So it's a pile on by progressives of the most progressive candidate out there

[Armstead]

Apparently Bernie Sanders, who has spent his whole life fighting for social and economic justice, is not good enough for cettain contingents because he has not made Race the centerpiece of his campaign -- at least he has not packaged it in an acceptable way.

Therefore he is to be tossed into the trash heap of candidates who are not good enough to represent progressive positions.

Can soneone enlighten me as to who is acceptable? The bar keeps getting raised and shifted so I don't know who the hell is going to pass the litmus test.

Personally, Bernie has been my main man since way back, when he was one of a lonely handful of very rare progressives in the House. And even among them, he was often alone out there on the limb standing up for truly progressive issues...Back when it was a dirty secret to talk about what was really happening to Americas poor, working and middle classes.

It is so depressing that now some are condeming him for not being pure enough....

And as a lefty, I hate it when people pull that "purity" line...And here I am doing it.

It feels like falling down the rabbit hole.

[JDPriestly]

1. Bernie is a pro and has handled worse. He'll deal with it with courage, dignity and

compassion. Don't worry.

[Armstead]

4. Oh I'm not worried about him

It's the attitudes behind this that disturbs me.

[GoneFishin]

2. Many are sincerely passionate about it, but I have seen many HRC supporters opportunistically

piling on, I assume because they see weak spot, and it won't require a discussion of any policy issues.

[marble falls]

36. They hope it moves our attention from Hillary's quiet elephants in the room:

Keystone, fracking, TPP.......

[sabrina 1]

3. It is not a pile on by Progressives, do not be fooled, it is obvious where these attacks are

coming from. But it certainly isn't from Progressives.

[RobertEarl]

5. Yeah, not progressives

[stranger81]

9. Bingo. Just today in GD & GDP, you can view posts from those bashing Sanders and supporters

saying they're fine with the Koch brothers, since they give money to the United Negro College fund, too.

They're fine with big banks, and happy to let Wall Street continue as usual, because . . . . reasons?

I see a lot of single-issue voters leading the swift boating -- people who are unconcerned with economic justice, environmental issues, women's rights, our country's penchant for fighting war for profit, or any of the other policy issues that traditionally concern the left aside from racial justice.

[cui bono]

19. Wait, wut????????? Find with Koch brothers? But bash Sanders?

I gotta see that! Are they going to support a Scott Walker administration then cuz that's what the Kochs plan on giving them.

[stranger81]

27. Here:

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251466222#post102|

[dsc]

40. that is blatantly dishonest

I read the post and it doesn't say what you said it says. He said that he didn't care about the Koch brothers now not that they were fine. He viewed it, accurately in my view, as a distraction.

[stranger81]

68. The poster said they don't care about the

Koch brothers because they donate to the UNCF. Spin that all you will, but I didn't put those words in anyone's mouth.

[brer cat]

41. You are calling out bravenak

for an exchange you clearly either misunderstood or are misrepresenting here. I think you just defined the "piling on by progressives" that you are supposedly so offended by. This is totally dishonest and you should delete.

[stranger81]

66. I can read. So can everyone else here.

[awoke_in_2003]

95. Yes....

but it seems some of us have a reading comprehension problem.

[stranger81]

96. Agreed.

But it isn't who you think it is.

[mcar]

87. Try again

Your interpretation of the post is way off.

Can't we do better than this?

[stranger81]

88. It says what it says.

Everyone can read it, and judge for themselves.

[cui bono]

18. +1

[-none]

55. Nor liberals, either.

No one close to the Center or Left of Center is doing the pile on. So who's left? Hmmm...

[ALBliberal]

6. Bernie 's got this! He is a tough politician. He will turn it into a win.

[reddread]

7. trust in yourself, the rest pay cash

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. It's mostly the same small handful of people, with some exceptions.

Yes, the issue is important. And there are people questioning Sanders and doing so in good faith. But there's also that same small group of people you get accustomed to seeing every time there's a big blow-up at DU.

[MADem]

13. The big blow up is less about Sanders than it is those purporting to speak FOR him.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

[DisgustipatedinCA]

14. Well, I support him, but I'm not his spokesman.

But I was referring to a repeated pattern with many past DU blowups.

[MADem]

70. My reference had more to do with how people who aren't presently onboard his campaign

perceive the pushback his acolytes are delivering in the wake of NN15, as though the perspective from the "white world" is the only valid one and anyone who doesn't "get" his achievements and take them as some kind of present "proof" is being...what? Obstreperous? Difficult? Uppity? It's like "How dare you not see this truth, that you HAVE to vote for him, you have no choice, because this guy did/said something half a century ago!"

They aren't helping, and they don't even realize that they're making it worse with the "litany of the saints" quotes about what he did way back when. It stinks of rotten pander. Or worse, shut up, sit down, and vote the way we tell you, because you have no where else to go. Or--better still--it's all HILLARY's fault!! She and the Koch Brothers have hypnotized all the black brothers and sisters to do her bidding! They're paid stooges!

That's how campaigns self-destruct, when they take angry and aspiring constituencies for granted.

