The Challenge for White Liberals

[bravenak]

Nancy LeTourneau




It’s relatively easy for liberals to recognize and call out the racism of conservatives. But the interaction between #BlackLivesMatter activists and Bernie Sanders has given us an opportunity to examine our own unique brand.

I’m not here to judge or support the manner in which these activists confronted Sanders. I’ll simply note that many of the people criticizing them are the ones who have celebrated the same tactics when used in other situations: Exhibit A.

As so often happens when these opportunities present themselves, I am reminded of something “Zuky” wrote way back in 2007 about the “white liberal conundrum.” I’d like to take a moment to review what he said because it captures many of the interactions I’m reading on social media lately.

First of all, let’s define what we’re talking about:

Anti-racism is a rewarding but grueling journey which must be consciously undertaken and intrepidly pursued (both inwardly and outwardly) if one hopes to make serious progress along its twisting passageways and steep inclines. There’s no static end-condition at which an anti-racist can arrive and definitively declare, “Hallelujah! I am Not A Racist!” Rather, it’s a lifelong process of historical education, vigilant self-interrogation, personal growth, and socio-political agitation.
Now, let’s look at the difference between conservative and liberal racism.

Some might be surprised to learn that when people of color talk about racism amongst ourselves, white liberals often receive a far harsher skewering than white conservatives or overt racists. Many of my POC friends would actually prefer to hang out with an Archie Bunker-type who spits flagrantly offensive opinions, rather than a colorblind liberal whose insidious paternalism, dehumanizing tokenism, and cognitive indoctrination ooze out between superficially progressive words. At least the former gives you something to work with, something above-board to engage and argue against; the latter tacitly insists on imposing and maintaining an illusion of non-racist moral purity which provides little to no room for genuine self-examination or racial dialogue.
Ouch! If that one didn’t sting a bit, you’re probably not paying attention.

What usually happens when we’re confronted about this?




http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_07/the_challenge_for_white_libera056674.php

[WorseBeforeBetter]

1. Immasmartypants? UNREC.

Nite!

[bravenak]

2. You could have just ignored it. It's about an article written in 2007.

She just breaks it down.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

3. Her writing sucks... and that's just for starters.

And it's an opinion board... I'm expressing my opinion, however brief. Have 'fun' with your thread, though. Time for me to get some shut-eye.

[bravenak]

4. Sweet dreams!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

5. Thanks! You too, whenever the time comes.

[bravenak]

6. Now!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

7. In the same way that you don't wish to hear about Sanders' civil rights record...

...I'm not inclined to submit myself to someone else's lifelong program of becoming anti-racist. I do continue to learn more about race issues, as I do with many other issues. But as with those other issues, I'll typically choose my own time and my own way. I don't feel any guilt over any of this, and I'm still foursquare behind Bernie Sanders. I still want to systematically go after racist and violent cops, and their fixers in the DA's office. I still wants cops to learn that they work for us, and not the other way around. And so, I don't feel the need to accept a challenge to improve my approach to race issues. But I will always be glad to have a respectful and bidirectional exchange of ideas.

[bravenak]

8. Hmmm. You do not have to read anything I post. Nobody is trying to force you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. I enjoy reading some of your posts. Others I disagree with.

Tonight, I chose to say so. It was an attempt to turn this into a two-way discussion. And I say that for a reason. I think that over the past couple of days, you've been conducting one-way-ish discussions, in which you do not want to hear dissenting opinions, or be reminded of Sanders' ancient history. You've placed (nonbinding) prohibitions on what should be said to you. You've said in no uncertain terms that you want white progressives to listen and not speak. I'm good with the listening part, but I'm also taking back my right to assert my views without apology and on a level playing field. Thanks.


Edited for an iPad thing.

[bravenak]

10. Certain people never really have to listen.

We do it all the time. When roles get reversed, people get uncomfortable, then change can happen.
When it comes to race issues white progressives play color blind and nothing can come from a situation where people pretend not to see color in order not to discuss racism. It has gotten to the point where they take up all of the air in the room and dole out paternalistic racism laced with condescention. For years we have been as a group, the most reliable voting block for democrats but we are treated like it is not our party, we are here on sufferance and white support can be witheld (and it has been for many many years) for our issues if we don't behave the way they want or we demand the same quality of life as they have. We are told to wait. We are locked up and being murdered in catastrohic numbers, our allies are more mad about a speech interruption then the fact that we are dying and oppressed. How do you treat allies who value your silence and their speeches more than your life? Dunno. But you damn sure don't let them shut you down and just go lay down and die.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

17. I appreciate your response.

I think that issues of police brutality need to take top priority. I'll be very disappointed in Sanders if he doesn't do that as President (same with Hillary but she's not the topic here). I do think he sees this as a wake up call, given his comments in TX over the weekend. I would like to think that we (candidates, supporters) could sit down at some virtual table and agree that this needs to be a top, Level 1 priority for whichever Democrat is elected. Since we have no such virtual table, I'll be looking for Sanders and other candidates to make these declarations, promises that real police reform and criminal prosecution of police wrongdoing will be a top priority. And if Bernie does make more good statements toward that end (he will), this will be due to Netroots Nations. I personally think they should have gone about it differently. I really believe they would have gotten his ear and had a chance to tell him that they mean to make some noise and be heard this election cycle. I really think he would have been responsive to that. But it didn't happen like that, and the end was achieved. I see some merit in that, but I still believe the hand was played the wrong way.

There's never been a speech made that has been more important than a human life, and there never will be. That gets its own space on the page.

