There's nothing redeeming or politically valid in Sanders speaking at Falwell's Liberty University

[bigtree]

This isn't even triangulation, it's a blatant bid for the votes of racists and bigots who make it their life's purpose to work against the interests, needs, and concerns of women, minorities, Jewish individuals and anyone else who dares disagree with their religious doctrine of hatred and exclusion.

There's nothing to be gained in enlisting their ultra-conservative support for some economic platform while they actively seek to undermine basic liberties, rights, and values which progressives seek to defend and uphold.

To paraphrase Jeffrey Tayler at Salon speaking out against Jeb Bush cozying-up to Jerry Falwell Jr.'s religious school -where's the decency in giving heed to a university of haters,

""...founded and long administered by someone who had opposed Martin Luther King, the desegregation of public schools, the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court ruling legalizing abortion; had wanted the United States to expand, not end, the war in Vietnam; had supported apartheid, fought legislation forbidding discrimination against gays, spouted anti-Semitic rhetoric, and had voiced the opinion that the Anti-Christ walks among us as a Jewish male; had thought Chief Justice John Roberts not conservative enough, and, to top it off, showed de facto sympathy for al-Qaida by blaming Americans – especially gay and feminist Americans – for 9/11?"

"Falwell, said Jeb Bush, “turned his back on no one.” Well, no one except gays, who, Falwell said, had to endure AIDS as “God’s punishment,” as does “the society that tolerates homosexuals.” And at least for part of his too-long career, Falwell surely would also have turned his back on African-Americans. He boasted of having grown up in the “segregated South,” and believed that “The true Negro does not want integration. . . he realizes his potential is far better among his own race.”"

"For those who read the above words and wish to accuse me of being a “hater,” let me say this: you’re right. I hate that religion steals our funds – some $82.5 billion through tax exemptions in 2013 alone, for example – that we could have spent on our great needs, including rebuilding our infrastructure and bettering public education. I hate how its ignorant teachings about sex and reproduction cause unnecessary hardship, fostering underage pregnancies and the prevalence of STDs – all most problematic in the God-fearing red states. I loathe how it yearns for the world’s demise, and even has 49 percent of Americans believing that climate change is just another inevitable sign of the End of Days."

This is a kick in the face of anyone who believed their interest in black lives, LGBT lives, women's lives, or anyone's life which falls outside of the university's (and it's founder and administrator's) narrow box of hate would take exclusive prominence in the Vermont Senator's agenda. Apparently, for Sanders, bigots, homophobes, racists, and demagogues' votes matter in his campaign. What an amazing disconnect from the interests of those he purports to represent; what an amazing betrayal of their lives to give heed to such a hurtful and socially threatening institution.

[guillaumeb]

1. How about spreading the Sanders economic message to all voters?

Not just the likely Democratic voters? True, the majority of LU students may be totally non-receptive to Sanders' message, but Howard Dean employed the 50 state strategy with excellent results.

[bigtree]

3. they can hear him from where he stands

... or should be standing; in our Democratic fold.

[tularetom]

9. You mean our Democratic fold like speaking at Goldman Sachs for $200k

[dogknob]

88. Yeah, that. n/t

[guillaumeb]

10. But the symbolism of going to LU is quite strong.

Sanders is showing that he would be a President for ALL of the US, not just the blue state areas. A reference to President Obama's statement that he was the President of all of the US.

By this action Senator Sanders is showing that he wants to appeal to all voters, no matter the party affiliation, and showing that he has no problem appearing on front of a (presumably) hostile crowd. A big contrast to the GOP candidates who only appear in front of friendly audiences.

At least this is my interpretation.

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. Yes ... The symbolism IS quite strong ...

in a most undearing way.

[AllFieldsRequired]

43. This looks terrible. Tone deafness clearly is an issue for this campaign.

[guillaumeb]

55. So Sanders must only speak to the true believers, so to speak?

Is his message too weak to withstand the scrutiny of a (possibly) hostile audience?

[AllFieldsRequired]

59. Sigh...If Hillary did this, many Sanders supporters on this site would be SCREAMING

about it.

FACT

[guillaumeb]

68. True. But I stand by my points about spreading the message beyond

the faithful and the Dean 50 state strategy.

[FloridaBlues]

123. Don't think this is what Dean had in mind

[guillaumeb]

194. Then we must disagree on this point. eom

[Sheepshank]

210. So it has to be at this location to make the 50 state visit a reality?

THis school with it's required attendance to Cruz is the only place that Bernie thinks will promote more conservative votes for his bid?

I'm truly having some difficulty with the Pro Bernie spin on this. Three levels of subtlety isn't what is happening here. I fully agree with the OP and feel there is a slap in the face of not only minorities, but also many of the DEMS whom he wishes to vote for him.

I've said it before and I'm saying it again. EVERYTHING that Bernie is doing is in line to demolish the party. He doesn't strive for party building, he doesn't even want to address it, but he wants their votes. He turns his back on huge swaths of voting blocks in favor of those that want more riches, dream of a theocracy, and nothing else. He wants to be President but does nothing to ensure that the future of the party is solid and growing. If he ever gets his 4 years in office, he walks away, the Dems are in a world of hurt and the Republican glide on in. Just as the Dems are looking for redistricting and having majorities, the office of President will be snatched away.

[guillaumeb]

216. Let me reframe your argument:

When you wrote:
"I've said it before and I'm saying it again. EVERYTHING that Bernie is doing is in line to demolish the party. He doesn't strive for party building, he doesn't even want to address it, but he wants their votes. He turns his back on huge swaths of voting blocks in favor of those that want more riches, dream of a theocracy, and nothing else. He wants to be President but does nothing to ensure that the future of the party is solid and growing. If he ever gets his 4 years in office, he walks away, the Dems are in a world of hurt...."

All of this could have been said about Presidents Clinton and Obama. To wit:

Clinton signed NAFTA with assurances to all that the agreement would bring a huge growth in jobs. The opposite took place. Now Obama promises much the same thing. Is this not a slap in the face to organized labor, and the working class as a whole, to garner favor with the 1%? Given that the working class constitutes approximately 90% of the electorate, this is the ultimate in "turning his back on huge swaths..."

Clinton and Obama both attended the various prayer breakfast events. Why? Is this catering to the theocrats? Exactly when did the Commander in Chief become the Supreme Faith Leader?

Clinton signed the Gramm Leach Blily Act, the act that deregulated the financial industry and was the foundation of the latest financial collapse. Obama refused to even consider prosecution of the various bad actors who collapsed the economy. Why did each President take these actions? payback for the big money contributors?

[Sheepshank]

219. no, you don't need to rephrase my own words. Bernie is not a DEM

and his actions will hurt the long term health of the party. Period.

if you are still pissing about NAFTA etc, you can start your own piss and moan thread, your new topic has nothing to do with my post. You don't like other Dem Presidents? Why the heck are you on Democratic Underground to promote a non Dem candidate?

[guillaumeb]

220. Are Democratic candidates subject to a litmus test?

Given that Sanders' positions fall well within Democratic positions, is the word "socialist" so offensive to some Democrats?
Sanders does call himself a Democratic Socialist.

If Sanders can energize more people to vote, given his positions on the issues, it is likely that the Democratic Party will be the beneficiary.

[sheshe2]

163. guillaumeb.

I have always enjoyed talking to you and enjoyed our conversations yet,

So Sanders must only speak to the true believers, so to speak? Is his message too weak to withstand the scrutiny of a (possibly) hostile audience?

His message to BLM was far to weak. He failed. Were they hostile, yes. The reason? They believe their lives matter. Bernie wanted to talk economics, they wanted their life and death to be talked about. They do not want to be shot down unarmed in the street.They want justice. They want to live. Economic justice alone sure as hell will not give them that.

[guillaumeb]

187. True. But my point in this particular thread

was to emphasize that a Democratic candidate must take the message everywhere, even hostile territory.

As to the BLM aspect, while the Democrats are generally BETTER than their GOP counterparts, racial equality and equal justice are obviously still a dream for most non-whites. Whoever the Democratic candidate is, that candidate should realize this fact and accommodate to this reality.

I hope that this clarifies my position.

[guillaumeb]

54. And your meaning is...?

[1StrongBlackMan]

87. Liberty Union is ...

populated with racists and bigots who make it their life's purpose to work against the interests, needs, and concerns of women, minorities, Jewish individuals and anyone else who dares disagree with their religious doctrine of hatred and exclusion.

That is not a way to gain/keep the trust of the traditional Democratic base.

[questionseverything]

156. are you sure ALL of them are racists and bigots?

every single one of them?

i was taught anytime you group any group together and assume they all are the same you are probably mistaken

<shrug>

[1StrongBlackMan]

173. I'm pretty sure there is 1 or, perhaps, even a 100 that aren't ...

racist and/or bigoted ... but why risk the trust of a traditional loyal member of Democratic base, that he is already having troubles connecting with (i.e., African-Americans) in order to find those few.

