Not very long ago, liking Bernie Sanders was liking Apple Pie. But then he had the gall....

[Armstead]

I've experienced many election rounds on DU. It's never a pretty sight in primary season. People line up into camps and bash each other and their candidates. People who might otherwise agree on much go after each other with hammer and tongs.

But I must say, the transformation of Bernie Sanders is breathtaking.

Not very long ago -- months -- everybody in these parts loved ol' Bernie. He was respected, and people of many stripes appreciated his candor and principled consistency to liberal ideals.

Even people who disagreed on everything else could generally agree on that. "Yes I really admire Bernie, and he tells the truth. And he has the right ideas."

For some he was a ray of hope in the otherwise bleak landscape of national politics.

For others he was like your eccentric, grumpy-but-lovable old uncle. A mensch who told the truth and had the right ideas, but was not really to be taken seriously because, you know, "He's just being Bernie. But ya gotta love him and respect him."

But then....He had the gall to actually run for President. Worse yet, he had the gall to mess up a nice clean coronation of the Favored Candidate.

At first, not really to be taken seriously. Another vanity candidate. Worst that can happen is that he makes the primaries a little more spicy. Just good ol Bernie stirring the pot.

But then...Horrors! It turns out he actually resonated with a lot of people. He actually started attracting big crowds. He touched the Third Rail of Truth. He actually became a vehicle that expressed the discontent many people have with the entrenched Corporate Status Quo Oligarchy that has suppressed the liberal side of the Democratic Party for far too long.

So now suddenly, he's gone from Mensch to Pariah among some people. He's insensitive and dismissive of minorities. He's a gun nut. He's a one-trick pony. He hates immigrants, and is just one step short of Donald Trump. His wife is a criminal. He's a right winger. He's a Commie. He has no "real" policies. He's a lousy Senator. He's just a complainer who's never accomplished anything.....etc.

AND HE HATES PUPPIES!

And of course his followers are naive, obnoxious cultists driven solely by dislike of Hillary and/or their own misguided fanaticism. And so they are part of the Cult of Sanderism.

An amazing transformation.

And some will say, "But the real problem is with his supporters. They're awful and obnoxious, and hurt their candidate."

Welllllll.....In some cases that's true. But that's also true of some supporters of Clinton or any impassioned supporter of any candidate. That's the nature of politics and of message boards.

There's also a self-fulfilling cycle. Supporters of Candidate A post something obnoxious about Candidate B and supporters of candidate B respond in similar tone. And it escalates, and devolves into warring camps.

It's always a two-way street. And is also predictable in that both sides say "But you started it."

(I do not excuse myself from this syndrome. I try to be reasonable, and issues oriented. But when my hot button is pushed I can be as obnoxious as anyone.)

I won't conclude by saying let's all KumBayYah. Or let's just focus on issues. It would be great. But I know that's not gonna happen until maybe after the primaries.

But back to the original point, I just find it amazing how quickly for some people a guy like Bernie can go from (as an old Peanuts cartoon described it) from being a Hero to a Goat within a few short weeks.

[Cleita]

1. He's still my hero and frankly goats are sweet lovable creatures. Eom

[Armstead]

4. especially Old Goats

[Cleita]

7. Even better.

[rhett o rick]

89. I resemble that remark. nm

[madokie]

137. Yes

especially old goats

[chknltl]

165. There are old goats and there is Goats For The Old Goats

http://goatsfortheoldgoat.com/
(totally off topic but for those who hadn't heard of this-strongly recommended)

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

107. Hero is right! Bernie brings out the best in all of us. Gotta love him...

Go Bernie Go!

[AtomicKitten]

2. The synchronized attacks on Bernie on race from the Clinton camp are appalling.

But not surprising since they didn't hesitate to go there before albeit from a different angle with Obama.

It started the day he announced his candidacy before 5,000 people in Vermont. Attacking your opponent's strength - and Bernie has a consistently excellent record on fighting for civil rights - is a Rove tactic, and it stinks.

[jeff47]

11. Well, you gotta remember pictures from a 96.4% white city tell you everything.

This picture from a 40% black city doesn't mean anything.

Because reasons.

If pictures were such a wonderful metric, you'd think a "Not good enough, Hillary" article would have promoted just like "Not good enough, Bernie"

[AtomicKitten]

16. They were probably in the kitchen getting ready to serve the group coffee.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0110/Teddys_anger.html

[L0oniX]

31. ~

[RufusTFirefly]

81. Gee, I don't like the "optics" in that photo! n/t

[Dan]

98. Giggle, giggle

Regardless of who gets the nomination, I sincerely doubt that the Black Community/Voters as a whole are going to vote for the GOP candidate.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

122. I was about to say 'That doesn't look like Bernie to me'. Then I looked up a bit. nt

[jfern]

171. Haha, me too

But I guess only Bernie is held to the standard of needing lots of blacks in all his pictures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Just a note, on my way out,

I do not care who does this photo "analysis" I find it disturbing...So now that I stumbled across it.

Now I expect a few people to offer their apologies... no, not really. I just don't. So I would ask you Jeff to be a better person and NOT do it.

[jeff47]

162. Would it help if I was not at all serious about making claims via photos?

Just pointing out the hypocrisy. I think both pictures don't tell you much beyond "some people posed for a photo".

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. I would just refrain from doing it

Have a good one.

[7962]

144. Ha! When will folks learn that type stuff never works here??

Its too easy to find something that refutes bullshit!!

[George II]

77. He marched with MLK Jr. in the '60s

[arcane1]

88. And then never did anything else

[beam me up scottie]

95. Why do you keep saying that like it's a bad thing?

Wtf is wrong with people?

Bernie's record on civil rights is stellar. Hillary's - not so much.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

110. The truth will prevail, no matter how hard Hillary's supporters try to distort Bernie's stellar civil rights record.

[beam me up scottie]

112. They think poc, women and lgbt people are too stupid to know the facts.

The only way to beat them is to keep challenging their lies with the truth.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

130. Precisely, which is why Bernie keeps rising in the polls and Hillary continues to fall.

[Armstead]

96. I'm still convinced your a ringer from the Sanders campaign

You do this satire of an out of control Bernie basher so well.

[Yallow]

181. We're All Ringers For The Sanders Campaign

Sanders. The only thing that stands between the oligarchs and my family's future.....

Go Bernie.

[beam me up scottie]

97. And there were YACHTS* in the background!!1!

It's obvious he's supportive of rich yacht owners and not poor kayakers like me.



*yes someone actually mentioned that

[onyourleft]

180. Seriously?

My gosh I missed that.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

109. I would expect nothing less from Hillary's camp. As she herself would say...BANK on it.

[AlbertCat]

185. The synchronized attacks on Bernie on race from the Clinton camp are appalling.

Yes... I'm being accused of trashing black activists even as we type!

