If You Break It, You Own It - Hillary's vote for the war is the defining issue for me

[virtualobserver]

ISIS is just one more side effect that Hillary owns.

For the thousands that are dead, American, Iraqi or otherwise, their problems are over, but
for the people left behind, the hundreds of thousands with injured bodies and minds, their
war continues, although the body count rises with each suicide.

I know that people say that she has apologized for her mistake. She is not the only one
who enabled Bush and Cheney.

Tell that to the people who have had their arms, legs and worse blown off, or have traumatic
brain injuries. (hundreds of thousands with PTSD)

In jobs that I have held since the invasion of Iraq, I have met many veterans of that war.
They are the best people that I have ever met.....many of them dealing with horrific injuries
to body and soul, often amazingly without complaint. Many of them also feeling guilt that they
are no longer there to support their comrades.

We owe them more than a mere "thank you for your service". We owe them
judicious use of their service and sacrifice.

State Senator Barack Obama and Representative Bernie Sanders could see through the nonsense.

The more important point though.....What I would have wanted her to do then
was LEAD the fight against the war.....that didn't happen

..If I could see through the nonsense that Bush and Cheney were peddling,
why should I choose someone for the office of President who couldn't?

THE ROAD OF GOOD INTENTIONS (2006)
(John Gorka)

There's addition and subtraction, but division overall;
Hope, once in fluid motion, is slowed behind a crawl.
The images are strong and the words are pretty good,
But there's more fiction out of Washington than out of Hollywood.

cho: On the road of good intentions, all gets justified to hell,
The price revealed in stories too short, too sad to tell.

Is this permanent improvement through abbreviated lives,
Or another tragic venture, shocking when the bill arrives?
By the rubble where the house was, there are markers in the dirt.
Children with no need of freedom, they can no longer be hurt.

The soldiers and their families, with life and limb they pay,
While the ones who sent them marching get to dance the night away.
I always come back to the soldiers with their courage and ideals.
I've seen them smoking in the airports. There's no telling how it feels.

[artislife]

1. It is one of the big NOs

I have about her.


There are a lot more.

[daleanime]

2. One of two big issues for me....

the other being money, which is the road block for any action we want taken.

[EndElectoral]

82. Seven Clinton Vulnerabilities

1. Iraq War Vote - voted for it. This is the major one. Perhaps people will be forgiving, but it helped enable the mess that exists to this day. It is the one unforgiveable vote that stops me from even considering her.

2. TPP - writings indicate a pretty strong supporter of it. Unions dramatically against it. Yet, she wants the AFL-CIO endorsement.

3. Keystone XL pipeline - equivocates, refuses to say what she'd do which makes her appear indecisive.

4. Bengazi - left a mess in terms of this phone email and GOP will hammer her on it.

5. Victor Pinchuk scandal - looks very bad in terms of favoritism to Pinchuk with Iran when she was Sec. of State.

6. Bank bailouts and TARP - big difference on their votes on how Sanders and her addressed the market mess. Since banks profited immensely it may be used to attack her as over friendly to the financial sector, especially if her contributions from that area are excessive.

7. Trust- perhaps this may be the biggest one. Do people beyond her most ardent supporters trust her? Polls say no.

[MisterP]

4. IWR shows she either thinks like a neocon so deluded they really think it'll be bloodless

and over in 6 months

or she's so venal she wanted to score conservative brownie points (like her anti-flag burning amendment) at the expense of gallons of American and Iraqi blood, or even just bolster MIC derivatives like Feinstein

it had only 48 "yea" votes without the Dems, and any REAL party would've been able to whip its members on something this essential to its reputation and to the wellbeing of the country

[brooklynite]

6. I trust you said the same things about John Kerry in 2004?

[virtualobserver]

11. I did

That was why I supported Howard Dean

[zeemike]

23. As did many of us.

But we were told that he could not win just like now...and told we needed a war hero to counter Bush photo op landing on a carrier.

We are told lots of shit that is not true.

[artislife]

75. Yes...the convincing points are rather stale...nt

[brooklynite]

5. You're welcome to vote on any issues you want...

...I'll just observe that this was part of her record in 2008, and she got as many votes as Barack Obama, who opposed the IWR.