You might see that as broadening his appeal and spreading his message; but, someone else might, recall your words regarding the Democrats losing the white voter, and see Liberty as pursuing the "Plan B."

i was taught anytime you group any group together and assume they all are the same you are probably mistaken

Really? And you consider that was a good lesson?

[questionseverything]

190. yes i do think it was a good lesson

not to stero type people...to try and judge them on their individual character

i take it you disagree...want to explain why?

[1StrongBlackMan]

193. I like myself and think myself reasonable ...

and I ascribe my belief about myself to everyone I meet ... until they prove otherwise.

[guillaumeb]

195. A valid concern.

Are you suggesting that this could be taken as a "Sister Souljah" moment by some?

[1StrongBlackMan]

197. Perhaps, a "reverse" Sister Souljah moment ...

i.e., his adoption/acceptance of a group with positions that is perceived to be at odds with the African-American community. Much like how the LGBT viewed President Obama's association with the anti-LGBT ministers.

[ieoeja]

199. Correct. The mass attack on Sanders on AA issues mirrors 2008 attack on Obama on LGBT issues.

I'm glad you of all people pointed out that suspicious similarity. It makes these attacks look like an organized propaganda campaign. And since the only thing really in common is Hillary running again, the implication is not good.


I gather you REALLY hated Obama and Hillary in 2008 since they both appeared on the 700 Club that year. The only difference in their appearances were their responses to anti-gay rhetoric. Obama replied, "you're wrong." Hilllary changed the subject.

[1StrongBlackMan]

200. I think you miss understood my statement ...

The mass attack on Sanders on AA issues mirrors 2008 attack on Obama on LGBT issues.

No, it doesn't. President Obama was, rightfully, taken to task for inviting those ministers to the table. And, the "attack on Sanders on AA issues", are equally warranted ... though neither were "organized propaganda"; but rather, affected groups speaking up.

[ieoeja]

203. Then Hillary was wrongly not taken to task for doing worse.

Obama went into the Lion's Den and argued against these people. Hillary went there and treated them like allies.

And of ccourse these are organized propaganda attacks. Same person running. Same type of attacks. It couldn't be more obvious if they went ahead and added "this attack brought to you by Ready For Hillary PAC".

[1StrongBlackMan]

205. Okay ... But this is not about HRC ...

She has not (to my knowledge) accepted to speak at Liberty.

This conspiracy theory stuff really doesn't look good on people who are supposed to know better.

[ieoeja]

206. Bernie has not (to my knowledge) accepted to appear on The 700 Club.

The naivety stuff on political campaigning doesn't look good on a political discussion board.

[1StrongBlackMan]

209. Okay. n/t

[guillaumeb]

214. An interesting point for speculation,

but based on what I have read about Sanders' personal history and what he has said on the issues, I think not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

215. I'm not saying that this is Bernie's intent, merely ...

as you note, speculating on how it might be seen.

[Bluenorthwest]

208. Liberty University is about 49% white, 15% black, many Latino and Asian and international

students as well. It has many LGBT students, and we feel sorry for all of their students gay and straight alike, but I sure as fuck don't think they are all racist homophobes. The school is homophobic, but so is the Catholic Church and the SBC and the LDS and Saddleback Church where Obama kept doing events and eventually brought their hate preacher home to tarnish the people's Inaugural.

It can't be just fine to go to Saddleback and bring Rick home with you but a great crime to speak at a college. It just can't. Not ethically.

[1StrongBlackMan]

211. I'm not saying what President Obama did was fine. n/t

[guillaumeb]

188. LU might be predominantly "populated with racists and bigots..."

as you well said, but that does not mean that every person there shares all the same hatreds. Speaking the message of economic populism is the goal, and converts can be won in the unlikeliest of places.

[winter is coming]

11. So we've now limited our audience to the party faithful.

The possibility of enlightening someone outside the party is no longer important? The possibility that if we can persuade some young minds that the GOP is wrong about climate change or economics, they might consider the GOP is wrong about other things, too?

Bernie's not fool enough to think he'll get votes from the LU crowd. If anything he says persuades anyone in that crowd to even question the claims of the GOP candidates, if he persuades some of them to not support them, that's more than he would have accomplished by not going there.

[potone]

196. Absolutely!

It is one thing to go to a place like Liberty University to endorse their views, and quite another thing to go there to challenge them. This is an educational institution and as such is supposed to expose students to different perspectives. I doubt that the students get much of that there, so this is important.

[kenfrequed]

20. It is Chutzpah!

Into the lions den?

Into the belly of the beast?

Like Nixon going to China?

Stop me quick, I am running out of metaphors...


Seriously, the worst that can happen is that the school will suddenly decide to "excuse people for religious reasons" and Sanders will be speaking at an empty hall. The next worse thing is that everyone is sullen and silent since Sanders' policies are wildly oppositional.

Anything else is a win.
If they react negatively or Boo or make a lot of noise then it is a story.
If some people change their minds or some of the evangelical community start waking up to other possibilities, that would also be a win.
If he makes young impressionable college kids question the values of neo-conservaitve republican bullshit then that would also be a win.

Where is the harm?

Personally, I think it is Bernie's time to waste and his windmill to tilt at, and in case you haven't noticed Bigtree, Bernie has managed to get a lot of Democrats here and at his events very excited. Since you have been wildly critical of him from the very begining I really don't know what Senator Sanders owes you personally.

[bigtree]

25. Sanders doesn't owe me anything?

...yet it's fine for him to reach out to bigots? Inspiring.

[kenfrequed]

30. Huh

So every single kid whose parents packed them up and shipped them off to Liberty is automatically a bigot?


Really? You don't think there aren't some people there with doubts or who might be convinced of a better way of looking at things?


He is going there to get eaten alive. A socialist, New England, Jew is going to a wildly conservative, fundametalist, evangelical, Christian, Republican college to talk to people that would sooner chew their arms off than vote for him. He is bringing a progressive message to them. There is something admirable about that.


Did you think Ted Kennedy was "reaching out to bigots" as well?

[bigtree]

40. yes, Kennedy was reaching out to bigots

...but not soliciting votes as a presidential candidate, nor running in a Democratic primary.

[kenfrequed]

45. Well thanks for the discussion

You seem to have already made up your mind about Sanders and don't care about his record as a Senator or his positions as a presidential candidate.

Personally, I like a candidate who will hold fast to his ideals and go and confront the opposition where they live and is willing to walk into the fire of those who oppose him.

[Bluenorthwest]

147. Obama 08. Two vids. McClurkin at Obama event, Obama asked at forum about that screed.

This first is McClurkin, an 'ex gay' who says gay people kill children so Christians have to take the gloves off and go to war against us, at an official Obama Primary event:

Obama is asked about this at about 3:30 in this clip.

I don't get why some people can reach out to bigots using actual bigots but others can't even go talk to kids at a Christian college.
That sort of double standard reeks. And I reject it. Strongly.

[bigtree]

150. so you think that was wrong, but this is fine?

...I don't know what point you're making.

Did you denounce 'a' before you criticized 'b'?

There's no double standard here. Just your strawman, and it's not really clear what you're defending here. These innocent college kids? Don't they have access to Sanders at other venues? What's the purpose or need to grace this bigoted university with our Democratic candidate's presence?

[questionseverything]

152. are you having this much of a problem with potus negotiating with iran?

or the us trading with china or with the us buying saudi oil?

we talk,work with people all the time that we do not agree with 100%

the democratic party is a big tent or should be

we have a saying at my house.....the 99% of us are all democrats,wether they know it yet or not

lots of people were raised republican but as they went out into the world and learned the "other" were not as bad as they had been led to believe they evolved and became democrats...and that is a good thing

[bigtree]

155. the old deflection switcheroo?

...pass.

[Bluenorthwest]

161. Gee wiz straight man, you said Teddy was not there as a candidate in a Democratic Primary so

I showed you an event with that filled the criteria you demanded. This clearly upsets you. Clearly these events never crossed your mind when you wrote the OP.

[bigtree]

167. clearly you can't defend this appearance on its merits

...and you seem to believe that heckling me for being a 'straight man' is acceptable discourse. Do you believe being gay gives you some special exception to labeling and slurs?

You seem to be under the misconception that I'm inclined to give Obama a pass for behavior I think is objectionable. I don't think his wrongful associations are any less objectionable than Sanders giving credence to this bigoted university. But, your little test that you can't measure up to - the criticize 'a' in a DU post before you can criticize 'b' - is an absurd demand. I'm not playing your little game.

