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riversedge

(70,259 posts)
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:17 AM Aug 2015

What's Whitewater? These voters know less than you think about Hillary Clinton

Interesting article and theme:




http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-hillary-clinton-generations-20150812-story.html#page=1

What's Whitewater? These voters know less than you think about Hillary Clinton


To the generation born during the Clinton administration and now eligible to vote, Hillary Rodham Clinton is known more as a globetrotting diplomat and a presidential candidate than first lady. (Jim Cole / Associated Press)
By Colin Diersing


Democratic pollster Celinda Lake has been asking voters how much they trust Hillary Rodham Clinton for more than two decades. So when she recently asked a group of 10 young people about the issue, her questions naturally turned to Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal turned White House scandal of the 1990s.

Instead of the heated answers the topic once invited, the focus group responded with confused silence.

“Is that a new type of vodka?” one person finally offered.


The participant was probably kidding, Lake said. But the answer is exemplary of a challenge confronting pollsters, ad-makers and strategists on both sides who are trying to shape Clinton’s image during her presidential run. The youngest eligible voters of 2016 were toddlers when America’s most prominent political power couple left the White House, and what Americans know about Clinton is increasingly defined by what stage of her career she was in when they first tuned in.

“For millennials -- and this is true of any cohort -- if they don’t remember it, it’s ancient history,” Lake said..................

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What's Whitewater? These voters know less than you think about Hillary Clinton (Original Post) riversedge Aug 2015 OP
Oh for God's sake! potone Aug 2015 #1
Yes. Kids who haven't heard of it now know more than the types who wallowed in fake scandal then. Hortensis Aug 2015 #19
If she survives until Iowa....if....most people will know about that... pipoman Aug 2015 #2
Whitewater was a media scandal. Admiral Loinpresser Aug 2015 #3
Whitewater would never have blossomed TM99 Aug 2015 #4
It never became a scandal lolly Aug 2015 #5
You would be wrong. TM99 Aug 2015 #7
HRC's stubborn refusal to respond to Whitewater subpoena resulted in Bill's impeachment Divernan Aug 2015 #16
Thank you. TM99 Aug 2015 #18
What a tangled & dramatic web the Clintons have woven over the decades. Divernan Aug 2015 #20
I met my ex-wife in Arkansas TM99 Aug 2015 #22
Whitewater is proof that it's not the crime it's the coverup, except when it distracts from a crime leveymg Aug 2015 #34
will ken starr and monica be making an appearance? restorefreedom Aug 2015 #6
Sorry, but I think that is whistling in the dark. djean111 Aug 2015 #8
no doubt about the gop restorefreedom Aug 2015 #10
That's why I am stunned by the assertion that she will easily beat the GOP, and that djean111 Aug 2015 #11
i never thought she had much of a chance in ge restorefreedom Aug 2015 #12
They hate the Clintons as much as we hate the Bushes azmom Aug 2015 #14
it is really hard to imagine restorefreedom Aug 2015 #25
And HRC's negative coat tails will drag down all the other dems on the ballots. Divernan Aug 2015 #17
sadly, yes. nt restorefreedom Aug 2015 #24
Damn that Internets. azmom Aug 2015 #13
Most of her supporters just are not paying attention yet. Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #9
Well, she went from calling it the "gold standard" of trade agreements in her very recent djean111 Aug 2015 #15
My point exactly Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #28
Rec this thread to get the replies read. Divernan Aug 2015 #21
That's OK. Hillary has a brand new scandal that impugns her honesty. nt Romulox Aug 2015 #23
Whitewater? ismnotwasm Aug 2015 #26
I think most responses are missing the point of the article jberryhill Aug 2015 #27
Yeah--I did at first ismnotwasm Aug 2015 #29
I'm waiting for the "new and improved" Clinton Body Count jberryhill Aug 2015 #33
Thank you. riversedge Aug 2015 #31
The Clintons made a major tactical blunder when they started out in politics tularetom Aug 2015 #30
Ding ding ding ding. kath Aug 2015 #32
But, they would have been running against their strategic allies, the Bushes. leveymg Aug 2015 #35

potone

(1,701 posts)
1. Oh for God's sake!
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:25 AM
Aug 2015