These two links say it better than I can:

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/20/bernie_sanders%E2%80%99_big_test_can_he_learn_from_his_netroots_nation_conflict_with_black_lives_matter_activists/

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

[merrily]

64. They purport to speak for him? Really? Or do they just speak?

Usually, speaking is all that's involved when someone tweets to defend a politician. Political speech.

[MADem]

65. I don't think Sanders wants a lot of the "speaking" some of his fans are pushing out.

It's not HELPING, you see.

You, too, can learn something at this link:

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

and this one:

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/20/bernie_sanders%E2%80%99_big_test_can_he_learn_from_his_netroots_nation_conflict_with_black_lives_matter_activists/

"Mutually - reinforcing self righteousness"--to quote the latter article--it's what's for dinner!

[merrily]

71. Ah, so YOU purport to speak for Sanders, to know what he wants, but not to defend him,

only to criticize his supporters. And my post to you had to do with a claim you made, not with them.

I am not on black twitter, nor am I a poster child for those who are. With that, I will leave this ugly thread.

[Puglover]

74. +1000!

You cut right to it.

[MADem]

75. What part of the phrase "I don't think" would lead you to conclude that I was expressing ANYTHING

other than MY (that's where the "I" is salient, you see) personal opinion (that's the 'think' bit, don't you know?). What a supposition you make! I never "purported" to speak for the man, ever!

If I were speaking for Senator Sanders, I would say "The Senator feels...." or "The Senator has said..." or "The Senator wants to make clear that ...."

It's obvious, from the way you have responded to the links I have offered to you, which express the heartfelt and sincere issues that many voters believe need addressing, and which you've dismissed by trying to make it about me, that you're one of the ones who isn't helping the Senator.

You don't have to "be on black twitter" to understand that this is a REAL PROBLEM. All you have to do is stop being defensive, read the links, and make an attempt to understand. Stop talking. Start HEARING. LISTENING. You are, in this thread, right here, a personification of the problem, with your hurt feelings and flouncing off--you couldn't have demonstrated the issue better, frankly:

And it seems like any time black people bring this up on Twitter, there's all these people who, I don't know, they're just sitting around searching his name on Twitter or something, they just come and get in your mentions and start harassing you, they start saying the same things over and over to you, like, "He marched with Dr. Martin Luther King," and, "He was at a sit-in," and they send you a picture of him at a sit-in from 1960-something. That's all well and good, and I'm not denigrating that work, but it's almost as if they're trying to say, "You shouldn't expect him to continue this" or, "Because he's done stuff in the past, you shouldn't question him now."

I thought it was happening to just a few people — apparently it's happening to a lot of us.

The thing about the Bernie Sanders fans is while they're very obtuse and they don't listen, they are more polite than the people who just call you the n-word or a racial slur or something. It's more like that passive-aggressive "We're on the same side, man!" where clearly they don't want you to talk about anything that their candidate can do better, but they do want you to just vote for him.

As far as fans ... I don't know, man. You're talking about hundreds of years of history of people who can kind of be very ... they can ignore a lot of voices if they don't sign up exactly with what they're saying. There will always be a struggle, even in progressive spaces, to have people who don't dismiss you for having a different goal than they do. You see the same thing with, like, immigration. A lot of black people who love President Obama don't care about immigration. Because it's like, "Not our problem!" The challenge is always how can you support each other without turning on each other? I don't know that the Sanders camp fans will learn that lesson. But it ain't going to stop people from wanting #BlackLivesMatter to be talked about, so they might as well let it go.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

[bvar22]

81. Busted.

Well done.

I don't believe I have seen a single post where any DUer claims to "speak for Bernie".
This was a baseless attack not supported by the facts.

[Tommymac]

10. Teh ignore button works wonders.

I used it on just 2 of the suspects and amazing how the Bernie threads have been cleaned up and only reasonable debate between real people who want information not propaganda is occurring in them now. A few vocal posters that were constantly hijacking the debate really were shouting down the majority and making the atmosphere toxic.

[Trajan]

102. Oh My Goodness ...

My ignore list is on fire ...

Sadly, for me at any rate, many I have enjoyed for years ... but; Lie about a candidate ? ... gratuitously insult their followers ? ... I apparently didn't really know many of them until now ...

Gone Baby Gone ...

I've been here 13 years, and I iggied 3 posters ... I now have ten times that in the last 3 weeks, and more going ...

I figure it this way - You wanna act like an ass and blatantly LIE about a candidate, or use them or their supporters as a personal punching bag?, then .. good bye and good riddance ... I didn't need liars as friends anyways ...

[Tommymac]

104. Know what you mean. Been here 11+ years - don't post much.

Sad how a few posters you thought you knew turn out to be real pieces of work.

My god, we are all on the same side too - even back in 2003/4 when it was hot and heavy between Dean and Kerry (pre scream) things never got this bad imho.

Anyway glad I had the courage to try the ignore thing - it has made reading GDP and GD threads fairly safe again. Amazing that in my case it was just 3 posters prolifically spamming the Bernie threads with such garbage.

[beam me up scottie]

11. They're not progressives.

And many of them don't care what the issue is, they post bullshit memes and flame bait ops because they think their candidate won't get burned.

The swift boating of Bernie began here months ago.