When it comes to issues of race, I believe I am your ally, even though it looks like we disagree on the tactic used at NRN over the weekend. And I'm your ally because our interests align. Nothing makes me grit my teeth and invent new cuss words like reading about yet another case of police murder (and plenty of less-than-murder cop violence). And yeah, those victims are far and away black. And it incenses me because that's not what I want my country to be, and because we've actually gone backwards from 1964 in some ways. I feel this way because I'm a classical liberal when it comes to the powerful over the powerless. There's something in me that detests those in power fucking those who have nothing. That's also the core of my politics. Whether it's violent cops against a largely black population, or Republicans screwing poor people and minorities, or crazy agrarian bastards in Cambodia slaughtering a large percentage of the populace, I side with the oppressed. Most of the rest of my political thought flows from there. Some would label that naivety, but it's how I feel.

That's more about me than I normally want to write, but I did want to try to communicate that while it's clear we have some differences, they don't seem to me like they're big structural differences, and I think we probably agree about a lot of things, at least in principle. Thank you.

[bravenak]

18. Thank you. I think we are on the same side.

I look forward to more discussion and hope that Bernie can get it done. We need it.

[DonCoquixote]

83. a very uncomfortable thought

"For years we have been as a group, the most reliable voting block for democrats but we are treated like it is not our party, we are here on sufferance and white support can be witheld (and it has been for many many years) for our issues if we don't behave the way they want or we demand the same quality of life as they have."

here is a thought, how much of this anger coming from "progressives" and "democrats" is the idea that they have "waited" eight years while Obama, who both the Clinton and Sanders wings love to attack, has occupied the seat that they feel their person should have gotten?

[bravenak]

86. They feel like they did us a favor by voting for the black man and now we owe.

Been pretty much told that. They do not care about how many times we held our noses to vote for their white candidates. We still owe. Forever.

[DonCoquixote]

96. nods

I still think that Bernie got played, especially as somebody still is not apologizing for all those dog whistles she let her husband blow. However, as a minority that admittedly is more on the progressive side of the fence, it is really really frustrating to see a bunch of people who were raised to be Empire's favorite children act like it, especially ones who are Boomers.

Oh yeah, do not think that the age-ism is not playing into this too. Barack is a Gen Xer, and who do we have running, Boomers. This does not take away from the race issue, because what a lot of Boomers do not realize is that their parent bought into a package: the rich white kids who were supposedly to rule the world after we beat the Nazis and who would beat the Commies. The sad proof of this is that, of all the "anybody but Hillary" candidates, where are the people with Melanin in their skin? Are the Boomer's browns and blacks unfit for considering, even though THEY were the ones bitten by cop dogs? Why did it take Gen X to come before anybody not milk-colored would be considered, much less win.

Mark this, there will not be another brown or black as a presidential candidate until the Boomers have passed. The closest that will be allowed to happen is if either Hillary or Jeb dies in office, and if Hillary has a VP like a Cory Booker or Julian Castro, or Jeb has a Susanna Martinez or Marco Rubio (not like he would pick a Ben Carson or even Herman Cain.) And that person would only be allowed in because he or she would be the last person the Boomers put in power, sealing their power.

[840high]

11. +1

[Cha]

12. "I’m not here to judge or support the manner in which these activists confronted Sanders. I’ll

simply note that many of the people criticizing them are the ones who have celebrated the same tactics when used in other situations: Exhibit A." ..

snip from your link//

"Any of that sound familiar? Zuky goes on from there with a description that sounds an awful lot like what happened both at Netroots Nation and in the aftermath.

From what I can see, though, a solid majority of white liberals maintain a fairly hostile posture toward anti-racist discourse and critique, while of course adamantly denying this hostility. Many white liberals consider themselves rather enlightened for their ability to retroactively support the Civil Rights movement and to quote safely dead anti-racist icons, even though their present-day physical, intellectual, and political orbits remain mostly segregated...Armed with “diversity” soundbites and melanin-inclusive photo-ops, they seek electoral, financial, and public relations support from people of color. Yet the consistent outcome of their institution-building agendas is to deprioritize and marginalize our voices, perspectives, experiences, concerns, cultures, and initiatives."

http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-white-liberal-conundrum.html

Wow.. from 2007.. I should have read it then.. I had no idea. DU enlightened me, though.

I can see why some people wouldn't like this.. and I know they don't like smartypants because she has always called out the ignorance of those who have railed against President Obama over the last 7 years and counting.

I, of course, like her.. she is very smart.

Mahalo brave

[bravenak]

13. It's a good article.

More folks need to push past the resentment and just read it.

[Cha]

14. Yes, it is and still holding true today, exponentially, around here.

[calimary]

15. It is a good article.

Most thought-provoking! One really illuminating part was the one about how an Archie Bunker-type would be preferable to a purported white liberal and his/her patronizing attitudes.

"At least the former gives you something to work with, something above-board to engage and argue against; the latter tacitly insists on imposing and maintaining an illusion of non-racist moral purity which provides little to no room for genuine self-examination or racial dialogue."

Makes me think of one particular Supreme Court ruling of late. The one that gutted the Voting Rights Act because we supposedly don't need it anymore. "YAY US! Let us all pat ourselves on the backs! OF COURSE we're post-racial! We don't need no stinking Voting Rights Act anymore!" Yeah. Kinda gives a whole new meaning to the term "colorblind."

[bravenak]

16. Colorblind sucks.

Can't do anything with that. Just be invisible.

[artislife]

97. ^^^this.

It denies a reality of experience.


People just don't want to feel bad about themselve. I always think when I hear " I am so tired of hearing about racism....blah blah blah." that you would really be tired of living with racism.

