion]

645. It wasn't

It was the investment banks that were never covered by Glass-Steagall to begin with.

For something DU claims to care about so much, few people seem to actually learn what happened.

[underthematrix]

61. As an AA woman, I thank you my sista.

All I can say is PREACH!!

[whatchamacallit]

62. Right off the bat

Nonsense and flamebait.

[ericson00]

63. KNR!!

[Spazito]

69. Excellent, well thought out OP...

I hope DUers read this with at least a bit of an open mind.

[jeff47]

77. You could have saved a lot of people a lot of time by just saying

"I haven't bothered to look up his platform or history".

[cali]

81. nah, that wouldn't fit the agenda

[DCBob]

79. Well said.

I think I agree with everything you wrote. I would add I think Bernie has spent way too much time in his secure clean liberal utopia nestled in the NE corner of this country far away from the poor, dirty, crowded, dangerous inner city life many have to deal with on a daily basis. I think he simply doesn't get it... and I doubt he ever will.

[ibegurpard]

93. hey at least she's stop implying it

And come right out and said it.

[MaggieD]

192. Lots and lots have people have come right out and said it

Did you think it was a secret or something?

[frylock]

271. It's no secret that people say and post some pretty stupid shit..

some people are even forced to take a little time out because of the stupid shit they post.

[ibegurpard]

369. I was talking about YOU

[MaggieD]

371. And I agree with the myriad of others

Saying precisely the same thing.

[ibegurpard]

392. you and the other PUMAs?

Who tried to use racist dog whistles against the black man last time and trying the opposite this time?

[seabeyond]

409. what is it with a thread of men all of a sudden yelling PUMA. everyone run scared. that would be

the sanders supporters this time around that refuse to vote for clinton if she wins. are you a puma?

and the misogynist whistle was certainly being blown too, as i supported obama and had to go stand with clinton during the misogynist crap thrown her way.

[progressoid]

505. Lots and lots. So....14? 52? 11%?

How many is lots and lots in your objective research?

[Truprogressive85]

84. wow

Are there supporters of Sen.Sanders that come off as white privileged elitists yes ,but sorry to tell you same goes for HRC supporters who feel that she is entitled to the nominee

You stated that HRC has been a champion of "policy proposals that actually impact the symptoms of racial injustice"
really like ?

I find it find funny when non POC want to call out other people racist yet they themselves have not check their own privileged

[William769]

86. Kick & highly recommended!

Thanks!

[Jackilope]

87. #3 -- not a Democrat

He is even better. I am a McGovern Democratic Party type. I cannot tell you how utterly repulsed I am at the Third Way, DLC, Blue Dog DINOs, and selling out of the party over the decades. I am so tired of choosing the lesser of evils and watching Democratic Party leaders cave and move further right into corporatist mode. I thought we had something with 2008 Obama. Then he picked Rahm Emanuel and Arne Duncan. The TPP move is another huge disappointment.

So, your #3 argument falls short, unless you loves yourself "Third Way Pseudo Democrat", in which case I congratulate you on the ironic numbering in your list. No doubt Hillary will approve Keystone Pipeline, ram TPP through and Wall St. need not lose any sleep. Congrats on your "democrat". Truthfully, count me out in remaining a registered Democratic Party member if we continue morphing into Republican Lite.

You obviously haven't seen the energy or heard the comments in the crowd from fellow Sanders enthusiasts. These are people as tired as I am and getting involved in volunteering. Many are getting involved for the first time. It reminds me much of 2008 -- except Sanders has held these issues and principled stance for decades and he truly isn't tied into corporate money or obligation to anyone but the people.

I have hopes we are at a long overdue tipping point and on a better course and demanding better representation.

[ibegurpard]

88. I stopped at MaggieD

Eom

[heaven05]

90. great post

and makes sense with a LOT of truth about BS and his supporters.

[retrowire]

91. Well thought out opinion

but I think alot of your issues with Bernie are pretty superficial.

only point 1 has any real grit to it, the rest are kinda silly.

"won't support bernie because of his supporters" is the probably the silliest meme I see everywhere. his supporters don't matter, do you want a good president or not? I'm not tossing Hillary aside because of supporters, I judge her bases on her actions. he supporters don't represent her, neither does Bernie's.

he's worked plenty and got plenty done in his career, sorry he doesn't have the fame and name recognition as Hillary.

and him not being a Democrat is pretty bad reasoning too. I'd prefer it if this nation was united and not divided amongst 2 parties but hey, if red vs blue matter that much to you, knock yourself out.

[MaggieD]

260. I gotta think that if so many of his supporters......

... exhibit that kind of cluelessness, there is a reason. And that common reason seems to be Bernie.

[retrowire]

380. Well we're both US Citizens.

You vote for Hillary. I'll vote for Bernie.

[cascadiance]

98. Let's try to break down your post here...

First of all, just because a given policy of his doesn't ONLY focus on helping POC doesn't make it "wrong". Helping the 99% in general over the 1% in my book is right. And many of his proposals help POC more, and many perhaps those that statistically don't help POC more, but help in general people lower on the economic ladder. That in my book is not WRONG, especially when it serves as an economic stimulus that the country's economy sorely needs that it's not getting when the benefits only go to the rich, that so many politicians are paid to perpetuate. Just about every one of our candidates in both major parties except Bernie Sanders.

1) If college is free, then POC can take advantage of it as much as poor white people (or other races). Now, you say that it is because in K-12 that POC don't get enough education to help them qualify for free college? There's a point there, but you're not making a point that Hillary is supporting helping K-12 kids more than Bernie. And transaction fees on Wall Street is NOT targeted at 401ks or pension funds, but on SPECULATIVE TRADING that has made the rich richer, and everyone else that wants to have legitimate trading where one isn't doing high frequency trading is more of a victim of the price fluctuations, etc. due to that trading when such taxes are not in place. And why limit it to only community college the way Hillary does. If a POC or other person of limited means has the capacity to be able to go to a major college and contribute to research that university is engaged in to make a big difference in the technology that helps drive our economic well-being, WHY should they only be limited to going to community college? You're distorting this point pretty massively, and Bernie has it hands down!

The rest of the world is giving their kids free college and is putting their kids at an advantage over us in so doing. Even India gives their kids free college bachelor's degrees, and even if those schools aren't as highly regarded as ours, they can come over here for a masters and just put their college savings in for a masters degree, and our kids have to pay for both bachelor's degrees and masters degrees, and in high tech fields are likely not to want to invest in that, when the PTB help companies use Indian temporary workers as H-1B employees to be hired instead of Americans at cheaper rates as indentured servants.

So, Sanders is "obvlivious" to programs like Head Start and other pre-school and K-12 programs? Hell, he TAUGHT preschoolers through Head Start back in the 60's when Hillary was a Goldwater Girl!

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927.html#.VdIx6Sx3khJ

He bounced around for a few years, working stints in New York as an aide at a psychiatric hospital and teaching preschoolers for Head Start, and in Vermont researching property taxation for the Vermont Department of Taxes and registering people for food stamps for a nonprofit called the Bread and Law Task Force.

The falsehoods of this OP just continue to build up with its effort of propaganda for Clinton!

You and Clinton obviously want the corporate crowd in banks to be able to gamble with our hard earned money in banks without Glass-Steagall bill protection. I'm sorry, but that is NOT what most Americans want done with their money. You say the problem is the lax regulation of "investment banks and the housing industry". Our home loans shouldn't be bulk sold on Wall Street and subject to the GAMBLING that occurred with them without Glass-Steagall protection that would have kept that from happening, if our home loans weren't being the toys of the gamblers to play with. Why do you like the wealthy class so much? What have they done for you, even if they might be helping Clinton a lot?

So do you REALLY think there's an honest "trade union" in SLAVE LABOR infested Malaysia which is a part of the TPP, and that the race to the bottom corporations that profited from NAFTA and many other trade agreements in that goal that have screwed us won't move to Malaysia for their "bottom" labor force to keep their costs low while their execs can continue to inflate their 300-400/1 ratio of salaries over the average workers that used to be 20-30 to 1 before the Reagan "revolution" that you and Hillary people seem to love so much screwed our economy over with the newer free trade agreements that have inflated our trade deficits and screwed our jobs here. We live in a global economy, but only we aren't doing things to protect our jobs and industry here where other countries are using things like VAT taxes and currency manipulation along with other policies to have them have higher net exports to us, which inflates our trade deficit, and has them now own us more like we are a third world country now than many of them used to be. WHY! It's because so many SUCKERS believe this "free trade" BS that has screwed those that aren't at the top for so many years.

So you really want to also label Martin Luther King to be "inept" like Bernie is for believing in the same way MLK did that "dumb economic equality" is also very important to helping POC with their problems of inequality in our society and needs to be solved along with other forms of inequality faced by POC that Bernie has also fought his life for (A LOT longer than Clinton has) to help fix? If you believe that MLK and Bernie didn't and don't "get it", then I'm sorry but YOU are the one that is clueless! And leave it to you that probably shares those in Seattle's POV that we're all "white supremacists", to push the notion of Bernie being "an old out of touch white guy" to show how you are more concerned about racial division than Bernie is?

So, why is he "completely wrong" (and MLK who basically said the same thing) about classism being a big problem for POC as well? Huh? EXPLAIN! Don't just give cheap judgements!

Bernie Sanders is "clueless" regarding gay rights and gay marriage? NO! YOU are clueless! Here's a link to show why since you don't want to back up your labels of him!

http://www.bustle.com/articles/79951-bernie-sanders-views-on-gay-marriage-show-hes-been-a-supporter-for-a-long-time

So Hillary Clinton has been on board for a "longer time" than Bernie on racial justice? Huh? Really? More of this BS? Where was Hillary when this photo in 1962/63 of Bernie Sanders protesting racial segregation was taken? Maybe getting ready to be a Goldwater Girl then? And you do know that Goldwater opposed the 1964 Civll Rights Act don't you? I wonder why Hillary liked him so much then!



https://medium.com/%40alanschultz/why-choose-bernie-b13982c7c806

2) So, working with even Republicans to get an audit of the Fed done, which HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE, is "accomplishing nothing"? How many other progressive Democrats who are trying to get legislation through an obstructionist Republican congress are also "accomplishing nothing"? Just because Hillary didn't have to be in congress when we had the worst times of filibustering by any party, and a Republican majority House doesn't mean she wouldn't have had to deal with the same thing if she were serving in congress then too. More lies!

And it was BLM "representatives" that REFUSED to talk to him AND refused to let him speak at events where others were gathered to hear about things like Social Security, Medicare, and Immigration (Netroots). And you criticize him for that RUDE and completely unconstructive behavior of THEIRS? Hiring Symone Sanders to speak LONG to introduce his rally in Portland BEFORE that event in Seattle isn't exactly "ignoring" BLM is it?

3) So you would rather have voted for "Democrats" like Strom Thurmond, just because they were "Democrats" at the time? HUH? Um... He doesn't DISS Democrats, he CAUCUSES with them! And in my book and many other people's book, he shares viewpoints with the great FDR far more than any other so-called "Democrats" that are registered as such, but have more real homage to Third Way agendas that are rewarding the corporate donors rather than the people that the Democratic Party of the past used to support more!

So, would you rather have a Republican president by him running as an independent instead as you seem to suggest he should do? HUH? I guess that would give you more reason to hate him like you probably do Nader, and any other third party candidate out there, whether or not they really believe more in serving the interests of the people than the currently corporate beholden Democratic Party leadership does. And if you really wanted more views being in the public space through third party candidates running but not risk the Dems losing, then why don't you make a strong point about which candidates support instant runoff voting, which would have that happen?

4. YOU are coming off as a racist when you call him an old white man, dismissing all of his work trying to build a better society for all races and minority views, etc. You are failing trying to label us as such! I'm frankly pretty tired of that crap like so many others are here!

