Question Two: Does Bernie's platform and history support black people?

[Fearless]

As we can see from the previous poll, obviously Bernie Sanders is not racist in the eyes of DUers.

(http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251466009)

Question Two:

Do you believe that Bernie's platform and voting/speaking history shows that he cares about and supports black people (and all minorities)?

43 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes.
	41 (95%)
	No.
	2 (5%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[LWolf]

1. Bravenak:

To open dialogue in a constructive way, can you please help me understand why you think Sanders' platform and history do not support PoC?

[bravenak]

5. Downthread.

[luvspeas]

2. depends on how you say it, part 2...

Do you believe? That Bernie's platform! And voting/speaking history. Shows that he cares about and supports black people and all minorities?

Do you believe that Bernie's platform? And voting/speaking history shows that. He cares. About! And support's black, people. And all minorities?

Do you believe that Bernie's platform and voting/speaking history shows that? He cares about and supports black. People and all, minorities.

[Fearless]

4. Much to my delight I have taken to reading your post

In the voice of William Shatner.

[luvspeas]

8. thenk you, no! thenk you! not at all! most indubidibly!

Part one is equally stupid:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=466085

[KittyWampus]

71. with bongos

[bravenak]

3. He views everthing through an economic lens.

We say our sons are in prison he says 'jobs for youths!' Dude, they are in jail because the system targets black people, not because they were on the stoop drinking Cisco. We say our kids are dying, we get, college for all. How dead kids gonna go to college? And how kids with daddy in prison and mom working 3 job gonna find time to study while attending a shitty school in the hood, succed enough to excell in college?
And what he gon do about this racist drug war? The all white juries and the mostly white prosecutors who love to 'make an example' out of our men and give our extreme sentences to us? We ain't heard what we need t hear to give him support yet.

[Fearless]

6. Would you say that

Hillary speaks of more social responses to these injustices and Bernie speaks to more economic ones?

[bravenak]

9. Hillary spends more time with black people so she knows better than to pivot to economics

when discussing race issues. She hires black people. Goes to their churches and eats with them. I feel more comfortable with person who is not afraid to kick it. Hillary tries hard to get it and she fucks up but she doesn't blame us when she's tone deaf, she corrects herself. Please don't make me say anything else nice about that woman.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Sometimes you can learn more about people by hanging around them than reading a bunch of books

eom

[bravenak]

29. True. Here I go being all pro Hillary. :(

[JI7]

57. this is the same reason she is popular among gays

And other minorities and immigrants.

It's not that they see her as some great top fighter for their causes. Most will say they don't think that.

But she is seen as more being connected with all of these communities on a personal level.

The thing with obama was that he was able to do this also and that's why he was able to win against her.

[bravenak]

58. She takes time out for everybody. It helps alot.

[London Lover Man]

75. No she doesn't. Welfare reform.

Hillary should NOT have supported the welfare reform, and she continued to support it up until she "evolved" (other words, changed her mind)

Bernie's long activism and history shows that he has always been for PoC. I'm surprised at you for dropping your support for Bernie. I don't think you ever had a solid support in the first place.

And must not forget her 2008 dog whistles. She is repeating the same pattern this year.

[bravenak]

78. She should not have. But she still know how to connect and her supporters are nice to black people.

[London Lover Man]

79. So is Bernie and his supporters

So what's the problem

[bravenak]

81. No. Many of his supporters have spent the past few days attacking black folks.

[KamaAina]

93. She was a Senator from New York.

He is a Senator from Vermont.

There are many, many more African Americans in New York than in Vermont.

[bravenak]

135. This is why I keep saying 'Bernie needs to hire some black people'. It would help.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

42. I would say Hillary is racist as fuck! However, Bernie doesn't seem to understand racism and would

rather deflect to economic/class and not address the underlying issue that is literally KILLING black people!

[Ken Burch]

167. What issue do you see him refusing to address? Bernie has never dismissed police racism as an issue

Last edited Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Racism isn't as simple as hate for hate's sake-if it was just that, it wouldn't still exist.

[Snotcicles]

10. I'm more impressed with his solution and results than the way he packages them. nt

[bravenak]

11. Good for you. I guess he'll win without us who are not exactly like you. You're BETTER.

[Snotcicles]

14. You and your opinions are irrelevant to me. nt

[bravenak]

16. Then why are you bothering me?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. Maybe your interlocutor will get "The Invisible Man" for his or her birthday.

eom

[bravenak]

31. They come to bug me just to say they don't care what I think. Sigh.

It's harass a black person week. Not even black history month yet and here comes the trollin.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. As an ambassador for the white race all I can say is most of us don't roll like that./nt

[bravenak]

33. I know. These are special snowflakes.

[freshwest]

169. Um, I was thinking of Lewis Black's 'special snowflakes,' but is this the new thing?

Pile - "Special Snowflakes"

Mornings come with birds and kids 

Talking to themselves for some reason

And wrists can vibrate at a comfortable rate 
to get you to sleep or keep you from it 



He wears that hole in his shoe with real grace

And if he wears it right he 
just might have a leg up on everyone 
bet it'd feel so good. 