Now I've had enough of your personal attacks. You obviously can't discuss this appearance on its merits, or are more interested in trying to label me as a hypocrite. I think its the latter, and I've had enough of it. You're out of line and way off base suggesting I have any hesitation at all criticizing Obama or any other politician when I believe they're wrong.

By the way, I criticized Jeb Bush on his appearance at the university and I have no qualms in criticizing ANY Democrat or any other political figure who cozies up to this university.

[Bluenorthwest]

207. I believe you want to talk about me, not the issue at hand. You rejected Teddy at Liberty because

it was not a primary campaign, so I gave you examples of a primary campaign Democrat pandering on full steam. Do you presume that you must not be contradicted with facts? You asked for Primary candidate examples, I gave them, that makes you angry because you have no response other than to berate me some more.

I am pointing out that you are employing a double standard, that your offense at speaking to a college crowd of Christians is odd considering you did not have any offense at the openly anti gay bigotry Obama engaged in to win votes.

You went out of your way to post this, but you did no such thing when my community was being berated in this Party by a candidate you supported.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not here to be your football to kick. I'll post any examples I wish. If you are unable to muster a response, that is your failing.

[bigtree]

223. is there something about this sentence you don't understand?

"I don't think his (Obama's) wrongful associations are any less objectionable than Sanders giving credence to this bigoted university."

And again. I don't post every time I have an objection and I'm not going to take your guff for failing to post on that one. Like I've said to you, it's not as if YOU post on everything that's objectionable to MY community, but you don't see me holding you to your ridiculous standard. You put Obama out there like I never criticized him. That's some bullshit right there. I've slammed him numerous times and was NOT a supporter of his in the primary campaign his first time around.

FFS, you're wasting my time. I think Sanders is wrong here. I'm still waiting for you to say the same, especially since you appear to be equating Obama's actions with this.

And by the way, I'm not going to forget that you attempted to slur me by referring to me as 'straight man' as if I have something to be ashamed of. Is this the standard of discourse that you'd like to see ME engage in with YOU?

I've yet to see you reach out to my community as much as I've attempted to support and advocate for yours, and I've gotten more than my share of guff from you for making the effort. I think I've taken it pretty well and have not tried to return the deed by jumping on your posts to castigate you for one thing or the other. Still you want to make like it's my problem? Check yourself. This is far too personal a response from you for my expressing my opinion here. I don't feel a bit of hypocrisy in making these criticisms. I've been a consistent advocate for LGBT rights, black lives, and other social concerns here. I certainly don't deserve you tagging onto my posts like I was some enemy to your own concerns. Yes, I'm a heterosexual man, and I can be insensitive and negligent in making every effort to be sensitive and attentive to others who may hold a different life experience than my own. But, I'm certainly open to care enough to make an effort at advocacy and I certainly am sensitive enough to these issues related to sexual orientation, gender, race and the rest to speak out when I feel I can and should. I don't demand perfect fealty to my own personal concerns, and I appreciate the effort folks here make in that regard. You won't find me castigating people here for failing to respond to each and every instance where I feel my personal issues have been aggrieved, and I expect the same consideration.

Now I've given you far more time and consideration than I think you've given me, and I'm done with this morality test of yours. Have your say, but I'm done responding to you on this thread.

[AllFieldsRequired]

44. If HIllary did this you wouldnt be attacking her for it? I dont know you, but I KNOW

many here would be.

[kenfrequed]

49. Well...

You are right about that.

You don't know me.

I judge a candidate based on the policies they support and the positions they take. I also like to look at their donor list. If Bernie Sanders walks in there and presents the ideas of a progressive and why that is so important to Liberty University then I don't see a problem.

I will have a problem if he goes soft on positions he stands for or backpedals or prevaricates or apes conservative positions.

It is about policy.

[AllFieldsRequired]

51. OK, I may have responded to one of the few Bernie supporters here, other than myself,

who doesnt take every opportunity to say shit about Hillary.

I know there are a few here, you may well be one, but one cant help but see a whole lot of the opposite.

[kenfrequed]

60. Most of us are here to talk about Bernie

The vast, overwhelming majority of Sanders supporters here have long since put a lot of people on 'ignore' because of the amount of havoc and pain brought on by primary season.

Sanders has been left and good on policy for decades and I prefer voting for the candidate that was correct the first time about so many issues.

[AllFieldsRequired]

63. Are you saying most people at Democratic Underground are here to support Bernie?

Is he even a registered Democrat yet?

I know there is a poll here somewhere showing way more people here support him than Hillary, I think I saw that, but at the end of the day, isnt this DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND?

I hope Bernie gets the nomination, but if he doesnt, I wonder how many will still be supporting the Democratic Party.

[kenfrequed]

64. And...

We get to that canard.

I'm sorry, but that is one of those "spin" things.

Bernie is running for the Democratic nomination to run for President and has stated he will support whoever is nominated by the Democratic party.


Considering what you wrote previous to this, I am a little disappointed.

[AllFieldsRequired]

69. Are you saying more people here support Bernie than Hillary? If so, how many will still be here

if Bernie loses?

You see I do support Bernie, but only to the point where he can beat the right. Sure I would love his policies to become the norm, as I am firmly behind him on all the Democratic Socialist ideals, but I dont believe he will be allowed to do much at all if in power, but he can get the ball rolling.


What I care more about than anything is making sure the right wing does not take the WH, because if they do, the harm will be insurmountable.

[kenfrequed]

75. Well...

My worry is that a candidate that seems utterly selected by the establishment and has a ton of Wallstreet money is not going to do much to reform the problems of inequality in America.

I think worse that if we end up with an election of Bush vs Clinton it will fail to properly turn out our base as well and it will drive away infrequent voters because they will see this more as a contest of coronations rather than a proper election. As Democrats we ALWAYS want voter turn out to be as high as possible AND we need to turn out our base in a big way with lots of energy. Republicans typically win by suppressing the vote (see also Ohio and Florida in years past)

Clinton activates the conservative base that has been running against her for between six and eight years while slightly dampening a contingent of the progressives that were are better off having show up than not. (Hell if you include the Clinton years in the Whitehouse, the Clinton hate becomes practically multi-generational)

Sanders is an independent that has a history of bucking the system a bit and pushing progressive issues after many Democrats have given up. He has a good record for winning votes and he holds tightly to his progressive ideals and votes his conscience.

He can make this election about people vs money in a way that Hillary is going to have trouble doing with her funding and past with the banks.

[AllFieldsRequired]

77. Agreed that Hillary will bring out the haters, but not more than Obama brought out.

Which is still a lot, granted.

I believe the desire to see our first woman president, and not just any woman, but Hillary, will be in her favor.

But I see your point.

Regardless, as we can see with the Supreme Court, we better make god damn sure a republican is NOT President anytime soon.

[kenfrequed]

82. And I think Bernie has a better shot

My first pick was Warren, when she wasn't running I went with Sanders. Like I said earlier, policy is the most important thing and that is what I base my support on.

[arcane1]

41. My father got a bachelor's degree at Liberty when in his 50's.

He's a republican, but he's not a bigot. I'm sure he's not the only one.

[beam me up scottie]

98. No doubt the op thinks he's a racist too.

If he claims Ted Kennedy was pandering to racists he'll throw anyone under the bus for Martin O'Malley.

[villager]

56. I look forward to you posting this reliably every time Obama or Clinton attend a National Prayer

...Breakfast.

[bvf]

65. Wait for the damned speech

and count the dog whistles afterward.

How many do you think you'll find?

[peacebird]

129. Liberty U in Lynchburgoffers a dirt cheap education, for some kids it is all about getting a diploma

And they are willing to ignore the religious trappings in order to afford it.

I think the Hillary folks are all poutraged because Bernie is closing the gap and doing so well. If Bernie going to Liberty to give his usual stump speech causes this much angst among them, well, tells me they fear her cake walk to the coronation is going as well as in 08....

[arcane1]

39. Indeed, look at how much effort is spent right here on DU to convince us this is a failed idea

Concerted effort, even, to convince us of this before he gives the speech.

It's very telling.

[bvf]

50. +1

[HereSince1628]

58. Bernie steps out of establishment straight jacket, establishment supporters disapproves

Bernie beat some candidates to a group of potential voters.

What an over-reaction.

[artislife]

104. +1 nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Ted Kennedy spoke at Liberty University

I don't begrudge him for getting free publicity...

[bigtree]

12. he'll be following other notable publicity seekers who spoke at convocations there

03/31/2015

Right-wing megachurch pastor Robert Jeffress spoke at Liberty University's convocation this morning, where he told the student audience that America's complete collapse was unavoidable, thanks to Supreme Court rulings banning organized prayer and Bible study in public schools, legalizing abortion, and striking down bans of gay sex. These rulings, Jeffress declared, have "so weakened the moral and spiritual infrastructure of our nation that our collapse is inevitable," explaining that the 9/11 terrorist attack was God's judgment upon America for the sin of abortion....