They must be really scared if they want to drag that up again. That story was one of the lowest points of American journalism. I have reservations about Secretary Clinton as POTUS, but she handled that disgraceful witch-hunt with enormous grace and dignity. Most young voters will judge her on her merits as a Senator and Secretary of State, and that is as it should be.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
19. Yes. Kids who haven't heard of it now know more than the types who wallowed in fake scandal then.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:27 AM
Aug 2015

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
3. Whitewater was a media scandal.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:31 AM
Aug 2015

The journalistic malpractice committed by the NYT was an outrage. They have never apologized.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
4. Whitewater would never have blossomed
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:10 AM
Aug 2015

into the scandal it became if Clinton had not lied and withheld documents for two years only to then have them found 'accidentally' by an administrative assistance just sitting on a table outside her White House residence.

Just like Clinton could be avoiding the email server scandal had she just played by the rules and followed through on document requests.

This is an unfortunate pattern with her, and while the young and dumb may not remember Whitewater, if she is the candidate, this shit will continue on and on whether she wins the White House or likely not.

lolly

(3,248 posts)
5. It never became a scandal
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:42 AM
Aug 2015

It started--and remained--an obsessive witch hunt, first by right wing enemies of the Clinton's in Arkansas, then handed over to the Kewl Kidz in the Washington press corps. There was never any "there" there, and 74 million dollars and countless hours of investigation failed to find anything.

The goal of the investigators was to use vague, unfounded suspicions of "something fishy" to fabricate an excuse to sift through every document and interview as many witnesses possible to find something, anything that would be embarrassing to the Clintons.

That was why we saw the illegal Grand Jury leaks from Starr's "investigation." They were hoping to destroy Clinton with salacious details. The pattern is repeating with Trey Gowdy, Starr's ideological successor, leaking misleading and out-of-context details to set up attacks on Clinton.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
7. You would be wrong.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:49 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:20 AM - Edit history (1)

Do some more research.

The Clinton's both fucked up by lying and obfuscating and that led to widened investigations.

The Clinton's gave just enough to keep it going and allowed the GOP to run with it from there.

Anyone who lived at the time and wasn't a party faithful blinded by the 'D' Democrat saw this coming, watched it unfold, and tried like hell to convince others of the truth while Clinton was lying on national TV. While their martial harmony or disharmony was no ones business, it became an embarrassment and distracted from what was really going on economically and politically.

In politics, perceptions are reality even if they are not factually correct, are distorted, or are outright lies.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
16. HRC's stubborn refusal to respond to Whitewater subpoena resulted in Bill's impeachment
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:17 AM
Aug 2015

To belabor the obvious, she ignored a legal subpoena in order to keep her business records SECRET. Bottom line, she was subpoenaed to produce to a court her billing records from when she was a partner at the Rose law firm. Against the advice of counsel, she stonewalled and for two years, she insisted she had no idea where they were and they couldn't be found. According to Sid Blumenthal's Clinton era book, The Clinton Wars, HRC was the one who was against just putting out every detail they had on Whitewater and killing the issue. He wrote of her being extremely angry after several Democrats, including Moynihan, Kerry and Bradley - some former prosecutors, recommended that. And yes, that is the same Sid Blumenthal whose email correspondence with Hillary is much discussed in the current Clinton email hot mess.

So the Whitewater investigation dragged on for 2 years until a White House employee found a stack of files (the Rose billing records) on a table outside the door to HRC's office in the White House family quarters and turned them in. Ken Starr had pretty much shut down his investigation at that point, but the discovery of those documents led him to reopen it, and it was AFTER that that L'Affaire Lewinsky developed. THAT led to Bill being deposed about Monica, and getting caught (blue dress evidence)lying under oath and THAT led to his impeachment.