They'd all watch him tie those gold laces 

And they become things that he can't stop tying 


Becoming grateful and bitter for his brand new handicap and

Holding the ropes that he'd been thrust upon

Can't get his hands off his feet to enjoy the walk 

Now it's tough to tell if ever he was real

Just knows the crunch of his new boots crushes
special snowflakes 



Choke the evil out

Smoke"
Stroke"
Choke"



it's satisfied 

by removing chunks of dead skin 
it turns it on the same way

mmmm mmmm mmmm



couldn't keep a straight face staring at it 

it satisfies 

it turns me on 



With that mirror you forced yourself to stare 

And you stink of the holiness they soaked you in

It ends up driving you bored and drinking you numb 

So special for a minute though



He wears that hole in his shoe with the same face 

And if he wears it right he

just might have to keep that leg up on everyone

it feels so good. 

They'd all watch him tie those gold laces

And they become things that he can't stop tying 


Gracefully bitter for that old handicap and

Gripping the ropes that he holds himself on

Feet paraded on high as his hands take the walk 

Tough to tell if ever he was real 
Just knows the crunch of those old boots keeps him a special snowflake

The video's cover is what looks like a woman without clothes bending over an airbrushed ass. And above that is a turkey. It sounds like a keyboard warrior...

[bravenak]

89. Look at you, that is repulsive. I might alert.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. It would never get hid with our current hury system.

I am glad people are showing their true selves

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. Being a man means you are never too big to say you were wrong.

eom

[bravenak]

99. Hidden! DU is better than we think! Thank you jury!!

[okasha]

142. And that is one of the most specialist.

[bravenak]

143. Gah!!! No more this stuff. I wish it stop soon. Ahhhh!!!

[stevenleser]

174. Obama supporters have dealt with B.S. about him for 6+ years and some Bernie supporters

can't take him being challenged the little bit he has for the few weeks he has announced without blowing a gasket.

It's really something to watch.

[Ken Burch]

146. He deserved to get that post hidden.

No excuse for that kind of talk.

[bravenak]

148. Silly season and a few not quite real supporters being loud and drowing out all the good stuff.

[freshwest]

173. Online trolling and real life trolling below:

Know it makes you wreary. I can walk away from real life trolls. But you can't. Sorry, bravenak.

[Cha]

103. Unreal.. so glad you're on here, bravenak.. need I say .. your opinions are very relevant to

anyone who cares about #BlackLivesMatter?

[bravenak]

104. Thank you.

They are acting like children today.

[Cha]

110. You're too kind.. I think they're acting like..

Well, I can't really say what I think, can I? Unless I want to get a hide.. and it's not worth it.

Enough to say.. It's not #BlackLivesMatter who "shot themselves in the foot".. They are hurting BS more than they could ever know.

The irony is they think they're protecting him with their way beyond rudeness against the Black Community.

Like Cali Democrat said on another thread.. ".. you can't make this shit up"

[Glassunion]

132. Well... This will go down as the longest just deliberation ever... Results

8:33 PM
Automated Message
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Tue Jul 21, 2015, 06:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Thank you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=466781

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This person has been trying all day; for the past couple of days actually, to bait people into fights. Jurors, please look not only at this post, but others w/in the thread. I think you will see what I mean. Also, fyi- I am an observer, not a participant in this thread---Just sick of seeing this endless rude, and disruptive behavior. Thanks in advance.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 21, 2015, 07:33 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Voting to leave. I do not see how this post is against the DU rules.

- Glassunion
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not worthy of a hide.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not a TOS violation.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
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Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
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[bravenak]

133. Wow. Jesus.

[ismnotwasm]

154. He's trying to be relevant.

Or something

[bravenak]

155. Gah! So random.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. That was a snotty thing to say....

You and your opinions are irrelevant to me. nt

That was a snotty thing to say....

[Bobbie Jo]

41. Well isn't that just par for the course

I suspect that this attitude toward POC and their concerns is why we're having this particular discussion in the first place.

To that I say, no shit.

[BooScout]

47. Ummmmmm

[Number23]

117. HERE IT IS, FOLKS!! ***RIGHT HERE***

So that when the inevitable "I didn't see any Sanders supporters tell black people they were irrelevant/call black people thugs/say #BLM was dead to me" gets going over the next few weeks -- and we ALL know folks here will be doing the "huh? What? I saw NOTHINK!1" game here soon -- here is one glorious example of someone doing just that right here!

Thanks for keeping it real!