It's a RW meme conjured up when a crowd of NH (or was it VT?) supporters didn't have "enough" blacks in the crowd....ignoring those states demographics.

And the disruption of the forum that was supposed to be about immigration is now used as proof.... even though it was a PR stunt and both Sanders and O'Malley addressed the concerns and then tried to get the forum back on immigration.


The thing that appalls me the most is the "It's Hillary's turn" and "She deserves it" camp of Hillary support. These notions are undemocratic... and akin to the RW's notion that they deserve to govern.

[HerbChestnut]

3. Much of the criticism of Bernie comes from...

Clinton supporters who are probably feeling threatened in some way. The most common defense I've seen against this is that Clinton is ahead in the polls. Big deal...

[BainsBane]

5. I know, especially considering the only polls that matter

are the ones of DUers..

[haikugal]

13. Snark?! Really?! You go girl....not.

[BainsBane]

15. Fact is

Some members have referenced those polls as evidence that Sanders would win the presidency. Believe me, my imagination is not nearly so inventive. I had a basis for the statement.

[haikugal]

18. I guess you felt you just had to set everyone straight...so you did....not.

[HerbChestnut]

25. My point was...

That many Clinton supporters, at least on this forum, point to the fact that she's ahead in the polls and are therefore dismissive of Bernie. Often times folk use poll numbers as a rebuke to a factual argument on the issues, like they somehow have meaning in that context. I'm not trying to deride Clinton or all of her supporters, just the ones that hold their noses up to anything or anyone that doesn't agree with them.

[Cleita]

52. Careful. You are treading on forbidden territory.

btw Welcome to DU.

[BainsBane]

56. Well, considering the insults that have been flung my way

and toward many of us "social justice warriors," I'd say you ought to take a wider range of vision to see all the noses in the air.

[HerbChestnut]

60. No doubt it comes from all angles

But when it comes to discussions about the issues and not personal attacks, that's what I've noticed.

[BainsBane]

67. Here's what I see

I see people who think personal attacks are issues. I see people insulting anyone who refuses to endorse their precise way of looking at the word as "corporatists," "Third Wayers," "tools of Goldman Sachs and the 1 percent," "neoliberals," "neo-cons," "race naggers," and like Lee Atwater. Some of those insults are particularly ironic when they are thrown at those with far less financial means and privilege than those doing the insulting.

I see people furious that anyone dare to exercise their own democratic choices rather than doing what they want.

And when it comes to Clinton, I see character assassination, RW memes, and similar empty insults that people insist are issues. Some even insisted that calling Clinton a "c...t" and a "w...e" was making an important political point.

I also see people who insist that any criticism of Sanders is unacceptable, that people are trying to "smear a good man" by daring to question him, as though he were an infallible deity.

I have lately seen Clinton supporters start to fight back. That appears to be unacceptable, since as inferior life forms our only purpose on this site is to serve as rhetorical punching bags for our betters.

[daybranch]

70. If you are so easy to beat up

maybe you ought to look at what issues your candidate stands for.

[HerbChestnut]

73. Well then,

That does sound pretty horrible. The only thing I can think to say is just keep in mind that this is the internet. People will devolve into primitive vitriol when protected by anonymity. Sometimes it's best just to laugh that stuff off and even feel a little pity for the person who typed it.

[beam me up scottie]

108. Here's what I see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11071699

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026797259

A whole lot of dishonesty coming from certain Hillary supporters and complaints about how they're being persecuted on DU.

Now they're just "fighting back".

Right.

Were they fighting back when they posted these smears?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251461135



Bernie is a good man, Hillary supporters who repeatedly post lies about him - not so much.

[artislife]

62. We are trying to gather a list of what we can and cannot say

however, the ground keeps shifting.

The H supporters tend to change their minds a lot.



Which we wish their candidate would follow suit...to the left.


Trusting that is another issue, which we may or may not discuss. I cannot remember. They try to shake it out of us

[Scootaloo]

59. Hey BainsBaine

Which awful terrible Bernie supporter "forced" you to support Clinton this week?

[beam me up scottie]

101. ROFLMAO!!!

You win teh internets, Scoot!

I think BB would rather forget about that embarrassing incident but oh well...

Here she is in June blaming Bernie supporters for making her support Hillary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026797259

And here she is announcing to the HRC group that she's supporting Hillary back in February:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11071699


Oops.

[SwampG8r]

169. After what I saw in the nadin article thread

That one has no credibility left
I will never take anything posted by her as anything other than flamebait trollery

[beam me up scottie]

170. Yeah that was pretty pathetic.

After calling the op and nadin liars for saying the crowd was racially diverse she doubled down and refused to apologize.

That thread woke a lot of people up.

[Arkana]

12. I have no problem with Bernie Sanders.

What I can't stand are his sanctimonious, holier-than-thou supporters who act like those who don't support him are somehow "less" than they are. I'm really tired of the Internet telling me that I must not be enough of a liberal because I don't plan to vote for him in the primaries.

It's like Gandhi said about Christianity: "I like your Christ--however, I do not like your Christians."

[BainsBane]

17. Yes, true

but over time it has influenced my view of their candidate.

Before Sanders, many adopted that same view toward anyone who didn't express complete contempt for Clinton. When Sanders entered the race, they simply refocused.

[HerbChestnut]

24. A few knuckleheads...

Shouldn't get in the way of supporting Sanders. It's not like he's sending people out onto the internet with orders to be obnoxious. People will be people especially when they're anonymous. If you like Sanders and his positions then that's all that matters.

[BainsBane]

34. Well, it's a phenomenon that has become infamous

Not only on social media but is now being reported in the press. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lorraine-devon-wilke/bernie-bullying-and-other_b_7908216.html

A few knuckleheads don't generate that level of attention.

[HerbChestnut]

37. It also makes for a good news story

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. The internet is what it is and likely will never change. What really matters is what's going on in real life, and right now Bernie is inspiring thousands to show up to his rallies. That's what the focus should really be on.

[BainsBane]

41. Whatever you say

It, however, takes tens of millions to win an election, not thousands.

[R B Garr]

84. Donald Trump is also inspiring thousands and leading in the GOP polls.

Every candidate will attract followers. This is primary season, after all, so the focus is on all the candidates.

[Ino]

40. That's a blog written by a Hillary supporter...

not the press.

[BainsBane]

48. Have you checked this out

#redefineprogressive

https://twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=%23earnthisdamnvoteorlose

There are also articles and OPs by Sanders supports on the subject, already posted on this site, but those people were attacked for supposedly not being real supporters, crypto-Clintonians, etc..