[virtualobserver]

12. That is why I supported Barack

[artislife]

76. Me, too! Nt

[Vinca]

7. That's the one vote I won't hold against her.

The Congress was fed heaping piles of BS just like the public. What they were told by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of war criminals were lies.

[virtualobserver]

13. I want a president who can smell the BS before it hits the fan

[Sheepshank]

50. that would be Palin...she also acts without blinking at 3 am

a standard that seem quite weird to me.

A president that doesn't get any info, but acts on gut feelings or odors alone. Not my cuppa tea, thanks.

[virtualobserver]

68. It is about Hillary being fooled, not gut feelings or odors

Falling for BS is not MY cup of tea.

[winter is coming]

14. And yet, a goodly number of people were skeptical or outright disbelieving of those lies.

Easily deceived? Indifferent? Complicit? None of those make her an appealing candidate.

[Zorra]

21. Bush did not fool me, ever. If I am more capable of exhibiting intrinsic wise judgment in

matters of war than a candidate for the office of Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces, then that candidate has no business being Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces.

There is no Monday Morning quarterbacking going on here. It was painfully obvious, crystal clear, to tens of millions on the progressive left, worldwide, that Bush was lying.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then they kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and lay waste to the earth with reckless abandon.

The Bloodstained Path
by Dennis Kucinich
The Progressive magazine, November 2002

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.
snip---
We know that each day the Administration receives a daily threat assessment. But Iraq is not an imminent threat to this nation. Forty million Americans suffering from inadequate health care is an imminent threat. The high cost of prescription drugs is an imminent threat. The ravages of unemployment is an imminent threat. The slowdown of the economy is an imminent threat, and so, too, the devastating effects of corporate fraud.

America cannot and should not be the world's policeman. America cannot and should not try to pick the leaders of other nations. Nor should America and the American people be pressed into the service of international oil interests and arms dealers.

We must work to bring Iraq back into the community of nations, not through destruction, but through constructive action worldwide. We can help negotiate a resolution with Iraq that encompasses unfettered inspections, the end of sanctions, and the cessation of the regime change policy.

http://www.progressive.org/node/1424

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1509091

[JDPriestly]

34. Thank you.

[Martin Eden]

74. Yes, it was obvious at the time that Bush was lying

We knew about PNAC and we knew that once given the green light Bush would invade come hell or UN inspectors.

There is no excuse for Hillary, Kerry, Biden, et al. They were either too incompetent to be US senators, or they calculated it was politically advantageous to be hawks, or they were on board with the neocon agenda.

Take your pick, it's a disqualifier where my vote is concerned.

[Zorra]

81. They deliberately let the genie out of the bottle, and it murdered hundreds of thousands

of innocent people, and set in motion the process of destabilization and eternal war for profit.

They are disqualified as too clueless, or malicious, to be President.

(off topic note: Jeb Bush was a signatory of the PNAC manifesto.)

[Martin Eden]

84. Political calculation, hubris, and betrayal

It was still the post 9/11 political environment, and Bush had not yet spent his political capital. Prominent Democrats like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton must have known GW was feeding the public a line of BS, but they stuck their finger in the political winds and calculated they needed to be "tough" on national security. I suspect they also shared the hubris of so many who thought the US had the right and the wherewithal to impose our will through military force. In that regard, they were on board with the neocon agenda.

I would not however go so far to state these Democrats leaders wanted perpetual chaos and war to feed the MIC. But I will say they betrayed the American people whom they were sworn to serve. More than ever we needed strong Democratic leaders who were smart enough to assess the situation and courageous enough to call out lies and liars for what they were. The stakes (in terms of real consequences for human lives and for our country) were about as high as they ever come, and far too many Democrats (nearly half) failed miserably to stand up when we needed them the most.

I was especially disappointed in John Kerry, who rose to prominence as the leader of Vietnam Vets against the War. I refused to support him in the 2004 Democratic primary, just as I refused to support Clinton & Biden in 2008 and Clinton now. I still went to Ohio to GOTV for Kerry in the general, because Bush had to be stopped.

I think those who support Hillary Clinton today either don't understand what went down in 2002-2003, or they are willfully blinding themselves to it. She is still a hawk. I do not trust her in matters of war and peace, or reigning in the power of her Wall Street friends. Add her vagueness on fracking & Keystone, that makes three strikes.

But, as I said, voting for the IWR was a disqualifier by itself.