[arcane1]

37. So, Jeffress, Kennedy, and Sanders agree on everything, because they all spoke at the same location?

Got it.

[Armstead]

46. Did you have a problem with that right wing pastor President Obama invited to speak

at the inauguration? Rick Whatzis (Warren?)name.

[840high]

107. ....x10

[immoderate]

62. They are all connected to Kevin Bacon!

--imm

[Fred Sanders]

164. The Ted Kennedy false equivalency versus topical reality is simply the best the supporters of this very bad move have.

I say take it easy on them, even bad moves have to be defended somehow until the move is undone.

[Sheepshank]

217. Pandering for votes in an election season is all on Bernie

that wasn't the timeline for Kennedy, according to posts up thread that you may not have read since they were inserted after you posted.

[artislife]

4. It's not like they are voters

Oops. .I guess a president would see them as citizens.

[bigtree]

14. it's always the Hillary defense with Sanders supporters here

...she's not my candidate. I do not think the racial undertones from the 2008 campaign were 'o-tay' (whatever the fuck that means).

[tularetom]

17. If I told you what the fuck it means you'd accuse me of being a racist

So you'll just have to figure it out for yourself.

[bigtree]

19. I know what it means

...and I think it's despicable that you'd employ that in any capacity to describe my views or Hillary's.

I'm a 54 year-old black man. I don't need anyone to inform me about basic tenets of racism or bigotry. I've lived them.

[tularetom]

32. OK, I probably shouldn't have used that expression in that context and I apologize for doing so

But I'm not backing off one inch from my disgust at the shitty way the Clintons treated Obama in 08. My opinion of them was already pretty low, but their actions put down to the level of whale shit.

Furthermore, I think they won't hesitate to stab him in the back again if it helps Clinton to get the nomination or to lure a few hard working white Americans into her corner in the general election campaign, assuming she's still around at that point.

[bettyellen]

76. O-tay? For what reason are you quoting Buckwheat from The Little Rascals? What are you snarking at

with THAT bit of whistling?

[tularetom]

83. Yes, that expression was inappropriate and I've already apologized to the other poster for using it

However, I stand by the point of my post which was to express my disgust at the Clinton's slimy treatment of Obama in 08.

And my certainty that they will again throw him under the bus if they think it will gain them some white votes in the 2016 primaries.

[bettyellen]

86. Well, if you were trying to disprove Sanders campaign(ers) issue of being "racially tone deaf" you

kinda fucked up there. In fact, you kind of proved that point.
I'm embarrassed DU has gotten this low. Seriously, it is embarrassing at this point.

[tularetom]

91. In other words you prefer patronizing and insincere to "racially tone deaf"?

Talk is cheap and political campaign talk is the cheapest of all.

[bettyellen]

92. In other words- you're racially charged bit of snark was disturbing. Full stop. No need to blame

anyone else or drag them into a conversation about you and other Sanders supporters. That shit is juvenile.

[Number23]

120. + a million. I just can't anymore

[bettyellen]

144. Is "Clinton dog-whistled first" a real answer? Not the first time I have seen shitty things excused

with a Clinton did it first reply. Sounds pretty childish- can't help expressing some really inappropriate anger to anyone who has a valid issue. It is bizarre, and ugly. O-tay my ass. What the fuck was that?

[Number23]

168. Not only that but the crocodile tears about "racist dog whistles" before deploying one himself

That kind of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness would be funny as hell if it wasn't how EVERYTHING got done around here these days. The Clinton campaign in 2008 has nothing on this crowd.

Glad that the jury hid that bullshit. 7-0 hide too.

[AtomicKitten]

171. that's not a Sanders' campaign issue

it's a Clinton campaign meme,

a manufactured, race-baiting Clinton campaign(ers') meme

[bettyellen]

186. It's a real issue when people think "O-Tay" is a funny response.

And it maybe a Sander's campaigner issue- but it's fucking repulsive and the sooner they all wise up to it the better. It's not just here, it's on Twitter and all over the web- this snarky resentment of BLM.
Sanders was smart enough to listen and hone his message, which is awesome. Acknowledging issues are worthy is good, no matter who does it. Can't agree with this pandering bullshit toward either candidate.

[AtomicKitten]

204. He apologized.

You can either accept it or use it to pummel him ad infinitum, however, choosing the latter reveals more about you than him. We all here come from a different upbringing and background, and our language arising from that environment does not always mean the same thing.

Look, after reading all I could get my hands on re: this manufactured meme of "Bernie's problem" you are promoting, it is crystal clear that (1) this is the Clinton campaign(ers) yet again using race as a political cudgel. The audacity of that after her race-baiting campaign in '08 is surreal. (2) It is also clear that some in BLM are using the organization as a tool of the Clinton campaign to pummel the opponent of concern that is moving up in polling. Bernie is being misquoted to erect a strawman for the daily bonfire. Saying if he doesn't do/say what BLM insists he do/say, he's ignoring them and, if he does do/say what they insist, he's pandering. It's an absurdly untenable position that, again, reveals more about the collective you than it does him.

It is understandable why the Clinton campaign is trying to peel off the economic inequality issue because of her coziness with Wall Street and banks, but that's her problem, not Bernie's. There's an excellent video about race-baiting circling the boards here that illustrates what I in my clumsy way am trying to impart here. Bernie's record stands in stark contrast to the attempted swiftboating of him in progress. Mocking his consistently good record on civil rights and liberties is proof-positive of that and, again, say it with me now, reveals more about the collective you than it does him. It's reminiscent of the purple heart Band-Aid the wingnuts wore in 2004. It was truly repulsive then and is truly repulsive now seeing it done to one of the Democratic candidates by other Democrats.

Please for dog's sake let this primary be about issues. I am weary of this extraneous nonsensical theater being perpetrated as a distraction from the issues. Let's start the debates.

[bettyellen]

218. People here (and everywhere) saying stupid shit like "O-tay" it ain't manufactured or a meme.

For fucks sake you'd have to be ignorant to think it's manufactured. Bernie's only problem is how poorly the excuses people make for this kind of offensive shit- including and especially pretending the offense is not real. I remember the same things said about BLM.

I don't have a candidate yet. I think a lot of people don't. Good fucking luck telling them they are all part of some Clinton plot or some such when they question this insufferable rudeness seen again and again- or referring it to theater.

[AtomicKitten]

221. I didn't say THAT is the meme. I re-read what I wrote and what I wrote is clear.

Now you are going off on something I did not say. Pretty much what the collective you is doing to Bernie. The meme I am referring to - and something I believe I made crystal clear - is some nebulous problem Bernie allegedly has with race. Bernie doesn't have a problem with race. If anybody has a problem with race, it's Hillary with specific reference to her race-baiting campaign in 2008 and using race as a political cudgel. It didn't work for her then and it won't work for her now. It is supremely weird to see people I stood shoulder to shoulder with supporting Obama against this crap from Clinton in 2008 defend the same crap being dished up now. I haven't changed my mind, they have and they've overplayed their hand.

I yearn for issue-based discussion. Substantive discussion on matters I care about, matters that other people care about. I would urge people to step back from this cult of personality which the Clinton campaign is marinating in and trying to project on Bernie. I want the candidates to answer questions, all of the candidates. Hillary is utterly squishy and evasive on too many questions. That matters to people not swept up in the silly gimmicks in lieu of answering the questions.

Best of luck discerning which candidate represents your values, your views, your dreams. Because in the end, it's about us and not the politicians.

[djean111]

6. I feel the same way when Hillary takes big money to assure the bankers that we are meanies to

pick on them. They tanked the economy, and she told them "we" all tanked it together. Fuck that.

If it was somehow expected that Bernie would pander to this crowd, I could see the outrage. But I sincerely doubt that he will pander - he will just state what he believes in. If even a few of that young crowd are reached, or question what they have been spoon-fed, that seems good to me. He is not taking money from them; he was invited to speak.

And it is not like Bernie has said he would invite Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration, is it?

[aikoaiko]

7. I see the OM HRC camps are annoyed at being out flanked.

[bigtree]

15. I'm not in the 'Hillary camp'

...so you'll need another impossible defense of your candidate.

[aikoaiko]

18. Notice the OM which is your camp

Whoops.

[bigtree]

21. this is outflanking?

...it's a clear surrender of values and principle for political gain.

[aikoaiko]

29. He wants to serve all Americans.

I know that in this age of Identity politics it seems strange

[arcane1]

34. The nerve of him, wanting to convince people that don't agree, to agree

What kind of insane candidate goes around trying to convince people to vote for their ideas??