[Major Nikon]

145. Results...

On Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:26 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

You and your opinions are irrelevant to me. nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=466278

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Insulting and a personal attack

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 21, 2015, 10:35 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's less of a personal attack than the object of the reply. I suspect the alerter is attempting to prove the golden BB theory. This really needs to go 0-7.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not a personal attack, a statement that one poster isn't interested in the opinions of another. Certainly have seen this many times on DU so no, not hide worthy.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Please
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[arcane1]

21. That's not over the top at all n/t

[bravenak]

24. After 17000 rude condescending comments from bernie supporters I'm not in the mood for bullshit.

[okasha]

144. You're right.

It's slime covered rock-fucking-bottom.

[Renew Deal]

83. What results can you point to since he was in congress?

[Snotcicles]

126. I just got home and logged on. My Post button was all lit up

when I went to check it, nothing came up.
So I must assume they are someone who I have on ignore.
Handy little pal, that ignore tool is. Life is good.
So if I'm not responding. Have a good life.

[LWolf]

12. So,

in another thread this morning I posted this:

I also would like to continue listening, and hope that some will continue to communicate to any with open ears and minds. Be patient with me. Explain to me what I'm not getting. I'm not your enemy, and want to stand with you against the real enemy when needed.

I THINK I'm hearing that PoC want racial justice to be a top priority, not only a facet of economic justice. Because while racial injustice has always been with us, it feels like (to this white woman) those injustices have begun to increase again, to be more public, to be legitimized by tptb.

I THINK that some of what I'm hearing is not just a demand for justice, but the anger and bitterness fueling that demand. I think I'm hearing that there is a growing determination not to push injustices under the rug, ever again. I support that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=466228

Am I getting it? If not, keep talking.

[bravenak]

13. Pretty much. His message is not for us.

I think he can get things straight.

[LWolf]

15. Thank you. nt

[bravenak]

19. De nada.

[jeff47]

87. Why were his previous comments on it not good enough?

Sanders has talked about more than economics, and has done so throughout this campaign. Were they not good enough, or were they not being heard? Or was it something else?

Why are his previous acts, like speaking against the "tough on crime" wave in the 90s that ramped this into overdrive not good enough?

[bravenak]

91. He needs to spend time with black people. His message was crafted for people like you, not me.

[jeff47]

94. So, a sort of "Just doesn't sound right" kind of thing?

or is it something else?

[bravenak]

100. Kinda. Yes. Like a let us tell you what we need thing.

He seems to be responding to the message well today. Looking forward, i hope his supporters follow suit.

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Thank you, Bravenak

You're a great voice on DU for African Americans.

[bravenak]

18. Thank you!!!

My patience is thin but I try.

[Cali_Democrat]

20. Keep in mind...

DU is overwhelmingly white.

Expect much of it to go right over their heads!

[bravenak]

22. I know. But the ones who get it really get it good.

The clueless. God save me from the clueless.

[Cali_Democrat]

23. Yep...some definitely get it...

others are just clueless.

[Anansi1171]

90. The best, really!-nt

[Humanist_Activist]

34. Do you have evidence to support your assertions? You seem to think he can't walk and chew...

bubble gum at the same time. Not to mention that most of the issues you brought up he, as President, would have little power to change outside of a bully pulpit and possibly increasing DOJ oversight where it would be applicable, which is limited. Presidents aren't dictators, they have little control over most of the criminal justice system, which is run by the state and local jurisdictions.

Not to mention here's an example of some of his positions:

On the drug war:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Bernie_Sanders_Drugs.htm

Actually, why not look at his stances and judge for yourself:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Bernie_Sanders.htm

[bravenak]

35. Have you paid attention AT ALL the last few days? If I get one more angry condescending lecture

From a Sanders supporters I will fucking scream. Hundreds of lectures from people who seem to think I CANNOT FUCKING READ. Telling me to READ HIS RECORD! HE'S DONE SO MUC FOR YOU PEOPLE!!! HE'S YOUR LAST CHANCE!!!

I have read all of that shit and it has been tossec at me all extra condecendingly and paternalistically for SEVERAL DAYS. Over and over and over and over with the fucking links and marching with MLK shit. I KNOW!! I KNOW HIS DAMN RECORD!!!

Bunch of bernie bullies bullying me. Jesus H Christ. Just HAVE TO correct us black folks and let us know how stupid we are for not feeling the Bern. I'm Berned out!

[Humanist_Activist]

37. If you know his damn record, stop misrepresenting it. Is that too much to ask? n/t

[bravenak]

38. Stop condescending to me. I am not a damn child. I misrepresent nothing.

He is not speaking our language and never will if his supporters keep attacking every black person they can find.

[Humanist_Activist]

39. Where is the attack? Indeed, where is the condescension? In fact, where is the evidence that...

his supporters are attacking every black person they can find? Or are you making that up?

[bravenak]

43. Lecturing me on his record like I never knew.

Do you know how many times I have been sent that link and told in a nasty way to CHECK HIS RECORD? It's a fucking meme now.