[A Simple Game]

22. Anyone that listened to the inspectors knew there weren't any weapons of mass destruction.

I knew, millions of people protesting knew, most countries other than Britain and the US knew.

Why didn't Hillary know? Or did she "trust" Bush to do the right thing? There are no good excuses, none.

And a few more things, the US and Britain knew too, but there was a lot of money to be made and what better way than a war? Cheney knew there was no yellow cake, Powell knew there were no aluminum tubes or anthrax, they knew even if the weapons were there there were no delivery systems, they all knew. Hillary knew too, but to run for President you have to look tough don't you? She voted the way she did for reasons of political gain which is unforgivable. How could she put so much faith in the people she called the vast right wing conspiracy just a short while before? If you reward her for such misconduct then don't be surprised if someone else does the same in the future.

[pnwmom]

39. Hillary did not have access to the briefings given to the Armed Services Committee,

and neither did you or anyone else except those members.

Ted Kennedy said that those briefings had convinced him to vote against the IRW, but that he was barred by law from telling anyone else what he had learned there. So he didn't blame Hillary or any other Democrat for trusting Colin Powell -- who at that point in time was viewed as an independent figure, aloof from politics. In fact, at one point even the Dems tried to recruit him to run for President.

[A Simple Game]

49. I didn't need to listen to any more lies to know they were lying. Many people knew and Hillary's not

listening to independent sources is no excuse.

Why would anyone discount the source of information that was there doing inspections and had no reason to lie? Big deal they told a few of them extra special lies and told them it was super secret hush hush. Did Bush also tell them that Sadam tried to kill my Daddy? Wow I'm not impressed.

[pnwmom]

51. Inspections were going on in the winter and spring after the IWR had already been approved.

The plan was supposed to have been that if the inspections revealed IWR's, then Bush could go ahead, with UN approval. Otherwise, he wasn't supposed to. But he ignored that contingency and invaded Iraq even though the inspectors didn't find WMD's. That isn't what Dems who voted for the IWR had approved.

[A Simple Game]

60. You know what would have been nice? Maybe if at the time we had a Senator Obama

someone would have been smart enough to suggest a diplomatic solution. No, it had to be sanctions or war, no other options. And how many children died while Clinton was President because of those sanctions? Maybe that's why most thought Obama was the better choice in '08. Maybe that's why many still think there is a better choice.

[pnwmom]

61. I opposed the war at the time and was unhappy that the IWR was approved. For weeks I'd stood out on a street

corner with a group of anti-war people, waving signs against starting the war. So you don't have convince me about that.

But I, like Ted Kennedy, am not blaming Hillary for making the mistake she made trusting Colin Powell. I wish she hadn't, but I appreciate that she's expressed regret and learned from the mistake.

[EndElectoral]

83. Sanders did not have access to the briefings either but still voted against the resolution.

[JDPriestly]

32. She had been out of the White House only a short time.

She likes to point to her time in the White House as "experience."

Anyone in the White House in 1999 should have known the difference between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. She should have known.

And she did know. The Code Pink women told her the score on Iraq. There is a video of her speaking to them. There is a video (hard to find now) of them speaking back to her and telling her of what they experienced and saw visiting Iraq.

There is a video -- hard evidence of her walking out in a huff after being warned in a very quiet, kind way that a vote for the Iraq War would be a huge mistake.

This is not a matter of making a mistake. This is a matter of refusing to listen to rational, decent advice based on first-hand experience. This is a matter of Hillary's choosing to do the expedient, popular thing and not the wise, difficult but morally correct thing.

Hillary's vote for the Iraq War was proof of her failure to follow the moral high-ground.

Hillary's vote for the Iraq War is one of a number of decisions by her that have led me to the conclusion that she has poor judgment.

We do not need a president who, like the Bushes, has poor judgment.

We need Bernie. He follows the moral high ground on virtually every issue.

[arcane1]

53. She trusted those liars to tell the truth? I doubt it.

They had access to better information than we did. We knew it was all lies but she didn't?

[beam me up scottie]

71. Bernie knew they were lies, I knew they were lies, why couldn't she figure it out?

That's one vote I will never forgive or forget, I will always hold it against her.

[Cheese Sandwich]

8. She was just doing her job. Nobody could have predicted the results.

Just kidding!