Why don't you try to find an "original" racist comment by ANYONE here supporting Bernie Sanders. If there are any here, it is in response to ORIGINAL racist comments directed at them with no basis at all, like those in Seattle did! If there are any, they are a miniscule minority and they don't speak for solid majority of the rest of us here!

[Qutzupalotl]

156. Well done and thank you. eom

[hueymahl]

267. Thread winner

I really do appreciate the hard work that the OP put into her reasons and for sharing them. It is an interesting look into an HRC supporter's mind. Note that I do view it as ONE poster's insight, and I am not making the mistake of attributing this one poster's views to all HRC supporters.

In the end, for all the reasons put forward above, the OP is just more partisan political spin. Reading it for a second time, I almost want to say it was written by more than one person. Very careful and considered word choices, non-matching (style, not grammar) sentence structures and memes repeated from other HRC on-air surrogates. But I have no proof of that, so I will take it for what it is proposed to be, just one person's opinion.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts. I find Cacadiance's response to be more compelling.

[Go Vols]

394. Great post

[passiveporcupine]

605. The truth will out

[sheshe2]

99. Great OP

Thank you Maggie D.

[gregcrawford]

101. What pack of lies!

Maybe you've been spoon-fed this witless drivel; maybe you actually believe it, I don't really care. #2 is grossly inaccurate and totally offensive. Sanders is one of my senators, and with a combat veteran son, I know first-hand how responsive and helpful Sanders was when we needed his intercession with a VA controlled by the evil minions of Dickhead Cheney & Co. So don't you dare try to tell me he has accomplished nothing. That is a bald-faced lie, and I seriously doubt that you can provide documentation to support any of your other contentions.

You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how misinformed and misguided it may be, but keep your malice to yourself; the vast majority of the people here on DU are better than that.

[Dawgs]

110. Pretty much all of it is full of hate and misinformation.

It's quite sad that so many agree with it.

[gregcrawford]

220. Too true.

And I cannot, for the life of me, understand WHY people resort to such venomous diatribes full of spiteful deceit that is so easily discredited. It stretches credulity beyond its breaking point to believe that factions within the Clinton campaign aren't behind much of this, and the DNC itself is likely complicit; Wasserman Schultz has not acquitted herself admirably. I suspect they miscalculated very badly, thinking that Bernie would be little more than amusing foil for Hillary the Great. Recalibrating... recalibrating...!

I'd expect this kind of crap from a Rove or O'Keefe. It is disappointing to find it here.

[MaggieD]

336. He passed ONE bill in 25 years

You may be thrilled by that. I think it indicates he is pretty much useless.

[lunamagica]

501. Funny no one has addressed that point

I would be interesting to have an OP stating just that. They then could not go on tangents.

[George II]

520. I was looking for his legislative accomplishments but was unable to find it. I guess with only....

....one passed bill in 25 years it was easy to overlook.

[bvar22]

596. One Bill he didn't pass in 25 years...

...is the Authorization to use Military Force in Iraq to which he voted "NO!", and gave an impassioned speech against such folly.

OTOH: Ms Clinton voted YES!, and was one of the biggest cheerleaders.

When talking about "accomplishments" between these two,
THIS is the BIGGEST issue of all.

Hillary...helped kill over a MILLION innocent Iraqis, and displaced 5 Million more. Oopsie.

All other "legislative accomplishments" pale in comparison.

[shenmue]

102. Finally

[markpkessinger]

104. Glass-Steagall wouild have prevented the secujritization of mortgages . . .

. . . that is to say, mortgage-backed securities, which played a huge role in the collapse in 2008. Perhaps you've forgotten . . .

[cascadiance]

141. And I have a sibling of mine who used to work at Countrywide and subsequently at BofA...

... who at the time was very concerned about what was happening with this securitization too as an insider at the time.

[MaggieD]

263. No it would not have

Glass Steagall has nothing to do with that. And you make my point for me. If Bernie spoke to you like an adult you would not think something so absurd.

[markpkessinger]

276. Yes, it would have . . .

. . . and this has nothing to do with what "Bernie told me." What an obnoxious comment! I have laid out the argument more fully here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027086008

[MaggieD]

284. Your argument has no basis in fact

[Recursion]

646. No, it wouldn't have

Mortgage securitization has gone on for literally centuries, and Glass-Steagall didn't address it.

This kind of pandering, incidentally, is what turns me off about Sanders and Warren. They know perfectly well that their supporters are flat-out wrong about what Glass-Steagall did, and they don't care and keep up the illusion.

[azurnoir]

106. wow just wow where to begin here

first with the implied classism/racism in this paragraph

His policy prescriptions are wrong in many cases, IMO. For instance, free college for “qualified” students is not something that will truly help PoC (and is not designed to). Their K-12 schools are horribly underfunded. First we must fix that problem or his free college pitch is just another pander to middle class white kids. And he wants to pay for it off the backs off fees that impact 401K and pension funds. That’s ridiculous. HRC’s and Obama’s proposals for free community college are much more viable.

so let me ask are you saying poor PoC just are not smart enough/well educated enough to get into a 4 year collage? Not to mention Bernie never excluded community collages in his statement, what would the qualifications be, in fact link us up to where those are laid out by any of the candidates or Obama , what would the GPD have to be, are you saying poor PoC simply can not make that GPD? And paying it with fees that impact 401K and pension funds doesn't seem like pandering to the White middle class to me, in fact that in large part is who will be paying for it

I am not a PoC, but I am a lesbian. I spent my first 20 years in the closet so that I could have a shot at economic equality. And it worked. But when I came out of the closet 15 years ago after I was economically successful I did not find some sort of civil rights nirvana awaiting me. I still couldn’t marry my partner. I still had to raise a child whose parents could not marry. I still had to deal with discrimination day in and day out. My son was still bullied in school because he had two Moms. ANY GLBT person that has economic security can tell you that economic security does not confer civil rights. Despite what a lot of straight white privileged people seem to believe. It’s just bullshit. And I do not want a president that is so clueless on such an important issue.

maybe you haven't done your homework but Bernie supported LGBT right s before it became a political 'fashion statement' unlike another candidate I can name

from The Advocate

But Sanders has also been a steadfast and reliable supporter of LGBT equality, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act when it passed the Senate in 2013 and even calling on President Obama to evolve already and support marriage equality in 2011. He's a cosponsor of the federal LGBT-inclusive Student Non-Discrimination Act and has consistently voted against bills seeking to amend the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage, while cosponsoring a bill that would repeal the remaining portions of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act. Sanders has a perfect score of 100 percent on the Human Rights Campaign's latest Congressional Equality Index.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/election/2015/04/30/bernie-sanders-most-lgbt-friendly-candidate

Here's Hillary on Marriage Equality before it polled well

[whatchamacallit]

115. Don't expect anything more reasoned or nuanced than an imbecilic battle cry n/t

[azurnoir]

200. I expect

[L0oniX]

212. Nailed it. n/t

[Gothmog]

116. Great OP

I really enjoyed it. I am also not a POC but I have a daughter who is LGBT. Both of my daughters and my son all are supporting Hillary Clinton for many of the reasons you listed above

[SoapBox]

117. OK then...

Sheesh...just can't give up on the racist garbage.

Well, when you mind is closed, it's closed.

[FloridaBlues]

122. Well said. &#128079;

[charliea]

125. We can agree to disagree

I'm not a member of the Democratic party, I'm not poor (or rich). I'm an invisible old hetero white guy.

Let's lay some ground rules: I will not vote for any of the lunatics vying for the Republican nomination, or as I've called it to friends 'the billionaire sweepstakes', and I will vote for the eventual Democratic nominee.

I don't know these elitist Bernie supporters you mention, but then I only know the people I communicate with personally (I don't use social media sites, except to follow one person on Tumblr) and even my more conservative friends think he's a breath of fresh air. Other than that I'm more interested in what the candidates say, and I like what he's saying. Since, as you say, he's not a Democrat I think its a plus in his favor as that whole party has edged rightward for the last 25 years (yes I got to watch in dismay). To me it's like Howard Dean and his 'I'm from the democratic wing of the Democratic party', speech. Exciting. I especially like that he's pledged not to run as an independent in the general election.

And if 'company they keep', is a factor Ms. Clinton has gotten a lot of support from Wall Street, defense contractors, etc. all of which give me pause also Clinton voted for the Iraq war and Sanders didn't, that's still a biggie to me.

Let's put it this way, I live in Oregon, a very late primary state, and if the decision is still undecided between the Democratic candidates when it comes time for my state's primary I'll join the party for the first time in my life just to vote for him.

[roomtomove]

127. A refutation

1.
Is anyone else addressing the "obvious" problems? Not to the extent Sanders does, if at all. Hillary's proposals are primarily a response to Sanders.
Free college is a commendable idea. I'm glad he brought it up. Let's figure out how to do it, rather than debunk it.
Glass Steagal was the major cause of the bankster problems. To deny that its reinstatement won't help fix the problem displays sheer ignorance of the issues.
Look up Bernie's voting history before blabbing nonsense.
2. Look up Bernie's voting record. It appears you are a little annoyed at Bernie because he didn't recognize you.
3. I would diss the Dems too for their abysmal performance. In fact he has caucused many years with the Dems. so you would criticize him strictly because he is an "outsider'???? You may as well vote Republican then, at least you will have a president who can "work" with Congress.
4. "Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists." >>>>> this is the type of anecdotal evidence made popular by the Republicans, i.e......I knew a guy......or........ It's f...g cold in NY during winter...there is not global warning....

[Little Star]

129. What you said MaggieD! k&r

[BlueJazz]

139. I believe Mrs. Clinton is popular with women because she is a woman.

I can't relate to her, although I will vote for her if she's chosen.

[sadoldgirl]

140. Who cares?

Opinions are just that only, and you have only one
vote, the same as everybody else.

I attended one of his rallies, and talked to the people
afterwards. Everyone I talked to was happy with
Bernie's agenda.

Let's see how big the rallies are of the other candidates
and compare the audience's satisfaction.

[seabeyond]

167. yes. correct. some people are going to support sanders. some people are not gonna be impressed with

sanders and support one of the dems running.

that is the way election works. lol.

[HassleCat]

148. OK, I guess

I have been trying to convince my fellow Sanders supporters to remain positive, to list the reasons they do support Sanders, not the reasons they don't support his opponents. I wish everybody would talk about the positive attributes of their favorite candidates, and not indulge in speculation, guilt by association, etc. All that produces is longer and longer lists of complaints about the various candidates, all of whom are Democrats, and one of whom we will be supporting for president next fall. I don't want to get down on anybody, but I am looking ahead to the general election.

[stupidicus]

151. obviously because you like the rightwing-lite HC better

who cares about all the turds you failed to sufficiently polish before tossing them at the "old white man".

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”

The only thing HC "gets", is the "unqualified" support of people like you. Gee, what is she, the fist female messiah or something?

[cantbeserious]

152. We See The World Very, Very Differently

eom

[Ed Suspicious]

188. This. /\

[YodaJedi215]

163. Bernie and FDR would have been great friends!

Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton have hurt the Democratic Party Brand.

FDR, Kennedy, Carter, Johnson, would have never supported NAFTA! Just Like Bernie

FDR, Kennedy, Carter, Johnson, would have never force democrats to pass a Republican Health Care Bill? Like Barack Obama done, which loss Democrats the House and Senate, and numerous Government Houses around the USA.

If FDR had dealt with 2008 crisis, the GOP would be out of business! and Bernie would have done what FDR would have done, tax the rich, and done massive infrastructure jobs, that paid great wages, to help the middle class.

It is OK not to like Bernie, However it is not OK, to think Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, would be friends with FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter.