Interesting that the Republicans pushing on the email investigation and missing emails have not, as far as I've seen, mentioned the similarity to the missing Whitewater documents. That was some 20 years ago, so younger posters probably never heard of this, but I have no doubt that GOP oppo research team is drooling to throw this at HRC should she win the primary.


Republicans on the special Senate Whitewater committee released a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation today showing that the fingerprints of the First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton, were found on records discovered in the White House family quarters two years after they were first sought by investigators.
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/05/us/hillary-clinton-s-fingerprints-among-those-found-on-papers.html


Those Whitewater documents had been subpoenaed from HRC and for 2 years she stoutly claimed she had absolutely no idea where they were. Then they were found on a table in the first family's private quarters - just outside the door to HRC's office. And she again disavowed any knowledge of how they got there.

In January 1998, Starr suddenly requested and received permission to expand his investigation again. The new area of inquiry: whether Clinton and his close friend Vernon E. Jordan Jr. encouraged Monica Lewinsky to lie under oath about whether she had an affair with the president. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/whitewater.htm


Ted Koppel did a masterful Nightline report on the whole incident. Here's a link to the transcript of Ted Koppel's coverage of this nightmare. HRC is caught in mis-statement after mis-statement after mis-statement and keeps trying to spin and twist her way out of it. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/01301996.html
The Whitewater Lost And Found Records
Correspondent: Chris Bury
Anchor: Ted Koppel

TED KOPPEL (VO): The accusation? Obstruction of justice, knowingly withholding subpoenaed documents. The location? A book room on the third floor of the White House, a room in the first family's private quarters. One clue? A White House log handed over today with the names of all the people who might have had access - from Mrs Clinton's chief of staff, to Chelsea Clinton's friends, to dignitaries visiting the President. Tonight, the mystery of the lost and found records.


ANNOUNCER: This is ABC News Nightline. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel.
TED KOPPEL: Almost exactly two years ago, a subpoena was issued for some billing records from the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. These are records that go back about 10 years or so and that would, it was believed, shed some light on how much work attorney Hillary Clinton did on a particular real estate deal, and for whom she did that work. For the better part of these last two years, those records could not be found. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, they turned up earlier this month in the office of a woman named Carolyn Huber. What turned that into a major story is that Ms Huber works at the White House, and that she says she found the billing records in the private quarters of the first family - found them, in fact, last August, right outside Mrs Clinton's private office - didn't know what they were, packed them up, didn't realize what they were until a couple of weeks ago, when she was tidying up her own office. If someone has been deliberately concealing those records, that would be a federal crime. The White House says that a surprisingly large number of people actually had access to the Clintons' private quarters last August We'll tell you more about that later, but we want to use most of our time this evening to put this latest development into context. We begin by taking something both the President and the first lady have said recently.


CHRIS BURY, ABC NEWS (VO): The President and Mrs Clinton complain that the questions keep changing, but the controversies over Whitewater and the Travel Office have stayed alive, in large part, because the answers keep changing, too.

CHRIS BURY (VO): On January 15th, Mrs Clinton told a radio interviewer all documents had been released. Five days later, the White House issued a statement to The New York Times saying that wasn't quite true. On Castle Grande, Hillary Clinton's legal work for a land deal regulators describe as fraudulent: in May 1995 she told the Resolution Trust Corporation, quote, 'I don't believe I knew anything about any of these real estate parcels and projects.' But after billing records showed Hillary Clinton had at least 14 conversations with Seth Ward, the major player in the deal, Mrs Clinton told Barbara Walters she knew the project by another name.

HILLARY CLINTON: ('20/20,' January 19, 1996) And so when I was asked about it last year, I didn't recognize it, I didn't remember it. The billing records show I did not do work for Castle Grande. I did work for something called IDC, which was not related to Castle Grande.