[SunSeeker]

19. K & R

[Number23]

20. Holy Moly... Did this woman just see the front page of DU or what???!

'Cause this description:

insidious paternalism, dehumanizing tokenism, and cognitive indoctrination ooze out between superficially progressive words

simply COULD not describe the hilariously stupid, self-pitying, "rallying the troops" claptrap in between Cornel West posts any better.

[bravenak]

21. It is from an article from 2007. Been going on that long. In general.

It's just a perfect article all around. I admit. I busted up laughing when I did the first read through.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's like we're stuck in a forever loop of bullshit.

[Number23]

22. "It is from an article from 2007" Huh???

July 21, 2015 9:56 AM
The Challenge for White Liberals
By Nancy LeTourneau

Though the article she's referring to is from 2007.

This bit is nothing short of BRUTAL in its honesty:

From what I can see, though, a solid majority of white liberals maintain a fairly hostile posture toward anti-racist discourse and critique, while of course adamantly denying this hostility. Many white liberals consider themselves rather enlightened for their ability to retroactively support the Civil Rights movement and to quote safely dead anti-racist icons, even though their present-day physical, intellectual, and political orbits remain mostly segregated…Armed with “diversity” soundbites and melanin-inclusive photo-ops, they seek electoral, financial, and public relations support from people of color. Yet the consistent outcome of their institution-building agendas is to deprioritize and marginalize our voices, perspectives, experiences, concerns, cultures, and initiatives.

Hmmm... that bolded bit sound like anybody we know???

[bravenak]

23. The good parts seem to be from the article.

[BillZBubb]

56. "Brutal in its honesty"?

Where's the honesty? It is a gross generalization and frankly an absurd accusation.

[bravenak]

57. It was perfect.

[BillZBubb]

65. Perfect bullshit.

[bravenak]

66. I guess you put our UPPITY selves in our places!!

Scared of you!!!

[BillZBubb]

67. Your comment makes no sense.

I said the article cited in the OP was a gross generalization and like almost all generalizations wrong and unfair.

I never said anyone was "uppity" and never tried to put anyone "in their place". I will say if you believe the content of that article you are wrong. If you wish to try to make something more of that, it is on you, not me.

[bravenak]

68. You talk down to people. We cannot tell your tone but your words are cold and harsh and demanding.

[BillZBubb]

70. Perhaps, but I'm not talking down, I am reacting in anger to accusations I find offensive.

[bravenak]

71. Please calm down. You will find that we are quite awesome if you approach us like you like us.

[BillZBubb]

73. Who is we?

All I can gather is "we" are people with contempt for white liberals.

[bravenak]

75. Humans.

[1StrongBlackMan]

106. LOL ...

I guess he/she read right past:

... the latter tacitly insists on imposing and maintaining an illusion of non-racist moral purity which provides little to no room for genuine self-examination or racial dialogue.

Because it article is generalized and absurd.

[bravenak]

107. Ain't none of them READ a damn word of it.

No wonder they keep doing everything described.

[BainsBane]

81. It also points to exactly the problem you aren't seeing

downplaying racism as an interpersonal social stigma and bad PR, rather than an overarching system of power under which we all live and which has socialized us all;

You seem to see it as individual, about whether people hold good thoughts or act badly. The author is talking about its being a systemic ideology and power structure that influences all of us. You're also doing exactly what the author describes as common among white liberals.

[BillZBubb]

94. Bullshit!

[Number23]

58. You're right. I'm so sorry. All of these people trotting out Cornel West and cherry picked

MLK quotes, and screaming about how Bernie "marched with MLK" and acting as though the 180 people signed up on the BlacksForBernie Twitter feed means Bernie has the black vote locked up totally disproves the validity of that quote about the people who are most hostile to minorities and our opinions are always the first one to trot out tokens to be used while comfortably quoting icons that have long since passed away and are in no position to argue with how their legacy is being used.

You're right. Those things couldn't have less to do with one another.

[BillZBubb]

63. Again, it was a generalization and frankly bullshit.

Your examples of a few people posting things proves absolutely ZERO.

And very, very few people believe Sanders has the black vote locked up. I certainly don't.

[Number23]

69. You sound angry and I don't blame you. I'd be angry too if my sole purpose for entering a

thread was to disrupt it by pretending that the bullshit that's been blanketing DU for the last two-three MONTHS didn't exist.

If you haven't seen the cherry picked MLK quotes, the "why don't black people love Bernie?? He marched in Selma, didn't he???!one" the cherry picked Malcolm quotes, the "Cornell LOVES Bernie" meme etc. etc. etc. then instead of wandering into this thread two days later to start shit, why don't you take some time and actually read what's been going on?

You seem to believe that the quote is "bullshit" and that should just make it so! The only thing more bewildering and pointless than your coming into this thread all puffed up two days later is the idea that think anyone else gives as much of a damn about your opinion as you do.

[BillZBubb]

72. Again you miss the point. The OP was a generalization about white liberals.

You want to focus on a very few posts on a message board.

Most posters on DU are probably white liberals and never posted anything like what you listed. So, do they get painted with the same brush as those that do? In the OP, yes they do.

[Number23]

80. I used to think that this behavior ONLY applied to the white "liberals" on DU

but after reading the past few days, I am seeing that it is actually endemic on Twitter and several other areas of white "progressive" thought.

"Most posters on DU are probably white liberals and never posted anything like what you listed."

Now this right here is the bullshit. Because even if they're not posting it themselves, they are ALLLLL too quick to run and rec it which is just as bad.