[JI7]

9. people blame Bush for that

Which is why it doesn't hurt her

[virtualobserver]

15. It could hurt her this time, depending on who the nominee is.

[Sheepshank]

52. It'll probably be Bush...ain't that a funny circumstance?

and knowing what we know now, he'd do it again....or not....or depends, whatever the last response was lol.

[Dems to Win]

10. Agreed. No interest in a Biden run, for the same reason nt

[virtualobserver]

16. that is the painful truth

[dem in texas]

17. It was for me when she ran against Obama

Back then I could not bring myself to vote for her in the primary because she'd backed the invasion of Iraq. That was then, and this is now. I will vote for her because I think she can win and the most important thing for Democrats is to win the presidential election. I don't think Bernie could be Jeb. It the Dems lose, we will get another Scalia on the Supreme court, shutting down Obamacare, more tax breaks for the rich, it can go on and on. No matter who wins the nomination, you must vote Democrat.

[George II]

18. Specifically, HOW did she actually "vote for war"...the details in the legislation she voted for....

...and please don't repeat the refrain "we all knew bush would lie".

Thanks.

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. We all knew Bush would lie. You could see that coming a mile away.

And Hillary was either too blind or too craven. Take your pick.

Sorry.

[virtualobserver]

25. Friday, October 11, 2002 she voted to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq

H.J.Res.114 - Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002

Bernie Sanders and Lincoln Chafee voted no.

[Persondem]

19. Did you have the same problem with Kerry/Edwards?

Cuz they were 2 for 2 in authorizing force.

Come on Sparky, who did you vote for in '04?

[George II]

26. Both of the, and Clinton, and many others........

........voted to "authorize force" ONLY after the failure of the Government of Iraq failed to comply with a long list of conditions. It turns out that the Government of Iraq actually DID comply with all the conditions, rendering the "authorization to use military force" invalid.

Many like to ignore the specifics of the legislation because it sounds better to claim that all these people "voted for war", which is a blatant lie.

[virtualobserver]

30. only a naive person would have granted Bush that power.....they were hell bent on war

most Democrats in Congress didn't make that mistake.....but Hillary did.....

There was no reason to be threatening them with war in the first place.

There was no justification for giving Iraq ultimatums. They made that shit up.
I could figure that out from my couch. Hillary couldn't do that as a Senator.

[artislife]

77. She was already trying to get her resume in order

For her run at the presidency.


Which is another one of my reasons I cannot support her. The run for senate in NY was just to fulfill her resume requirements. Like electives for a college degree. She chose the state and she knew when she would take her first go at the presidency. So calculated.

If anything, I admire Warren more, because I don't think she will ever run. She is busy doing good work in Congress. It isn't a stepping stone but the main event.

[virtualobserver]

78. I desperately wanted Warren to run

I was thankful that Bernie did. Wouldn't they make a wonderful team?

[artislife]

79. I think he cheched in with Elizabeth before he jumped in.

She isn't going for it. I think he would have been her biggest supporter. I like the idea of someone younger and PoC, a woman would be even better. But mostly, I want someone who truly believes in the same things those two do.

[virtualobserver]

27. Dean in the primary......Kerry and Edwards were wrong.....

and their nuanced criticisms weakened their ability to attack. Hillary's current stances have the same effect on a number of issues.

Obviously they were preferable to the re-election of President Cheney

[1monster]

28. Yeah. I voted for Kucinich in the primaries. Of course I voted for Kerry in the

General... But I was happy to vote Kucinich in the primaries even though he was no longer in the race.

[AllFieldsRequired]

54. Did you get an answer? I am curious. I surely can see NOT voting for Kerry

or Clinton, unless it is the November election and your choice is a Democrat or a Republican.

Then I dont know how anyone could not vote for the Democrat.

[thesquanderer]

24. While it wouldn't stop be from voting for HRC in the general...

...I'm very glad we have the opportunity to vote for someone who I believe was on the right side of these issues, at least in the primary (IWR, Patriot act, etc.)

[Gamecock Lefty]

29. I was not happy . . .

with Hillary's authorization for the Iraq war, but that was what - 12 years ago? She had shown regret over that vote.

Good for King Bernie for being against it from Day 1, but Hillary's still getting my vote.

[virtualobserver]

31. I've met some severely injured people who regret it even more than Hillary

It isn't ancient history to them.