[passiveporcupine]

15. Yep...I've had it

I have to stop responding to these people. I know better, but I'm passionate about this primary and I'm letting them push my buttons. No more.

I'm done responding to Hillary supporters.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Good for you. Gotta pace yourself.

Don't allow them to drag you into the muck, stick to the facts and kick and rec the hell out of positive threads.

There are some good DUers who support Hillary, you just haven't seen them around here recently because they're not willing to participate in the flame fests.

Valid criticism is always welcome but I've seen very little of that from the opportunists.

[Skittles]

12. it's not so much a matter of who is "acceptable", but of being totally fed up

it's past the point of "something must be done" - it's something must be done NOW......why only certain people seem to be targeted is very questionable though

[cui bono]

20. Questionable, yet completely transparent. Especially with the new talking point:

"it doesn't matter what happened 50 years ago, it only matters what they are doing now".

I've seen that several times in the last couple days.

So then who cares who becomes president if their record means nothing? It's a bullshit talking point. One person I saw say it may be saying it out of anger, but I believe this whole attack on Sanders that has been going on since before the BLM incident is a calculated attempt to take him down on his strength. Swiftboating. Look at how rabid Hillary supporters keep going on about this issue with Bernie. Look at how those who are 'undeclared' in their support never go after Hillary about racial issues even though she ran an ugly race-baiting campaign against Obama. No wonder "the past doesn't matter" is the new talking point.

[Vattel]

29. That new talking point is so sad and pathetic one has to laugh.

As if Bernie marched with MLK once and then ignored civil rights for the next 50 years. You have to marvel at just how brazen some of these attacks on Bernie are.

[HooptieWagon]

47. "Past record doesn't matter"

... is from supporters of the candidate who's desparately trying to blow smoke over her past. LOL!

[bvar22]

82. Wait a minute.

When Hillary was the Senator from NY,
she courageously led the charge against Flag Burning and Cartoon Video Game Violence.
However, the destruction of Iraq and the continued bombing of innocent civilians is perfectly OK with her. In fact, she SUPPORTS and CheerLeads for the actual bloody violence of killing MILLIONS of REAL people in the most brutal and violent way ever invented by human beings.

I'm sure that when she is President, she will prioritize the needs of all Americans, and continue to confront such important and controversial issues.

[world wide wally]

17. I hope we don't miss the boat because of shortsightedness by some people

[dreamnightwind]

21. Corporatists, not progressives doing the attacking

but I rec'd because I otherwise agree with your sentiments, sickening to watch it.

I have 100% support for efforts to stop police violence and harrassment, and to end mass incarceration.

I have zero support for doing so by supporting corporate candidates who put up focus grouped front-ends to appease minorities yet will not lift one finger against the power structure to rein in the police/prison/military complex once they are in power.

[BainsBane]

22. No, it is not a pile on

Black Lives Matters protested to the presidential candidates at Netroots. Both O'Malley and Sanders were there, and neither handled the situation terribly well. Sanders supporters, however, decided to make the incident all about Sanders and themselves, because naturally nothing else could possibly matter. They decided to condemn BLM, demand apologizes, call them rude, thugs, and right-wing plants. Rather than simply understanding that candidates have minor stumbles along the way and then rebound, they decided to attack the protesters and in the process have done damage to their candidate and exposed themselves. Any fall back is entirely self-inflicted.

Another thing. Repeating the words progressive and leftist over and over again mean absolutely nothing, and when coupled with condemnation of activists protesting the epidemic of killings of African Americans are particularly empty. In fact, the more I see labels repeated with absolutely no substance while principles and issues are thrown overboard, the more hollow it seems.

[Number23]

23. Why do you keep bothering? Let these people think whatever the hamster that powers their brains tell

them. Do you really think that they are doing themselves or their candidate any favors? Do you think they are really trying to?

If ANYBODY can look at the #BLM collective and what they are trying to achieve and conclude that they are "not progressives" or are "Koch funded right wingers" then these are not the kind of people that anyone that even considers themselves to be on the fringe of the liberal movement should give even a second glance to.

You have black authors and academics with decades of history under their belts trying to explain how all of this looks to black people and they just flit off with their "fiddle dee dee!" We don't matter to these people, and to be honest, I am perfectly okay with that. We don't need them. They have no clout and have no interest in forming any real collaboration, despite the "We are the 99%!!11" that they spew on a regular basis. If EVER there as a chance for these people to prove that they genuinely give a shit about poor people, about minorities THIS WAS IT.

We don't need them.

[BainsBane]

24. You're right, of course

It is pointless.

[Number23]

25. They don't want us. We don't need them.

Works for me.

[merrily]

42. Jury results

On Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:48 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Why do you keep bothering? Let these people think whatever the hamster that powers their brains tell
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=467860

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Hampster powers their brain cells???? Can't we debate without calling each other stupid? This kind of talk is a personal attack. It's divisive and unnecessary.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 22, 2015, 09:59 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Supporters of a Democrat being insulted in several vile ways. This is not what DU should be about.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seems like an accurate statement to me.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

will post in the Sanders Group as an fyi

ETA: The post will probably be locked as OT, which it is.

[Agschmid]

45. Sorry, your tab is going to turn yellow again.

I know that bugs you.