Political insiders now say, rank and file union members like Trump more than they like Hillary, because Trump hates the TPP! WOW

Yes! Bernie could have been best pals with FDR!

FDR is by far the greatest DEMOCRAT president EVER!!!

[BumRushDaShow]

573. "FDR is by far the greatest DEMOCRAT president EVER!!!"

You forgot the "for whites" part.

I.e., FDR kept my black father in a segregated army during WWII. Pullman Porter activist and union founder A. Philip Randolph confronted FDR multiple times about it and was essentially dismissed.

http://todayinclh.com/?event=a-philip-randolph-meets-with-fdr-in-white-house-protests-segregation-in-military

It wasn't until Truman issued an EO that the beginning of the desegregation of the military began.

The FDR fantasizing needs to stop. Of course by calling FDR a "Democrat president" versus a "Democratic President", one wonders about the true intent of the post.

[BlueCaliDem]

656. They're coming out of the woodwork and descending on ALL liberal/Democratic sites

all across the interwebs. Low post counts doesn't necessarily denote a Crossroads lackey posing as a Liberal/Socialist/Progressive, but it sure is uncanny how many there are in this thread alone.

It's no secret that the GOP would rather run against Bernie Sanders in the G.E. He's weak when it comes to the minority vote - according to all polls polling minorities. Hillary Clinton has 70-80% of the Black vote and about 73% of the Latino vote. She has about 29 Democratic Senators and 92 Democratic House Representatives (according to fivethirtyeight, while Bernie Sanders has none.

Oh yeah. The GOP would rather run against Bernie Sanders in the G.E., all right. Figures don't lie.

[seabeyond]

667. i read an OP by a libertarian, griping that if not allowed to criticize about benghazi or the emails

without being accused of being repug, hten they are being picked on.

now, lets see.

we all know sanders is 'reaching out' to the repugs, libertarians, teabaggers, populist.... and now they are like telling us, we have to allow them to "criticize" clinton in a rw talking point.

this becomes more and more fascinating.

[Jamaal510]

661. +1

[PoliticAverse]

166. So you were concerned that 15-years ago "I still couldn’t marry my partner", but you "like" Clinton

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:14 PM - Edit history (1)

who in 2008 still opposed same-sex marriage and you don't like Sanders who supported
same-sex marriage more than 15 years ago?

[frylock]

259. weird, hunh?

[Picking Dem]

482. That's pretzel logic...

If MaggieD can't see that, then there's no reasoning with her.

[Puzzledtraveller]

673. Hillary backers just thought they were guaranteed.

If there is one thing the ego despises above all is being wrong, admitting it for some is worse than death. This goes for a lot of things when people invest so much belief and then have to face a possible let down. For many, the fact that someone else is polling better and has widespread support who is not their candidate is too much to accept.

[bowens43]

169. wow, so much crap in such a small sack........

the hillary operatives are out in force. Lies will get you nowhere

[MaggieD]

189. Operatives?

Can you debate the issues I brought up, or can you only personally attack the messenger?

[truedelphi]

178. Well we almost completely disagree.

And for you to state so casually that it was not banks per se that failed but mortgage companies is just wrong.

We bailed out the biggest of the Big Banks, with over 22 trillions of dollars of Main Street America's money, all because these big banks gambled on complex derivatives.

If you don't understand any of that, then you should not be making an OP about about various candidates and the issues related to the economy.

[rock]

183. Excellent post

K&R +1

[L0oniX]

193. Enjoy your oligarchy cause money is everything.

Quoting you... #4.

white privileged elitists

Bwahahahahah

[MaggieD]

321. White privileged elitist does not mean what you think it means

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67904-how-to-explain-white-privilege-exists-7-common-arguments-debunked

[passiveporcupine]

611. Your link explains white priviledge

which I suspect most liberals acknowledge. But you are using the term white privilege elitist

Perhaps you don't know what the word elitist means?

[tularetom]

196. I'm sure that Senator Sanders will be devastated that YOU don't support him

But I think you deserve credit for the most self absorbed, pompous post of the week.

[Picking Dem]

483. ....full of falsehoods

[Politicub]

199. "ANY GLBT person... can tell you that economic security does not confer civil rights"

Right-f'ing-on for this point. Economic security is an important thing, but it in no way confers civil rights.

Getting things done requires the ability to build a coalition. Paying attention to politics for the past 30 years or so has shown me time and time again that it takes working with people unlike you and that you may disagree with to do the heavy lifting of getting policies across the finish line.

[MaggieD]

213. It's an issue so obvious to me....

... that I cannot even fathom why he and his supporters don't get it. Makes me shake my head, and really has become a litmus test for me on his candidacy. I do not think I could even vote for him in the general at this point. I might just have to leave a big blank spot there if he were to win the nomination.

[freshwest]

359. At first, until you explained it, I thought your OP good but harsh. Then I thought about your son,

and the contact was made with me and my life. I am of the opinion that social justice must come first, as you say so eloquently, that money didn't spare you. You truly understand the problem.

I feel that bias, prejudice or social injustice are the creators of economic justice. Prejudice and the dismissal of the concerns of others is used as the justification for hurting 'the other' economically, consciously or cluelessly.

You said the things I have thought as I finally left my fondness for BS behind in the face of the actions of others. And it's not just the actions of supporters of BS that have turned me off, as at one time I felt the same about HRC supporters in 2008. That influenced my 'ick' factor regarding her.

I was certainly inundated with decades of the GOP anti-Hillary since the 90s. Knowing the source, I didn't believe the charges about her character, but still uncomfortable. As that is what happens when lies are repeated, after a while one may give in without support to be otherwise. I didn't have a thing against her. I just felt that there was something wrong.

Thanks for voicing, better than I could have, my own misgivings about Sanders. But I will vote for whoever the Democratic Party does nominate. I don't feel that Sanders can ever be an effective president. The same opposition will be in place as have dogged my President Obama's terms.

And he just doesn't seem to have the skills to get the Congress to work for him. He is more an agitator than effective. And I and the people I care about don't have the means to survive a GOP presidency.

Thanks again for coming from a similar place as me and being willing to take the heat on this here. I get tired of seeing people have their writing called BS or lies or whatever when it's just an opinion. And your piece is purely opinion, not claiming to be factual, although I agree with your analysis.

[ibegurpard]

376. please do and shut up about it.

From one LGBT person to another.

[MaggieD]

385. No, I won't shut up about it

But thanks for helping prove my point about Bernie supporters.

[ibegurpard]

387. looked in a mirror lately?

[Cha]

527. Exactly.. all that BS supporter has are personal insults in BS's name.

[Picking Dem]

484. And we have our PUMA confirmation! (not you, ibegurpard)

I pledge to vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is. If it's Clinton, my poor liver will have to take a beating before filling in the ballot.

[senz]

203. Oh, excuse me, I seem to have wandered into the restroom by mistake. Sorry! nt

[MaggieD]

206. Why do so many Bernie supporters resort to personal attacks?

This thread is full of examples of why I would never want to be known as a Bernie supporter. It is about as appealing to me as marching with tea partiers for some cause.

[cali]

218. oh the irony of you saying that after penning the op, is delicious. cognitive dissonance,

Mags, cognitive dissonance.

[ismnotwasm]

226. No. Clinton Supporters aren't the ones who are being widely criticized

For, let's call it "over-zealousness"

Sanders supporter are. All over the place actually. An interesting phenomena.

[cali]

238. lol. the op is full of mendacious attacks on Sanders supporters

And the history of the op on that, is a humdinger.

[ismnotwasm]

256. The OP is not lying

She is stating her opinion.

Sanders supporters are being criticized from our very own left. They should listen

[seabeyond]

265. sander supporter making video, hart a sanders supporter are having conversation about sanders

supporters, maybe sanders supporters ought to listen instead of the knee jerk accusations, ya think?

[Romulox]

246. Um, yes they are. You have been, specifically, on your current disastrous thread. nt

[ismnotwasm]

258. What current disasterous thread?

Politics are far wider than DU

[seabeyond]

250. she stated out reasons. you started an op of name calling and ... the end. you dont see a difference

[passiveporcupine]

615. I especially loved this turn of phrase

The elitism and stank of white privilege that emanates from so many that cheer him is a total turn off.

cognitive dissonance indeed.

[mckara]

207. HRC Soldout to the Neoliberals

Neoliberalism is the greatest threat to our democratic system and the planet. How can you call yourself "informed" when you obviously don't understand the banking crisis, the purpose of free trade agreements, and how centerist Democrats have soldout the American people?

[MaggieD]

223. In what way?

How about some specifics?

[mckara]

335. Rubinomics

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 06:46 PM - Edit history (1)

It distressing me that you do not know what I am talking about. You need to read economic history of the West from WWI forward. This is something you must undertake yourself, although I can recommend some avenues to explore and some books for you. These recommendations are a good start. Feel free to contact me if you want to continue studying the subject.

First, learn about former Secretary of the Treasury Robert Rubin's relationship with the Clintons and how his influence changed American financial policy during Bill's administration. Ruben has been the head of Citibank since leaving politics. Citibank is a commercial bank that was insolvent during the crash of 2008 because of the practices he, Bill Clinton, and a Republican congress made possible with the repeal of Glass-Steagall and his actions at Citibank. BTW several other commercial banks were part of the problem, too, such as Bank of America, Country-wide Credit, Washington Mutual, etc, etc. HRC's support from Wall Street investment bankers, hedge fund directors, and other financial speculators tells us of her involvement and support of neoliberal economics and the financialization of life in the West and around the world.

A few book recommendations:

Michael Hudson is a professor at the University of Missouri whose résumé is very impressive from his work on Wall Street and with the federal government. Richard Westra is a Canadian professor who edited an excellent compilation of papers written in graduate studies. Ha Joon Chang is an economics professor at Cambridge.

Hudson, M. Super Imperialism. The Origin and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance
Westra, Richard. (ed.) Confronting Global Neoliberalism
Chang, H. 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism
Chang, H. Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism

[MaggieD]

338. His name is Rubin

But thanks for schooling me. LOL! You don't even know his name and you're going to tell me all about him? Where was he in 1978, which was the last time they actually enforced Glass Steagall?

[mckara]

358. OK, Rubinomics

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 10:52 PM - Edit history (2)

Ok, I corrected the spelling error. I'm historian and accuracy does count. Thanks for pointing out my minor misspelling. Now, you can read the books and do your research before telling the world, again, how you are such a font of knowledge.

It is distressing me that you do not know what I am talking about. You need to read economic history of the West from WWI forward. This is something you must undertake yourself, although I can recommend some avenues to explore and some books for you. These recommendations are a good start. Feel free to contact me if you want to continue studying the subject.

First, learn about former Secretary of the Treasury Robert Rubin's relationship with the Clintons and how his influence changed American financial policy during Bill's administration. Rubin has been the head of Citibank since leaving politics. Citibank is a commercial bank that was insolvent during the crash of 2008 because of the practices he, Bill Clinton, and a Republican congress made possible with the repeal of Glass-Steagall and his actions at Citibank. BTW several other commercial banks were part of the problem, too, such as Bank of America, Country-wide Credit, Washington Mutual, etc, etc. HRC's support from Wall Street investment bankers, hedge fund directors, and other financial speculators tells us of her involvement and support of neoliberal economics and the financialization of life in the West and around the world.

A few book recommendations:

Michael Hudson is a professor at the University of Missouri whose résumé is very impressive from his work on Wall Street and with the federal government. Richard Westra is a Canadian professor who edited an excellent compilation of papers written in graduate studies. Ha Joon Chang is an economics professor at Cambridge.