[cyberswede]

70. I don't agree that he's surrendering his values.

He's not going to change his positions, he's just going to share them with a particular audience. If his message reaches even a few open-minded students, that's a good thing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Don't throw me into that briar patch.

I couldn't care less where he speaks.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. What's he running for again? President of Everyone Left of Center?

Oh, right...it's President of the United States. presumably the whole thing.

He won't be converting to the Tea Party. He won't be giving ground to lunatics. He'll be talking about his plans, his vision. These people could stand to hear such a message. Senator Sanders is not bound by the rules of DU's GD forum.

[whatchamacallit]

13. Maybe he should have chosen Saddleback n/t

[Puglover]

212. You gotta LOVE the flaming hypocrites in this thread who were

excoriating LGTB folks because we were pissed that President Obama chose Rick Warren to give the convocation at his 1st inauguration.

Sometimes I wonder if it's willful lack of memory or something else.


I notice but stopped giving a shit a long time ago. Now a snipe from this crowd is like a badge of honor.

[whatchamacallit]

213. Yup

[Ron Green]

16. Unrecommended.

TOPS.

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. I'm glad you noticed this, too ...

One step forward; two steps back.

[whatchamacallit]

26. Yeah

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=497378

[Maedhros]

24. Whoa there, big horse.

Before you start excoriating Bernie for speaking at Liberty University, maybe you should take a closer look at your own candidate?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/08/05/martin-omalley-just-prior-populist-presidential-bid-steered-democrats-pro-business/

In 2011, O’Malley co-founded a group called The NewDEAL, a nonprofit described as an effort to highlight the work of “pro-business progressives.” Rather than championing anti-bank populists, the group worked to promote moderate Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper and former Miami Mayor Manny Diaz, now an attorney who counts Walmart as a client.

The website for The NewDEAL does not list board members. But the group’s annual tax filing does, revealing a number of lobbyists who helped oversee the group. Under O’Malley’s leadership, the board of the group included Comcast vice president for federal affairs Melissa Maxfield, public relations executive Claude Fontheim, and lobbyists James Bonham and John Michael Gonzalez.

Gonzalez’s lobbying firm, Peck Madigan Jones, represents the very Wall Street interests O’Malley now decries. The firm recently lobbied on behalf of a trade group that represents Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan Chase, among other banks, on efforts to slow down Dodd-Frank reforms through cost-benefit analysis reports.

What's "redeeming" about O'Malley's hiring of Wall Street lobbyists for his campaign?

In 2012, when O’Malley chaired the group, the Democratic Governors Association collected donations from Sallie Mae, Highstar Capital, Wells Fargo, and VISA, among other financial industry firms.

According to one recent report, O’Malley has also reached out to bankers for contributions, meeting in recent months with officials from Morgan Stanley.

Or taking money from the financial industry?

Sanders went to Liberty University to tell them about his campaign, not to ask for their advice or their money.

[bigtree]

27. nice try

...we can have an economic debate over O'Malley's policies or politics, but it's not racist or bigoted to promote “pro-business progressives.” Not even close.

[Maedhros]

66. It's not racist or bigoted to speak at Liberty University, either.

Stop playing the race card on Bernie. It's bullshit.

[bigtree]

72. there is no 'race card'

...it's a made-up canard to deflect and dismiss issues and discussions of race and racism.

It's not necessarily racist or bigoted to speak there, true - but it's giving credence and recognition to racists and bigots who organize there and work to impose their racist and bigoted beliefs on society.

[Maedhros]

89. Saying that Sanders is making "it's a blatant bid for the votes of racists and bigots"

is playing the race card, and you should know better.

Your point is nonsensical, disingenuous and a low blow.

[bigtree]

94. again, there is no race card. It's a deflection used to dismiss discussion of race issues

...You may well disagree with me but the 'low blow' is having this presidential candidate identifying himself as a Democrat, appealing for votes in our Democratic primary, also appealing for the votes of those attending a university known for its religious bigotry.

You shouldn't be so shocked that a black man would speak out against this appearance.


I also criticized Jeb Bush's appearance there http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026647828#post3

[Maedhros]

96. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I really can't.

I'm just going to put you on ignore, and suggest you do the same for me.

[bigtree]

97. ha!

...I don't need a button to ignore you.

Quite sad that you can't tolerate beliefs and opinions outside of your own without characterizing them as some kind of political plot. Is there anything you believe in more than expressing support for and defending a politician?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

117. Jury results

On Thu Aug 6, 2015, 08:25 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Saying that Sanders is making "it's a blatant bid for the votes of racists and bigots"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=497740

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Accusing a black du member of playing the race card. Despicable and a true embarrassment for DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Aug 6, 2015, 08:31 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I feel the poster in question was civil in his disagreement of the OP and did not say anything offensive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is getting confusing. So much heat, on all sides.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The whole thread is silly. No sense alerting on just another food nugget for the trolls.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Armstead]

106. Oh shit....That's why I get a luukewarn feeling about O'Malley

Another centrist Trojan Horse we don't need

[yeoman6987]

28. And this is why we will always be a split country

Nobody on either side won't even listen to each other. I respect senator sanders for doing this. More should go to opposing sides more often.

[bigtree]

79. this supposes there's some validity in the religious zealots' bigotry

...which should be given equal recognition with objections to those exclusionary doctrines.

[yeoman6987]

113. I guess

All I know is that putting a line in the sand is not working. Time for drastic measures.

[arcane1]

31. Any self-respecting candidate would be charging $3,000 to hear him speak! n/t

[Adrahil]

33. Nah! I say go for it Bernie!

If Bernie thinks he can reach some minds, then I say go for it. I'm not sure I think it's the best primary strategy for him, but I can;t really see how it would hurt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. +1

I couldn't care less where he speaks.

[840high]

108. +2

[Doctor_J]

36. But you were OK with the president appearing on Fox

begging O'Reilly not to call him a liberal.

Why the hypocrasy?

[bigtree]

53. lying about me being 'OK with the president appearing on Fox'

...isn't making the case for your candidate.

Where's the honasty?

[Comrade Grumpy]

42. There's a lot of stink coming off this OP.

[bigtree]

57. well, take it all in

...it'll help block the whiff of raw political expediency here in defense of this indefensible political act.

[cyberswede]

73. "indefensible political act" - speaking to American college students?

I disagree.

[Cheese Sandwich]

47. I think it's a great idea. Maybe we can convert some of them. We have to try.

If we don't talk to them at all, then we're leaving them to be organized by Rush Limbaugh and Christian fundies and right-wing hate groups. We have to offer them a choice, offer them a way out.

[KoKo]

99. ....!

[Thinkingabout]

48. I really can't believe so many are having a hard time deciding why Bernie is speaking to Liberty

University. Ted Cruz has had the largest audience of any of the candidates. If Bernie speaks to Liberty University then he can claim the largest audience on the DNC side. Why does Liberty University have large gatherings, simple, it is compulsory they attend. This is not because they want to attend and agree with the speakers, they have to do so.

[senz]

71. He's already HAD the largest audience among 2016 candidates.

He doesn't need Liberty University for that. Bernie is trying to reach ALL Americans. Hope he'll reach you someday.

[Thinkingabout]

74. Bernie does not have the largest audience of the candidates, he is hoping to get the largest of the

DNC and maybe the GOP. I don't know if a compulsory attendance is the same as voluntary audience buy it might make Bernie happy

[senz]

81. "Bernie Sanders Continues to Draw the Biggest Crowds of Any 2016 Candidate"

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-19/bernie-sanders-continues-to-draw-the-biggest-crowds-of-any-2016-candidate

I read the same thing in Time Magazine this morning while at a waiting room.

Back to the drawing board, Thinkingabout.

[Juicy_Bellows]

52. Where's the concern stemming from really?

Sanders has spoken in a lot of places to a lot of different people with different views. It's a big country. Maybe his message will be shouted down at Liberty, maybe he will get a lot of flak from the audience. Perhaps some in the crowd will appreciate his message and appreciate that he took the time to speak to the 'unworthy'.

If this was the only place Sanders spoke I would agree with you but he is casting as wide a net as possible and that is a good thing.

[msongs]

61. Jesus reached out to the sinners. (if u believe all that stuff). was he wrong for that? Preaching to

the choir might make for better after choir potlucks but it will not spread any kind of message. there's more to politics than private house parties for wall street billionaires.

[KoKo]

101. ...!

[senz]

67. Bernie has made it clear

that he's not merely courting Democratic insiders. He's talking to ALL Americans who have suffered under Reagan/Bush (and, yes, some Clinton) policies.

“For me to win, it would require a grassroots effort on the part of literally millions of people. Unprecedented,” he says. “What we need now is a political revolution.”

