If elected, Hillary may be the most ineffective POTUS in our lifetime

[Cosmic Kitten]

Not that she intrinsically will be ineffective,
but he will have ZERO support of republicans
and mixed support from Democrats.

It will be four years of either marking time
or marching backward.

Republican WILL dredge up every possible
scandal and obstruct any possibility for
meaningful change for no other reason
than they HATE Hillary.

America cannot afford to squander
the next 4 years fighting over
personalities rather than policies.

[DanTex]

1. Bernie won't have this problem since the unicorns flying across the sky will distract the GOP.

[Surya Gayatri]

4. Good one! LOL!

[Cosmic Kitten]

7. Just being pragmatic...

The Clinton legacy is nothing
but seething hate from the
right-wing.

Don't you think the RW would
pounce at the opportunity
to impeach a Clinton if
the opportunity presented itself?

[DanTex]

8. Pretending the GOP won't obstruct Bernie just as much is not "pragmatic," it's "delusional".

You really think the GOP is going to just say, go ahead, bring on the socialism?

[Cosmic Kitten]

15. This is about Hillary as a polarizing figure.

Is there ANY evidence that
right-wingers will cooperate
with the Hillary?

[DanTex]

21. Is there any evidence that right-wingers will cooperate with Bernie? Of course not.

Any Democrat elected president automatically becomes the most polarizing and hated person in the nation by the GOP. It happened to Bill, it happened to Obama, and it will happen to whoever wins in 2016.

[Cosmic Kitten]

22. Unfortunately, the RW has a vendetta against Hillary

Not all candidates are as polarizing

[DanTex]

24. They pick up new vendettas pretty quickly. For example, with Obama.

[Cosmic Kitten]

31. Indeed! So why throw them red meat for the next faux scandal?

[DanTex]

33. There will be plenty of red meat and faux scandals no matter who is President.

If anything, Hillary has experience dealing with this successfully for decades. She still out-polls every one of them, after all.

If you really want to be pragmatic, have a look at Bernie's poll numbers, his fundraising numbers, and the fraction of Americans who say they won't consider voting for a "socialist".

[Cosmic Kitten]

38. Experience dealing with being obstructed?

[DanTex]

43. Experience with GOP attacks and faux scandals.

Just wait until the GOP starts talking about how Bernie honeymooned in the USSR, and met up with the mayor of Yaroslavl to compare notes. Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be all smiles.

[whathehell]

203. Can you imagine any Democrat they would actually like?

I can't. They'd go to war with whatever D was in office, imo.

[pocoloco]

94. She is the right wing wet dream!

Daily Kos cartoon pointed that out...head up elephant's ass!
LOL

?1429127468

[ladjf]

44. What is your point? The Republicans will attempt to

obstruct ANY Democratic President. Are you saying there is no use because of the probable Republican obstructionism?

[DanTex]

46. That Republican obstructionism isn't a reason to favor one candidate over another, because it will

happen to all of them, with equal vigor.

[ladjf]

47. OK, I missed our point earlier. That makes sense.

[George II]

81. No, it's about Senator Sanders...surely you know that since you stole the premise from me...

...word for word.

I should be flattered, but I'm not.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=451127

[Cosmocat]

30. He is going to campaign against them, call them on their bullshit

and they are going to just love him for it ...

[Walk away]

55. But they will experience a complete meta noya through Bernie!

When their cable bills go down, the entire country (except people who work for banks) will rally around Bernie Sanders, march to D.C. and force the republicans to change and become as docile as puppies.

Instead of burning Hillary at the stake they will welcome Bernie with parties and open arms....just like Iraq welcomed our invasion!

This is pretty typical of Bernie supporters. Complete suspension of reality. OPs like this only make the Berniephile "cause" seem more desperate.

[Buns_of_Fire]

108. metanoya: n. change in one's way of life resulting from repentance

and spiritual conversion. http://www.metanoyachurch.org/

Actually, I was hoping that "metanoya" was some sort of medical condition that made their skin turn blue and their lips fall off or something equally transformative. I learn something every day around here...

[Walk away]

185. It is an expression that is commonly used to discribe a change in the way....

a person (or other animal) processes information.

[CrispyQ]

107. They'll try to impeach her for Benghazi.

[stevenleser]

143. Pragmatic? I don't think that word means what you think it means

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Bernie won't have this problem since the unicorns flying across the sky will distract the GOP.