Hudson, M. Super Imperialism. The Origin and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance
Westra, Richard. (ed.) Confronting Global Neoliberalism
Chang, H. 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism
Chang, H. Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism

[mckara]

660. I Thought of Our Conversation When I Listened to This:

Ring of Fire On Free Speech TV | Episode 157 - Bankster Locusts Are EVERYWHERE

[ismnotwasm]

230. Say what?

[restorefreedom]

221. another "bernie sucks because" thread.

the fear is growing almost by the day.

[MaggieD]

234. I honestly don't fear him at all....

I have never thought he had a chance of winning, and I still do not. I guess anything could happen, but I think he is dead in the water because while he seems to have the white privilege vote sewed up I do not seeing him making any inroads with any other minorities (LGBT, Latinos/Hispanics, Blacks). He might win NH, and even Iowa. But when the primaries happen in places that aren't hugely white he will not be able to compete, IMO.

I guess it soothes his supporters to think his non-supporters are afraid. Whatever. The objective of my post was to maybe, perhaps, give you all a tiny bit of insight into why the majority of Dems do NOT support him. Maybe if you understood that you would stop insulting the rest of us, or treating us like we are stupid. We aren't.

[restorefreedom]

463. if anyone screams privilege

it is hillary with her massive speaking fees, thousands per plate fundraisers, and her service to the 1%.

you are free to think he can't win. i happen to feel the same is true of hillary. even if by some miracle she gets the nom, she will get creamed in the general.

different strokes, i guess.....

[seabeyond]

471. as she deals with sexism and misogyny thru out her career. even sanders has made that point and

known.

that will once again give evidence and emphasis why economic equality does not rule.

[passiveporcupine]

616. misogyny and sexism

what category do you put "clueless old white men" in?

[seabeyond]

617. patriarchy?

[passiveporcupine]

626. Bernie Sanders does not represent patriarchy.

Bill Clinton might. I know many of the GOP do. Sanders? No way.

[misterhighwasted]

355. It's not fear at all. It's total disgust at the RW points dragged around by people who call

..themselves Progressive & Dem
I've cringed at the sight of links here on DU, copied & pasted from Right Wing hate sites & god forbid we begin to honor the words of the biggest non-progressive/Dem, Ann Coulter.

Keep those fires of flamebait burning by quoting RW spews, What does the word Dem or Progressive really stand for if you reach to the Right Wing hate for proof that your candidate is worthy of either of those two Partys.

Maggie is absolutely calling out this fact.
This behavior will indeed fall on Sanders' shoulders to deal with.

Thank You MaggieD.

[restorefreedom]

462. this was critical of bernie

as i saw it

who gives a shit what that lunatic thinks? this is about bernie's policies and his record, a d his plans for the country.

[Romulox]

233. It's hilarious how the majority of DU's most conservative posters "used" to support Bernie.

It's not fooling anybody, guys.

[MaggieD]

237. I never supported him - not conservative either

Your crystal ball appears to be broken.

The objective of my post was to maybe, perhaps, give you all a tiny bit of insight into why the majority of Dems do NOT support him. Maybe if you understood that you would stop insulting the rest of us, or treating us like we are stupid. We aren't.

[Romulox]

241. There's nothing he could do to earn your support, either. So there's no use in pretending. nt

[MaggieD]

249. Nope - not after Netroots Nation

I will admit I was never a fan. Keep in mind, I have experienced his indifference to liberal advocacy coalitions in a personal way.

But at this point I doubt I could ever vote for him even if he did win the nomination. As I stated in my post, that really, really showed me he really, really doesn't get it. And his mouthing support now, after being embarrassed by BLM twice isn't changing my mind.

[Romulox]

251. Not before, either. You didn't stop caring about inequality after NN; you never started. nt

[MaggieD]

264. Your crystal ball is wrong again

Please stop with the personal attacks presuming you know anything at all about my life. You have demonstrated very clearly that you do not.

[Zorra]

294. Lots of naivete floating around these days, isn't there, Romulux?

"Honest, mom! The dog really did eat me homework, I swear!"

[seabeyond]

306. ya. sanders will get us 15 an hour nationally, single payer, free college, break up the banks.....

LOTS of naivete

[MoveIt]

509. You know its truthy because they all back up the conversion stories with me-too's and high-fives

"I totally support you, and know what you mean, his supporters are the meanest"

But we the targets for this performance art are clearly too dumb to notice

[truebrit71]

236. Concern = Noted

Lovely right-wing talking points though, so well done for that....

[DanTex]

239. This is a well thought-out post and you're getting bashed for it, as expected.

A lot of Bernie supporters are way over the top, but he's still a good man with a good record. It's true that he prioritizes economic issues over social issues. That's how he sees the world. And, it's defensible, given the amount of inequality we have today. But for sure he does that, people denying that are, err, in denial.

I support Hillary, first and foremost, because I think she can beat the GOP and Bernie can't. I like Bernie's stances on issues more than Hillary's in general. On the other hand, Hillary is still a very strong candidate, and like you say, her plans are more realistic and achievable. Basically nothing Bernie has proposed will go anywhere in congress. Then what? Does he compromise or simply accomplish nothing.

I do take issue with your claim that his tax proposal will affect pensions and 401Ks. I've heard this before so I wrote an OP about it, for clarification.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251524826

[questionseverything]

594. your op is a nice surprise

nice to see a hillary supporter defending a bernie idea and actually writing intelligently about it and looking at both sides

[BooScout]

240. Brilliant post!

Eloquently put!

Welcome back!

[Zorra]

245. It's so sad, watching desperate, bitterly disappointed Clinton supporters

spout unpleasant, confused word salad negative propaganda attacks, flailing away aimlessly in frustrated, embarrassing last ditch efforts to resurrect poor Hillary's already long dead campaign.

As a Bernie Sanders supporter, it is extremely difficult to not gloat when I read these pathetic, futile appeals to the uglier side of human nature, agonized cries for attention that are the very last gasps of Clinton's campaign. But, alas, I'm just another lowly, oppressed member of the 99% who understands that the election of Bernie Sanders may be the beginning of real democracy, and real social and economic justice for Americans.

So I gloat.

[heaven05]

252. I gloat also because

that's just what I see in the desperation of BS supporters. I feel very sorry for them.

[Zorra]

268. Aww, you go right on ahead and do that, if it makes you feel better

about the demise of Hillary's campaign.

You have a sad. I get it.

Things will get better after Bernie is nominate.

[heaven05]

272. backatcha!!!!!

we will see who has the last "sad".........

[ismnotwasm]

277. Right?

That cracked me up

[seabeyond]

281. "watching desperate, bitterly disappointed Clinton supporters" you are simply wrong.

[arcane1]

247. "Look at ME!"

We are all terribly impressed with your uninformed and unsought opinion.

Clinton sycophants are getting repetitive and tiresome.

[LynneSin]

248. Oh I support the guy, I just think he is another Howard Dean

I think is very wildly popular but so was Howard Dean. Dean was very popular with the online crowds and all the social media and was pulling in these huge crowds. Online polls were done again and again and showed Dean to be very competitive in the elections. And in the end he barely made a blip in the elections.

I also have always been a huge Joe Biden fan and knew if the guy was going to get into the race he'd be my first choice. And I do know if I'm wrong about Sanders (because in the end I tend to be wrong about many things) then I'd campaign just as hard for Sanders in the fall election as I would if it was Biden, Clinton or any other democrat.

But that's just me.

[seabeyond]

293. if I'm wrong about Sanders... then I'd campaign just as hard for Sanders in the fall election

if I'm wrong about Sanders (because in the end I tend to be wrong about many things) then I'd campaign just as hard for Sanders in the fall election as I would if it was Biden, Clinton or any other democrat.

this is just not a tough one for me.

[onecaliberal]

262. Perhaps if Bernie would hide from the media and only

Speak to pre screened audiences and take money from banks and corporations that he would have to return favors to later. He would be satisfactory to these folks.
Hillary has solutions alright, more of the same corporate takeover.
I'm NOT willing to sell out my unborn grandchildren or future generations.
It's not okay to sell out those less fortunate because "you've got yours". I thought we were all democrats. Hillary supporters are souring more and more people they may need later.

[MaggieD]

273. Are you willing to sell them out if they aren't white?

Because the grand champion of civil rights is completely clueless on the issue of social justice and institutionalized racism. That could not be more clear.

But you articulated something I hadn't been able to put into words. I DO see support for Bernie as selling out minorities of all stripes. That sums up one of my biggest objections to him.

[Vinca]

291. Are you serious? This is a man who has been arrested for civil rights protests.

Good lord . . . just because he grew up in the era of protest that didn't include acting like a spoiled brat pitching a hissy fit you dismiss him? Amazing. Totally amazing. I promised myself I wouldn't comment on this any more, but your assertion makes no sense.

[MaggieD]

303. So what?

You all keep repeating that as if it means something. He believes the same thing every arrogant clueless white privileged person believes. And he's just wrong. The fact that he protested back in the 60's (just like HRC) doesn't make him correct on the issue.

[Vinca]

307. So who do you support? Scott Walker?

Wait, wait. Ben Carson? He's black after all. I'd suggest reading Bernie's books and learning more about him, but your agenda is crystal clear: "Vote Hillary."

[MaggieD]

309. My agenda is to tell you very specific reasons.....

Why I do not support Bernie. So maybe his supporters can stop pretending we are stupid, or uninformed. That's it. But please do carry on insulting and attacking those that do not agree with you with your BS republican crap.

[Vinca]

315. Which Republican crap might that be?

I've been quite civil about the whole Hillary v. Bernie race and have said numerous times I will vote for Hillary in the general if she's the candidate . . . unless you'd rather I don't. In the end we're screwed either way because the Congress controls everything and the House, at least, is gerrymandered to stay GOP until the next census. I swear I'm starting to think it might be best if Trump wins. At least we'd have something HUUUUUUUUGE to laugh about for 4 years.

[Blue_In_AK]

545. It's UUUUUUUUGE, isn't it?

I think the "H" is silent. LOL.

[cyberswede]

337. "He believes the same thing every arrogant clueless white privileged person believes."

Hardly. His positions are head and shoulders above these arrogant clueless white privileged persons.

[MaggieD]

340. IMO, he would be no better

Perhaps not as bad, but certainly no better (for reasons I articulated at length in my OP).

[PoliticAverse]

381. You believe Bernie Sanders would be "certainly no better" than Trump, Jeb or Romney? n/t

[passiveporcupine]

619. He believes the same thing every arrogant clueless white privileged person believes.

This comes across as extremely bigoted.

[passiveporcupine]

618. You are so wrong

I can't even express my dismay at what you have said here. It isn't Bernie who is clueless.

You also must not have read Bernie's site regarding his racial justice issues. And no...supporting Bernie is not selling out minorities. Supporting the corporate player is selling out minorities.

[ericson00]

266. This was needed weeks ago

But we'll written, you've truly said best we myself and other drowned out voices have been struggling to do in one post

[MaggieD]

312. Thank you....

I had plenty of time to think it over while on a timeout for having the temerity to support someone other than St Bernard.

[passiveporcupine]

621. Now you are calling him a dog?

Stay classy.

[mmonk]

269. .

[LiberalLovinLug]

279. Balderdash

And I resent that he is introducing lots of legislation now that he knows is not passable

I read this as…"I want to vote for a candidate that proposes policies that have the full support of Republicans, and the Wall Street corporate elite because those policies will be "passable" and then my candidate will look "successful". Its very telling that you also support the TPP which also has major Republican support. A trade agreement that would allow a kind of table-leveling effect. That is corps can then sue countries for "lost of profits" if they enact legislation, like environmental laws, or labor standard laws, or healthcare advancements that would cost those companies more money, thus lessen their profit margins. Resulting in each country in the TPP perpetually cutting their own table leg to appease the corporate masters until the table top is resting as low as it can get, resulting in all of the nations workers reduced to third world standards.

Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists.

This kind of race baiting is the lowest of the low IMO. "come off as" those are the key words. They come off as that because people like you perpetuate this falsity. Its sickening to watch this wedge being stomped down deeper when you know full well that in the bigger picture its the left of ALL races, (those who lean politically more towards Sanders and Warren) whether they have called themselves Democrats or not, through the decades that are the most strident in battling institutional as well as local specific racism.

That people were upset that a few "activists", the leader an ex-Palin supporter that only a month before lamented on FB how it was too bad that the GOP did not groom her, highjacked their maybe one chance to listen to Bernie speak is perfectly understandable. That you would twist that frustration into them acting "racist" is appalling. Imagine if a few radicalized LGBT folks, led by a former Bush button wearer log cabin R, stood up during a speech by Hillary to the NAACP, demanding she address her fake and tepid support of gay rights. How she only switched to supporting gay marriage after the tide had already turned. Even to the point of not allowing her to even respond or continue her speech. And if Hillary supporters in the crowd criticized those activists for not allowing them to hear Hillary on issues, including those that are important to the black community, that they would be pounded on message boards for being homophobic bigots. And then a few irrational hot-headed Bernie supporters push this false meme into the gay community, including that Hillary supporters are made up of a "huge" number of anti-LGBT bigots until it starts taking hold as a fact after being repeated enough times. How'd you like that?

This kind of deliberate wedging is gold for the Fox News panels. They have been looking for a "Dean scream" and you and others are handing to them on a silver platter.

[raindaddy]

280. Starting with the banks..

If I remeber right wasn't Bank Of America and Wells Fargo on the list that of banks that were bailed out by the government?

And who in their right mind supports any bank that so big that it could take down the economy if they failed? Other than Hillary Clinton and the clown car that receives millions of dollars to turn the other way and pretend it's rational to allow our economic future to continue to be at risk..

[El Shaman]

282. Don't know you from Eve

But u sound much like a Trump Chump.
A DIOS.

[fasttense]

283. Nice to see you are back but you are totally wrong about Sanders

I agree with nothing on your post but I knew that when I clicked on it. I just wanted to see what you had to say.

I don't think you realize the momentum behind Bernie. He would be a real liberal president and Not just a Democratic president who likes RepubliCON economic plans.

But You have a right to an opinion.

[seabeyond]

310. he states emphatically he is not a liberal. does that count?

[fasttense]

570. I've seen nothing to indicate he doesn't accept the word liberal

As it is meant in the US.

Do you have a link?

But then Obama claimed the attribute and he certainly isn't liberal, at least not where it really counts in economics.

[modestybl]

292. The two greatest challenges HRC faced, she failed miserably...

Health Care. Iraq war. HRC appears not to "get" much of anything.

Bernie Sanders co-sponsored the only significant legislation that got passed last year... I can't recall ANYTHING that HRC sponsored of any significance during her 8 years in the Senate.

Sanders has handled the BLM disruptions with honesty and graciousness... anyone who gets ambushed on stage is put in a very vulnerable situation, but Sanders isn't afraid to do that ... HRC is so over-handled, over-coached, over-consulted, that few people trust anything she says... she has security around her so tight that no one from the outside world gets close without her leave...

Sanders has been front and center about the middle class, racial issues, the corrosive effects of crony capitalism and ruinious wars for decades. HRC is one of the Dems responsible for the current sad state of unending war and too-big-to-fail banks. BTW the people that warned against the loosening (and repeal) of Glass Stegall were right. The defenders were wrong. In a universe that now has too big to fail as a reality, probably needs much more than reinstating Glass-Steagall to rein in the enshrining of finance above a real physical economy.

So, Bernie Sanders didn't show up to your little bureaucratic corner? Maybe he was busy representing his constituents.

But on some level, you know this... you go on the attack against Sanders because you can't really make the case for HRC on her own merits.

[kacekwl]

295. Do you actually think

some of these TPP countries would allow their workers to join a union ? I find that VERY hard to believe. I did not see this addressed in the myriad of replays. If it was then sorry.

[Still In Wisconsin]

296. I started out as a strong Bernie Sanders supporter...

but the more I read on here, the less I am excited about ANY of the Democratic candidates. I will vote for whomever the nominee is. But wow, we've effectively annihilated everybody and it's only August. I probably need to take a short time out.

[Springslips]

297. I can't change the OP's mind...

But for others that ignorance of the OP is staggering.

OP: I am a highly informed voter

Hardly. The OP doesn't get even the basics of campaigning correct. For she calls Bernie Captain Obvious for mentioning problem. Any part time politico understands THAT POLITICIANS MENTION ISSUE TO MAKE THEM CENTER IN AN ELECTION. Duh! Either the OP is annoyed because she doesn't want those issues centerpiece, or she doesn't have the cognitive chops to follow politics. Either way, her opening sentence is just 'informed wisdom', a proclamation that her reasoning doesn't live up to.

On her race versus classism. Ask the question: what would PoC prefer? Living in a racial society while poor, or living in a racial society with better pay? You know the answer. You went in the closet to get economic equality. Sure the fight for equality goes beyond mere economics, but economics is a part of it. Without it then there is no equality, period. This discussion on DU presents a false opposition; it acts as though class issue come at the expense of race issue, when they don't. This is a classic example of using race to splinter people. We should work to advance both, and we can advance both.

OP: Not viable/passable It is viable because it is done in Europe. It may not be passable, yet either was gay marriage. Yet as we seen, shit changes fast. Besides, if we just go with what is passable than we might as well not try for anything. I am not like that. The journey to anywhere starts with a single step, I am ready to make that step. I hope many of you are with me.

On finance The myth that deregulation of Glass-S did not effect the crash has been shown wrong many, many times. I mean mortgages went bad, banks made the mortgages. Duh. Not many understand the finance.

College The OP says that free college will not help PoC, even though many go there, and many more would go if they could afford it. Instead she supports making Community Colleges free. So basically she and HRC say to PoC, "Sorry, you can't afford good colleges but here a lesser CC you can attend for free!" That really sound. . . Not right. Talk about helping middle class whites, their children go to Harvard, and a equally able but poorer PoC goes to City College. Nice! Sigh.

Inner City Schools I am sure HRCs has a wonderful, life changing school funding proposal that will improve inner city schools. Yet any sociologist can tell you poverty is the number one problem effecting education. Especially those that don't get adequate sustenance at early development--the whole purpose of WIC. But we can't pass bills to fight poverty right? Can we pass an equal funding bill for inner city schools?

Her personal experience Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. We will see how well Bernie builds a coalition. He won't win if he can't. This is HRC second go of it, and we know what she's about. It's triangulation, Washington hobnobbing, and power giving to the elite. She cares not for me, my friends, nor the people. It is all corporate suits and back deals. I can't vote for her in the primaries her politics worked in the 1990s, it is not the 90s anymore.

Racism again using race to divide people. I have not seen the racism and I am pretty sensitive to it. This is just based on the flawed logic: All white people at rally, therefor racism. It is also an attack to play off the jewish-PoC toxicity that exist in the zeitgeist. This attack prefigures the old absurd rightwing meme that ' latte liberals are the real racist.' Whether PoC really will or will not support Bernie is there choice. Bernie will have to win them over or fail. But this using race as an attack vehicle is the height of cynicism not seen since Richard Nixon. HRC certainly has a Nixonian aura around her.

[Autumn]

642. May I say, excellent post

I think you covered it all.

[ymetca]

301. Considering the choices...

I'd vote for Bernie or Hillary (or "Marty&quot , as they at least provide lip-service to the plight of the huddled masses. Maybe a bone or two, here and there, sometimes .. a scrap, perhaps, might fall from the Fabulous Feast to which I'm never invited.

But my sneaking suspicion is this is precisely what is expected of me --another futile vote for something that can never be-- Equality. That always seems to be something which must be taken, not demanded. The Great Pyramids of the status quo have to be pounded into dust first. Mob rule is the only rule, ultimately.

This is why it takes 130,000+ people in 45 states to make the trillion-dollar-and-counting ("Oh, we're just getting started!&quot F-35.

We all argue over pennies while wheel-barrows full of gold are rolling out the back door.

[Dont call me Shirley]

302. As for you calling me a racist white privileged elitist, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I was never in the top 1%, let alone the top 50%.
I was not able to financially finish college.
I never had a job that paid a living wage or benefits.
I identify with the underdog, being the family scapegoat.
I almost died from lack of healthcare due to no health insurance.
I care about equality for all, living together in cooperation

I support Bernie because he has worked tirelessly, without much support from his peers, to upend this fucked up system created by the 1% and their paid minions (Rs and Dixicrats). I would LOVE to have single payer healthcare. I would LOVE to have a living wage and decent benefits. I would LOVE to have a free education, like my Swedish father had! I would LOVE to have a clean environment and natural healthy food. I would LOVE to have safe working conditions, a reasonable workweek, a work environment that uplifts.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a long hard battle, Maggie D.

[MaggieD]

320. White privileged elitist does not mean what you think it means

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67904-how-to-explain-white-privilege-exists-7-common-arguments-debunked

[Dont call me Shirley]

339. No, you called me a RACIST white privileged elitist. I know what white privileged means.

Here's what Bernie has been fighting for his entire political career!

The Second Bill of Rights, Franklin D Roosevelt

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

[MaggieD]

342. I don't even know you

Now if you self identify due to the characteristics of racist white privileged elitists that is on you. But I did not call YOU anything. But I will say it is very clear that a horde of Bernie supporters are completely clueless on the issue of white privilege.

[Dont call me Shirley]

346. You called EVERY Bernie supporter a racist white privileged elitist! That includes me!

[Dont call me Shirley]

350. "4. Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists."

[uponit7771]

433. This is false on its face (exclamation mark)

[Dont call me Shirley]

437. Ok, huge numbers. Pretty close to everyone.

[uponit7771]

450. Bernie has huge numbers of support that doesn't mean all could be 10%, that's still big ...

... seeing how many people will come out to his rallies.

[Dont call me Shirley]

612. TPTB are attacking Bernie on his strengths, starting with Civil rights, just like Max Cleland.

I'm not saying for one moment it is the H campaign, its more like Rovian tactics. I will vote for H if she gets the nomination.

[BumRushDaShow]

311. I don't think I could have articulated it any better

and I am still undecided but WILL vote for whoever is the nominee at the convention.

I pointed out in another thread that after over 25 years in the House and Senate, Bernie has only had 3 pieces of legislation that he sponsored that were actually signed into law (and 2 of those were naming Post Offices in Vermont, with the 3rd being a Veterans Pay bill in 2013).

I personally think he knows this and that is not his focus per se, where his idea is to articulate and channel the frustration (and rightly so) of millions of people regarding the income gap that has widened to extremes that now exceed the Depression era. But his most ardent supporters have elevated him into the ether without any examples of Bernie's pragmatic work towards just one articulated goal. This type of request has been called "holding feet to the fire" and where along with that, phrases like "He gives a good speech but..." has also been dished out on DU an inordinate amount of times... Yet these phrases seem to only apply to certain folks and not others. And when called on it, the knee-jerk "But what about Hillary!!11!!!!" nonsense is blurted out, again without addressing valid questions on the ability of this candidate to maneuver through the quagmire of Congress to get stuff done.

Given that his entire Congressional career has been as an "Independent" (who caucused with Democrats) and given the strong partisanship of the current parties, I expect his ability to muster votes for some of his key legislation has been hindered somewhat.

The one quibble I do have with your excellent post is the mention of Glass-Steagall, as the original intent was to literally separate/forbid investment banks from combining with commercial banks so that if one goes, it doesn't take the other down with it. Gramm-Leach-Bliley essentially nullified Glass-Steagall and this is partly why the bankruptcy of Lehman hit so hard, whilst the blow from the other bank failures was softened only because other banks agreed (or were strong-armed) to buy them out and/or they received money from TARP.