Now as far as his supporters attacking every black person they can find on the internet... Check the twitter of Imani Gandy and check DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995434#post34

Search berniesoblack. Then read the threads I've posted in. CHECK MY POST RECORD!!! It's there.

This morning Imani asked how the bullying black people into supporting is going. She has gotten HUNDREDS of angry white liberal tweets from sanders fans. We all have. Black america is innundated with condescending paternalistic posts where white people shamelessly try to school black people on how to protest right and on MLK. Been going on and on to th piint that I stopped supporting Bernie. See, I supported him because I KNOW HIS RECORD. But after all the chastising and anger and vitriol towards black protestors calling them thugs, lee atwater plants, useful idiots, and all of the Miss Millie wailing, fuck that. I'm damn near ready to get a no bernie no never avatar.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. Going by your post on this thread, I honestly thought you didn't know, I haven't been in...

GD: Primaries that long, I was avoiding it, remembering, quite distinctly, the wars that were waged last time between, in particular, Obama v. Hillary.

[bravenak]

51. Oh. Well okay. We all know by now, fyi.

[HFRN]

113. take a good look at his record

I think you'll like what you see

[Fozzledick]

129. Where's Jaime Lanister when we need him?

Seriously though, if you have read Bernie's record then why do you keep saying such nasty things about him? It seems like you're deliberately ignoring where his position has been all along.

[bravenak]

131. I like Bernie just fine.

[John Poet]

147. Glad I never commented on this on Twitter....

Sounds like it's a "broken record".....

[bravenak]

149. Hee hee hee! You did good. Stay out of the fray.

I warned folks not to bother black twitter. Alot of those people have masters degrees in Black Studies, history, etc.
They posted the same info about a bajillion times. Lol! I hope it over.

[stevenleser]

175. Sorry about that hidden thread. You did not deserve that.

[BainsBane]

52. His record includes his reaction at Net roots

and his cancelling of events afterward. It includes his refusal to understand that racism acts as a force onto itself, that it is not entirely subsumed to economic matters. You seem to think marching 50 yrs ago is enough. It is not. It does nothing to address issues of racism today. There is a reason his supporters are overwhelmingly white, and I would hazard to say not by in large poor.

[Humanist_Activist]

66. OK, this I don't understand, why should it be race vs. economics, aren't they all connected anyways?

And I don't mean subsumed, you have depressed economic areas that are that way because of racism. Are we to deny that redlining exists, or food deserts, de facto segregation, defunding public education, etc.? Are we not supposed to point out that these issues disproportionately affect the African-American community?

You seem to think that Bernie Sanders civil rights activities stopped 50 years ago, when that is blatantly untrue.

Black lives matter, and that includes not only making sure black people are protected from injustice in the courts and law enforcement, but also to make sure we all help increase the quality of their lives. Its all connected, and I would even say that you can't have civil rights without equal opportunity as well.

To give a starker example, I live in St. Louis, above the Delmar divide(North City), many neighborhoods wouldn't look out of place in a post-apocalyptic movie like Mad Max, this is in a major city, entire blocks are abandoned, houses and buildings collapsing, and is this happening on the white side of town? Fuck no, its on the mostly segregated black side. Its so bad that much of North Side is suffering from Black Flight into North County areas and cities like Ferguson.

Now, its not all doom and gloom, but much of it still is, there are several people and groups fighting to preserve what we can and rebuild that which is lost, to try to build a city that's truly integrated rather than with such sharp dividing lines. A city that invests in its people rather than abandoning entire neighborhoods because the residents happen to be mostly majority black.

Recently, St. Louis city barely passed a citizen oversight panel over the police department, its a toothless board that can't do much, the day they voted on it, a "suspicious" package was left outside City Hall, prompting a bomb scare. I'm normally not conspiracy minded, but that seems far too suspicious to me.

The thing is that, the President can do more regarding employment, community investment, housing, and education than law enforcement or racism in general. The fact is that federal aid in economic issues should and will disproportionately benefit the black community. This should go hand in hand with local advocacy for civilian oversight boards(with teeth) that properly represent communities the police are supposed to police. More community involvement with law enforcement, independent offices for prosecution, and other reforms. But, and this is key, no President has jurisdiction over any of this on the local or state level, where it mostly occurs.

Whether the president is Obama, Hillary or Bernie, they can't do much to make black people feel safe on the street from law enforcement.

[BainsBane]

76. They are interconnected, but race is not secondary to economics

and certainly most AAs see the problems they encounter as a result of racism rather than class prejudice. Look at difference in arrest rates of poor whites vs. poor black folks. Also, even African Americans who earn a lot of money are subject to racism. No amount of money whitens.

Sanders seems to believe it is all the result of poverty. It is not. Additionally, there are personality issues that were evident at Netroots. For him to respond to protesters by talking about his record is tone deaf. The problem isn't his record; it's American society. He doesn't seem to understand how important it is to listen to voters. They don't care about "his record." They care about what he plans to do to address problems of racism, and what he says doesn't satisfy them.