[pnwmom]

33. No one has a perfect record. I wish Bernie would indicate a change of heart on his anti gun-control votes.

Against the Brady bill and for the PLCAA -- the NRA sponsored bill that overturned gun liability laws in 50 states. His votes might have made sense to his largely rural voters, but not for the US as a whole.

Family members of the dead Connecticut school children are being blocked from a lawsuit specifically because of the PLCAA.

When Hillary voted for the IWR conditional upon finding WMD's, she made the mistake of trusting Colin Powell, who lied in his presentation to Congress. And she erred in trusting Bush not to go ahead, despite the lack of WMD's, without UN support. And she long ago expressed regret for her mistakes.

[arcane1]

55. A million dead brown people are no big deal, right? Not compared to a lawsuit by white people.

True colors, shown.

[pnwmom]

57. How many brown people do you think have died in the US because of our lack of adequate gun control?

People die in the US every day from gun violence, and the NRA and gun proponents help to prolong it.

But this isn't a competition. We shouldn't be killing people in wrongful wars or on our own streets or in classrooms.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/schoo-shooting-how-do-u-s-gun-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

America sees far more gun violence than countries in Europe, and Canada, India and Australia, which is perhaps how it gets its bloody reputation among comparatively peaceful nations.

When a person kills another in the United States, though, he or she generally uses a gun: 60 percent of U.S. homicides occur using a firearm, which is the 26th-highest rate in the world. (In other gun-permeated countries, such as Finland (45.3 guns per 100 people), only about 19 percent of homicides involve a firearm.

[arcane1]

58. They die every day in Iraq too n/t

[beam me up scottie]

70. Good thing Bernie Sanders is pro-gun control then, eh pnwmom?

Nice attempt to portray Bernie as an NRA shill and "gun proponent" but it won't work.

The memes that Bernie is a "gun nut" and non-supportive of poc were proven wrong a long time ago.

But kudos for simultaneously beating a dead horse and trying to breathe air into its lungs at the same time.

[jomin41]

35. I support Bernie because of his platform but

HRC's Iraq vote was a major disappointment for me. I'll vote for her if she wins the nom. It would be suicidal not to.

[oasis]

36. You wanted Hillary to "LEAD the fight against the war"?

Hillary has courage.She got up before the senate to question what Bush knew about the events leading up to the 9/11 attacks. It went over like a lead balloon.

In my view, it took plenty of courage for her to stick her neck out in a challenge of the bullshit propaganda the Bush Administration was putting out.

Hillary laid it on the line, and got no backing, against a popular president during a period when Americans had a growing anxiety about war and terrorism.

I have no doubt she struggled with her decision on voting for the IWR.

[virtualobserver]

37. opposing the war in Iraq could have saved so many lives

yet so many Democrats went along.

[oasis]

43. True that. It was no easy decision for any Democrat.

I'm going to edit my previous post about Hillary's senate charge against Bush's pre 9/11 attack knowledge. She did question him, but it was circa 2004. Sorry my memory gets blurry on dates far back when there was a lot going on.

[Maedhros]

38. Then she doubled-down by pushing hard for military strikes against Libya

that were based on trumped-up propaganda, about which she then gloated on national television.

[virtualobserver]

40. and her supposed "regret" about her vote.... 2004 article- Hillary Clinton: No regret on Iraq vote

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary/

[pansypoo53219]

41. proof y'all didn't pay ANY ATTENTION AT ALL. the VOTE for iwaq was POLITICALLY timed by asshat W.

it was set BEFORE THE ELECTION, just so EVERYBODY IN CONGRESS had to show just 'who was more patriotic', NOT AFTER the election. i remember because i was so pissed the NITWIT made the vote POLITICALLY CHARGED to WIN.
and it pissed me off that the MEDIA did not point that out AT all, but since 9/11, Wdiot boy could do no wrong.

and i do believe KERRY VOTED YEA TOO.

[virtualobserver]

42. It required political courage to vote against it.

most Democrats showed that courage

[AllFieldsRequired]

56. I wondered about this statement as I could not recall how many voted for or against in the

Democratic Party and just looked it up.