[Ino]

72. No, I just checked out the link you posted...

the one you claimed was "the press" and was proof of an "infamous" phenomena that rises to "that level of attention"... the one that turned out to be just a blog. After that gross misrepresentation, why should I bother to check out anything else you post?

Have you checked out this snotty, vile account written by a Hillary supporter about the people at a Sanders event? It illustrates exactly why I do not like Hillary or her supporters.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn5sjo

The people. Hmm. The HQ is in a poor white neighborhood and that showed. Several very thin, droopy, tired old women were there. Some of them clear misfits--those fellows who look like they're 30ish but still live in their parents' basements. About five of the folks were middle class and ordinary.

I trashed the GD-P and the Hillary Clinton forums, hoping that would eliminate any of those forums' posts from the DU home page, but unfortunately it doesn't. I'm outta here.

[murielm99]

177. Even the comments posted after that article

reflect the single-minded zealotry of many of Bernie's supporters. They miss the point of the article.

All I can do is defend my candidate and continue working for her. Whether his supporters like it or not, Bernie is not perfect. No candidate is perfect. No human being is perfect.

I am not supporting whomever is most "perfect." I am supporting the candidate who is the best qualified and the most likely be be elected. A republican presidency would be a disaster that could maim our democracy for the rest of the twenty-first century.

[AlbertCat]

186. A few knuckleheads don't generate that level of attention.

They do if it discredits Sanders, even a little, and supports the Anointed One. The "She deserves to win" crowd will latch onto anything and are just as obnoxious as obnoxious Sanders supporters. And frankly, the "It's her turn" notion makes for a lot more intense obnoxiousness.

[Arkana]

43. I like Bernie Sanders--and if I could make him President, I would.

But I don't believe he can win a general election. Hell, I have my doubts about Hillary, but I believe she has much more of a chance than he does.

I agree with Bernie on pretty much everything, and I agree with Hillary on about 90% of things. However, I think she can win a general election. If Bernie Sanders can pull an Obama--if he can show me that at 72 years old he has the stamina, the moxie, and the ability to SUCCESSFULLY push back on the titanic mountains of cash that will fall down on his head and somehow win the early primaries--then you can convince me to vote for him.

I want someone who agrees with me to be President, but in this current climate I want someone who can win even more.

[HerbChestnut]

55. Funny thing is...

you can make him president. It starts with publicly supporting him and spreading the word. It ends with voting for him. Worst case scenario is Clinton wins the nomination anyway, which isn't a horrible plan B.

[stevenleser]

146. No, none of us could make him President. 50% of the voting public won't vote for a Socialist.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/poll-voters-socialist-atheist-catholic-119273.html

Bernie is D.O.A. in a general election. The only question is by how much.

[HerbChestnut]

149. That's funny

Because I read about a poll that said a majority would, in fact, vote for a socialist. I can't remember exactly where I saw it, sorry about that, but it was definitely there. Either way, the term "socialist" is becoming less intimidating than it once was, and Bernie just might be the final nail in the coffin for what was once a derogatory term.

[stevenleser]

150. I've produced a link. It was to a gallup poll. If there is a contradicting one, let's see it. nt

[jfern]

172. He polls 59% against Trump

There goes that argument.

[eridani]

114. Sanders is making huge inroads among the 63%. Clinton doesn't stand a chance with them n/t

[restorefreedom]

134. actually it is hillary

who has almost no chance of winning a ge

bernie is drawing support from even some conservative voters. conservatives hate hillary and will male it their mission life to see she is not elected.

[uponit7771]

184. +1, Sanders agrees with 90% of Hillary's also I just don't like the framing that's she's "not"...

... on a number of things

Not progressive, not a liberal, not for middle class...

She may be not as much as some other dem candidates but to frame her as the opposite of those things is horrible

[Armstead]

189. The degree of "not" is what is troubling

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. Actually ...

Before Sanders, many adopted that same view toward anyone who didn't express complete contempt for Clinton President Obama. When Sanders entered the race, they simply refocused.

There ... correctly for historical accuracy.

[BainsBane]

51. You're absolutely right

I stand corrected.

[artislife]

65. We will have to live with our actions

but follow your heart, you must.

[BainsBane]

68. and mind

I think the mind part is overlooked too often.

[artislife]

69. o sweet sweet Bains

my heart flutters with the sorrow and knowing that we have treated you oh so badly.

That your heart is now stone to the idea of Mister Sanders, and we, shallow, good for nothings, had everything to do with it, is truly the lesson for the ages.

Go kind soul, do what you must.

Leave us to wallow in our unworthiness.

[BainsBane]

71. My, and I thought we were getting along

I gave you movie recommendations and everything. And now you come back with that?

[artislife]

75. No I thought we were getting along

and then you answered another one of my replies and I saw how enchanted and naive I was in dealing with you. Mores the pity.

I actually do like to like people, but you lay a gentle trap.


Though, you do have good taste in movies and maybe in 2017 when everything shakes out, we can be jolly together again.

[BainsBane]

143. I don't know which reply you're referring to.

[artislife]

195. Aw sh*t, I got you confused with another poster

I was surprised, too


I am so sorry. I am an ass.

Peace?

[beam me up scottie]

74. She claimed misogynistic Bernie supporters made her change her mind about him.

Then people posted links showing she never supported him and had said so months earlier:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026797259

She's not following her heart, she's peddling bullshit. Like voting for Bernie is voting for "white male rule".

[SusanCalvin]

115. Thanks for noticing poster patterns

So I don't have to. (I'm lousy at it.)

[beam me up scottie]

117. Thanks but I don't deserve the credit. Others noticed her thread back in February and posted a link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11071699

I just keep bookmarks for whenever she gets back up on that high horse so she can look down at all of us lowly Bernie supporters.

[roguevalley]

99. you were never inclined to a candidate if some message board crowd turned you away.

seriously. If that is true then It could be said for Hillary but I am issues based and support Bernie because he has my back. Hillary was a candidate I would have voted for back in the day but not now. My reasons are issues based. I don't care that her backers act like idiots sometimes. Both sides do but basing your opinion on someone else based on the behavior/opinions of someone or someones they don't even know is weird to me.

[SusanCalvin]

116. Yep. nt

[BainsBane]

127. Issues indeed matter

as does competence and believability, but if you think supporters don't have an influence, you're not paying attention, particularly in regard to African American voters. Presidential campaigns reflect on someone's leadership.

It really makes no difference if other people's decisions seem weird to you. My nor anyone else's vote is subject to your approval.

[AlbertCat]

187. particularly in regard to African American voters.

Because African American voters believing in untrue RW memes about Sanders' and civil rights, are gonna vote for Hukabee or Bush if Clinton loses the primary....


Is that what your amazing mind is telling you?


Alrighty then!