I know the things about civil rights that people here love to champion: his marching 50 yrs ago and his support for Jesse Jackson. Guess what? I supported Jackson too. So what? That sure as hell doesn't make me a champion for Civil Rights. I guess I don't know what else he's done. I know he represents a state that is overwhelmingly white. He hasn't had the need until now to address diverse constituencies.

Also, he has a responsibility to say something to his supporters. Many of their responses to the BLM protest was simply unacceptable and counter-productive. He badly needs a come to Jesus moment.

[Humanist_Activist]

97. "Sanders seems to believe it is all the result of poverty." Evidence for this statement?

I will say that many of his supporters aren't helping, to put it mildly, and he should stand up on that issue.

But I also object to the misrepresentations of Bernie Sanders' positions such as the one you just stated.

[BainsBane]

124. What has he said to suggest otherwise?

[Humanist_Activist]

137. I'm not sure what you are asking for here, has Bernie Sanders ever said that racial...

discrimination doesn't exist? No. Has he ever voted against affirmative action? No. Does he acknowledge that the criminal justice system is discriminatory? Yes.

I'm not sure what more you would want here. An explicit statement for the exact wording you used, but opposite, I don't think such a statement exists.

[BainsBane]

177. My point was that he sees economics as the cause

and sees policies that address poverty as the solution. You said that wasn't accurate. I was asking how it wasn't accurate and what he has said or proposed to suggest otherwise. What am I misunderstanding?

[Humanist_Activist]

179. As the cause of what? Racism? Police violence?

He has said nothing of the sort, however he does recognize that economic policies were used for years to enforce unofficial segregation, redlining, defunding public schools, etc. It was used as a weapon for racism and discrimination, and he recognizes it can also be used as a tool to reverse those policies.

He also has advocated for ending the war on drugs, oversight of police through civilian comittees, reversing the militarization of the police, etc.

[Ed Suspicious]

128. I wonder if Sanders thinks it's about poverty and that

poverty leads to a loss of agency which leads to a diminished political voice. When minorities make the money they deserve they then have the means to raise a stronger voice. Broke people don't bring the lawsuits that can bring a change. I guess I don't really speak for him, but I imagine this could be part of the thing. I think there is something to be said for that.

[okasha]

150. What's to be said for it

is that it's exactly backwards. Racism, misogyny and homophobia all diminish voices. And when those voices manage to rise into the hearing range of the privileged, the response are all geared to their perspective. There is no real effort to see the world through the eyes of the less privileged. It's you, the white, the straight, the male, telling us what our problems are and how we have failed to approach them in a way you regard as appropriate.

I don't know how bravenak has managed to get through this thread without just giving up in nauseated disgust. My hat is off to her.

[Ed Suspicious]

151. Yeah, this is impossible. I hope Bernie can come up with an answer you all approve

Of. I'm nust some dude on the internet trying to understand. One thing I'm figuring out rather quickly is that no matter how much I try to listen and then represent my candidate in a respectful manner, its taken as thohh I'm trying to force something on people. I am not. Nor was I attacking Bravnak or talking down to her.so I'm unsure why you brought up her tolerance of this thread in response to my post. I just took a stab at guessing where Bernie was coming from. I guess I just don't know how to communicate with people who would take offense at that.

[TDale313]

69. As a Sanders supporter, I am truly embarrassed...

By the way some Sanders supporters have been acting. It's insulting and it's not helpful. It'll be up to Sanders and his campaign to reach out and address these issues on their own terms in a way that resonates. I think he can, but we'll see. IMO, it's our job as supporters to listen, get beyond the defensiveness and dismissiveness, and not make things worse.

I am sorry things have gotten ugly. You're an important and valued voice here.

[bravenak]

70. Sanders is reaching out to the black community right now.

He want a bit of help understanding our issues. I see that as a positive sign. If his supporters try his new tact, maybe things will improve.

Thank you for the support. Shit done got real, eh? Lol! Primary craziness.

[TDale313]

80. I think it is a positive sign.

I hope we supporters can follow his example. There's a lot of work to do. The first step is listen and figure out what that work is and how to address it.

[BOSNYCDC]

45. Not an either / or

It's a both.
I'm going to come at this from an epidemiological perspective (since I'm an epidemiologist who has dedicated his life to solving health inequities).

From the outset let me acknowledge that MANY subpopulations suffer from health and health care disparities (i.e. racial and ethnic minorities, LGBT populations, persons with disabilities etc.) but since we're talking about race, I'll focus on Black/White differences in health.

Bottom line: you can explain a very high proportion (say, between 60 and 80%) of B/W health gaps by evening out (statistically) socioeconomic status. That is, the gaps narrow a lot if you pretend that Blacks and Whites in the US have the same $$/education etc. But a race effect remains.