Got it?

[The empressof all]

78. He's running for President for all Americans

I look at any attempt to educate the uninformed is a good thing. Many of those attending this event are young voters who may only have heard the Conservative message. It's a good thing to hear the other side.

His speaking at the University is not endorsing their policies or message just as the University supporting his speech is not an endorsement of Bernie....

This is a good thing...and honestly give credit to Liberty for hosting him. It surprised me.

[still_one]

80. Wrong. Sanders is NOT going there to "preach to the choir". He is going there to explain to them

how they have been misled by their leaders. He is going there to try and change minds and perspectives.

[mike_c]

84. talk about scrapping the bottom of the barrel....

Concern noted.

[KT2000]

85. Can't agree with this -

So many RWers are living in a bubble of their own media so all they know about Sanders is what their media says. I bet some will have their eyes opened and some may experience cognitive dissonance they will have to work out. If they start questioning the incongruity of their party's positions with their faith (as taught to them by racists and bigots and greed-heads), some may jump out of the bubble.

[arcane1]

105. Yep, he's going right into the bubble with Truth, some may have never heard before.

I think this is just today's baseless attempt at shitting on him, and nothing more.

[Qutzupalotl]

90. How has freezing them out been working for ya?

[tk2kewl]

93. nice try

to get the government back working for ordinary americans it's going to take a broad coalition of ordinary americans. you don't have to have them over for dinner, but if they're on your side fighting for economic fairess, you start changing the discussion on the right and maybe pick up some converts.

and Bernie's positions and record clearly indicate he abhors all of the things you try to paint him with.

[bigtree]

95. well, he clearly doesn't oppose appealing for votes of students

...attending a university well-known for its religion-based bigotry.

[arcane1]

100. The nerve of him, trying to get misguided youth to see things more clearly.

What an asshole

[KoKo]

102. People have been converted when hearing a message of CHARITY for THE PEOPLE...

We have to change the direction of this country...and if he was asked to appear and speak to students there....it's a very good thing to do.

His message is about EQUALITY. They are Christians who have forgotten Christ's Messages. Bernie could remind them. And, he's Old Testament so he can preach the New Testament because he has "evolved."

I think its a good thing.

If Obama had done this...we all here would be praising him for "Reaching Out" to the RW and what Great President he would be because he Speaks the Truth to those who Need to Hear It.

Why the push back on this?

[tk2kewl]

110. Both Bernie and the university are unabashedly on the record with opposing views on these issues

It's clearly an arrangement where both parties appear to be agreeing to disagree on a wide range of issues but interested in where they may find common ground.

Anyone who knows Bernie's career (especially his political opponents) knows he has never and will never pander to any position.

I think your OP is a smear

[bigtree]

114. the op is an opinion

...of course, ANY criticism of the politician has been called a 'smear' by Sanders supporters at DU. It's amazing how little regard his supporters have for the views they insist he represents when anyone calls him out on disrespecting them with his rhetoric or actions.

Objecting to racism and bigotry is no mere disagreement. Bigots and racists are attacking and threatening classes and groups of Americans, and the targets of their hatred are defending themselves against the assaults.

Bernie can appeal to those voters without giving credence to this bigoted university with an appearance there. This appearance legitimizes this university and allows them to posture as some alternative entity, rather than the pernicious and separatist institution they aspire to behind their religious front. They don't deserve the validation of participation in ANY political debate; much less a debate with a Democratic primary candidate.

[tk2kewl]

174. you know better

He is not giving credence to any of those positions. Your 'opinion' only serves to muddy the waters for people who are not familiar with Bernie's life-long unwavering positions on these matters. That is why I think it is a smear.

[bigtree]

182. just speaking there is giving validation to this group

...speaking there as a Democratic candidate for president in the middle of a Democratic primary is a bizarre way to appeal for Democratic votes.

[tk2kewl]

185. i disagree...

we speak to Iran in an attempt to find common ground and make peace.

if we want to take the government back from the moneyed interests we look at all americans as potential partners. we don't have to agree on issues across the board.

the us/them paradigm you are talking about is the political narrative that has been set by the media and has kept americans fighting between themselves for decades while neoliberal economic policies continue to crush everyone but the very well off.

we need to work together with everyone to find common ground for a way forward. There is way too much at stake in the next few decades to continue with an us/them approach.

and it's my view that when adversaries find common ground, they begin to recognize each other as human being with certain basic rights. it is the only way

[TM99]

192. The O'Malley speaking at the Third Way think tank

gives validation to that group.

So is he a traditional progressive Democrat? Or is he a Third Way New Dem? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Vattel]

103. Oh no, Sanders is trying to change the minds of people he disagrees with.

How horrible.

[840high]

109. Imagine that - horrible man

Go Bernie!

[bigtree]

111. in other words

...there's no vote Sanders deems too objectionable to make an appeal for.

Not very inspiring to me. Here I thought the movement was about inspiring progressive voters to the polls. All the while, the plan's actually been to appeal to bigots to make up the difference.

~~only slightly sarcastic~~

[Vattel]

116. He said why he was going. Why not take him at his word?

Sanders said he would like to see if “we can reach consensus regarding the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality in our country, about the collapse of the middle class, about the high level of childhood poverty, about climate change and other issues.”

What a lot of people are missing about Sanders is that he is trying to build a political movement the importance of which transcends his own aspirations for the presidency. The success of that movement requires crossing traditional political boundaries to find allies in the fight for economic justice even among those who are enemies on other issues.

[bigtree]

121. I'm in favor of leaving the religious extremists out of the equation

...let that university crumble in the dust, as far as I'm concerned.

If the success of his movement depends on legitimizing bigoted institutions, he's going to have to contend with those who can't countenance standing along side of people otherwise pledged to our marginalization and demise. Their religion-based assaults aren't going to subside just because there might be some agreement with his economic appeal.

These aren't just 'political' boundaries; they're moral boundaries. It's sad that those lines are being blurred in defense of this candidate's ambitions.

[Vattel]

128. He's talking to people, trying to change their minds.

Yes, he's doing it at a horrendously immoral educational institution, and arguably that does send the wrong message, but he is not in any way endorsing that institution or its leaders like Jeb did. So I guess that while I am not entirely unsympathetic to your concerns, the over-the-top condemnation of Sanders in your OP is out of place. This is not outrage-worthy IMHO.

[bigtree]

138. and from where I sit

...many of the the defenses of this appearance on this thread are 'out of place' and over-the top.

The appearance itself validates this institution as a legitimate opposition. Not nearly enough outrage, in my opinion, for a Democratic candidate in the midst of a Democratic primary, no less.

[Vattel]

139. I don't know what you mean by

"validates this institution as a legitimate opposition."

[bigtree]

141. well, give it some thought

...perhaps.

[ms liberty]

133. Your cynical, negative view...

Regarding Bernie is really evident in this thread. You assign Bernie motives that are not reasonable to ascribe to Bernie based on his prior behavior, which I am familiar with through many years of observation and yes, admiration. I would say that there is no voter or citizen that Bernie considers too objectionable to try to reach. I would say that Bernie is interested in reaching all voters, and non voters, not just "progressives" or "liberals". He wants everyone to hear what he is saying, and he wants everyone to be involved in making us a better nation, a fairer and more just nation. And that is a good thing, especially since he will be speaking to college age young adults who might have their eyes and hearts opened. Some of those kids will be democrats, too. And they are kids he will be speaking to, not hardened right wing republican operatives.

[Vattel]

142. nicely stated

[HerbChestnut]

112. Disagree with the OP

I think there's value in bringing your message to a group of people who likely will disagree with much that you have to say. It does two things. First, it shows that you aren't exclusionary or so boxed in as to not meet with those who aren't already in your circle. Second, there's a chance that addressing such a crowd will convince some of them to rethink their own views and perhaps even adopt some of yours.

It's important to keep in mind that Bernie will be addressing college students. These are kids who are only 18-22 and have likely been brought up in an atmosphere that encourages the type of thoughts and behavior that bemoans what progressives would consider 'moral rights'. Simply put, they just have a different perspective, and even if Bernie can't convince anyone to turn into a progressive overnight, maybe he can get one or two to reconsider their current path.

The only way bridge a divide between one group of people and another is to go out and talk to them. Pointing and berating from the sidelines only encourages further isolation.

[Motown_Johnny]

115. Can you wait until you hear what he has to say

before going off the deep end? Please?

[LWolf]

118. Some think they should shape their message for a narrow segment of the population.

Some think it's more democratic to speak to everybody.

I don't have to agree with people, or adopt their viewpoints, agendas, and biases, to show up and talk to them, or, in Sander's case, to tell them why he wants to be the nation's president.