But what's with the META callout OP you just posted in the Bernie Sanders group? Sort of seems like that's an SOP violation...

[merrily]

46. No, you don't know that. What you actually know is that you complained

about keeping an allegedly irrelevant conversation going too long and I responded to the effect that you had raised the allegedly irrelevant point and had continued posting about it, right up until your snark about how long it gone on.

So what's with misrespresenting what I posted then expecting me to answer to you about a post I made in a group?

[Agschmid]

48. It's META, thats not a mis-representation.

It was out of line to post it, in a safe haven where the people involved can't even respond.

I'm not going to alert, but I'm going to make damn sure you know how I feel about it.

[merrily]

49. Your yellow tab comment was misrepresentation

It was out of line to post it, in a safe haven where the people involved can't even respond.

Can you link me to posts of yours to that effect about posts in other groups?. Because every time I am in a few other groups, I see stuff that absolutely appalls me and I don't respond. Difference is, those kinds of posts are encouraged in other groups, but, as I said, in the Bernie Group my post will probably get locked.

And, by doing this, aren't you really trying to host the Bernie Group by proxy?

BTW, aren't your most recent posts to me call outs of me? I'm not going to alert, but I'm going to make damn sure you know how I feel about it.

[Agschmid]

50. .

Can you link me to posts of yours to that effect about posts in other groups?. Because every time I am in a few other groups, I see stuff that absolutely appalls me and I don't respond.

No, I'm not about to search for it.

BTW, aren't your posts to me call outs? I'm not going to alert, but I'm going to make damn sure you know how I feel about it.

Sure they are, but they are direct and civil. I'm not going into a protected group and calling you out where you cannot respond. There is a big difference, I am calling out what I feel is inappropriate right to you. Is that a callout? Probably. Is that meta? No. Is it dsruptive to DU as whole? Not likely.

[merrily]

52. Oh, please do search for at least a couple.

BTW, meta in a group is not a violation of the TOS. It's up to the group hosts. And something posted in a group should not be disruptive of DU as a whole anyway. You know what's disruptive? This dialogue.

This is my last post on this subject. I don't have to answer to you in a forum I trashed, but must visit for jury duty anyway, about a post I made in the Bernie group, from which you were blocked for doing exactly this kind of thing.

If a jury determines my post violates the TOS fine. If a host decides to lock the post and/or block me fine. But who are you to question my right to post something in the Bernie Group? Even Skinner doesn't interfere in groups.

Quo warranto?

[Agschmid]

54. Who am I?

A member of DU.

That's how this place works.

[merrily]

61. Um, no. The group hosts are in charge of challenging what gets posted in a group, not every

DUer who happens to feels like it in any forum they feel like.

If anything is disruptive, it's your thinking you have some kind of authority to call me out in a forum I trashed about a post that had nothing to do with you and was posted in a group from which you were blocked for this very same kind of disruption.

And no links, I see.

NOTE: Just in case anyone is puzzled as to what Agschmid is labeling a meta call out: I posted jury results in the group, the very same kind of jury results that get posted in all kinds of forums in DU several times daily, but removing anything that would have id'ed the poster.

The jury results I posted in the Sanders Group were the very same jury results I had already posted in GD to the poster who, unlike Agschmid, was actually involved. And, the jury results I had posted to the poster actually involved bore the message that I would also be posting the jury results in the Sanders Group. Contrary to Agschmid's claim, the poster could also have replied in the Sanders Group as she is not blocked there. . Therefore, nothing was sneaky or hidden, and nothing prevented the poster from having her say to her heart's content, in not one, but two places on the board. However, Agschmid was not able to post in that group, which should not have been a problem anyway since she was not involved.

[Agschmid]

63. Actually...

This is a community run/moderated board... Members sit on juries, members act as hosts, members serve on MIRT to block malicious intruders. And every DU member blocked or not has access to alert button on every post, there is a reason for that. Skinner/Elad/EarlG designed the system that way, they put thought behind that decision.

Like I mentioned up thread my post may have been a callout but it was directed to you, the person I was calling out. Again that is entirely different then posing a separate OP in a protected group about jury results in this thread, that's a pretty clear and substantial difference.

Furthermore it's a discussion board, and GD: Primaries is open to everyone so whether I was involved from the beginning or not I am now, another thing inherent to DU... We discuss, if something doesn't seem right to me would you rather I sat on my hands quietly and just dealt with it.

I hope someone would stand up for me...

Nothing I did was sneaky, shady, or mean. I was entirely civil to you in all my posts. My hands are clean here.

We are going to disagree and that's one of the great things about DU, we can and that's okay.

[merrily]

69. You did not get blocked from that group because of me. I had nothing to do with that.

I was not a host at that time. In addition, my computer was in the store being repaired, for about a week. So, if any evidence of your block was on the board, I missed it.

I have no idea why you went from being a host of the group to not being a host of that group. However, I did observe you you still acting as though you were a host of the Sanders Group after you had ceased being a host. Then, I saw you had been blocked. And here you are, still doing the very same thing, but now from an entirely different forum no less.