Bernie is not incorrect in saying that many of the economic policies he puts forward would go a long way to "solving" some of these health differences (including life expectancy). But they wouldn't erase them.
Racism exists. Structural racism exists.

I agree completely that Bernie needs to address racial and social (and health, I hope) injustice head on. Acknowledge that economics go so far. And shine a light on the structural racism that will keep those gaps open 20-40%.

That said, no other candidate is putting forward policies that could close health disparities 60-80%. Not HRC. Not at all.

So, let's engage in a productive, educative conversation with Bernie about that final 20-40%. But let's not disparage him for being the best candidate on these issues, albeit imperfect.

[bravenak]

46. Sorry but this is exactly what I mean. This is not helpful. Thanks though.

[BOSNYCDC]

48. What would be helpful?

I'm eager to have a dialogue. I've been a community organizer and CBPR researcher for 20 years. This is my passion.

Dismissing my post in 20 seconds without a thoughtful (or enlightening reply) that moves the conversation forward is also not helpful.

Others do have points to add to this important conversation. There is not 1 "correct' perspective.

[bravenak]

49. We are talking about racism and it always gets deflected in favor of something else.

Whether it's healthcare or economics, there is always a twust where it never gets discussed or addresses. We can't fix racism and black suffering and get social justice with what you posted.

[BOSNYCDC]

55. Community empowerment through health and economics can absolutely move us closer to social justice

Will it end racism? No.
But conversely, ending racism -- even structural racism -- would not automatically yield economic and health equity.
Again I submit it's not an either/or but a both.
And even if our courts, our police, our education system etc. ceased to be racist tomorrow, we still wouldn't have eradicated the personal racism that infects a significant % of the US.

I am not deflecting. I'm adding to.

[bravenak]

56. See, we don't want you to add to or change the subject. That's the problem.

[BOSNYCDC]

59. I am "we", and we can disagree

But 2 decades working to fight injustice, empower communities, and improve lives have taught me - and these lessons have come straight from "our" community -- that pulling all the levers you can, taking action wherever you can, is a better strategy than hitting 1 button to the excision of all others.

Racial, Economic, Health, Housing, Education and Social justice.

Focusing on all doesn't water down the others.

[bravenak]

60. Here go the lectures from well meaning liberals.

I went to school to. This is about black lives matter. I don't think you get to just arbitrarily decid what they or I should focus on. It's rude.

[BOSNYCDC]

61. Not once have I suggested what you should focus on

Merely sharing what I have learned from experience (not school).

I haven't denigrated or disparaged your position and view, yet you dismiss mine. And call me rude for having an unheated conversation.

Black lives do matter. And black lives end in all sorts of unjust ways. Police violence. Uncontrolled diabetes. Hazardous housing. All factors, in my opinion, are worth addressing.

Again, never said you had to adopt my opinion. But please don't put me down for a nuanced difference of opinion.

[bravenak]

62. Fine. Okay. Just have had too many lectures.

See ya around and we'll probably connect better.

[BOSNYCDC]

63. Sounds good. Take care. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Oh, here's something that was broadcast in my area about this locally:

Its a podcast program called "We Live Here", the last two episodes are talking about what looks to be your expertise:

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/programs/we-live-here

It is basically talking about how depressed economic status and de factor segregation are leading to increased risk factors that shorten the life spans of black people versus everyone else in my metro area. Its a pretty stark contrast too.

[BOSNYCDC]

88. Thanks for sharing this

Will definitely check out the series.

There's some new research out of Baltimore in a local, disadvantaged community with significant Black and White populations. Bottom line is that given the similar economics, education etc. Black/White health gaps barely exist.

Segregation, lack of access to parks, healthy food, health care, good housing, public transport, etc. are killing Blacks (and Latinos, and the undocumented, and the poor) every day. Add to that racist policing and adjudication and the problems are compounded even more.

There are so many fights to fight and I understand that some folks prioritize one over the other especially given how seemingly insurmountable and daunting they are when taken together.

So I'm glad folks are angry. And I'm glad the conversation is brewing among liberals of all colors.

I hope that we can bring together all of our expertise and passion and develop a plan to address it all - through a candidate (and a Congress) that "gets it".

Someday. If we're loud enough.

[HFRN]

101. so do the Koch brothers

they couldnt care less about social issues, because they know if you control the purse, little else matters

it's nothing new

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

[bravenak]

102. That had nothing to do with anything. I do not care about the Kochs today.

They donate to the united negro college fund too. So what?

[HFRN]

105. of course you don't - you're not a 'dot connecter' nt

[bravenak]

106. That is calling me stupid. I think i will alert. I have never alerted so many posts in one day.

[HFRN]

108. be sure to post the result nt

[bravenak]

109. No.

[MrMickeysMom]

115. bravenak.. You know what you can tell from jury comments?