CHRIS BURY (VO): That is not how Susan McDougal, the Clintons' former business partner, remembers it.
SUSAN MCDOUGAL: It was always the same thing. As far as I know, IDC and- and- and Castle Grande were one and the same.


Clinton cover-ups do not work out in the long run.
It's not the initial decision to use her own private email account, it's the perceived cover-up. It was an attempted cover-up by Bill Clinton which resulted in his impeachment. "Bill Clinton, the 42nd President of the United States, was impeached by the House of Representatives on two charges, one of perjury and one of obstruction of justice, on December 19, 1998."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton

It was so painful and ugly, for me as a Democrat who had worked for Bill's election and even been a guest at his first inauguration, to go through all the years of investigations and embarrassing results thereof. If she's the Dem. nominee, we will all have to go through months and months of rehashing this yet again. Horrifying to contemplate. If the Clintons had come clean and cooperated with the Whitewater investigations, Ken Starr would never have gotten around to Monica Lewinsky.
 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
18. Thank you.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:22 AM
Aug 2015

Yes, this is what I was speaking to. It did not have to happen anymore than the current email server issue. What will be next? Will it occur before 2016 and impact the general if she wins the primary? Will it occur after she is elected (gods forbid!) and it is the 1990's all over again?

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
20. What a tangled & dramatic web the Clintons have woven over the decades.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:28 AM
Aug 2015

The intricate links with Sid Blumenthal alone are mind-boggling.

Our dear country has so very many horrific problems to deal with. The very last thing we need is to have our attentions & energies distracted by the Clintons' past, present and future baggage.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
22. I met my ex-wife in Arkansas
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:34 AM
Aug 2015

in the 1980's. I became aware of the Clinton's then.

You are so correct on all accounts.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
34. Whitewater is proof that it's not the crime it's the coverup, except when it distracts from a crime
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:03 PM
Aug 2015

A small scandal can often help obscure a far larger one.

Whitewater also has a parallel with Iran-Contra and Banghazi!. In each case: Whitewater/Iran-Contra/BCCI and Benghazi/Libya-Syrian/Qatari arms transfers, we have a minor (or made-up) scandal involving Hillary distracting public attention from a powerful bipartisan group involved in a major covert activity abroad.

Iran-Contra was eventually put to bed by the bi-partisan Hamilton Commission. That was a Kibouki inquiry -- the parallel Kerry Commission yielded a genuinely valuable, revealing report. If one reads the Kerry report, one learns that Whitewater was just a sideshow to a much larger scandal invoving Hillary's employer, the Rose Law Firm, and its part along with Lincoln Stephens in BCCI's takeover of Stephen's Werthen Bank and BCCI's looting of a number of large regional banks and S&Ls. Wholesale looting of US banks and land and oil price manipulation by a circle of Saudis and Americans (that included several Bush family members) was just a tip of the iceberg of a host of BCCI and CIA-related crimes in the 1980s that included drugs and arms running, political dirty-tricks, and all the usual things that rogue spooks do, seemingly without regard to borders, when they know they have political protection at the top and can get away with it. The Cold War excused practically anything.

That same attitude of nonaccountability extended to the Shrub Administration's Iraq and Afghanistan War scandals and into the current Administration's serial regime change operations in Libya and Syria, the neocon proxy war across the Mideast, in which Secretary Clinton had a leading role along with CIA Director Petraeus in promoting. The GOP Congress has been mostly cooperative in mischaracterizing the blowback that incurred the 2012 death of Ambassador Stevens and several Americans guarding a CIA arms depot about a mile from the Ambassador's residence. By creating a false scandal that has become known as Benghazi! -- the false accusation that the death of Stevens and the others was somehow intentional or due to State Dept. negligence -- the hapless Republican Congressmen have helped cover up yet another, far larger CIA operation gone bad.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
6. will ken starr and monica be making an appearance?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:02 AM
Aug 2015

young people have plenty of new material to like or dislike any of the candidates. this older stuff will be largely irrelevant