[Armstead]

20. As I noted in my OP...That goes both ways

And not just Sanders and Clinton. Go back to Howard Dean, Obama, John Edwards (an oops there)...and many other primaries where the same dynamic was at work.

[HerbChestnut]

22. That's the internet for you.

People's ugly sides like to come out when they're anonymous. Try not to let a few bad apples tarnish you perception of Sanders and his candidacy.

[jeff47]

26. Do you have a problem with Clinton supporters doing the same thing?

Or do you just not notice them?

[Arkana]

38. I do.

And they're wrong.

Any more questions?

[delrem]

104. Then here, I'll actually SAY it for you

Arkana:

I have no problem with Hillary Clinton.

What I can't stand are her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou supporters who act like those who don't support her are somehow "less" than they are. I'm really tired of the Internet telling me that I must not be enough of a liberal because I don't plan to vote for her in the primaries.

It's like Gandhi said about Christianity: "I like your Christ--however, I do not like your Christians."

__________________

Next time try to include that in your Bernie bashing, OK?
eta: "bashing" because your post is 100% vitriol, 0% about any policy that would distinguish a Dem.

[Skittles]

148. I, TOO, THINK THEY ALL SUCK

SWOONERS SUCK NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE SWOONING FOR

[Armstead]

155. Aw shit. And I thought you liked me

[Skittles]

156. er....I do

[Armstead]

157. Whew. What a relief.

Even though I'm a bernie swooner at the moment

[Skittles]

158. you want I should kick your Bernie-swooning ass, Armstead?

the people that bother me are those who insist it's their candidate or no one - that NO they would not vote for (insert another Dem here) if they should win the primary - THEY SUCK

[Armstead]

159. Not tonight. I have a headache

[Juicy_Bellows]

32. His supporters aren't running for office.

Hillary has some pretty vibrant supporters herself.

They too, aren't running for office.

[Arkana]

45. You really don't see how being a condescending snob

to people might put them off the guy you're trying to convince them to vote for?

Hillary supporters aren't free of this, but you Bernie guys are FAR from faultless on that front.

[Juicy_Bellows]

50. Fair enough - if we had to pick which side is more obnoxious we're probably going

to disagree. All I can do on this site is to respond to people with civility and hope others do the same. Cheers!

[Armstead]

53. The nature of communications here varies

Some posts or exchanges here are efforts to communicate and perhaps convince -- or at least understand those who disagree.

Some are putting up food for thought. Maybe pointed, but substance oriented.

Other posts are deliberately provocative and intended to push buttons and annoy.

All types come from all supporters of all candidates (or most candidates).

[rhett o rick]

90. I suggest you step back and look at this. How silly is it to try to argue who has

the worse fans? "No you do," "no you do." And none of these petty arguments is going to "put-off" anyone that has at least half a brain.

[awoke_in_2003]

113. And anyone who lets internet supporters

sway their decision should have their heads checked. There are obnoxious Clinton supporters. There are obnoxious Sanders supporters. I am not backing Sanders because of supporters, but because I am tired of democrats who, economically, act like republicans.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

124. I gotta say, I don't actually expect to convince ANYONE on DU to change their voting choices.

Basically, everyone here is a partisan of one stripe or another. The only time I expect any major changes are when candidates drop out of the race, at which point their people will probably switch over to one or another remaining candidates. Anything done on here is basically venting or fundraising.

[Maedhros]

35. I suspect you are projecting a little bit...[n/t]

[passiveporcupine]

58. All discussions should be about the topic, not the OP

But as you are doing here, it keeps devolving into attacks against the other supporters, rather than actually discuss the topic and candidate.

This is all part of the quid pro quo. The only one who can stop it is you (each of us).

[daybranch]

76. Since you brought it up

I like Hillary's Christ, it is her willingness to serve the rich over the poor that makes me not like her.

Middle class, my a-s! We are the needy class fighting the greedy class. Pretty simple. Millenials get it and Progressives get it, that is why Hillary is poo- pooed everytime she claims she is a progressive.

[Bobbie Jo]

82. Thank you.

Well said.

It's like Gandhi said about Christianity: "I like your Christ--however, I do not like your Christians."

[rhett o rick]

91. If you like Sanders but don't like his followers, so what? Vote for Sanders.

What this looks like to me is a classic case of "I am going to trash Sanders supporters because they trash Clinton supporters. It's ok if I do it."

[SusanCalvin]

119. If the majority of his followers were jerks, I would at least stop and think.

Same for Hillary's. But I don't think that's so in either case. So I just try to ignore the jerks.

[rhett o rick]

120. Most of the time it's a noisey few that are the jerks and should be ignored. Silly to claim

that one candidate's jerks are worse than another. It's just another excuse to actually discuss issues.

[stevenleser]

151. The Gandhi quote is so spot on here. And as Bainsbane indicated, it has had an affect on how I see

Bernie.

It's also become highly desire-able for me to see that people who behave the way those folks are behaving do not get what they want.

[Armstead]

154. Gee I thought it was party over everything

So if by some fluke Sanders got the nomination, you would not support him just to spite his supporters?

And I am still trying to figure out why we're so "specially" obnoxious? We pontificate. You pontificate. We get pissed off and say obnoxious things. You get pissed off and say obnoxious things.

I'm trying to figure out why candidates and supporters who are slightly to the left of center are subject to "special" rules when it comes to behavior.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

111. lol, and Hillary's supporters have every reason to feel threatened, Bernie's gaining on her. Remember Hillary: objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear.

[whatchamacallit]

6. I think you nailed it

Fear is what transformed his status from hero to zero overnight. The ugliness is proportional to his success.

[BainsBane]

19. That would mean there should be 25 percent less ugliness this week

than last given his recent drop in the polls. I haven't observed that correlation myself.

[whatchamacallit]

21. Lol, ok so why y'all so ugly then?

Just in the nature of HRC supporters?

[BainsBane]

39. You mean in daring to question their betters?

I guess we just weren't raised with a proper respect for hierarchy. Some of us, well, me anyway, still think all human beings are equal and deserve the same rights to question and criticize political candidates as any other.

[Juicy_Bellows]

8. So very well stated.

You have to toe the line so to speak or you'll get a bag of shit on your doorstep faster than the mean gym teacher from middle school. I find their love for Hillary....disturbing. (read that in a Vader voice for maximum effect).

It's one thing to be excited by a candidate - it's entirely another to never admit any faults or flaws, turn blind eyes to real factual issues and just go whole hog into team HRC.

I passively ignore - keeps me sane. Sort of.

[jeff47]

9. IT'S HER TURN!!!! (nt)

[artislife]

63. She's earned it!!!

[Armstead]

94. Oh God....Tracy Fleck. I'd forgotten about her

[SusanCalvin]

121. I love that movie! nt

[haikugal]

10. It is surprising isn't it?!

I also try to stay calm and reasonable but I'm tested almost every day by some of the things I see posted here at DU. We continue to bleed good liberals from this site and it slowly becomes irrelevant.