That the jury who gives comments like this a pass, don't have much of an explanation for doing so. I was juror #1-

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Not caring about the kochs does not indicate stupidity like this poster thinks. Apparently if people would just 'connect the dots' they see that it all leads back to the Kochs. This is abusive and it has been going on for several days.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jul 21, 2015, 03:48 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Inconsiderate and rude. Name calling, labeling… it's over the edge and departure from, "You're not seeing the point" comment instead.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: While not necessarily a direct ad hominem, it comes across as very snarky. I would definitely class this as disruptive and rude.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Who does this person think they are calling bravenak stupid? Arrogant and condescending. That is not discussion, it's a personal attack. The kind of person who makes fun of "Social Justice Warriors" on a liberal forum.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think the post should have been alerted on!
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid alert.

[HFRN]

116. I think 2 of the explanations were pretty clear

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think the post should have been alerted on!
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid alert.

and he could have avoided the above 2 jury comments if he had just posted the alert comment

'Not caring about the kochs does not indicate stupidity like this poster thinks. Apparently if people would just 'connect the dots' they see that it all leads back to the Kochs. This is abusive and it has been going on for several days. '

directly to me - perhaps I might have been enlightened

(but thanks for posting the result)

[bravenak]

121. Yes. That is par for the course.

It gets exhausting sometimes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. What makes you so much more intelligent than your interlocutor?

Please list your professional and academic accomplishments, with adequate verification, of course.


Thank you in advance.

[HFRN]

138. what's the punchline? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

139. You/nt

[HFRN]

140. now you did it

you hurt my feelings

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. LOL/nt

[NCTraveler]

7. We have an amazing poster who is always willing to talk about this issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251466009

Have fun.

[luvspeas]

26. I find both of your polls offensive...

you just have an agenda and it's obvious and a big waste of time. also you have people telling you it's offensive. People's feelings are not something to be arguing about. You should delete these threads and apologize.

[Cheese Sandwich]

27. Yeah and here's why...

Bernie spoke out against over policing and mass incarceration when all the other Democrats and liberals were tripping over each other to throw black people in jail. That includes the Clinton, Clinton, O'Malley, and most of the rest.

His heart is in the right place and he was there from the beginning.

Combine that with his economic agenda for the working class, and smart policies trying to keep us out of bullshit wars.

Bernie is a socialist. Socialism is anti-racism. It's built in.

BUT: Yes he has major room for improvement on how he talks about criminal justice issues TODAY. I'm not excusing his faults and failures. I just think on balance he's still pretty good, and certainly better than Clinton or O'Malley who were cheerleaders for locking up black people in mass numbers.

But he has to learn when people say police are murdering black people, he can't immediately flip to unemployment and kids hangin out on corners. It's too much like victim blaming.

I think he will step up and meet the challenge.

[Cheese Sandwich]

53. Can I ask you a question?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

65. Admittedly, I am furious, so I will allow this OP and thread to illustrate the points...

...much better than I can:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995879#post19

[Cheese Sandwich]

73. I think maybe you have me confused with someone else.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

77. You asked if I would allow you to ask me a question. What's your question?

[Cheese Sandwich]

84. I don't know man I forget.

It's no big deal.

I support the stuff you're talking about too.

I hope all the candidates step up and do the right thing. Including Bernie and also the others.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

92. I'm a LADY! Go Steelers!

[Cheese Sandwich]

96. LOL so sorry about that.

I think maybe I was talking to the Trayvon picture.

My bad.

Stay cool.
Go Steelers

See ya round this crazy place...

[HFRN]

111. Ironically, Bernie gets accused of NOT being two faced nt

[rock]

36. Yes, but keep in mind

Support is not a binary concept; it is spread across a range.

[guillaumeb]

54. some people on the left frame things through a class based analysis.

I do. That does not mean that I am unaware of the huge problem that many white people have with racism. But it does mean that when discussing many issues, I will use a class-based framework to show how the 1% use racism, and religion, and language, and ethnicity to divide working people.

But given that the economic foundation of the US was based upon slavery, any economic discussion will have and should have race as a subtext.

I cannot speak for Senator Sanders on this issue, but he identifies as a socialist so my inclination is to think that a class based economic view of the US and its problems might be Sanders' reference.

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. Gee, I thought it did. But what do I know?

[bravenak]

67. How to post crap like this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995434#post34

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I have never seen anything like that on a "progressive board" before.

Some folks's slips are showing.

[bravenak]

74. No shit. Skinner may need to do something soon.

[Historic NY]

178. +1

imagine progressives imploding...

[Number23]

119. Just when I thought all of these non-black people running to vote "yes" would be the most

entertaining thing about this thread.

[bravenak]

120. Ready to burn DU to the ground. Start a fire and cleanse this place. They act like Jehovah witnesses

about this guy. Or Scientologists. Or Standers.

[Number23]

122. And Liberal_Stalwart is the first casualty. On a time out for what looks like three months

This fucking place...