The 99% includes a whole bunch of people who are not ideological matches; they are still humans with rights and votes.

[Cosmic Kitten]

119. Nothing redeeming about Hillary's bigoted fundamentalist ties.

Hillary is a member of "The Family",
a bigoted, fundamentalist group
that seeks to inject religion into
politics, block women's reproductive rights,
and is vehemently against the LGBT community.

Hillary is a member of THAT group of Bigots


But Bernie can't address college students


Hypocrisy much?

[bigtree]

124. your response meter is stuck on 'Hillary'

...she's not my presidential choice in this primary to defend.

More to the point, she's not making an appearance at Liberty University. If, she does, she'll get exactly the same response from me.

Sanders can address those students right now, from outside of that institution. We have something called the internet which is remarkably adept at transmitting information to disparate sectors of society and the nation. Giving legitimacy to that institution with an appearance is unnecessary and legitimizing of it's exclusionary doctrine.

[beam me up scottie]

122. This is so sad.

You really think questioning Bernie Sanders dedication to minorities and women is going to help your candidate?

Instead of going after the more conservative opponent you attack the progressive one.

Really tells me all I need to know about you and how much you care about my rights.

"Allies" who attack the guy who always fought for me aren't really allies at all.

They're opportunists.

[bigtree]

125. you really think putting those words in my mouth is a defense against this appearance?

...it's a sad joke that all you seem to be able to do is accuse people questioning your candidate's words and behavior of 'questioning his dedication to civil rights.'

I'm questioning his judgment in making this appearance. I'm questioning the need for legitimizing this bigoted institution.

You need to find another go-to defense against his tone-deafness, other than these flat-out bogus characterizations of the motives of anyone who dares question this politician's supreme wisdom.

You think this objection is about 'your rights?' What kind of delusion is that? No one is obliged to support every jackass move these politicians make. It's absurd on it's face to suggest that - even more ridiculous to assume I'm supposed to stifle my own opinion just to appease your support of this politician in this primary.

[beam me up scottie]

127. Your screed about how Sanders betrayed us is all you:

Apparently, for Sanders, bigots, homophobes, racists, and demagogues' votes matter in his campaign. What an amazing disconnect from the interests of those he purports to represent; what an amazing betrayal of their lives to give heed to such a hurtful and socially threatening institution.

We all know why you're attacking Sanders, O'Malley's numbers are dismal and you think you can siphon off some support.

Nice try.

Really.

Keep it classy, bigtree.

[bigtree]

134. it's like you believe I appeared on this earth just in time for this campaign

...let's make something clear. I wouldn't grace that university with the appearance of my shiny ass, much less afford them legitimacy with a presidential candidate address.

It wouldn't be a surprise to people who know me well, but it would likely make your head spin at the sight of my flight from O'Malley's campaign if he makes a similar appearance.

It's dismaying just how many here appear to place fealty to these politicians above principles and values they claim to care about. I don't think I'm intolerant or without perspective, but there are things that I care more about than supporting politicians, in elections or in office. I've demonstrated that here at DU countless times and taken heat from almost every side of the political spectrum at on time or the other.

I can also be supportive of these same individuals when they make the right choices or advocate for things I believe in. I'm not much of an economic activist, but I'm a stickler for issues of race and justice; a stickler for issues of justice and war. You'll seldom find me equivocating on behalf of politicians on those.

Oh, and I am 'classy,' and I don't need reminding to 'keep it' classy. It's something that just comes naturally with me.

[beam me up scottie]

137. I don't know jack about you and thanks to this op I don't ever want to find out more.

And it looks like I'm not the only one who took issue with your "classy" display.

[bigtree]

140. yeah, I'm shocked to find folks who haven't given an inch to ANY criticism of Sanders

...employing the exact same defenses of this politician in this thread, personal attacks on critics and questioners the specialty.

Shocked.

~big-classy-tree

[Turbineguy]

126. Au contraire, mon cher

If he is elected President he has to be the President of everybody. With all the weird christian paranoia about wars against them he should address them.

[Zorra]

130. That's so very wrong. Bernie is going into the lion's den to convert the heathens. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. hmmm

that was another country I admit, far less partisan...and for the sake of the country we need to go back to that

Then there is this

http://www.governing.com/blogs/politics/gov-democrat-howard-deans-fifty-state-strategy.html

And yes, if any other pol did this, some here, and I could point fingers at, would scream. Do you prefer that we continue to dig heels and become even more partisan? That way lies madness by the way, and does not work in this country.

And yes, I WISH O'Malley and Clinton did go to Liberty as well, as well as Webb and Chafee.

[bigtree]

148. Kennedy received a membership in the university, mistakenly mailed to him

...I think it was a membership. He declined, but offered to speak at the university - not as a candidate for the presidency; not as a Democratic candidate in a primary; but he did, nonetheless speak there.

Good theater, perhaps, but legitimizing, I think, the institution as a valid political opponent. I think they're just a menace to society. So, I disagree with his appearance there, reaching out to bigots, homophobes, racists, etc. for some dubious political benefit. I don't think it was an outright appeal for votes as Sanders is making, but it was a dubious political stunt, in my view.

Kennedy is, sadly, gone. Right now, we have a candidate identifying himself as a Democrat in our Democratic primary declaring he's going to appeal for votes at this bigoted institution. I don't think you can justify that by pointing to Senator Kennedy's appearance apart from any presidential bid, but knowing how these interactions go with you here, I'm sure you'll continue to try.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. The point is that every candidate should be reaching

out to crowds you might not like. This partisanship has led to a dysfunctional government. Republicans have the lion share of it, but this thinking is toxic and dangerous.

It is what it is. This country might end up fighting each other due to this idiocy. Some folks understand why it is dangerous. The candidate you are so critical off, is going to where no democrat has won the election in generations, like oh Louisiana, and other southern places.

He is also coming to Los Angeles, which I guarantee will go to whoever is the democratic nominee, and will have zero say in the nomination. I wish more politicians, in both parties, started doing this. Alas, I am not a partisan. I don't care to be one either. This poison, that way lies madness.

[Fred Sanders]

132. What next, a campaign rally before a mandatory audience at NRA HQ? No Democratic candidate

should go there.

These are not lion's dens, these are nests of vipers.

Viper Cruz kicked off his poisonous campaign on the very same stage!

Let vipers be vipers, they have no minds to change.

[beam me up scottie]

135. Ted Kennedy did.

But hey, let's just throw him under the bus too.

Those Catholics and Jews, what are they thinking trying to reach across the aisle to impressionable young Christian college students?

[Fred Sanders]

145. Reaching back 60 years is the best defence I have seen yet. And that reminds me that these are the "Christians" that

Gandhi spoke of and detested, if memory serves.

[beam me up scottie]

146. He spoke there in 1983. Has it been 60 years already?

You really aren't very good at this are you?

[Fred Sanders]

149. 32 years ago makes your strawmen more erect? Going into the viper's den for what, is the issue.

[beam me up scottie]

158. I think the issue now is your credibility, Fred.

Or what's left of it after that epic fail.

60 years..., no, wait it was 32!!1!

[Bluenorthwest]

136. Show me your OP railing against Donnie 'gays kill children' McClurkin, surrogate to Obama 08

on the 'Faith and Family' tour of rallies pandering to bigots in the Deep South and we can talk. Because Obama did several of those events, and he also took his act to Saddleback Church to pander to Rick Warren's crowd 'Sanctity, one man, one woman, God is in my mix'.

So you know what? DU supported all of that shit, berated LGBT people for daring to object. Called it 'poutrage' and said 'it's just one little song' and told us about the heritage, yes heritage of the faith community, so important he should win them all.

So. You know what? The hypocrisy of this is just galling beyond measure.

[bigtree]

143. show me one post of mine 'berating' anyone for objecting

...or challenging them to produce similar attacks on other politicians before criticizing him.

[Bluenorthwest]

157. Show me your OP treating that candidate to these high drama standards first, I asked first.

Obama's events were far more religious, far more bigoted in nature and persons, and he openly said he did them to reach out to people who might not agree about everything. He hired an ex gay hate preacher to do this.
Show me that you had a reaction like this one to that far more egregious shit. You can't because you didn't stand up and because you wanted to give Obama room to win the election. This is something you do not wish to give to Bernie. There are many possible biases in play in such a contradictory treatment of persons.

[bigtree]

165. what a bullshit standard

...you can't measure up to the 'show me your DU post' test for everything you criticize (neither can anyone else here criticizing any of the other candidates for conduct in this campaign) and I'm not playing your strawman game which is really a deflection from speaking on the merits of this visit.