However, we can do this! Bernie is the better candidate for soooo many reasons. No more corporate thirdway democrats...I refuse. I'm a proud liberal and not afraid to stand up and be counted.

Thanks for this OP Armstead! Very nicely written and very topical.

[libdem4life]

36. Ditto that ...and I just ignore them.

Life is too darn short. Bernie...Yeah Hillary. ..Nay. That covers it for me.

[SamKnause]

14. Nicely done.

Bernie gives me hope.

He is honest.

Honesty is rare.

I respect and admire him.

He understands the problems.

He has sensible solutions to those problems.

He explains things in simple terms.

He doesn't talk down to people.

He has earned my respect and admiration.

I'm excited.

I have a sticker on the way !!!

[Plucketeer]

93. Bernie Sanders

NOT Pie-in-the-Sky!

[hootinholler]

23. Why are you so down on pie?!?

I like Pie! Especially warm apple with some extra sharp Vermont cheddar.

Now that's a dessert!

[Armstead]

30. I like pie. I like Bernie. As for cheese I've made trips up to VT to get me some of that

[zeemike]

106. No, no...a scoop of Ben and Jerry's Cherie Garcia on it.

Now that is a dessert...cheese makes it a meal.

[cantbeserious]

27. Always Predictable When The Established PTB Have To Acknowledge Failure

eom

[saidsimplesimon]

28. Refreshing to read comments of those who "march to their own drummer"

I agree, when anyone hits my hot buttons my blood pressure soars, and my tolerance tanks.

[DinahMoeHum]

29. Oh sheesh, pace yourself people. . .

. . .we've got over a year to go on all this.

And never forget who the real enemy is.

[SusanCalvin]

123. Yep.

Real enemy = out-of-control corporations. The R's are just their minions. Some D's think they can turn them to their own uses, but that's a deal with the devil. Government should control corporations, not the other way around.

[DanTex]

33. Well, it's natural that people get additional scrutiny when they run for president.

Also, almost everyone on DU likes Bernie, including most Hillary supporters. The biggest problem with Bernie is electability, which has nothing to do with liking him or his policies.

If you go by number of OPs or recs or DU polls, Bernie is clearly the most popular candidate here. Maybe you were expecting 100% of DUers to jump on the Bernie bandwagon, I don't know.

[Armstead]

42. No I wasn't expecting everyone to support him

And obviously scrutiny is part of the process. As is criticism.

But the comments posted regularly contradict your statement that "everyone likes Bernie." The tone and content of much of it is not "I like Bernie but I disagree with him because...." The crap that is thrown at him -- most of it totally off base -- is just so baffling and insulting that it is a marked contrast to before he ran.

You do have a legitimate question about "electibility." I disagree with you, but at least it is a valid concern.

[DanTex]

64. Yes, some people are critical of Bernie, and maybe a few here actually dislike him.

But this is a very small fraction of DUers. Again, judge the number of anti-Hillary OPs and the number of recs versus OPs critical of Bernie. And I haven't heard anyone even come close to suggesting that they would sit out the general election if Bernie becomes the nominee. In terms of vitriol, the anti-Hillary people have it by a mile.

Also, through the scrutiny he's received, some things have come to light that maybe people weren't aware of before. I was aware that Bernie was vaguely pro-gun, but I didn't know that he actually voted against the Brady Bill and for the legal immunity bill. I knew about the immunity bill long before this, so my opinion on it was not formed by any kind of loyalty to Hillary, and I was disappointed not just to learn about his vote, but even more to see so many DUers defend it.

The BLM thing, that actually was a case where his supporters were more of a problem than him. Yeah, he didn't handle the protests very well, but the reason #berniesoblack started trending was because Bernie supporters were lecturing black people on twitter.

And so on.

My sense is that most Hillary supporters here either like Bernie a lot but Hillary more, or else they like Bernie a lot but don't think he can win. And I don't see much off-base stuff thrown at him. Sure there's some, but again nothing like what Hillary gets.

[daybranch]

83. Hillary supporters only say they like Bernie

Bernie disturbs their view of the world and forces them into mental conflicts. Heaven help us, if we Bernie people ask the lulled masses so enthralled with electing our first female President tom actually consider who would be best for the country, we see the same cognitive dissonance we criticize republicans for. Hillary people want to say elect any democrat, let Wall Street and the bankers pick your candidate, it does not matter. Thinking people know better. We do not like the system of institutionalized poverty, racism, and oligarchy. We know who supports that system and we know that support comes from the greedy class whose political operatives use every opportunity to divide us for their continued control of our government and our economy.
We see Hillary people as lazy, not willing to think, trying to avoid any commitment, and assuming that because they vote democrat we owe them an obligation to not rock their boat. So there I said it. Can't we all just get along- sarcasm, just Hillary supporters' attempt to stifle discussion.

[DanTex]

87. Hmm, so you can read their minds?

How about listening to people and letting them decide what they believe rather than projecting your twisted theories onto them.

I'm a Hillary supporter, and I like Bernie. And I am not conflicted about it at all.

[pnwmom]

174. Do you think smug, insulting arguments like this will lure Hillary supporters, or even those on the fence,

to your side?

Think again.

[beam me up scottie]

44. They began swift boating him on DU months ago.

And now they just keep repeating the same old memes: gun nut, has rape fantasies, never did anything in the senate, never fought for civil rights for women or minorities and the now infamous Not Good Enough Bernie thread that associated Bernie with racist cops and slavery.

I can handle swift boating when Republicans do it but when so called progressives lie about a good candidate because he's running against Hillary it's even more vile and despicable.

I hope they can live with themselves after the primary is over, I know if I did the same thing to Hillary or O'Malley I would be too ashamed to show my face around here.

[passiveporcupine]

46. Best comments I've seen in a long time

On what is happeing here to Bernie.



Sad, but true, and fear is driving it.

[Uncle Joe]

54. He hates puppies! Even if they have an epic puppy sneeze?

Last edited Sat Aug 1, 2015, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for the thread, Armstead.

[Armstead]

126. Espccially if the have puppy sneeze

Kittens too. He hates kittens.

[DFW]

57. I don't see how Sanders has ever been hero or goat. Papantonio got it right.

He has never changed. Only perception of him (by both admirers and detractors) has changed.

The whole reason anyone has a hard time knocking him is because he has never wavered in his basic positions.

[Armstead]

61. I didn't say HE changed....Just the perceptions and/or attitudes expressed to him

[rocktivity]

66. Compared to who?

Obama?


rocktivity

[brooklynite]

78. I agree with every policy aspiration Sanders has...

...I just don't believe he'll have the resources or appeal in a national election.