[bravenak]

123. They got me too. I said, youse a hater. Hidden 4-3.

I bet the rest of the month will be alert the black people festivals all over DU.

[Cha]

162. Oh wow.. 'cause of course no one can feel the hate.

[bravenak]

165. I know, right?

[luvspeas]

86. Comrade Grumpy I got my eye on you...

stop acting like Colonel Klink.

[Comrade Grumpy]

171. Get lost n/t.

[luvspeas]

176. wow. it took you this long to come up with that?

seems you're not as slick as you think you are, slick.

[Cha]

112. Apparently you need to get a clue..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995434#post34

[Renew Deal]

82. It sounds like you are trying to say "all lives matter?"

Bernie's philosophy is to lift all ships. Apparently that is offensive.

[delrem]

107. wow, quite some attacks going on in these threads.

Extreme.

[ibegurpard]

118. how many who answered here are black?

If you're not I doubt you're in a position to say.

[BainsBane]

125. That is a very true point

The fact is there are very few people of color on this site. Many have left due to what they have described as a climate of hostility. That would appear to be more evident now than ever.

[bravenak]

136. The ones who got alerted on or hidden in this thread are the black ones. Always.

[BainsBane]

170. kind of like the movies

where the black guy always dies first.

[nc4bo]

134. That works both ways but I bet you already knew that.

Personally I like to see what lurks or bubbles out of DU's muddy undercurrent.

[NanceGreggs]

152. I'm still trying to figure out ...

... what the point of polls like this is.

It is understood that the vast majority of posters on this site are BS supporters. So everyone knows what the outcome of these polls will be.

So again - what is the point?

In addition to that obvious fact, what is the point of asking BS supporters if they "believe that Bernie's platform and voting/speaking history shows that he cares about and supports black people"?

If AAs and minorities don't believe that Bernie is speaking to them and for them, whether a bunch of people on DU think he is, is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

Is the idea for BS supporters to slap each other on the back and say, "See, Bernie's got it right, and the AAs and minorities who don't support him are just wrong?"

We've heard a lot on this site about Bernie "getting his message out there". Well, if his message isn't resonating with black Americans and minorities, the problem is with the message or the messenger, and is not the fault of those who just aren't buying it.

[ibegurpard]

153. I am in very rare agreement with you

This thread is a clusterfuck

[Fearless]

157. The point is to engage in dialog around specific point of fact statements.

I.e. I ask a yes / no question and people talk.

I believe that has occurred.

[NanceGreggs]

158. What doesn't work ...

... is asking a question when you already know what the answer will be, and then trying to make a point about how the answer proved something.

By Skinner's own account, 85% of DU are Bernie supporters. So what is the point of polls that will obviously show that 85% of DU are Bernie supporters?

[Fearless]

159. The point was to answer the question asked not to find out if someone supported Bernie or not.

We should have quantitative research on what we believe on the question asked. Everyone provided that research. I asked a question and believe that I asked it in an unbiased way. If you suggest I didn't I'd be interested in hearing you out.

[NanceGreggs]

163. On a site that is 85% Bernie supporters ...

... regardless of the question posed, the "Bernie is right!" response is going to be the majority response.

Everyone here knows that. So what is the point of pretending a different outcome is possible, or that the obvious outcome has any relevance?

If you post a poll on a Republican site about "which is the better political party", you already know that The Democratic Party! isn't going to be the majority response. So why ask the question in the first place?

[Zorra]

156. ^

[Recursion]

160. Who cares? No, really.

You're not electing a set of ideas to the White House, you're electing a person whose experiences and outlook will be very important. You're not electing the person who gets to decide what US policy is, for the most part; you're electing a national spokesperson who gets to nudge the conversation in a certain direction.

Just in terms of the actual actions of the US Government, it's unlikely there would be very much difference at all between a Clinton or Sanders administration (if we had a realistic shot at picking up Congress that might be a different story).

[Fearless]

161. We actually are projected to pick up the Senate currently.

We could have the House by 2018 if we have the right voice in the White House.

[Recursion]

164. How does "the right voice" overcome gerrymandering?

Or will conservatives stop being conservative when they hear the right arguments?

[Fearless]

166. The right voice inspires people to go to the polls.

The gerrymandering issue does need to be solved.

I'll never forget Rove on Fox News ranting about Ohio.

The fix was in. Clearly.

But we still beat them. And we need to, if we ever hope to get bipartisan redistricting.

[mythology]

168. As a white guy, I'm not really qualified to make any definitive statement

But I think based on polling results his message isn't resonating with black voters. That could be because he isn't addressing some fundamental aspect as others have suggested like social justice or it could be he isn't framing his argument in a away away that connects to black voters.

Do I think Sanders is a racist or otherwise doesn't care about blacks? No. But the polling shows his message isn't getting support from blacks at this point.

[Doctor_J]

172. not rich black people that much

But whatever black people are in the 99%, absolutely