The latest cherry picked MLK quote had about 170 recs. The hyper defensive rallying the troops posts get at least about 100 recs. The "Black people LOVE Bernie!!1 Don't let these polls and articles and comments on Black Twitter and in black media fool you!!1" posts get at least 100-200 recs. The crowing about the 180 black people on BlacksforBernie got about 200 recs.

Now, we all know that 200 recs in the rest of cyberspace is nothing but here on DU, that means a SIGNIFICANT portion of regular readers agree with you.

[bravenak]

89. Yes!nt

[freshwest]

74. BillZBubb. I have questions about your post:

"Brutal in its honesty"?

Is it not brutal to you, since you seem angry and continue, asking:

Where's the honesty?

You see nothing honest there, not at all, in any stretch of the imagination, you say it is not honest, am I getting you right?

Are you getting a bit carried away with loaded language or do you really mean it when you say:

It is a gross generalization and frankly an absurd accusation.

It is a gross generalization of who or what? Gross meaning 'huge.' Do you feel it includes you, then, too?

Then you announce:

(it is) frankly an absurd accusation

What is absurd about it? Who is being accused?

The article doesn't bother me at all. I say that as a CCWP (card carrying white person according to my indentification documents).

And I think some people - not saying you, of course - should heed the words of James Baldwin in his debate with William Buckley. Who truly was clueless and arrogant:

“...Until the moment comes when we, the Americans, are able to accept the fact that my ancestors are both black and white, that on that continent we are trying to forge a new identity, that we need each other, that I am not a ward of America, I am not an object of missionary charity, I am one of the people who built the country—until this moment comes there is scarcely any hope for the American dream. If the people are denied participation in it, by their very presence they will wreck it. And if that happens it is a very grave moment for the West."

There is a lot more of the transcript at the link, and explains what black people have learned in America. It would be unwise for them to forget their history and the danger that it has presented to them in the past and now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025512166#post12

That was half a century ago. The 1960s progressive era sputtered through obstruction, racism, sexism, fundamentalism, commercialization of the media, greed and dismissing the lives of others, degrading them and making racism and sexism and all the rest 'acceptble' again on a scale not seen before.

In all of this Obama was elected and the racism and John Birch Society way of thinking has grown on a level few thought possible. That is not you, but I still don't see why anyone is offended at anything that black people have to say. Anything.

Our white heritage is not being seen as property, used as 3/5th of a person for plantation owners, not the victim of untold thousands lynched even after slavery officially ended, and constant daily, grinding degradation that affects the mind, the heart and lives of black people.

A look at the AA group without talking until you grasp the picture from their side, would help to inform why this article is written the way that it is. It has many very intelligent posters and many stories. It's definitely a welcoming group to anyone who want to learn. I await your thoughtful response. TIA.

[LWolf]

24. I read it.

I recognized the part about preferring to hang with Bunker than with colorblind liberals, because I've often felt the same about Republicans and neoliberal and conservative Democrats.

I prefer the straightforward enemy to the supposed ally that stabs me in the back.

I am sorting through things, looking for examples of "insidious paternalism, dehumanizing tokenism, and cognitive indoctrination" that I've seen, or even participated in. I'm a bit more hesitant with this part. I can come up with things that I think fit, but I don't know if those are what "Zuky" intended. Who is Zuky? I went looking and found a blog about "anti-racism, anti-sexism, subversion, politics, non-European history and culture, China and Asia, gardening, food, nature, consciousness." I'm assuming I found the right Zuky?

I can say that I'd like to hear from those suffering from racially directed paternalism, tokenism, and indoctrination, hear their perspective.

I can say that this part resonates with me: There’s no static end-condition at which an anti-racist can arrive and definitively declare, “Hallelujah! I am Not A Racist!” Rather, it’s a lifelong process of historical education, vigilant self-interrogation, personal growth, and socio-political agitation.

I know that this is true. I know that, within myself throughout my lifetime, I've confronted various issues about my own perspective on PoC, and it's been a journey. A journey that is not over. It IS a lifelong process. I could share that process if any were interested, but I don't think this thread is really about my individual journey.

I know that, as far as white racism goes, I've met and known people at many different points along their own journeys. It IS a challenge, and one I've not avoided. For myself:

I'm not happy that Sanders has become a target for this issue. I understand why, but I'm still not happy, because I think he's the wrong target. If BLM wants a political target, I think that sabotaging the candidate that is most likely to listen to and work with them is counterproductive. If this brings him down, there isn't going to be a POTUS who will better represent them.

Then I realize that maybe it's exactly what is needed to force social justice issues to the top. The whole nation is focused on economic issues, as we should be with the neoliberal destruction of the middle class. Many of those not affected by social injustices might care, but not agitate for change if not pressured. I accept that. I think that Sanders is smart enough to respond, and can take the pressure. I hope that those putting the pressure on will support his efforts to reach out to them, and put the piling on to rest.

In looking at my own "journey," I'll say that BLM has pointed out my next steps. I can say that I'm in a pretty good spot on that journey, but that I've missed something. I haven't paid enough attention. I've dealt with what is in front of me in my own life, with the people in my family, community, and workplace, but I haven't paid enough attention to the larger world. I can take on that challenge.

Does BLM want me to? What, really, does BLM want from white liberals? To confront our own biases? I hope we are all on that lifelong process. To, as Zuky said, be "forced to make tough decisions about which of their previous alliances and networks — newly illuminated and often unfavorably recontextualized by anti-racist analysis — are worth trying to maintain, which are too invested in the distortions of the white lens to salvage, and which new directions and networks to pursue?"

That is part of that life-long process. Does anyone want to put some alliances and networks on the table to analyze? In all honesty, I'm not sure what alliances and networks those would be. Speaking just for myself, and not for "white liberals."