I do think Hillary has some work to do herself as her positions have tended to be directed to a certain demographic, many of whom are the antithesis of the liberal/progressive thought in terms of corporate focus. My mother always taught me that this was a "capitalistic country and 'capital = money'", so I have no illusions that we would suddenly fulfill the prediction of capitalism becoming communism and communism becoming capitalism. But I do know that this country is not about to give up its money any time soon and we are not a country of "cottage industries" with tens of millions of families eeking out a living selling goods and services from a stall in front of their house.

The job of a Democratic President is essentially thankless because keeping a coalition is literally like herding cats, and this requires some very on-point vocal surrogates out there to hit all those groups, with the candidate establishing the literal "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of many, one) that ties us all together and that is the Democratic party and its platform.

[Spazito]

378. Excellent post! n/t

[JDPriestly]

313. Please see my post #204.

The Clinton years left a dark legacy. No more Clintons in the White House.

A lot of the problems originated in their failure to move the country toward positive action. Everybody loved Bill, and he squandered his time and efforts on the likes of Monica Lewinsky and bad legislation.

Hillary is a nice person, but the Clintons had their chance in the White House. Their administration left a divided country.

NO MORE CLINTONS OR BUSHES IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

As for the elite in the Democratic Party, they need to stop putting corporate butter on their bread and start representing the people and putting butter on the bread of ordinary voters.

It isn't the Bernie supporters who have a problem. It's the leadership of he Democratic Party.

History shows it is time for a populist reform movement, and Bernie is leading it. Any one of them could have lifted his/her nose, smelled the coffee and offered reform. They didn't. Bernie did. His list of grievances is exactly how reform starts. And now it is up to provide the solutions. Members of Congress will vote no at their own peril.

We employ the members of Congress. Not the corporations.

[wendylaroux]

318. oh jesus lol

this was the most hilarious post yet,gd.

[Ron Green]

325. TOPS

RS.

[mother earth]

326. RE: TPP, it allows other countries to organize into unions. Where is this stated?

Where is there proof of this point? The unions are being systematically killed off in this country, yet the proposed TPP is going to bring this to other countries? Where's your link/proof of this?

[MaggieD]

349. I am amazed that people don't inform themselves

Before going off on a policy.

http://democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/blog/tpp-focus-securing-rights-workers

[mother earth]

507. This is not part of the TPP as it stands. Perhaps you should read policy before being accepting.

TPP represents an opportunity to improve worker rights in countries like Vietnam, Mexico, Malaysia and Brunei but only if the Agreement includes the right obligations, ensures full implementation, and strong enforcement.

I'll believe it when I see it. As it stands it is about corporate power & no amount of BS will change that.
This is a nice way to gloss over it and to gain acceptance. Why aren't we legislating union protection in our country? We are NOW going to do that to other countries, whilst giving more power to corporations, above and beyond sovereignty of nations?

This is yet another WTF moment. Let me know when we legislate that into our own labor laws. The oligarchs don't like unions & they own this country & this gov't at the moment.

I'm always surprised when people don't inform themselves, lol. Nice link, but too many SHOULD INCLUDES, and I'm left wondering why it is so secret, to boot, if it is such a great win for labor law in Vietnam, Mexico & the like, what about the USA? You are allowing yourself to be sold a bill of goods that does not exist, or they'd be screaming it from the rooftops, what a coup that would be. No, a pipe dream at this point for Levin.

I'll trust Elizabeth Warren on this issue, TY very much! AND Bernie Sanders. As for the Glass-Steagall, another misguided approach to HRC support...but hey, have at it.

[raindaddy]

327. You're arguing against Bernie's plan for two years of free college because it's

not going to transform years of underfunding and misguided policy..

And you're actually suggesting because the program is for qualified students that it's pandering to middle class white kids...

The suggestion here is there aren't black, Hispanic and Asian kids who qualify for community college.. Which is a complete BS.. I'm sure the parents of those kids struggling in this economic class war economy would love to hear how helping them get their kids through college is pandering.

[MaggieD]

352. Bernie's plan is for FOUR years of free college

You are thinking of Obama's and HRC's proposals.

[raindaddy]

438. I thought I read where it was two years but four is even better...

The cost of a college education has risen more than 1200% over the last thirty years...And you actually consider making a four year community collage degree available to all eligible students in this economy pandering to middle class "white" kids.

Have you been to a community college lately? It's not just white kids who qualify..You'll see lots kids with Asian, Hispanic and African ancestry attending classes...

Why would you even bring race into the issue?

[nilram]

328. Accomplises nothing: Bernie-sponsored bills versus HRC-sponsored bills

Three bills sponsored by HRC were enacted into law.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse?sponsor=300022#current_status[]=28

Three bills sponsored by Bernie were enacted into law.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse?sponsor=300022#sponsor=400357&current_status[]=28

[MaggieD]

347. She didn't spend 25 years in congress

And she actually got SCHIP passed as first lady. The record is pretty clear to me.

[artislife]

435. No she didn't

She quit to get a job handed to her.

And how well did she do that?

Ask yourself as an American, then ask yourself as an Arab living in the Middle East or Northern Africa.

[HERVEPA]

361. Wow. What a totally dishonest bullshit post.

[rhett o rick]

365. Your OP is filled with unsubstanciated inaccuracies.

You say Sen Sanders talks a lot about our problems. What a very refreshing change from those politicians that ignore our problems. Very little has been done to solve any of the major problems we face. At least Sanders is calling attention to that fact.

You say, "It wasn’t commercial banks that failed. It was investment banks NOT tied to commercial banks and mortgage companies that failed." Where did you get that? What major commercial banks did not get bailed out? Do you have an economist that will support your theory that the Clinton failure to support Glass-Steagall didn't contribute to the bank failure? What is Clinton's plan to insure that we won't have another failure?

On the TPP, you say, "One of the best things about it is that it allows workers in other countries to organize into unions. " Really? Where did you get that? The division between those that favor the TPP and those that don't are clearly between the 1% and the 99%. The Republicans love it, so do corporations, while the unions hate it. They admit that the TPP will move jobs out of the USofA. How does that help anyone but the corporations. And what exactly does Clinton say about the TPP?

Wow, so much disinformation. You say, "Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists." What a terrible thing to say.

This country is in bad condition because we've allow politicians like Clinton to give all our tax dollars to the corporations. Poverty is on the increase and our infant mortality rate is horrendous. The wealth inequality is out of sight and growing. I see nothing from Clinton to make me believe that she won't stick with the status quo for the next 8 years.

[artislife]

366. Okay, vote for Hillary

It's your right..


Thanks for letting us know.

[Gloria]

374. Well-presented...

I might also add that I read a study about some of his economic plans and his supporters don't realize that many will be negatively impacted by unexpected tax increases although he emphasizes more responsiblity on the part of the "rich"....I should try to find the article...it was surprising!!

[PatrickforO]

377. I support Bernie. You can support whomever you want.

But I have, do and will continue to support Bernie.

[George II]

384. Point #1 is completely on the mark - lots of complaints and critiques, but not a SINGLE solution...

...and I like point #3, too.

[slipslidingaway]

386. So you believe Sanders is 'an old arrogant white male" WONDERFUL

glad I read you prior post before this, anyone who recommends this post, calling supporters "white privileged elitists" must be so proud.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=525147

"Why did it take so long?

I guess he was forced to by BLM. Politics. Gotta love it. At some point, even the arrogant old white men have to face reality. But it's too late for him and minorities, I believe."

[Fawke Em]

399. Whatever.

Keep voting for the 1 percent. You'll only hurt yourself in the long run.

And before someone says I'm talking down to them, I am the mother of a half Arabic child with a Muslim name. TRUST ME when I tell you that I completely understand bigotry and racism. My child is a target, too.

[MessagingMatters]

411. Whoever is the nominee, we need some realism

I think either Bernie or Hillary would be an excellent president. O'Malley, I don't know enough about him yet to know. Webb, although I admire his integrity, seems out of touch right now with a Democratic Party that is feeling its progressive oats.

That said, you raise some important concerns. Hearing Bernie frequently on Brunch with Bernie on the Thom Hartmann show, I always get the feeling that he spends much more time on the problems than the solutions. Likewise, listening to Bernie's recent speech at the Iowa State Fair, I liked his policy proposals (they could be characterized as promises), such as expanding Social Security, stopping the distribution of wealth to the top one percent, raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour and "Medicare for all" single payer healthcare, but kept thinking that almost all of them would require truly progressive votes from Congress, even beyond simply flipping both houses of Congress to Democratic majority, which itself is a mammoth undertaking. Unless Sanders spends more time explaining how his promises could possibly get enacted, and how his hoped-for "revolution" will take place, he runs the risk of raising many Democratic hopes, only to have them dashed in the near future.

[calimary]

443. Welcome to DU, Messaging Matters! This is a great point you make.

Even in a best-case-scenario for EITHER Hillary or Bernie, there's the matter of the lovely Congress and the lovely Senate which would have to go along with whatever the President initiates. The House may be too gerrymandered to take back, but the Senate is possible. However, if mitch mcdonnell is still there, he'll probably launch another "Let's Make 'Em a One-Termer!" clown show and we would again see wall-to-wall obstruction, whether the bad guys were able to hang onto the Senate or not. Look how shitty it got as of 2010.

I really wish somebody would connect the dots on this one, with the voters. You say you hate how nothing gets done? You hate how Congress has become a complete ineffective, flaccid, impotent joke? Then WHY do you vote republi-CON? Cuz THAT is what you get when you vote republi-CON. WHY do you side with people who don't want the government to work - for you or for anybody else? WHY do you send the government-haters to Washington, then, and complain that nobody gets anything done? VOTE DEMOCRATIC in 2016. At least WE get things done. And btw, how do you like that health care you can finally afford? The GOP didn't give you that. The DEMS did. The GOP wants to take it AWAY from you!

"Unless Sanders spends more time explaining how his promises could possibly get enacted, and how his hoped-for "revolution" will take place, he runs the risk of raising many Democratic hopes, only to have them dashed in the near future." Um... anybody remember the "Son-of-a-Bitch-Used-Car-Salesman" thing?

[passiveporcupine]

622. Bernie has said his number one goal is to get money out of politics

It's money that keeps congress from supporting the voters. If the money is no longer there to bribe them, the votes become so much more important and they actually have to listen to and respond to their constituents. At this point, his second goal comes in...a huge grass roots movement from us the people to push for the progressive results we want to see enacted by congress.

He can't do it alone. None of us can do it if the money still rules the game.

[cascadiance]

593. A lot can be done without a progressive congress... Prosecuting banksters for one thing!

That have been having their crimes ignored over the last decade, and who are a source of a lot of the corruption that has given us the corrupt congress we have now.. If we have a justice department that does its job, it will help start us on the way of getting criminals out of the ability to buy our government to corrupt it more.

Also, his commitment to only nominate SCOTUS nominees that will overturn citizen's united, in effect will shut down any more corporate serving decisions if the justice he's replacing is one of "the five" in his term. Republicans can set precedents by filibustering judges for political reasons which hasn't been done before, but even if they do, that 5 justice majority would be taken away and shut down any more corporate serving decisions even without a full complement of judges.

There's a lot of other things he can do as the chief executive that don't necessarily require a congress to agree with him. He can veto any trade agreements that he feels are just serving corporations too, which it appears almost any other Republican or Democratic Party candidate (perhaps not O'Malley) would not do.

[Babel_17]

412. "Johnny come lately on issues, such as institutional racism"

Might be a big enough lie to actually work.

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/20-examples-bernie-sanders-powerful-record-civil-and-human-rights-1950s

[ibegurpard]

422. Oh they're sure trying

[MoveIt]

413. ROFL

And you got locked out of your own thread.