Yes, we have admins and juries and group hosts and forum hosts. That such a structure is in place is a clue that that is the structure to be used to challenge a post. It is not a clue that every DUer has a implied roving commission to challenge posts made in groups anywhere they feel like challenging them (even if they don't throw in a few misrepresentations while they are at it to make it sound worse).

I am sorry you do not see how disruptive this dialogue is, not to mention that it's a thread hijack in the bargain. The thread OP is not "let's discuss merrily's posting of jury results in the Sanders Group. In that vein, this is my last post on the subject. I trashed this forum the day it opened for good reason. I'm sorry they make jurors deal with alerts on posts in forums the jurors have trashed, which forces us to see the worst the forum we trashed has to offer.

[cui bono]

86. Can you please link me all the similar requests you've made to all the posters who have posted

all the meta OPs on the HRC group? I understand it will take some time since there have been so many. Just would like to know you are policing all sides.

Thanks!

[Agschmid]

93. No.

Who knew I wasn't allowed to have an opinion on a post in an open forum?

Should I just alert next time and get the post hidden? I thought actually attempting to have a discussion was a better move... Maybe I thought wrong?

[cui bono]

94. So it doesn't matter if they do it? That's the theme here on DU lately.

It's all about Sanders' supporters. They're mean, even though HRC supporters take things so far as to plan to email Sanders' campaign about people on DU. HRC supporters have taken to posting smears in protected groups so that Sanders cannot be properly defended and those get rec'd and applauded by others rather than asked to be deleted. So why do you not ask the same in those OPs?

I know you have read OPs in both groups so surely you know that the Sanders group has the most integrity by far when it comes to OPs it leaves up or asks to be deleted. It's plain as day just by looking at the OPs in both groups. So why ask that of a Sanders supporter if you don't ask it of HRC supporters?

Attacking the strength I supposed. But you know, in doing so hypocrisy is revealed.

[Agschmid]

103. It absolutely matters that they do it.

And they do, heck even the O'Malley people do it a bit, its primary season there is meta all over. Some of it is to be expected and as was so rightly pointed out before I'm not the DU Police it's not my job to stop meta but when I see it I have every right to comment on it.

I will take your feedback and will try to be more consistent about my actions.

I think one of the reasons it may seem like I call out fellow Sanders supporters more is because there are just more of us in general... In the last non official poll we were still over 90% of DU. Also I think many of the Hillary supporters have felt the brunt of hides/timeouts so they don't really need me to point out their posts are meta, etc.

I have been frustrated by this primary season and this really is my first, the last time around I was just reading and not participating. There are many people who in the past I have gotten along with who I no longer do, or who I have butted heads with recently. *This may seem like a callout, but it's not* this primary season I have had PM exchanges with both Autumn and William769 that I have wished hadn't quite gone the way they went, and apologize to both of them. I have seen members who I respected and who I even have become friends with on Facebook disappear because they have had enough of the vitriol, and I bet before its all done a few more will leave. Unfortunately this seems to be how primary season goes...

I really don't feel I'm hypocritical when it comes to this but you are entitled to your opinion.

[Agschmid]

44. Bernie hosts did the right thing and locked it, thanks.

[Number23]

77. Kind of makes you wonder why it was worthy of even being posted in the exalted Bernie Sanders

Group in the first place. The same group that so many Sanders SUPPORTERS here won't go into.

Was it my truthful statement that regular black folks as well as black academics and historians are trying to explain to these people how damaging their behavior is and they aren't listening?

Was it my honest statement that ANYONE that can look at #BLM and declare them "right wingers" or "swiftboaters" is someone so totally lost from reality, decency and honesty that they aren't worth listening to? Saying #BLM are right wingers" is the equivalent of someone waving a flag that says "I AM HOSTILE TO MINORITIES AND FIND THEIR ISSUES UNIMPORTANT." And yet, these are the people that some here want to pretend are the real progressives while slamming poor people and minorities for fighting for their rights?

Or was it my truthful statement that we don't need them? Because we don't. And I am so thankful for that.

[MADem]

72. Indeed. Like this guy is a paid right winger....

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9005855/black-twitter-bernie-sanders

I'm just flummoxed at this double-down attitude. It makes no darn sense.

[Number23]

76. White progressives claim ownership to the word progressive now. And apparently everyone that doesn't

kow tow to their inane, simple minded and narrow definition is the enemy.

If that is the case, I think they better be prepared to have a veritable slew of enemies. Black people aren't going to stop talking. If they want to work with us, fine. If not, I don't think any of us will lose a minute's sleep.

[MADem]

78. Ain't that the truth!

I think, with some of them who are stuck on transmit and just don't know how to take their thumb off the button and do some receiving, they are going to find out that they are their own worst enemies.

They're the same crew who always played the "You have to EARN my vote!!!!" card--and now they're pissed to learn there's more than one of those in the deck!

[Cha]

108. That's taking victimhood to a whole new level of insane accusations. Here's

another one that's so precious..

"The anti-Bernie folks are not progressives."

We're either with them.. OR.. we're not Progressive.. we must be regressive, no? No.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It sure does Not make sense to those who are behind #BlackLivesMatter and admire their passion, energy, and focus for what truly matters.. and wish them Victory in their Long and Arduous Uphill Battle.