I am open to listening, and to multiple perspectives on the issue of racism and racial justice. For me, that means seeking out those other voices and perspectives, because they haven't sought me out. Actively seeking, rather than passively waiting for those voices to swim into my life.

It could be that GDP is the wrong place for these conversations, since the focus is on campaigning. Since this is where the issue has been put on the table, though, I've responded.

[bravenak]

29. I missed this earlier.

I think what this is is a process and we are at the stage of dawning awareness. The way things are done becomes routine, even for us. It takes something to shake us out of the fog and to decide that shit has to change.
I think we are just going to have to take it one day at a time and try to keep the lines of communication open, even if things get tough.

I promise to answer any reasonable question fairly an as accurately as I can, even if I think it may be difficult to understand at first. For me, it is innate, it is a part of me I cannot take off and go move on with my life, like second nature. I have to think about EVERYTHING I do through the lens of race. How I approach a clerk in the store, where I drive, which store follows me around and I even plan on what to do if attacked physically for being black. It has happened to me before and I'm sure it will again, so I stay mentally prepared.

I try to keep in mind that white folks do not have to deal with this shit, and when they get confronted with it, I WANT to be sympathetic, but I cannot. I have to let them go through it or they will learn nothing. They are not infants to be shielded from racial criticisms, criticisms lobbed at us daily. And the nation will not be getting any whiter, so I hope and pray that they prepare their children for a nation that will not be so bloody receptive to white privilege and catering to white folks at the detriment of all others.

I think there is a problem with the way white people can exist in a world where most people resemble them, here in America, but none of the rest of us have that luxury. I could tell something was seriously askew with democrats when I noticed people saying that blacks owed them because they voted for Obama. A black man. Black folks have been voting for white men since they could vote, yet we are owed nothing and treated meanly. Why are we so poor and in jail and dying if progressives see us as equals? You can see it all over the place. I don't really have a solution other that white people need to leave their white lives and join Black Lives Matter.

[LWolf]

37. I haven't dealt with this kind of shit in a decade,

and I never dealt with it at the same level of a PoC. I spent all of my life, until '05, in a very diverse so Cal, where I was just one of so many different races and ethnicities, and we were neighbors, and worked together, and socialized together...for the most part, though, I think I took it for granted that racism was slowly dying. My first indication that it wasn't was Rodney King, and I suddenly heard and saw enough from my fellow white community members to realize that we hadn't come as far as I'd thought.

I moved out of state in '05 to support my elderly mom, and I love the physical setting I live in. I love that it's rural; I'm somewhat of a loner, and like space and quiet. I have to say, though, that I've never been in a whiter place than this that I've lived in for the last decade. It's, frankly, way too homogeneous for me. I MISS the richness diversity brings. I've noted that, while there are some blatant racists, the vast majority of my community would tell you that racism is terrible, etc., etc.; what they don't understand, though, is that they are looking at race as simply a physical trait. For the first few years, the only black people I met were kids who were adopted into white families. Those families were fiercely protective of them, and on the lookout for what they understood as racism, but there was a piece missing. It was okay to be black, as long as your culture was all white. I question whether this is really best for the adoptees, and if the "not racists" around me would really be "not racist" if they were moved out of their homogeneous bubble.

So, I've been living a different, narrower life for the last decade. I'm sorry I haven't paid enough attention to what's happening in the rest of the world. I agree that it's a process. Some are just becoming aware. For me, I've been at least partially aware, but so far away from the center that I'm now waking up. Again.

[ismnotwasm]

25. What an excellent read

Thank you.

[bravenak]

31. My eyes bugged out reading it. So apt.

[sufrommich]

26. Excellent OP and article. k&r. nt

[gollygee]

27. Ouch! That's got to smart!

since it's so on target with so much I've read on DU lately. I'm going to paste that paragraph again.


Some might be surprised to learn that when people of color talk about racism amongst ourselves, white liberals often receive a far harsher skewering than white conservatives or overt racists. Many of my POC friends would actually prefer to hang out with an Archie Bunker-type who spits flagrantly offensive opinions, rather than a colorblind liberal whose insidious paternalism, dehumanizing tokenism, and cognitive indoctrination ooze out between superficially progressive words. At least the former gives you something to work with, something above-board to engage and argue against; the latter tacitly insists on imposing and maintaining an illusion of non-racist moral purity which provides little to no room for genuine self-examination or racial dialogue.

[guillaumeb]

28. Racism is in the American DNA.

It started with the attempted genocide of the First Peoples in the US, followed quickly by the enslavement of the Africans. After that it encompassed the mixed blood and Africans in Haiti, the Mexicans, the Chinese, and on and on. Always with the blacks and reds as the underlying and "default" groups to hate.

In Canada there were very few blacks, but the First Peoples were definitely second class citizens. As were the Francophones.

I have been following your posts bravenak, and it is obvious that many people are very uncomfortable with them.

On a side note, I followed up on a link in one of the posts and discovered that having native blood also makes one non-white. If this is "true", does that make a person with one native grandparent non-white?

Just asking, and keep talking on this subject.

[bravenak]

30. Native americans are non white.

One quarter will allow you access to things like the Native hospital and such up here in Alaska. I know I am making people uncomfortable, but thats how it should be. I was so uncomfortable with the way people were acting it made me sick.

[guillaumeb]

36. Interesting about First People blood making one non-white.

I just read about that on one of the posts. My father's mother was Cree.


Keep making people uncomfortable. It is impossible to get past a problem if one will not admit that there is a problem. And it is impossible to not see the huge problem with racism that having a mixed President has brought out. President Obama is a sign of hope but also a constant reminder that the slave times are truly not so far away.