It is to laugh.

[Catherina]

415. And a good thing too!

Because I'd seriously question myself if we were supporting the same candidate.

Frankly, I'm delighted that the people whose righteousness I admired on issues have 99.9% lined up behind Bernie Sanders and 99.9% of the people on the other side of the issues are again, predictably, on the other side.

NO to the TPP that allows corporations to overturn public protections. NO to neoliberal wars and destabilizations. NO to further enriching the corporations that back Hillary Clinton while oppressing American people. And HELL NO to neoliberal economics that keep millions of people, most of them people of color, in appalling living conditions all over the world.

[hootinholler]

494. Can I have your babies? n/t

[PatrickforO]

423. Concerning Bernie's position on Glass-Steagall

From another thread, but true.

There is a thoroughly dishonest argument being proffered by those who wish to minimize the significance of Bernie Sanders' call to restore Glass-Steagall (who also happen to be the folks who are interested in defending the disastrous legislation signed into law by the spouse of their preferred candidate), that says, in effect, that Glass-Steagall wouldn't have helped anything in the 2008 financial collapse, because the problems originated in investment banks, not commercial banks.

The firewall between investment and commercial banking that was created by Glass-Steagall was a two-way barrier. Not only did it prevent commercial banks from undertaking investment banking activities, it also prevented investment banks from engaging in activities that were considered primarily the purview of commercial banks. One of the things that precluded was investment banks getting involved in mortgages. When Gramm-Leach-Bliley, which repealed Glass-Steagall, was enacted, investment banks were now free to buy up mortgages issued by commercial banks, bundle them together into a single investment vehicle, shares of which were then sold to investors. These were what we now call 'securitized mortgages,' or mortgage]backed securities. As these became more and more popular, investment banks began buying up mortgages like hotcakes from mortgage issuers (i.e., commercial banks). Before long, commercial banks realized they could make money simply by issuing mortgages they knew would be bought up by investment banks within a few years of being issued. There was no longer any incentive for a bank to perform adequate due diligence in issuing mortgages, because the bank knew it wasn't actually undertaking the risk of those mortgages. Combined with the quick and easy profit from selling these mortgages -- many of which should never have been issued -- this became a perverse incentive (which was further enabled and abetted by the rating agencies who gave these mortgage backed securities top ratings, despite the fact that many consisted of far too many bad loans).

These instruments were a MAJOR factor in the 2008 meltdown, and they wouldn't have existed had Glass-Steagall not been repealed.

[Babel_17]

497. Buffett says the threat is still there

http://etfdailynews.com/2015/06/22/warren-buffett-derivatives-are-still-weapons-of-mass-destruction-and-are-likely-to-cause-big-trouble/

[PatrickforO]

532. Sure it is. There's sadly a huge bubble building as we speak.

That is what sucks about this whole thing. How many millions of lives were ruined during the last recession, with its slow job recovery? How many more this time. But, hey, we have TPP! We were all gonna be laid off anyway...

[Babel_17]

579. It devastated pension funding

Though it also should be said that lots of pensions weren't run as well as they should have been. We're still seeing the effect of this as our nation's pension insurer is being compelled to allow some pensions to basically dissolve.

The financial meltdown was so severe that pension funds had to eat their seed money. No matter how strongly the stock market rebounded became irrelevant as the pensions had entered a death spiral. In order to meet obligations they had to sell of assets that were horribly underpriced. By the time the market rebounded their income producing assets couldn't sustain the payments due, so more assets had to be sold. Rinse, lather, repeat. This is what Detroit's pensions got caught up in.

Senator Sander knows this and is committed to not letting it happen again, and to bolster and expand the safety net, including Social Security. To her credit HRC is also committed to bolstering Social Security but I see Senator Sanders as more vigorously arguing to do what that entails.

[Zorra]

429. OP has been flagged. nt

[seabeyond]

434. yea!!! right zora? jury jury jury until we can shut women up. something to cheer, right?

all we need is 4 of that 80-85% sanders supporter on a jury to shut someone up.

rah rah rah... party time.

[ibegurpard]

451. Oh right...its all about shutting up women

Couldn't have anything to do with obnoxious, offensive, and rude shit-stirring could it?

[seabeyond]

455. it is about a large majority shutting up the minority voice. bravenak, gift, maggie....

[Lancero]

468. Higher staff review the accounts when flagged though...

So either they'll decide that the hides were merited- Haven't seen the other hidden posts, but the one here that got hidden was deserving of such imo - or they'll help 'suppress the minority voice'

Disabled accounts from five hides are reviewed as well I think, so the same applies - Except it these cases, nothing was done and the accs left to wait out their time. So either staff felt the hidden posts weren't appropriate for this site, or they were helping to supress the minority voice.

[seabeyond]

469. not even kinda true. they do not overturn hides, period, the end. doesnt matter if it is fair or not

doesnt matter if a person is alert stalked. doesnt matter that the board is 80-85% sander supporters. as skinner has told us, clinton supporters just must be really really nice and hope they do not get fuckin' hides, so no, you are wrong.

that is not the way the board is set up.

skinner has made it clear that the jury system rules the board, the good and bad of it. we make du.

[Lancero]

472. Huh, didn't know that...

Figured the flagged for review meant that the staff would, actually, look at the accounts.

[seabeyond]

506. it is to take a look only in seeing if a person is flaming out or a troll

does nothing to the hides.

[brentspeak]

486. Thanks for the laugh. n/t

[Logical]

541. Oh FFS, many people love Warren and hate Hillary! Sexist? Nt

[passiveporcupine]

624. what does her being a woman have to do with it?

Why is it that she denigrates Bernie as a valid choice because he's a clueless old white man, but her being locked out is because she is a woman? It has nothing to do with her claiming it is Bernie supporters who are stanky racist white privileged elitists?

Do you not even see the irony of this term? You are bringing sexism into it? She's been sexist toward Bernie from the OP.

[Bobbie Jo]

526. Well mission accomplished

Time for a victory lap?

Who could have predicted?

[TM99]

534. The OP did a fine job didn't they?

Back from a time-out, and in the course of an evening they have dumped so much venom, lies, and distortion that they are once again flagged for review.

Yes, it was very predictable indeed.

The great thing about this clusterfuck of an OP is that it shined a light on those who recommended it.

[Bobbie Jo]

536. Wrong.

PA smile guy and all.

I'll leave it at that. No doubt I'm on the same list.

I guess there really is safety in numbers. I mean I wasn't even talking to you and yet you felt all bold enough to jump in and tell me what for.

Go you.

eta: Kick

[TM99]

547. The wonderful thing about an open

discussion group like this is that we can respond to whomever we choose.

[Blue_In_AK]

546. Is this the flag you're referring to?

On Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:08 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Why I DON'T support Bernie for President
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251524437

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Another false "Bernie and his supporters are racist" implication, used for deceitful propaganda purposes.

"Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists."

Ugly stuff.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Aug 17, 2015, 03:12 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't agree with the post. Let it be and lets argue it down. Disagreement with its points is no reason to ban it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is completely wrong, but just her opinion, wrong as it is, so let it stay. Partisans abound.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: In reading this post, I was ready to say to leave it until point 4. Declaring that all supporters of a candidate are racists is over the top.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No reason to alert on this.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


Oh, we are all so unreasonable and mean. I'm juror #2.

[Zorra]

553. No. Flagged for Review, and temporarily can't post.

OP had a disgusting post hidden in another thread.

[Blue_In_AK]

555. Oh, I see.

Well, I did my best to save her from herself. I really don't like to hide people, even when I completely disagree with them.

[seabeyond]

447. i hope you started at zero hides maggie, cause they are on your ass. i am so sorry about that.

we have lost too many good voices here recently. it was exciting having yours back.

[Hissyspit]

449. Most of this is nonsense.

[Cha]

466. I feel the same way about BS.. Mahalo for Brilliantly getting this down in an OP, Maggie

"It’s impossible for Bernie to be unaware of some of the really clueless and sometimes overtly racist things his supporters say hundreds of times a day. As far as I can tell, he has not said a word about it. He is either oblivious or content to let it slide."

3. He is not a Democrat. In fact he has spent 25 years dissing Democrats, even to the point of calling for a primary on Obama in 2012 (as I make sure to remind every PoC I meet that mentions the presidential campaign).

Thank you.. that needs to be brought up to everyone who appreciates the amazing job President Obama has done even if BS doesn't.

[stevil]

470. K&R

Great OP and you killed them in the comments. Nice job.

[brentspeak]

473. Weren't you banned from this site?

You're the same previously banned member who concocted a fable about having 20-something son, who, along his friends, allegedly thinks Bernie "is too old".

Love this bit of propaganda:

"One of the best things about it (TPP) is that it allows workers in other countries to organize into unions."

From what crevice did you pull that bit of disinfo from?

[PoliticAverse]

474. "He is not a Democrat. In fact he has spent 25 years dissing Democrats"

Does the Democratic leadership know this? Because Bernie Sanders' picture is
right there with other Democrats on http://democrats.senate.gov/members/

[Rosa Luxemburg]

479. I hate to be rude but

you are entitled to your opinion.

[Scuba]

490. I miss the unrec button.

[moondust]

493. How are those War Room donuts today?

Still free?

[brentspeak]

514. Free donuts only if

their troll registrations last at least 100 posts.

99 posts and then the ban? Sorry, but 'close' only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades. That will be $50 for the donuts and coffee, please -- plus a $15 charge for the "HRC 2016" t-shirt.

[colsohlibgal]

500. It's Nice Seeing Bernie People Stand Up For Him

Here we go....Glass Steagall is no issue, who knows about the TPP - really?

Bernie has had trouble getting things done because of opposition by not only republicans but by the Wall Street Democrats....like Hillary.

Also the assertion that he has not gotten specific about how he would proceed is not true.

And yes, as others have mentioned, he doesn't have that Scarlett letter of buying into Dubya's war hook, line, and sinker. Trillions wasted, countless people killed or maimed, the region destabilizing, here comes ISIS.

Also he has not received millions speaking and hobnobbing with Wall Street -which would lead the rational mind to sense he won't be beholden to the Banksters like HRC.

The Clinton camp must be feeling the Bern, worrying about losing to him in NH to be sending out the worker bees to try some propaganda.

[floriduck]

518. I completely disagree with you and here's why:

For starters look at the donor lists for HRC versus Bernie Sanders. When push comes to shove, where will HRCs allegiance lie? She is tied hook, line and sinker to Wall Street and the Too Big to Fail banks.

Bernies message has remained constant for 40 years. HRC won't even take a position on the TPP or the XL Pipeline unless she is elected. What kind of leadership does that demonstrate??

But here is my main issue with HRC, why was it so important for her to determine what emails to delete without getting the Dept of State involved? Even if she was completely innocent, she showed terrible decision making by pushing that envelope. That appears indicative of what she might do as President.

You are welcome to vote any way you want. But understand your opinion is YOURS only. Many of us see life through a much different lense.

[uponit7771]

659. The emails issue is political at best seeing all the other SOS did something SIMILAR and not ONE of

... the candidates can throw a stone.

For instance, Bernie voted for the same bill in the 90s that increased jails... because it had protections for women in it.

So there can't be room for nuance for one person and not the other.

I don't agree with Obama on TPP or XL right now ...

but

out of 10,000 issues Bernie isn't going to compromise on 1?!

Just my 2 cents

[108vcd]

521. Vote for who you want

Personally, I have no-doubt in my mind, that if Hillary won in 08, we would have a Republican in office right now

I literally have no idea what she personally stands for, at a core level...it's certainly not apparent

Her donor list tells me who she will be working for in comparison to Bernie

In my mind, she is quite a bit to the right of Obama....at best, will just slightly slower the rate of the Oligarchy that is forming versus a Republican candidate

Obama proved to be a disappointment in some ways, but at-least he fought hard, and won some battles, made some incremental change in some ways, and pushed for some monumental change in other ways.....he has a compass that isn't just based on polling..