And, anything we Can Do to Help~

[marble falls]

59. Point out one quote where either Sanders or O'Malley said BLM is "rude, thugs, and right-wing plant"

Bernie has said explicitly and many times - "Black lives matter!"

[BainsBane]

73. I didn't say they did

But some of Sanders supporters have responded that way.

[democrank]

26. The anti-Bernie folks are not progressives.

Far from it.

[PeteSelman]

28. Politics is a very dirty game.

And you know damn well who's behind this horseshit.

[GoneFishin]

30. Their is a very real race problem. But it is being successfully exploited by the right wing of the

party.

They have got to be laughing their asses off.

[99Forever]

31. It's dirty campaigning by the dirty campaigners.

It's their same old MO. They have just assured at least one less vote for their candidate, should they prevail.

[Autumn]

32. Good post Armstead. Thank you

I'm not sure what the heck is going on. Bernie is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. You read some of these posts and you would think that they consider him to be worse than Dick fucking Cheney.

[JoePhilly]

33. Its not about Bernie.

You are not listening to DU's African American members.

The concern that is being raised is about the difference between economic inequality and social justice. And none of the candidates has been making that distinction clearly. None of them.

BLM heckled Obama back in March on this issue as well. And if you dare to look, you will find DU members raising concerns about this distinction back in March, April, and May. Some even pointed out that Bernie's focus on economic equality highlights the fact that he's not pushing the social issue side. In those early posts, this is not raised as a huge issue, but more as a blindspot, that could be addressed. Those posts are dismissed.

BLM used Bernie, and O'Malley, and their NRN appearance to raise the issue again. They want it to be a formal part of the agenda in 2016. That's what they want.

What Bernie or O'Malley have done in the past is irrelevant to that goal. Its not about what they have done, but what they plan to do on that specific issue.

Its not about Bernie. Bernie is a bright guy, and as you correctly note, given his past, he should have little problem modifying his message.

Bernie's real problem now is a small subset of his loudest and angriest supporters who now think they get to tell African Americans when and where to protest. In post after post on DU, they dismiss the concerns of African Americans. Claim this is a conspiracy. Some kind of attack on Bernie. And by dismissing these concerns, their dismissal hurts Bernie.

The only damage being done to Bernie is being done by his supporters, by dismissing this concern of the African American community. He can, and probably will, adjust his message.

Right after this all started, and the first threads on the protest at NRN appeared I read them and in one of those, one of our African American friends said (paraphrased) ...

"This is not about Bernie. If you are white and you think you know what's happening here, stop and listen. And then listen some more. And then, when you are sure you get it, listen some more."

Reading this caused me to not post anything in any of those original threads. And I just read them end to end. And after doing that for multiple days, I started to see what was happening.

Its not about Bernie. Its about a community of people, African Americans, who've had their issues DISMISSED over and over. They say that social justice is not the same as economic justice, and white liberals say "Oh, yes it is".

Bernie's supporters, and now your OP do the same thing. You are not listening to them. You see this as being about Bernie because he's your guy. Its not about Bernie.

But Bernie's loudest and angriest supporters are making it about him. They are screaming at the top of their lungs about his record, and using that record to DISMISS the larger concern that is being raised.

Having their concerns be DISMISSED is at the heart of this. And you are doing it.

Its not about Bernie. You are not listening.

Go back to the day of the protest and read what DU's African Americans members wrote in the many OPs that appeared. Keep reading. Read what some of them are writing in this thread. Their message is pretty consistent.

Or don't. Dismiss them.

[snpsmom]

34. Please consider making this an OP

It hits ALL the marks.

[FSogol]

35. +1 n/t

[Andy823]

37. Excellent post

I agree with the other poster, this should be in its own thread.

[myrna minx]

43. I'm a Bernie supporter and I agree with you.

[Bobbie Jo]

51. +1000000

What is so difficult about this concept?

Willful disregard in the extreme.

[Armstead]

53. I can only speak for myself but...

Here's what upsets me.

I did have a visceral reaction watching that Netrroots debacle. And seeing variations of that on DU amplified that feeling.

The BLM protestors had good points to make. But shouting down and refusing to actually DISCUSS their grievances with Sanders (and O'Malley) and simply shouting slogans simply to embarrass them was not the way to go about raising them.

On a personal level, I was distressed because Bernie has actually brought a vital core issue into the mainstream political debate, that most politicians (including Democrats) have also been ignoring or actively abetting for too long.

Simply put, that is the systemic destruction of economic democracy by the obscene concentration of wealth and power -- which is damaging the fundamental economic situation and quality of life of everyone who is not in the small privileged elite and upper echlons of the corporate oligarchgy.

Just as African Americans have felt ignored and dismissed for a long time, those who believe that we have been heading towards an economic train wreck since the 1970's are frustrated. We were raising the red flags back since the 80's over the the handover of the country to Corporate Oligarchs and Wall St. and the destruction of opportunity for everyone else.

And we took some solace in the fact that finally a candidate has at least brought that issue in to the mainstream Presidential campaigns.

And to see that glimmer of recognition within the political system get muddied and diluted and distracted from angered and frustrated me.