[HerbChestnut]

86. As his name recognition increases...

His favorability increases. That's been the trend. With favorability comes appeal, and with appeal comes votes. He will certainly be outspent, but with the Koch brothers willing to drop $1 Billion into the race the same could be said about any democratic nominee. The fact that he's come this far with only grassroots support should be a testament on his ability to run an effective, frugal campaign.

[SusanCalvin]

125. That's fine.

For now, I humbly suggest that the appropriate thing is to wait and see.

[redruddyred]

133. is this why you support hillary?

I like to think he's the candidate we need, but not necessarily deserve. it should be an interesting next few months.

[gregcrawford]

79. As your post obliquely suggests...

... the ugliest thing Bernie's success has exposed is the unbridled malice and deceit lurking just below the surface of his supposedly "liberal" critics, and how easily they will resort to lies and innuendo when they cannot find anything substantive with which to condemn him.

I expect such disgusting behavior from conservatives; it defines them. It is disappointing, to say the least, when those of whom we expect higher standards of conduct choose to wallow in the same fetid swamp.

[SoapBox]

80. ...mess up a nice clean coronation.

Go Bernie!

Go Team Bernie!

[svpadgham]

85. A goat or THE GOAT?

[Armstead]

92. The Goat du Jour

[LibDemAlways]

100. Saw a great Bernie bumper sticker today.

Vote for Bernie.
You know you want to!

I have a Fb "friend" (I've never actually met) who agrees 100% with Bernie on just about every issue but who is supporting Hillary because he is convinced Bernie can't win. I think that's ridiculous. People should vote for the candidate whose positions on the issues are most in line with their own. Voting for someone just because they are somehow the annointed one reminds me of voting for cheerleaders in high school. The winners were already pre-ordained and the election was merely a formality. Adults should know better. I'm voting my conscience, and for now that means a vote for Bernie.

[beam me up scottie]

103. At least your friend is honest about why he supports Hillary.

Some make up lies about Bernie, others complain about his supporters and claim they're the reason they can't vote for him.

Adults should know better. I'm voting my conscience, and for now that means a vote for Bernie.

[JoePhilly]

102. Wait ... so you are saying Bernie has been turned into a Goat on DU?

ok.

I guess that's better than "whore" or "POSUCS".

Every Hillary supporter I've seen on DU says they will vote for Bernie HAPPILY if he wins the primary.

And then we have many self proclaimed Bernie supporters saying they would NEVER vote for Hillary in the General Election if she wins the primary.

Help me ... who is the goat here?

[VanillaRhapsody]

105. Got a question for those taking this stance noted in this OP

What is the one very obvious major malfunction going on in the GOP primary right now?


(Here is a hint...there are 17 of them)....


Now what are the major problems a party faces when that is occurring?


Then explain to me again how it is such a "coronation" to have the majority of members of a party AGREEING to back and support one candidate....


(but then some folks are just curmudgeons and just can't get behind people agreeing to agree and shit).

[Armstead]

128. I don't there was a "big agreement"

More like the usual molders of Beltway/Media/Corporate conventional wisdom deciding on her as the member of the club they want. It's not a widespread "big agreement" that "of course Hillary is the nominee. Who else is there?" That ignores the actual diversity of opinion that exists.

It's not real democratic if a candidate has been redetermined by the molders of opinion before the campaign even started.

Remember 2008? She was supposed to be anointed then....But then this funny little series of primaries happened.

Hey, she's welcome to run again. I got no problem with that. But it's not like the WH is a heredity throne selected by divine right. Oh wait. Bush v Clinton II. Maybe it is monarchy.

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. Well up until recently she was up in the high 75 or better approval ratings

among Democrats...THAT kind of agreement.

(how often do you think THAT happens?)

[Armstead]

132. She's popular among many Democrats

Plus, superficially, she had a good run of Secretary of State (and was lucky to get out before the real shit started hitting the fan.)

I got no problem with that.

I got a problem with what she represents -- a problem that she is a part of, but is much bigger than her as an individual.

And I got a problem that years before this year;s cycle was unerway, the same media/beltway crowd was touting her as the logical succssor to Obama, and the nomination would be hrs for the asking in 2016.

[VanillaRhapsody]

136. Not just many...MOST!

[Armstead]

139. I like her too. Just not as President

And it's not personal. It's who she hangs out with, and the worldview they share.

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. and I would like a Democrat for President....

They hang out with LOTS of people....they run a major International Philanthropic Organization....how else do YOU think they are going to get those major projects that the Clinton Foundation carries out paid for?

How they hell they can be associated with what THAT organization does and STILL be accused of not caring about the little guy is beyond my comprehension.....yeah they really do not give a shit huh?

Perhaps you should read up on the initiatives the Clinton Foundation funds!

[Armstead]

188. OH they care and do a lot of good things

Many corporate executives are wonderful people personally and support wonderful causes.

Andrew Carnegie did a lot of great stuff too back in the Gilded Age. As did the other robber barons.

But there;s a disconnect between philanthropy and the way the oligarchs make their money, and the systems they set up to do so. That's the problem. Just as in the Gilded Age.

It's one thing to support charity. It's another to make charity less necessary, by developing systems that actually allow people to earn from their work, and not get fleeced by investment scams, or have their jobs outsourced... or having the safety net cut out from under them so the billionaires don;t have to pay as much in taxes.

And before you bring up any familiar cliches like "unicorns" or "socialism" or "reality" I'll simply say that this is not ablout building some mythical ideal -- it's about not doing shit that makes things systemically worse, and trying to put some balance bavk into the system between the common good and private enterprise.

[busterbrown]

182. Oh, I’m so tired of the Sander”s Crowd on DU.

And I Love Bernie... Just don’t think he has the slightest chance to win general election.

The Stupidity of our Electorate..

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/speak-english-we-dont-want-the-nazis-back-woman-goes-nuts-after-hearing-spanish-at-ihop/

[VanillaRhapsody]

183. It aint about lov'n Bernie....

[Thespian2]

118. This old goat

is partial to other old goats...especially Bernie...

[NanceGreggs]

131. The primaries are about electing our nominee ...

... to run for POTUS.

As such, this isn't about "likes" a la FaceBook, or who thinks Bernie is as likeable as apple pie. It's about the best man or woman to represent our Party in the general election, and who can go on to win the White House.

Many people like Bernie as a senator from Vermont, and as a long-time a spokesman for progressive ideals. And he is still respected and admired by a vast number of people.

However, many of us don't see him as presidential material. It's as simple as that. His political experience is limited and, while his ideals may be lofty, his plans to bring his ideas to fruition are - you'll pardon the phrase - more apple-pie-in-the-sky than grounded in reality.