[freshwest]

84. My mother's father was Cree. When I asked for some services for my kid, they tried to shunt us off

to the tribes. But we had no idea which clan he was in as he's been dead for many years and without such a membership it doesn't matter so we could not prove it. They said nothing about a blood test to us.

I don't know what would have been better, but I don't consider myself native, although I have a standing invitation to the pow wows from a tribe here. They came to help people and the Cree came from all over the USA and Canada to help us years ago. They came one year where my son lives and blessed the ground and people.

They came back when we had either a celebration or a crisis at hand. I know hispanic people from Texas, Colorado and the eastern seaboard who go to pow wows to connect with them. I don't have the stamina to do any of these things anymore.

And by the 1/4tr standard, my kid does not qualify. It really is a matter of having an unbroken connection. I have never feel more at home and at peace than when they come to visit my kid, and did the hoop dance, the eagle dance and the all those drums. It resonated with me deep down on a level I've never felt before. That 1/4th Cree in my blood dosesn't change anything.

The only thing it ever did was make people think I was native, and I informed people I was Anglo, because I don't have living family to vouch for me.

I do know that when I had to get genetic tests in case I needed an organ tranplant, they thought my blood type was odd. It is a purely 'Ayran' type.

[guillaumeb]

95. My grandmother's people have lived in the Quebec/New Brunswick area for many centuries.

I have many close relatives on that side. But I do not consider myself to be First People. My family (and I personally)generally identifies as francophone Quebeckers.

Interesting how our histories show the fallacy of presuming that any person can be identified as belonging to a particular race. Interesting also that, given the centuries of mixing by different ethnic groups, how can people really feel that race is a valid scientific concept. To me the term race has no scientific meaning or biological validity. It is more an expression of extreme ethnic identification.

Interesting also that neither of us "consider ourselves to be native". President Obama considers himself to be black even though he is presumably 1/2 white.

[artislife]

98. My grandfater lived on the Redcliff Reservation

http://redcliff-nsn.gov/

He ran away when he was 16. He had been orphaned by the age of 7 and was indentured out to a German family in the summers to work their fields. And who knows what else. My brother drove him from Mpls to the Rez when he was near 80. He shook and cried in the car and said "Bad, bad." He never got out of the car.

Because he left and never looked back, when we tried to get his name registered, they refused. They may have thought we wanted some Casino monies, but what we wanted was him to have his home back.

I know my blood is Native, but I really can't claim it in today's meaning of Native. We have worked more with the Latino side of the family and Latino issues, because he married a Naturalize Mexican woman, mi abuela. Still, that makes me even more Native!But I haven't lived in the pockets of community as such.

[guillaumeb]

104. Interesting story.

Shows how the term "white person" or "black person" or "latino/a person" can mean many different things.

[freshwest]

99. My people were in Alabama and Georgia where my grandfather lived with his second wife.

I traced some of it through native geneological sites and found most were driven out of state to Oklahoma. Broken families and broken lives, my mother was an anorexic alcoholic, which I've been told is common.

My father's side came here in the 1590s. They had a falling out with the royals. So we've been in the states for a long time. We have parallel generations but we know none of them.

As far as racial identification and Obama, he may look 'white' when he hasn't had sunshine. When I lived down south I was a deep bronze color, not with some tanning stuff. That is my color then. Obama at times has his father's color come out.

I was always told that melanin skin is a dominant trait. Where I live now, many natives are pale in comparison to some people. It's not like there is much sun here anyway.

I identify with who I grew up with and I think that has a lot to do with it. Of course now there are so many emigrants from around the world, that there is no stereotypical anything. And many of the families here are mixed, not just the B&W, but everything else.

Actually, Obama first labeled himself as a 'mutt' when asked. Now he's become the black president because of his haters and his supporters. I've never heard him identify himself as black personally, but he feels as burden for black people and has decided when he leaves office that racial equality is going to be his new focus in life.

Nice talking with you and you're fortunate to have deep roots. I wonder if that is a source of angst with people who don't feel that sense of belonging.

[guillaumeb]

105. Excellent points.

When you said:
"I identify with who I grew up with and I think that has a lot to do with it. Of course now there are so many emigrants from around the world, that there is no stereotypical anything. And many of the families here are mixed, not just the B&W, but everything else. "

Agreed. There was always a lot of intermarrying among Quebeckers. The result is a significant number of "metis", our word to describe mixed blood people. (Related to the Spanish mestizo. ) My family is typical in that sense.

When you wrote:
" I wonder if that is a source of angst with people who don't feel that sense of belonging. "

Agreed also. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have no connection to the ancestors. Imagine the experience of the black slaves who were cut off from their languages, their customs, their families. Yet another aspect of the crime of slavery.

It was nice talking with you also.

[freshwest]

108. My sense is that America belongs more to African Americans than any group but natives.

Because as you and I've said, the crime of slavery cut them off from their ancestors and those who could have helped them.

I have the genealogical records from my father's side, name by name, marriage by marriage, back over a thousand years. I know people in Europe and Russia who have the same thing.

Many Europeans are also cut off from their ancestors. They feel a desperation to define what being an American is. But in recent generations, they see themselves more as part of a world culture and American identity is not as important to them as it once was.

Part of that is egocentricity. The way I have come to see it, is that the world was destined to be one. It's said that before what we have as recorded history, there were peoples who traveled to see the globe. They went for trade of one kind of or another, and they were either warlike or peaceful.

I regard the European expansion as one that will eventually unite many peoples. Whether it was a good or bad thing in the way it was handled remains to be seen. But it was going to happen.