[sheshe2]

153. Here

On Thu Aug 6, 2015, 10:00 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yet all the racist dog whistles employed by the Clintons in 2008 were o-tay with you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=497330

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Ugh. Totally inappropriate racial slur, with the use of "o-tay" in this post. Poster admits as much downthread. Disgusting.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Aug 6, 2015, 10:19 PM, and the Jury voted 7-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I'm not HRC fan, but the post is just crap.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Definition of o-tay
o-tay

word meaning "ok"

origin: Buckwheat on little Rascals often used the term

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/o-tay

This said to an African American member on DU. I surely wish some members here would check some of their tone and ridicule here at DU. AA members are abused and disrespected here. Why is that? What is your problem!? Try checking your hate. They admit it was ugly, yet did not delete. I am so sorry that was said to you bigtree. Hide it. sheshe2
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[virtualobserver]

154. you might imagine that you know the minds and hearts of the students there

If even a small percentage of the people who hear him rethink some of the things that they have been taught, it will be worthwhile.

Also, if you imagine that all of the students who attend there are true believers, you are kidding yourselves.
Kids in conservative churches often know how to talk the talk, but are not at all convinced of their parent's correctness.

you say....

"There's nothing to be gained in enlisting their ultra-conservative support for some economic platform
while they actively seek to undermine basic liberties, rights, and values which progressives seek to defend and uphold. "

the hell there isn't......if they vote Democrat, it doesn't matter what they believe.....their vote is actually the only thing that matters.

[Autumn]

159. So many times we have been told Obama is the President of all the citizens of

this country not just Democrats. But Bernie is wrong to accept an invite to talk to young college students at a conservative university, young people who can be reached. Obama can have an anti gay bigot give a prayer at his inauguration, Hillary can talk to Wall Street and the banks who crashed the economy at a couple hundred thousand bucks a pop and that's fine? Your hypocrisy is stunning.

[bigtree]

166. there's not one criticism of your candidate

...where the character or motive of those raising issues isn't questioned or trashed.

Bernie can talk to 'students' all he wants (by the way, they are grown men and women, not children who need some special consideration). What isn't necessary is that he affords this institution the benefit of a personal appearance from a Democratic nominee for president; especially not one in the middle of our primary season, before our party picks an nominee.

What's next? The bigoted universities tour? Bob Jones, anyone?

[TM99]

169. Sorry, your entire premise is false and a smear.

It is not a valid criticism.

Therefore, yes, we are going to tear it the fuck apart for the pos attack that it is.

Hypocritical nonsense from a person who is known for making some of the most outrageous bullshit claims about Sanders since he started running.

Dish it out? Then be prepared for push back against the bullshit. Rather simple really.

[Autumn]

175. No one said they were children, they are grown college students.

There is nothing wrong with Bernie speaking there any more than when than Ted Kennedy spoke there. Your selective outrage is showing, as I said Obama can have an anti gay bigot give a prayer at his inauguration, Hillary can talk to Wall Street and the banks who crashed the economy at a couple hundred thousand bucks a pop and that's all well and just fucking fine? What is redeeming or politically valid in those events by Obama and Hillary? Your hypocrisy is stunning and not at all surprising.

[TM99]

177. Don't forget that O'Malley

spoke to a Third Way think tank in 2012.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251425696

He is supposedly not a neo-liberal New Dem so why did he speak there? He is supposedly as progressive as Sanders, so again why did he speak there?

[Autumn]

179. You won't get an answer to that. It's fine for O'Malley, Obama or Hillary to do anything

that they do but Bernie is held to a higher standard, an almost impossible standard and so are his supporters. It's bullshit.

[bigtree]

181. O'MG! He spoke to a think tank!

...not at a bigoted, racist university.

How about listing where he's acted in agreement with that interest group or what he actually said to them that you disagree with.

The 'Third way' boogeyman is something only a small group of DUers takes seriously, and it's a sorry and inadequate defense to a Democratic candidate for president in the middle of a primary for Democratic votes speaking before a group at a fundamentalist institution well-known for it's religion-based bigotry.

[ieoeja]

184. Both Obama and Hillary appeared on the 700 Club in 2008.

I know Hillary's not your candidate, but this is standard politics. O'Malley will almost certainly speak somewhere similar this election.

The only difference between Obama and Hillary in 2008 was how they responded to anti-gay rhetoric by the hosts. Obama said, "you're wrong".

Hillary changed the subject.

[TM99]

191. Your hypocrisy is on proud display.

Enjoy it! Revel in it! Scream to high heavens about Sanders speaking there while your boy does equal shit.

If you do not know the Third Way and their policies and issues by now, and especially how onerous they have been, well, it is willful ignorance is bliss I guess!

[FSogol]

183. I spoke to a Girl Scout troop once about Engineering Careers, did that make me a Girl Scout?

[TM99]

189. Way to miss the point.

If it is A-OK for O'Malley, a supposed progressive, to speak at a New Dem think tank, then it is no problem that Sanders is speaking at Liberty University. Right?

[FSogol]

198. I didn't comment on Sanders, who can do whatever he wants, I commented on

the persistent O'Malley smears.

One ironic point in all this: When Jim Webb wants to appeal to poor whites in the south; horrors, but when Bernie Sanders makes the same appeal, he's a saint.

:beer

[TM99]

222. I have not smeared O'Malley.

I admit to questions about his participation over the years with various aspects of the Third Way from think tank conferences to some joint statements he has signed. He looks good with what I have seen, and after Sanders, he would be my next choice. I simply do not want another New Dem in progressive clothing like we got with Obama.

However, my point was that the other poster was being hypocritical. That is all.

[MrMickeysMom]

160. News flash: There are voters across the United States...

… and they all deserve to hear the issues…

I don't see anyone else making an attempt to reverse the stupidity that abounds Liberty University, do you?

Maybe because something is associated with an ideology, we should never "go there" to open up a few minds… because… why, exactly?

[AnnieBW]

162. I'm betting that he calls them out

For caring more about women's private parts than the poor. You know, like Jesus taught.

[NCTraveler]

170. Even though I know Sanders supporters would....

Last edited Fri Aug 7, 2015, 10:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Trash Hillary or O'Malley for doing the same, I can't go as far as you on this one with respect to it being a really bad reflection on him. Numerous supporters of his have referenced they like his ability to draw Paul supporters. They haven't exactly hid from it. Many comments from them about bringing the right into their fold.

I do find it very funny that the same crowd that is attempting to connect Hillary to Trump over the phone call and wedding are universally playing stupid on this one. They have turned into a political joke.

[ieoeja]

202. I don't recall anybody trashing Hillary or Obama for their 700 Club appearances in 2008?

That was one of the things that mystified me about the LGBT attacks on Obama. When he was on the show, he told them they were just plain "wrong" in the view on LGBT issues. She, faced with the same discussion, changed the subject to avoid talking about those issues.

Hillary simply stayed true to the DLC playbook which specifically recommended triangulating on social issues.

[TheKentuckian]

172. I'd do it and I'd throttle them with my Jesus. Probably not Sanders' exact tact but I bet it comes

pretty close.

You think he is going to join the chorus of Supply Side Jesus, forced ultra sounds, controlling women's bodies, and general bigotry?

On what topics do you expect he will "legitimize" them on?

What areas is he going to soothe them and what money is he taking to do so?

You think he is going to fill their campus with young, liberal minds to poison or something?

I think he is going to challenge them to actually live the values they pretend to espouse and I think that doesn't happen enough which is part of why the churches have become toxic and contrary to the message of Christ.
I'm glad Sanders is going to remind not only these students and their shitty familes but the broader right wing audience that may catch wind of what Christ really was about.

If he goes there to embrace stoning the gays, Jesus riding on dinosaurs, prosperity gospel, forced birth, and the stain of Ham then I'll throw him under the bus and back it up and back ten times, torch the corpse, and piss on the ashes.

[underpants]

176. Calling BS. 1. Va has open primaries 2. The Liberty network spreads far and wide

Bernie gets his message out to a lot of people (via word of mouth - the best way) by doing this.

[fredamae]

178. Do you suggest Bernie

should only cater his message to "certain groups" over Educating All voters as well-those who have been so BS'd over the decades to Allow Social Issue Distraction as the GOP Picks their pockets Too?

I would definitely "go there".
They're sick and tired of the Political BS as much as anyone.....they are Just learning the Real sources of Their pain.
I suggest we help Bernie get his message Out To All folks.

[HooptieWagon]

180. Hogwash. He was invited to speak there, and accepted.

Sen Ted Kennedy had also given a speech there. And it's possible Sen Sanders will sway a few of the attendees. Even if not, Sanders is running to be President of all Americans, not just half of them. Even if he fails to gain new supporters, he might be preventing future enemies.

[AgingAmerican]

201. Some people just want Bernie silenced

Because they know the more people who hear him the more support he gets.

If he can convert those people more power to him.