Party Yeas Nays Not
Voting
Republican 215 6 2
Democratic 82 126 1
Independent 0 1 0
TOTALS 297 133 3

Party Yeas Nays
Republican 48 1
Democratic 29 21
Independent 0 1
TOTALS 77 23

MY QUESTION, of those who voted for the war, Democrats, how many were up for reelection and for those who voted against it were they a ways off from theirs?

[Persondem]

62. Sanders was in a safe seat. It did not take all that much political courage

for him to vote as he did.

More Dem senators voted for it than against it 29-21 and 82 Dem members of the House voted for it. It's not like this was some gutless, oddball thing for Clinton, Kerry, Edwards and Biden to do.

[virtualobserver]

72. The debate on whether it was gutless, or a cautious tactical move, or naiveté....

might be an interesting one, but none of the choices are particularly Presidential.

[A Simple Game]

59. Like Hillary Kerry voted for it. Biden voted for it, oh John Edwards too!

Now what did they have in common? Maybe letting politics dictate whether we go to war and hundreds of thousands die and are maimed not to mention the monetary cost? Can't run for President if you don't look tough enough can you?

What do you think, should we call our armed forces, pawns for politics? Of course the other side were just a bunch of sand monkeys so they don't count, not even the infants, children, and women.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Yep. Playing politics with lives is over the limit. K&R

[FloridaBlues]

45. This is such a non issue with primary voters .

Old rehashed news. She has repeatedly said she regretted that vote .

[virtualobserver]

47. Hillary Clinton: No regret on Iraq vote

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary/

it isn't old news for the severely injured or the veterans with PTSD.

[d_legendary1]

64. Tell that to the Cindy Sheehans of the world

that Hillary regrets her decision. I'm sure it'll help ease the pain of losing their loved ones to a bogus occupation built on lies and profits.

[ericson00]

46. Biden voted for it too; care to tell us what you think?

if your main reason to not vote Clinton is over Iraq but you would vote Biden, you're nothing but a hypocrite.

[virtualobserver]

48. I wouldn't vote for Biden in the primary either

[JoePhilly]

63. That's why Kerry lost the Dem primary in 2004.

And its why Hillary was crushed by Obama in 2008 ... oh wait, that's not what happened.

Obama barely passed her.

Suddenly, this is the most important for Dem primary voters ever!!!!

not.

[d_legendary1]

65. Obama barely passed by?

She blew her own chances by dodging sniper fire while hanging around with rednecks downing Jack Daniels and reading the bible. She's got too much baggage to be an ideal candidate. Don't think the cons are just gonna sit by let that slide:

[JoePhilly]

66. That is probably the dumbest descrption of why Hillary lost to Obama ...

... that I have ever read ... and not just on DU ... anywhere.

The funny thing about your post is that all of the "baggage" she has, amounts to nothing. Lots of RW screaming to be sure, but little else.

In 2008, she lost to Obama because she took the caucus states for granted. That's basically it. He had a better ground game in those states. If not for that, she wins easily ... AND she wins the general election EASILY.

Now ... some of you want to claim that she can't beat the GOP whack jobs that she would have beat in 2008. Did she kill some one since 2008?

Oh wait ... she killed Chris Stevens because he had evidence she killed Vince Foster ... and the evidence was on her email server!!

[d_legendary1]

80. Dumbest? Try reading the articles from the time

Better yet I'll provide them for you since you Clingons have such short memories of what made her a mess:

Here's the sniper fire "misspoke":

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/25/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=hpmostpop

Here's her calling Obama an elitist (going after the redneck vote):

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-13-obama-clinton_N.htm


Here's her world famous southern accent making a comeback from 2008 (from think progress):

http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/06/02/3664725/shouldnt-make-fun-hillary-clintons-southern-accent-according-linguist/

So no these aren't right wing talking points its recorded history. She pandered and she lost. Plain and simple.

In short:



And NO! Nobody out here other than you is claiming that the right wing circus was gonna beat her in 2008 if she if she won the nom. We all remember the "No talk express" and the many sound bites that caribou barbie gave us. A dead dog would've been elected to POTUS since the War Shrub administration killed it for the cons.

[virtualobserver]

69. It only is important if you care about what happened to the people who served...

and who died and those who still suffer.

How it affected elections is trivial by comparison.

This is not a talking point.

[beam me up scottie]

73. ^^^this^^^

Tired of it being dismissed by HC supporters.