OF COURSE if you yell at someone, and basically tell them they will never understand the truth, it's going raise people's hackles. Which sets up a spiral of mutual defensiveness.

That is not being dismissive. It's legitimate frustration that everytime we seem to get a foothold, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

It also reflects a larger pattern This is the conflict du jour. It's the same pattern that goes on among supporters of many positions, and among supporters of different candidates on the left half of the spectrum.

Yes there are many specific issues that are important -- race, the environment, women's issues, gay rights, etc. Ultimately they are all connected, because they boil down to who has the power to make decisions and determine the destiny of the whole population and political system.

But instead of good-faith efforts to discuss and unpack all of the nuances of differences, and their connections, the dialogue too often degenerates into simplistic animosity and hostility among people who should basically be allies.

[JoePhilly]

62. If Bernie supporters want Bernie to win the primary ...

... they'll need to figure out that they absolutely need the African American community to get to know Bernie, and to then come to prefer him over Hillary.

It is that simple.

In a few threads, and in another stand-alone OP, one of our AA members has posted a set of pictures of dead African Americans. People who are dead who should not be dead.

That's why they are angry. That is why they are yelling. They are yelling at everyone, not just Bernie.

If you try to minimize their concerns, or their pain, or start talking about how their concerns are really just part of some longer list, my prediction is that they will tune you out, and tune Bernie out too.

A better approach would be to listen to what these folks are saying, come to understand why they are yelling (because they've been getting DISMISSED forever), and then ensure your message does not bury their concerns in a laundry list.

Bernie supporters have a choice. They can dismiss these people, or honestly listen to them.

What I find with a segment of the Bernie folks is that they do not understand that politics is a numbers game.

They call Hillary supporters names and expect those people to move over to Bernie. They need LOTS AND LOTS of those folks to move to Bernie, and calling them names won't do it. But they don't get it.

Same thing is happening here.

[bvar22]

83. ...and the reverse is also True.

I'm sure that when Hillary is President,
she will stop the Violence and Racism in America,
but continue to support the continued killing of innocents in the Middle East.

[JoePhilly]

85. Nowhere did I suggest she would be able to stop violence and racism in the US.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim she could.

And I'm not sure what our military involvement in the ME has to do with the relationship between economic inequality and social justice ...unless you were trying to show that you too can quickly dismiss discussion of that particular distinction, and pivot directly to some other topic, within a single sentence.

If so, well done.

[bvar22]

111. No.

But slinging shit, and then complaining when you get some on yourself
is funny.

[sheshe2]

91. Hey Joe.

In a few threads, and in another stand-alone OP, one of our AA members has posted a set of pictures of dead African Americans. People who are dead who should not be dead.

That's why they are angry. That is why they are yelling. They are yelling at everyone, not just Bernie.

^^^^This^^^^

And more.

[BainsBane]

101. What is economic democracy?

When has such a thing ever existed? We live under capitalism. Surely Bernie knows that. He has read Marx. Does he actually speak about "economic democracy"?

But instead of good-faith efforts to discuss and unpack all of the nuances of differences, and their connections, the dialogue too often degenerates into simplistic animosity and hostility among people who should basically be allies.

What do you think your OP is? I think this episode has clearly revealed that many so-called progressives are not allies to Black Lives Matter. Some have showed great contempt for the movement and their cause. To claim it is all connected to economics misses the point. It is not poor white people being killed in huge numbers--it is black people, poor and middle-class. No amount of money makes them safe. If you are an ally, you need to listen to their concerns. For you, this all seems to be about Sanders, as though nothing else matters. That is, IMO, a serious problem.

[Agschmid]

60. Good post!

[lovemydog]

99. Excellent observations, JoePhilly.

Every now and then I read a post here that blows me away with its insight. Today it is this thoughtful post. Thank you. You've expressed how I've felt for quite some time. Have a good evening, sir.

[JoePhilly]

109. Much appreciated. nt

[Cha]

107. "Its not about Bernie." Thank you so much for this, JoePhilly!! they're making bernie the victim

at their own peril.

[JoePhilly]

110. Thanks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. If people want to win people's hearts and minds maybe they shouldn't accuse them of "race nagging."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251467790#post3

[NCTraveler]

39. Unfortunatley, O'Malley isn't getting much attention.

So it appears that the most accomplished progressive isn't getting piled on.

[geek tragedy]

56. No, it's not. Stop being so damn defensive and hyperbolic.

Issue-oriented activists protested to draw attention to their cause.

It's not a personal reflection on Bernie.

At the same time, Bernie has to go out and earn their vote. He has to go out and ask for, and tell them what he's going to do, and to show that he gets where they're coming from.

No one is going to give this to Bernie.

[oldandhappy]

57. My fantasy--

All that negative energy gets used to take back the House and Senate as well as electing a president. Smile.

[Jester Messiah]

58. I was perfectly happy hating Republicans and everything they stand for...

The theocratization of America, the rampant militarism and worship of authority, the bigotry, the hypocrisy...

But now this place has me starting to hate my fellow Democrats as well, perhaps more. At least I never expected anything more from the Republicans than that they would be slimeballs. I expected better from Democrats.

Maybe I need a break. Maybe I just need to leave. Focus on living my life, the things that bring me joy, and just leave politics for the new breed.