As for the BLM issue, black americans tend to be single issue voters, who don't self-describe themselves as "liberals" or "progressives" with the same percentages as whites, they certainly don't participate much in issues that don't directly effect them (which is probably due to in-part to not being afforded the same time)...including ironically being a thorn in the fight for lgbt equality....that being said, I agree with the underlying intention of BLM and I agree that black americans shouldn't just be expected to vote Democrat because they are the lesser of 2 evils...they have a right to expect to be courted, and they have and are making that point....l hope they don't just pick on the softest target though....

Their treatment of Sander's though, wouldn't be acceptable to them if it were the other way around, and nobody would do that to them either...

As of now, I will vote for Bernie, despite knowing that Clinton most likely will get the nod because she is the establishment candidate, O'Malley would be second in-line, and would probably be the most effective at getting things done simply because he will have less personal opposition than either Sanders or Clinton. If Clinton wins, I will vote Green Party in NY, like I did in 12, as it won't help get a Republican elected.

[BainsBane]

522. I can't help but notice

the numbers of recs on these kinds of threads are growing.

[GoneFishin]

525. You have given up pretending that these bullcrap memes are not purely a political strategy

fabricated to bash Bernie.

Good for you.

[TM99]

533. Well, look who is back!

And right out the gate, these posts of yours have garnered you hide after hide. I am not surprised really due to their venom, lies, and distortions.

I see your account is flagged for review.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

537. This is so sad

I really fucking hate to listen to someone just trash someone because he isn't "their guy".

[Logical]

539. LOL, "I am a highly informed voter", who the hell even says that? Nt

[lunamagica]

548. Wonderful, wonderful post!

I agree with every word

[KelleyKramer]

549. You should check out FDR and Harry Truman, see how they match with Bernie

But I don't expect that you would actually do that

You have no interest in true Democratic values and policies

This post is bullshit

Nothing but Flamebait

[leftofcool]

565. Actually, what she said reflects 78% of Dems who support Hillary.

You can include of over 200 Congressional Democrats as well, plus the support of several unions.

[Stellar]

550. This I feel...

4. Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists. This is not in any way specific to DU. I see it all over the internet. On Facebook, Twitter, comments on liberal blogs – just everywhere. It’s impossible for Bernie to be unaware of some of the really clueless and sometimes overtly racist things his supporters say hundreds of times a day. As far as I can tell, he has not said a word about it. He is either oblivious or content to let it slide.

But I must say, I don't think Bernie requires my vote, he has his supporters.

Hillary, I don't know. I think she feels she is supposed to have it. No if's - and's - or but's...at least that's what the media keeps saying.

[Live and Learn]

554. Thank you, I really was wondering but now I can see that it is all based on falsehoods.

At least I need not wonder any longer.

[leftofcool]

564. Good post, Maggie and reflects why Hillary is leading in the polls with 78% of Dems supporting her.

[davidpdx]

567. Yes Maggie we are all a bunch of big meanies!

We lie about poor Hillary Clinton and bash her at every turn. And Hillary Clinton supporters never run at the mouth. No of course not. And any time one of their post are hidden it's a big conspiracy to shut them up. So we must martyr the Hillary Clinton supporter who are on vacation. "Oh, so and so didn't deserve it those big meany Sanders supporters."

Hello Maggie, you are a hypocrite.

[Gothmog]

569. 560+ replies

The OP hit a nerve it seems

[Babel_17]

581. Same thing could be said if it had the same number of views, and no replies from Sanders supporters

lol

"They got nothing!"

[Bobbie Jo]

583. Yup

So much so that she had to be shut down.

See the celebratory posts upthread.

Mob behavior is fascinating, isn't it?

[brer cat]

571. MaggieD,

It is good to have you back with us, and to see Heaven and sea joining in was a true joy! We need to be at full strength.

This was a great OP and should have been the impetus to a good debate here on the issues and strengths/weaknesses of the candidates, but, alas, most of the Bernie supporters resorted as usual to snark and attacking-the-messenger posts. I was having a very busy day yesterday and didn't join in.

I am torn, having strong positive feelings about Hillary, but also feeling some fatigue and seeing a need to move in a new direction which is leading me to give M O'M a long look. I wish we had a forum to chat without rancor; we have so many DUers who are thoughtful, intelligent, and willing to share their worldview which is so different from mine. Maybe some day...

At any rate, welcome back and another rec for your thread.

[Marrah_G]

575. I support Bernie and I don't need to trash Hillary to do that.

[Sunlei]

576. I understand he says, the same things he always has, but we need him heard in the D primary

[Ikonoklast]

577. I'd like to see just who these people are, , these "huge numbers" of "Racists".

Huge numbers of his supporters come off as racist, white privileged elitists. This is not in any way specific to DU. I see it all over the internet. On Facebook, Twitter, comments on liberal blogs – just everywhere. It’s impossible for Bernie to be unaware of some of the really clueless and sometimes overtly racist things his supporters say hundreds of times a day. As far as I can tell, he has not said a word about it. He is either oblivious or content to let it slide.

I call bullshit.

[GoneFishin]

580. It's a bullshit political strategy to try to close peoples minds to Bernies message before they hear

it.

Once you recognize that fact, you realize that they don't care that it is a lie. They just keep repeating it over and over, knowing that some will believe it, and turn them off to Bernie before they even know anything about him.

It's a sleazy right wing tactic, and it reinforces everything I already knew about the Turd Way.

[Ikonoklast]

587. Shows me that the Hillary camp is already starting to get uneasy.

Look for them to go full-out dog-whistle soon, just like they did after Hillary got stung in the early primaries in 2008.

[GoneFishin]

589. Yep. They will get more desperate.

[yurbud]

578. "Coalition building" with the right is what is screwing us over now.

[Armstead]

592. Well, you hit all of the talking points.

I could respond to each one, but since this is over 500 posts it would be redundent.

I'll just say that you are repeating recycled and shallowv talking points not based on factual analysis.

And, What Sanders is saying may be obvious, but it is a core truth that the mainstream Democratic "centrists" have been avoiding, or abetting q
, for 30 years. And they share bllame with the GOP for the results of unrestrained CONservative policy, andvthe New Gilded Age.

[ellisonz]

600. This closely reflects my critique of Bernie Sanders.

He's out of touch and he doesn't get anything done.

[Ken Burch]

620. Bernie NEVER EVER said that economic justice would end bigotry.

Please stop saying he said that or that he believed that when you know perfectly well that he never has said that.

Bernie has never said that people should stop fighting bigotry, or that bigotry doesn't matter, either.

All he said was that you need economic justice to be able to get where you can truly end bigotry. That it was a precondition, not a cure. What is so terrible about saying that? What harm comes from saying that?

And how can you possibly think it is progressive to support the person who has always had the most conservative overall views of anyone in the race(other than Jim "The Confederate Flag is no biggie" Webb)?

Bernie has some people among his supporters who don't come off well...but so does HRC and so does O'Malley and so does everyone else who is running or could run for the Democratic nomination.

If HRC wins...it keeps the right out of power. But nothing transformational can ever happen under a HRC presidency. Especially if she sends troops to fight IS(a step which would instantly mean she would cease to be even a centrist president).

[Mike Nelson]

627. If he won the nomination, I would for for him...

...I never thought of this before, but isn't he a Democrat if he wins the nomination? That would make him a Democrat, I would think...

[PosterChild]

638. +100 ! K&R (Nm)

[SunSeeker]

641. Thank you for posting this. It is very well written, and well reasoned.

[BlueCaliDem]

657. Excellent OP, MaggieD. And don't get all too frustrated. We know that the GOP

would rather run against Bernie Sanders than Hillary Clinton, and we know anyone can make a screen name and post as a Liberal or Progressive, even a Democrat in order to spread misinformation and "claim dissatisfaction" with Hillary Clinton in order to weaken her. Just look at our M$M. They tout polls showing Hillary Clinton with low numbers for "likability" and "trustworthiness" but never tout any polls showing what people think of Republicans. M$M = in the tank for the GOP.

But figures don't lie:

Hillary Clinton has 29 Democratic Senators and 92 Democratic House Representatives endorsing her. This is crucial if we want our next president to get anything done.

Bernie Sanders has ZERO.

Hillary Clinton has 70-80% favorability among Black Americans, and 73% among Latino Americans (in a Univision poll).

This primary is hers to lose.

[Jamaal510]

666. This is why

I find it laughable when people cry about the media not giving BS enough air time (even though he has been all over TV) and being so much against him, even though there are constant narratives of him "surging" as he still trails by about 20 points and is losing badly among virtually every traditional Dem constituency. Not that I'm so much of a Hillary fan, but I'm frustrated with how the media (yes, even MSNBC) trot out her unfavorable/trustworthy numbers on the regular, but conveniently omit the ones for her rivals in both parties most of the time as well as omitting some of the figures that you mentioned, such as endorsements. She is easily the most scrutinized candidate running for the 2016 Dem nomination, and maybe even the most scrutinized candidate from either party. It makes me feel like I'm being told what to think and that they're insulting my intelligence as a viewer.

[BlueCaliDem]

670. Considering that the M$M is in the tank for the GOP, and

the fact that Hillary Clinton is the most scrutinized presidential candidate for the presidential elections, and is, thus far, the ONLY presidential candidate for which a poll on likability and trustworthiness is being touted - ad nauseam - it should tell all Americans that she's the one they (GOP, RNC, Koch Bros, Sheldon Adelson, AIPAC, etc) fear the most. They conduct their own internal polls, believe you me, and they're more accurate than the bought-and-paid for ones that they propagate throughout the M$M (radio, print, t.v., cable).

Today, FiveThirtyEight shows that two more Dem House Reps have endorsed her, bringing her House endorsements to 94.

Senators (29) remain the same.

Governors at 7 (crucial to campaigns in their respective States) also remains the same.

These are vitally important endorsements in order to win the primaries and then the G.E.

To date, Senator Bernie Sanders has not gotten a single congressional or gubernatorial endorsement. Even the Governor of Vermont, Peter Shumlin, has endorsed Hillary Clinton - back in May.

[dreamnightwind]

658. Epic fail

Sad to see so much negativity thrown at a very very good man. You can't find anything more positive to do to bring about the changes we need in this nation than to spend your time attacking Bernie Sanders? Boggles the mind.

[slipslidingaway]

662. You should pay more attention ...

this whole meme about racist, white privileged men began over a year ago on DU when someone suggested they should just get out of the way, and essentially die.

This is from an older, white, female who has two children that are in many respects polar opposites, but they both are for Sanders. One is a young doctor, you can look at my journal when she started Med school, the other a recent college graduate.

One leans more conservative and the other more liberal, but they are both united in what Sanders has to say.

Young people are no longer constrained by a "D" or an "R" and that is how it should be.

The younger generation has arrived and want a better life for their children.

Corporate candidates are lacking in appeal across a broad spectrum of people, young, old and middle aged.

Mock them or take them for granted, times they are a changing ... again and hopefully for a long time

[Capt. Obvious]

669. Oh, don't mind me

I'm just swinging by this thread to check on your profile.

[MoveIt]

682. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=551969

[Capt. Obvious]

684. LOL

You can set your watch to it.

Weird thing - I just logged in and I have all these taunting messages from someone I've never conversed with who is also on timeout and has been for a few weeks apparently.

I'm sure the two are just really close friends and their abrasive nature and similar posting styles are just a coincidence.

[Puzzledtraveller]

672. That's your perogative

Thank you for sharing.