While I might see an individual politician as the perfect mayor, perfect congressman, perfect governor, that does not mean I see them as the perfect president. In fact, I might see them as ideal in one position, but as a total disaster in another.

The notion that Bernie is now disliked because he "had the gall to run for president" is ludicrous - just as ludicrous as saying that HRC was expecting "a coronation".

Once Bernie threw his hat in the ring, he should expect that he will be scrutinized very differently than he was when running for the mayor of Burlington, or a senator from his state. There are different skills required for each position, and he is being judged by a different criteria as a result thereof. This is the Big Time - and the "Everybody Loves Bernie" show is being critiqued by a much wider audience - an audience that may find him wanting in many areas of consequence.

As you yourself have said, Bernie is "resonating" with a lot of people. And why wouldn't he? He says the things that a lot of people agree with. But that resonance alone does not qualify him to handle the responsibilities of the Oval Office. Agreeing with what Bernie has to say does not equal a belief that he can actually DO what he says should be done. "Liking Bernie" does not necessarily translate into thinking he would make a good president.

Unfortunately, here on DU, many Bernie supporters have been dismissive of that reality. They seem to believe that those who respect and admire BS, and agree with many of the things he has to say, are somehow duty-bound to support his bid for the nomination as our candidate. They don't want to accept the fact that being "likeable" - or even widely respected - is not, in and of itself, enough to qualify him for the most important position in the nation, and the world-at-large.

Despite the horse-race mentality of the MSM touting the idea that Bernie-v-Hillary is a "fight for the soul of the Democratic Party", and a showdown between "the status quo and those wanting change", what this primary is about is what it's always been about: a party determining who is better qualified to be POTUS. And being as likeable as apple pie has little bearing on that determination.

[KoKo]

135. You should have stopped here: "The primaries are about electing our nominee ..."

It would seem that some feel there should only be ONE NOMINEE before the PRIMARIES.

Just Saying, Nance. You caught yourself up there....

[NanceGreggs]

160. I "caught myself up" where?

Did I say there should "only be ONE NOMINEE before the PRIMARIES"?

No, I didn't.

[YOHABLO]

138. Just what defines ''presidential material''?

[Armstead]

145. No it IS a fight for the soul of the party...and the country. And it transcends both of the people

I think in many ways Hillary's great, just as you say in many ways you think Sanders is great. I like her, and I salute the many good things she has accomplished.

I would dispute your statement that Sanders has no political experience. He has a lot of it. And he has accomplished a lot, even if it is not legislation that has received the seal of approval from the Power Elites.

Ultimately, either of them would be able to do the job, and be much preferable to a Republican. That kind of disagreement is just the basis of politics on one level -- Whose the best person for the job, Hillary or Bernie or (fill in the blank)?

But, while the world will continue to spin regardless of what happens in this election, it is not only about the personalities. This DOES reflect a much deeper struggle for the soul of the Democratic Party -- and the nation. It was going on long before this election cycle, and it will continue afterwards.

My problem with Hillary is much deeper than whether I think she would be capable of doing the job.

It is what she represents. And whom she would bring into the corridors of power with her.

What she represents -- the political/economic culture she moves in and agrees with -- is helping to ruin America, and the world.

That is the oligarchy. I know that's a loaded word. But its a reality.

It's a world where the people who are supposed to be regulating business move into high-paid positions as lobbyists or members of those industries when they leave government. It's a world in which the same people and ideas get recycled at the top, and any attempts at meaningful reform are slapped down. And that affects everyone in all aspects of life.

It is not simply a matter of the fact that there have always been people on different economic levels. That's life. But the degree has reached obscene proportions. The differences in wealth and power between the small number of of elites at the top and everyone else has reached levels that are OBSCENE and unsustainable. And cities and tons across the country have been decimated.

It's a world where she and her husband can make hundreds of thousands of dollars (millions even) for giving a speech to a monopolistic corporation or amoral Wall St. bank. Meanwhile, many people work their asses off at thankless jobs and can;t afford to make ends meet.

It's a world where it seems to make sense to allow a handful of huge banking houses to swallow up smaller banks to the point where these monsters are able to pull huge con jobs and tank the economy -- and then we bail them out and allow them to keep their ill-gotten gains and become even more rich and powerful.

It;s a world where human values no longer apply. Where a CEO of the company that makes Oreo cookies can close a factory in Chicago, throw 600 people onto the street, move the plant to Mexico -- and the CEO is immediately given a multimillion a year salary increase.

Many of these are perfectly nice people. many of them say the right things about the "social responsibility of corporations." But that's just the proverbial lipstick on a pig. Their actions are decimating the middle class, destroying opportunity to get ahead and throwing the poor into a morass of despair.

They are creating a Corporate State that is evermore unaccountable to the majority of the population.

There are supposed to be two parties. We expect the GOP to align themselves with the Big Money crowd, and to let them get away with as much as they can. But the Democratic Party is supposed to be the counterweight to that. But it can't be a counterweight when the politicians, their advisers, their cronies are part of the same elite corporate class and mindset.

We already had one Gilded Age in this country. It took a fundamental movement pushing for change -- and politicians who supported that -- to get over the disaster it created and to build a middle class. The Democratic Party had a key role in that rebuilding. But over the last 30 years or so, it lost that. ceded the field to the Republicans (even when Democrats were technically in power) and its leaders joined the Gilded Age party.

Unless we are to become a glorified Third World Banana Republic, we have to change. And we're not going to change by bringing back the same people who created the problem in the first place to "fix" it.

THAT's why I (and many others) get so worked up about this shit.

[NanceGreggs]

161. If you want to believe ...

... that the "soul of the Party and the country" is at stake here, so be it.

But if you think the average voter is thinking in those terms, you are deluding yourself.

[Armstead]

163. And THAT is the problem. And smart people like you should not be buying into it

Do YOU believe we have an unacceptable disparity of distribution of wealth, or do you think its okay that one family (the Waltons) is worth in the nieghborhood of $150 BILLION dollars (a few siblings), while too many of their workers have to go on food stamps?

Do YOU believe that a handful of companies should own almost all of the radio and TV systems and cable systems and Internet providers in the country? Do you believe that is preferable to the diversity of ownership that used to exist before deregulation.

Do YOU believe that a handful of frighteningly immense banks should have the power to tank the economy with their reckless greed, and then get off scott free?

I could go on....

The powerful have become too powerful because we allow it. The wealthy steal our money because we allow them too.

The propaganda machine does a very good job at convincing people to accept the unacceptable, and vote based on whether they want to have a beer (or martini) with a particular individual.

People like yourself who should be paying attention should at least acknowldge the problems that exist and looking at the role that candidates have had in enabling it or trying to fight it.

Up to you I guess.