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
8. Sorry, but I think that is whistling in the dark.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:59 AM
Aug 2015

Also, these things may not matter to you, but they will be used by the GOP to stir up voters to get to the polls. The other thing about young people - they tend to look stuff up on the internet. It no longer works, that nothing to see here, move along technique. The dueling TV ads don't even reach them.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
10. no doubt about the gop
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:43 AM
Aug 2015

they will try and dig up everything since the day hillary and bill were born to get out the base. esp if jebbie is the nom, the trumpites hate him and i have already seen on "that other board" some said they would stay home or vote 3rd party trump if he goes rogue.

yes gop hates hillary for sure.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
11. That's why I am stunned by the assertion that she will easily beat the GOP, and that
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:48 AM
Aug 2015

supposedly it would be easier for her to work with a GOP Congress. They seem to spend a lot of their time investigating her and hating her now - imagine if she was president. They will not work with her any more than they work with Obama. Except for things that the GOP wants anyway. And that would be called "bipartisanship".

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
12. i never thought she had much of a chance in ge
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:52 AM
Aug 2015

precisely for the reason you just stated. they will make it their mission in life to see she is not elected and to disrupt everything she tries to do if she were.

we think the obstruction against pres obama was bad......we ain't seen nuthin yet

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
25. it is really hard to imagine
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:37 AM
Aug 2015

anyone hating the clintons as much as many of us hate gwb

don't even get me started on darth cheney......

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
9. Most of her supporters just are not paying attention yet.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:30 AM
Aug 2015

It is name recognition support.


Ask them what her position on TPP is and you would get the same blank stares.



 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
15. Well, she went from calling it the "gold standard" of trade agreements in her very recent
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:12 AM
Aug 2015

(less than a year ago?) book, and talked it up numerous times (forget how many, but it is documented very well elsewhere) all over the world, as SOS. Now she says she really did not work on it, and looks like she assumes Fast Track will prevent the contents being an issue, because nothing can be done by then.
I would give a blank stare, too - that seems safest, I guess.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
27. I think most responses are missing the point of the article
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:43 AM
Aug 2015

I've spoken to younger people who think the recent batch of allegations against HRC are troubling, and they have no idea how long this nonsense has been going on.

Someone - I think it Maddow - did a series of segments on "remember this 'Hillary scandal'" a while back. I think there may be a compilation of them on her site.

Everything from Tammy Wynette and making cookies, to Vince Foster and beyond.

ismnotwasm

(41,997 posts)
29. Yeah--I did at first
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:15 PM
Aug 2015

I read the title, saw the replies--THEN I read the article. Which is well worth reading

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
30. The Clintons made a major tactical blunder when they started out in politics
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:41 PM
Aug 2015

They chose to become Democrats.

There really is no reason for the republicans not to like Ms Clinton. She has always been the model of a center right republican. If you ignore her current (somewhat feeble and transparent) attempts to act like a progressive, and examine her actions as SoS, her votes as a Senator, various public pronouncements she made during her years as first lady, as well as those with whom she has chosen to associate, she would fit very nicely into the clown car with the other 17 bozos.

If she had an "R' after her name and favored fracking, Keystone pipeline, the TPP, and the Iraq war and opposed restoration of Glass Steagall, a $15 minimum wage she would probably be the favorite for the GOP nomination.

kath

(10,565 posts)
32. Ding ding ding ding.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:49 PM
Aug 2015

Great post.

If only they had joined the Repubs.
The damage to our Party has been horrendous, with all the infiltrators. I hope that somehow we can get it back.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
35. But, they would have been running against their strategic allies, the Bushes.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:25 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:43 PM - Edit history (2)

There isn't room for two Imperial Dynasties in the same Party. Besides, they give the global oligarchs such as the Stephens and bin Mahfouz-bin Laden clans a hedge in case the GOP fails to keep power.

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