The next world travelers and traders are from Asia. Love them or hate them or be indifferent, they are going to change world culture. It's part of a cycle.

[KoKo]

32. What about actions from President Obama? He has TIME LEFT to do ACTION....

Any Dem President we elect in 2016 will need a year to get going and legislation for Today's Problems will be pushed off down the Road.

Why can't Obama Address these issues NOW when things are so dire rather than holding off for over Two Years to address what's hurting people NOW?

[bravenak]

33. What does he have to do with it? Is this a find a black guy to blame for racism day?

This is about WHITE liberal inaction and dismissiveness and yes, racism. He has nothing to do with white liberal racism. He FIGHTS it from progressive Democrats everyday.

Now, what do you plan to do to help our brothers and sister stop dying at the hands of the White Supremacist state? Anything? Or just ask why Obama hasn't fixed racism yet? Like Fox News does?

[bettyellen]

38. Everyday is "find a black guy to blame for racism day"

In America. And sadly DU reflects that.
Now that Bernie has begun to listen hopefully his more ardent defenders will try it.
I think they're embarrassed because Sanders is showing a great deal of decency that they themselves have lacked.

[bravenak]

43. I hope they see after the buzz wears off that they were a FOOL at this party.

[bettyellen]

45. I was amazed at the accusations of racism against BLM members- a whole bunch of people claimed they

Said "white boy" when it was white progressives- then when corrected, said it was much the same thing. So now calling someone a white progressive is racist!? In what world is being called a white progressive a slur? In what world are the #bernie is so _____ making fun of anyone but his overzealous supporters (invoking MLK like they have Tourette's)

When someone here claimed Bernie is so Latino was intended to mock Latinos.... I knew they were desperately full of shit- they knew it was mocking them!

[bravenak]

49. I think they are blinded by the constant back patting they recieve from each other.

the constant reasurance that they are perfectly wise and purely progressive.

[sufrommich]

34. What does this have to do with the OP?

[bravenak]

35. This is a challenge for WHITE LIBERALS. Not for President Obama. He's BLACK.

[bravenak]

40. Which is black like my husband. I dare you to tell my husband he's not black to his face.

Your intellectualizing it from your white perspective is not accurate nor helpful to race relations. We identify OURSELVES. Not white people.

[Man from Pickens]

41. What is inaccurate about it?

Half white + half black = mulatto

by definition - it's not a matter of opinion

I could identify myself as Uzbek if I chose, however there wouldn't be the slightest amount of truth to it no matter how much I believed in it. If you wish to deceive yourself, that's your privilege, but don't insult others by demanding they also believe a demonstrable untruth.

[bravenak]

42. You are not black. You do not get to identify us. Obama says he's black.

Why do you as a white dude need to have a say in it? What's it to you? Just HAVE to be making ALL the decisions?

[Man from Pickens]

44. Since when am I a white dude?

Who are you to identify me as such?

I get to identify myself, and you have no right whatsoever to do so - right?

Is Rachel Dozekar black because she so self-identifies?

[bravenak]

47. Because black people NEVER tell hlaf black folks that that is not black. Never.

It is a cultural faux pas in the blaxk community and offensive to call people 'mulatto', all black people know this.

[Man from Pickens]

50. So where does the "white" come from?

I could be Asian, or Indian, or Arab, or a number of other races. Why did you feel that you had the right to identify me as white, casually violating my right of self-identification, which you clearly feel so passionately about?

And what about Rachel Dozekar? Not a drop of black blood, yet she identifies as black. Is she black, white, or something else?

[bravenak]

52. If you were the word mulatto would have never slipped out.

[Man from Pickens]

60. I addressed that misconception in post 51

It did not slip, I was being quite technically precise - a level of precision that is important if racial issues are to be rigorously contemplated. Unlike those of exclusively African origin, Obama not only had a white parent but was raised by white people, and had many of the white privileges generally denied to non-self-identifying, fully black people. His life experience is far more "white" than "black", by any serious standard. Identifying him as mulatto, besides being quite technically correct and non-offensive to most actual mulattos around the world, was intended to highlight this difference of his experience vs. more common black experiences.

Or to put it more simply: identifying Obama as black is misleading since he is neither fully black nor does he share the black experience.

Which is why, now 7 years in, things like the drug war, police violence, and mass incarceration are not treated with the gravity they deserve, and indeed have not been addressed at all except where thrust into the spotlight by events.

If a real black man does not treat the key issues affecting the black community with a far greater degree of urgency and determination than Obama has (and we know he can, as we just saw with his dogged push for TPP), then the value of the moniker is diminished.

[bravenak]

62. Oh, so he's not fixing so let's do absolutely nothing. White people have no fault in racism.

Only Obama. If he doesn't put on his superhero suit and magic away white racism, why complain? Nothing to see here folks, just some black folks whining about dying and being locked up!

[Man from Pickens]

76. That's no requirement

Why would you want to take ownership of Obama's record on black issues when it's abysmal?

Has police violence gotten better or worse while Obama has been President? (He's been supplying them with military gear as we saw in Ferguson and elsewhere.)

Have incarceration levels for black people normalized to the national average since Obama has been President? (Nope, black people still getting arrested at almost 10x the per capita rate. All driven by the drug war, which Obama as President had and continues to have enormous power to abate, which he chooses not to use.)

Obama doesn't need to magic away racism. All he needs to do is use the power he has as President to do the right thing. Seven years on, he hasn't. In fact, if he could magic away racism, it would still be less effective in solving the problems you identified than the exercise of the actual power he actually has right this literal moment.

He could magic away mass incarceration. He could order a stand down on the drug war, stop the incentivization programs for local police militarization overnight, issue pardons to each and every non-violent drug "crime" prisoner in the whole country. That good enough?