[NanceGreggs]

190. Yes, you could go on ...

... and I'm sure you will - but you needn't do so on my account.

The glaring mistake here is that you are assuming that anyone who doesn't support BS is either for all of those things, or isn't aware of them.

Your next mistake is in assuming that all of the things you've listed would be changed if BS were elected. They wouldn't be.

Both HRC and BS, as president, would be in a position to move the nation further away from those things, and further towards what we, as Democrats, want. But neither of them, despite the best intentions in the world, are going to be in a position to eliminate them completely - which is something I see Bernie supporters discussing as though he can, and will.

But this is NOT a "fight for the soul of the Party", or anything like it. BS supporters hold themselves out as being "a movement", "a popular uprising", a "revolution". What you really are is a bunch of people supporting a candidate, while HRC supporters are a bunch of people supporting a different candidate. It's as simple as that.

When asked how BS is going to actually DO what he says he wants done, the response is usually some vague remark about how "he's the real deal", and he's got "the people on his side". There is nothing concrete about HOW he intends to do anything. When it's pointed out that as POTUS, Bernie would have to deal with the obstructionist GOP, again the answer is a vague reference to "he'll just DO it", "he'll use the bully pulpit", etc. Nice words - that don't accomplish anything.

If you want to believe - and you obviously do - that BS is going to be swept into office by FaceBook 'likes' and house parties, that's your prerogative. If you want to believe that he will magically change political realities with a wave of his hand, that's up to you. If you want to believe that the GOP is "terrified" of Bernie Sanders and would cooperate with him out of their abject "fear", please go right ahead.

The 2016 presidential election will be taking place in the real world, not on DU. Millions of people will be voting who never even heard of the TPP or Keystone, and couldn't care less how many people showed up for a Hillary event or a Bernie event. They will be voting for the person they feel best suited to the job - and as the poll numbers show over and over, BS just doesn't have anywhere near the people behind him that Hillary has.

[Armstead]

191. You cluld have written that 5, 10,15, 20 years ago

Always the same old reasons and the same old justifications.

Despite the image you seem to have that I (and others like me) are radical. far-left firebrands who have no clue of how the "real" world works, I'm what would have been considered a moderate before 1980 or so.

I just want checks and balances in the system again, and social safety net, and ealthcare like the rest of the world. And an economy that -- even with the inevitable difference of rich and poor and middle -- is less concentrated at the top, and in which corporations are expected to behave with a modicum of decency. And in which competition exists among businesses.

And -- maybe this is deluded -- I also think that;s a goal that a majority of the population shares.

How about let's try that in an election -- and subsequent governing -- for a change? And (whether Bernie or not) have a candidate and a Democratic Party that is actually attune to that and is able to bring in some fresh air.

[NanceGreggs]

192. Here's the problem ...

The vast majority of Democrats want the same things. The problem is that the BS supporters are insistent that Hillary doesn't want the same things we do, and Bernie does. THAT is the unreality that is being promoted here day in and day out.

Next November, the nation will be voting to give one candidate the most important "job" in the country. I'm supporting the person who has the best "resume" in terms of qualifications - and for me, that person is Hillary.

Sad to say, the BS supporters on DU who want to deal in reality are few and far between. For the most part, they want to talk about how bad Hillary is, instead of discussing what BS has to offer.

I have tried to take people here seriously - I truly have. But when DU has several threads with hundreds of replies about Hillary's campaign logo and the "symbolism" behind it, it becomes apparent that one is not dealing with people who deserve being taken seriously on any level.

[Armstead]

193. Elections are ablout comparing and contrasting, as you have noted

And, I'll be honest with you, Hillary is on the receiving end of longstanding anger about the DLC, Third Way, whatever you want to call it, that has preferred since the 90's (80's maybe) to empower Big Corporations and the creation of Monopoly capitalism at the expense of the majority of the population. She and her husband are among the leading members of that movement.

Maybe they thought this form of "trickle down" would ultimately benefit everyone. Or maybe the "centrists" saw it as benefiting them through the revolving door. Whatever. IF we don't get a different perspective in there, we're going to continue to see the middle class hollowed out, and the ranks of the poor get bigger, and the benefits of productivity flowing ever more frighteningly up to the top.

That's what we have to address if the Democrats are to offer any kind of actual alternative to the GOP.

Whether the messenger for that is Sanders or not matters less than stopping the tendency to ignore systemic restructuring of the economy and democracy and the creation of a New Gilded Age.

You obviously disagree, but I do not see Hillary being able to honestly address that, or meaning it.

[7962]

142. Dont forget; apparently he doesnt like blacks enough either. nt

[slipslidingaway]

147. knr and oh my how our views change when the 'Other Party' is waging wars, spying etc etc etc. n/t

[ibegurpard]

152. same bullshit as it ever was

Candidate comes along who starts taking wind out of frontrunner sails. Frontrunner groupies start attacking upstart. Upstart groupies fight back. Upstart groupies are called the downfall of upstart candidate. It's 2004 all over again. I'm just waiting to see who's waiting in the wings to play the Wes Clark role.

[Armstead]

153. Martin O'Malley?

[ibegurpard]

166. That's been my suspicion

We shall see.

[Paka]

167. He is a hero for sure,

and a brave one at that. It's a huge task he's taken on and we all need to be there and as the phrase goes, "have his back."

GO BERNIE!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

168. The only ones worried about goats are asses.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

173. That's Exactly. what happened.

[beam me up scottie]

175. 183 recs!

Way to go, Armstead!

[MADem]

176. He doesn't hate puppies.

He absolutely is old, grumpy and hectoring. He's also a decent fellow and a nice guy. He votes with the Democratic caucus ALWAYS on procedural issues, in exchange for his ranking member status, and he votes with them OFTEN on other issues.

He's a good servant to the people of his state. I'd like him to keep doing the fine job he's doing.

If he gets the nom, I will vote for him.

I've said this all along. I don't know a single Clinton or O'Malley supporter who would withhold their vote from Sanders were he nominated. Some of his supporters won't say the same if their candidate doesn't make the cut, though--and that's unfortunate.

[BeanMusical]

178. Great post, Armstead.

Recced. (sp?)

[raouldukelives]

179. It's easy to say you stand for liberal ideals.

Much more difficult to stand for them in reality for many.

For those unattached to Wall St, who take seriously the idea of not being a detriment to human rights and to the future of all life forms across the planet, its an easy call.

For those vested in the status quo. In continuing and expanding the police state, militarization, private prisons, austerity, war, climate change and suicide nets on sweatshops. One represents more profits and one represents less.

For most, that is all the info they require.

[merrily]

194. Bernie MUST go under the DNC bus. As far as DU is concerned, anyway.

Or so it would seem, unless.......


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026592890

See, Armstead? The vast majority of DU still prefers Bernie, after all.