[geek tragedy]

84. if you find yourself hating black activists and their allies more than Republicans, this definitely

is not the place for you.

You should probably go somewhere else to grouse about black folks not knowing their place.

[DonCoquixote]

67. And no heat

for a certain candidate who, with her Husband blew every damned dog whistle there was, from "we got mugged" to "he's not a Muslim as far as I Know."

Not one for the SOB who NOW does his crocodile tear apology for helping make American the Prison capitol of the world

and before people do the obligatory thought killer "Hillary is not her husband", I say two things:

1) Then stop using her tenure as first lady to pad her resume
2) the perhaps she can actually REFUTE her husband once in a while.

I am not denying Sanders should not have planned better. Hell, he should have gone on the Tavis Smiley show and courted Cornell West at the very least. However, I am really getting sick and tied of Hillary only saying something after the fact, and saying the safest stuff possible. Is she going to govern the way she runs a campaign, if so, we are in deep, because she will basically be, at best, a Guillver tied down by a bunch of the Lilliput lobbyist and Rockefeller Republicans.

[NCTraveler]

79. I don't see a pile on at all.

Shit, O'Malley, by far the most accomplished progressive of the bunch, barely gets a mention around these parts.

[JEB]

80. Kochs and their minions and apologists are the enemy. Not Bernie. eom

[BainsBane]

97. Are you calling Black Lives Matters minions to the Kochs?

[Doctor_J]

89. There arn't any liberals bashing Sanders

Just DINOs, PUMAs, and cultists. If they claim to be liberals, they're lying

[BainsBane]

100. "Bashing"

As in daring to protest the epidemic of police killings of black people? Or daring to believe all human beings are equal and that one politician and his supporters are not superior to the rest of humanity? Are those the "lies" you are condemning? Liberal isn't a set of ideas or principles. It's all about reverence for a single man, a man who specifically says he is not a liberal himself. My, I had no idea liberal had become some an empty word. And what becomes of American liberalism after Sanders is no longer with us? Does it disappear with him, since it's only purpose is to promote his career? I suppose when people so easily throw aside principle, labels become especially important to them. Or perhaps it isn't an abdication of principle. Perhaps people are simply revealing who they always have been.

What liberal issues do you care about? I don't believe I've ever seen you discuss issues. I've seen you express hostility toward segments of the American population, including the Democratic Party and its leaders, with some frequency, but I don't recall anything else. Is there any issue you would decide matters more than a career of a single man?

[Trajan]

105. You conflate disagreeing with Bernie's detractors with being racist ..

It is intentional ...

It is pernicious ...

It is EXACTLY how Hillary supporters have purposely tried to hitch their wagons to the unfortunate, intolerable situation that created BLM, and try to hang it around Bernie's AND O'Malley's necks .... Accuse Bernie of racism ? ... Hah ... silly ...

It's actually about political expediency ... bare knuckle politics ... It's been going on since before the NRN debacle ...

I am long past tired of it ...

[BainsBane]

106. You keep pretending this is all about Hillary and Sanders

and make it as small and irrelevant as possible. In the meantime, you miss the entire point: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251467165

I am sick of people caring about nothing but politicians--which is to care about absolutely nothing. It is not principle. It's a complete abdication of principles and issues for personalities. Human lives are at stake, and you dismiss the seriousness of the protesting by pretending everything is some Clintonian plot to upset your political hero. It isn't. There are issues that actually matter in this country, even if you don't want to pay attention to them.


I didn't call anyone racist, and that your reaction to any criticism is to turn to that shows how little you even want to understand. Firstly, that particular post was responding to a specific poster who I have seen post particular things in the past. I addressed the Netroots issue and the OP elsewhere in the thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=467832 That incident at Netroots wasn't about Sanders. It was about black lives, but some of his supporters simply cannot imagine that anything but themselves and Sanders could possibly matter, so they took to Twitter and brought this whole shit storm on themselves. They may well have dealt a lethal blow to his candidacy, and they have no one but themselves to blame. I've had it with empty politics of personality. I do not give even the slightest shit about your or anyone else's assessment of members of the political elite.

[postatomic]

90. We all see what we want to see

To support our own ideology. Threads like this do nothing other than fuel fires. I don't see any "piling on" but maybe that's because it's fairly easy to see when something is nothing more than a person upset that they had their Ice Cream Cone taken. It's also very disingenuous to make the assumption that a progressive, whatever the fuck that means these days, is only a progressive if they support a particular candidate.

I find the sociology of all this quite interesting. It's like watching a huge train wreck in slow motion.

[BainsBane]

98. Spot on

It's also very disingenuous to make the assumption that a progressive, whatever the fuck that means these days, is only a progressive if they support a particular candidate.

It's essentially saying anyone who isn't like them in every way isn't progressive. Not only that, the views of others are so illegitimate that they are dismissed as corporate plants. I don't see anything leftist about excluding the majority of the population from a say in government or the national dialog, and I view the entire ethos that does as authoritarian and anti-egalitarian.

Not only that, it suggests that principle and cause means nothing compared to reverence for a member of the political elite. In what conceivable way does that translate to progressive or leftist?

[WillyT]

92. Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!!