He could do that. But he doesn't. So excuse me if, on that basis, I question adhering to him as some icon of blackness.

[bravenak]

77. Are you done ranting at me about that black man yet?

[Man from Pickens]

78. Sure

back to where we were previously...


So, is Rachel Dozekar black on the basis of her self-identification?

[DonCoquixote]

82. ok, let me stop you here

"
Obama doesn't need to magic away racism. All he needs to do is use the power he has as President to do the right thing. Seven years on, he hasn't."

and how much of that is because of the very self congratulating white self appointed "liberals" like the Nancy Pelosis, Mary Landrieu's, and yes, the Rahm Emmanuels and HILLARY CLINTONS that were trying to undo everything he did from day one, who would glady throw him to the wolves (aka "leak to the press" or write a "best selling book&quot whenever he tried to go one inch too far to the left, or in Hillary's case, when she did not get that war with Syria that her donors have been wanting.

No one person can make the changes, and if the Obama and yes the Bush administrations have taught anything, it is that the presidency, for all it''s pomp, is just the end of the line after a bunch of sleazy bastards have already set the dominoes in motion. It will take groups to defeat racism, and a large part of that will involve the majority learning to actually enageg with and lsiten to the very people they have been conditioned to hate, fear and disrespect.

[M0rpheus]

46. Just a hint for ya...

mu·lat·to
m(y)o͝oˈlädō/
dated offensive
noun
a person of mixed white and black ancestry, especially a person with one white and one black parent.

Just because you know how to read a definition doesn't mean you know how (or in this case, whether) it should be used.

[Man from Pickens]

51. Your culturally provinical definition is limited in scope

In the areas where most mulattos are to be found (South America) it is not at all offensive, and in fact is considered a compliment in the context of mixed-race individuals having a reputation for being particularly attractive.

[bravenak]

54. We are NOT in South America!!!!

[Man from Pickens]

61. We are on planet Earth

the world doesn't end at the border...

[bravenak]

64. We are discussing AMERICA, not the WORLD.

[Man from Pickens]

79. I see no such stipulation

If I missed it somewhere earlier in the conversation, please point it out to my failing eyes.

[bravenak]

85. I posted the op, and it never once mentions any place not in America. It is about AMERICAN politics

[marble falls]

90. Sorry I didn't see this until I got called to jury, thank you for standing up to it....

I only wish someone had gotten your back sooner.

I am shocked this didn't go down 7-0. But I'll settle for 5-2

On Thu Jul 23, 2015, 06:25 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

No he isn't
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=469634

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"Mulattto" is a racist slave-era term for a multiracial person comparing them to a mule. It is not a neutral term. And a multiracial person in any era has always been considered black by every racist person.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 23, 2015, 06:44 AM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I can't believe any progressive would use this racist term--nor deny any individual who self-identifies as black. MIRT?
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed - "Mulatto" is a racist slave-era term for a multiracial person comparing them to a mule.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Mulatto is a term originally used to refer to a person who is born from one black parent and one white parent; more broadly, it refers to a person of mixed white (European) and black (African) ancestry in any proportion. Contemporary usage of the term is generally confined to situations in which the term is considered relevant in a historical context, as in the 21st-century United States people of mixed European and African ancestry rarely choose to identify as "mulatto".

The term is considered archaic in the United States, and some misinformed people there find it derogatory. (wiki)
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "mulatto" is relic, as is the Dixie rag, from racist history. It is nearly always used as a pejorative as opposed to constructively when discussing race in this country.

Unintentionally or not the word used in this context is the very example of "disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate".

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[bravenak]

91. Thank you.

I was worried it would be something bad for me, lol!

[marble falls]

92. I don't alert on much, but I certainly would have on this one. I'm glad I got on the jury....

The events of the last two years since the Trayvon Martin shooting, and especially the church shootings in South Carolina have made me hyper aware of what people say and how they say it. We might be in the last great death writhings of racism in the US but racism is far, far, far from being dead. Words count because words do kill. But you knew all this already.

I am truly sorry no one got your back until the alerter did this morning.

We may disagree on Bernie, but I certainly do get your point about being schooled on civil rights history. And I want to stand next to you on the changes this country needs make on race relations until they finally get made. We're better than what we got right now.

[bravenak]

93. Thank you for that.

Funny enough I really have no real problem with bernie. It's just how bad alot of his supporters have been treating me. I took the test and was 96 percent Bernie. But I just do not feel comfortable voting for him now. I cannot take 8 years of this.

I know alot of you are not like that and trying so hard, and I feel bad for it being like this. So, sorry for that but it's just to hurtful. I probably won't post much more about this or him after these 3 hides and all of these alerts. I almost don't even want to watch the debates.

Maybe things will change and I'll change my mind. Anything can happen.

[M0rpheus]

59. Alas, I don't live in South America.

You can head right on down there and call 'em what you want.

But since we are not there and you have been notified that the word is considered offensive here, you may want to choose another term.

[luvspeas]

55. mulatto is a very insulting term btw

[bettyellen]

48. "Obama is a mulatto" ? What century are you living in buddy where you get to make the call?

And use words that were packed away 20 years ago by decent people. Just ick.

[bravenak]

53. Even my grandma didn't say mulatto.

[freshwest]

87. Mulatto to me is an old slave owner term. This thread is making me ill. On that note...

[bravenak]

88. Nice kitties!!!

Much better!

[freshwest]

100. Yes, this is a white problem that is spilling onto black people. It starts with whites working on it

[luvspeas]

101. indeed. +1 bazillion