Bernie won't have this problem since the unicorns flying across the sky will distract the GOP.

[Cosmic Kitten]

19. Flying unicorns???

Hey, you forgot sparkle farting ponies!!!!11!11!
How about adding a "magic wand"
and a "messiah" reference too??

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Don't worry, be happy...

[OhZone]

50. LOL!

"Bernie won't have this problem since the unicorns flying across the sky will distract the GOP."

Perfectly said, because ANY AND EVERY DEMOCRAT will suffer the same or a variation of hate and propaganda attacks by the GOP.

[yardwork]

67. That is funny.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

83. +100. n/t

[INdemo]

84. If Bernie is elected he will bring with him to Washington

a Congress that have the same goals as he does.
Chances are Democrats will regain control of the Senate because Progressive Democrats/Liberals will show up at the polls and vote.
With Hillary as it was in 2008 and 2012 liberals will stay home if she is the nominee.

There are 24 Senate Seats Republicans have to defend and only 10 for the Democrats.

My point is Bernie will bring out the voters
With Hillary many progressive/liberal Democrats will stay home and increase the chances of Republicans maintaining control.

So there is your unicorns flying across the sky theory.

[stevenleser]

111. The senate is a big longshot in 2016 and the House is out of play until 2022 at the earliest due to

redistricting.

So, no.

[DanTex]

116. Agree about the house, but I think "longshot" is too pessimistic for the senate.

I don't know if people are Nate-Silvering the senate yet, and there's no Intrade anymore, but I think there's a decent shot, maybe something like 30% or 40%.

[greenman3610]

87. Because a Jewish Socialist will be embraced by the troglodyte right.

Just like they embraced our first black president.

[JoePhilly]

88. Ahahahaha!!!

[Sheepshank]

113. Nice lol

I was going to come back with something much more acerbic. Your response was perfect. So I'll just say "ditto"

[Cha]

200. Too true.. those sparkly unicorns will dazzle 'em.

[99Forever]

2. K&R

[unblock]

3. yeah, i mean, look how ineffective obama has been

wtf is this thread, seriously?
at best, the basic premise is that we should let republicans determine the democratic nominee.

i'm fine with hillary, i'm fine with sanders. i'm not fine with republicans getting to choose through their rotten behavior.

[Surya Gayatri]

5. Looks like that's pretty much the argument...

'...the basic premise is that we should let republicans determine the democratic nominee.'

[GoneOffShore]

75. Well, they can't wait for Clinton.

Because if there's one person in the Democratic party the Republicans hate more than Obama, it's Ms Clinton.

And a lot of the Republicans seem to be pushing for her, obliquely and indirectly, because they are definitely afraid of Sanders.

Oh yes, Sanders will attract the attacks and lies. But Ms Clinton will attract more.

And by the way, we should not be distracted by the primary fight but be really concentrating on local elections and House and Senate races. That's how we'll end up back in the driver's seat.

And the concentration also should be on progressive candidates, not those who are happy to always take the right hand exit.

[whathehell]

204. I'm a Bernie supporter at this point, but I have every confidence in Hillary's ass-kicking capacity

She knows how the Wing Nuts operate. She's tough stuff and I respect her for that.

[Cosmic Kitten]

10. The premise is that right-wingers...

would make the Benghazi!!1!!1
persecution a warm up.

Do you disagree that a republican
Congress would obstruct any
initiative Hillary put forth?

Do you really think a republican
Congress would approve Hillary
SCOTUS nominees?

[unblock]

16. they'd be assh*les if we nominated the corpse of ronald reagan!

one thing you can count on is for republican so delay, obstruct, lie, obscure, distort, distract, and manufacture scandal.

what on earth makes you think they would do anything differently for sanders or anyone else?

they're giving obama all kinds of made-up crap, they gave bill clinton all kinds of made-up crap, they even still give carter crap.

[Cosmic Kitten]

18. Hillary is a right-wing punching bag.

Don't know if you have noticed but,
the right-wing has yet to let
an opportunity to sully Bill or Hillary
pass without taking a jab.

Do we need another Starr report?

[stevenleser]

145. Anyone we nominate will be a right wing punching bag. Carter was, Bill was, Gore was, Kerry was,

and now Obama is.

And I almost forgot, Mondale and Dukakis were.

What part of this aren't you getting?

[aspirant]

152. "aren't... getting"

Then why are you guesting at a RW punching bag propaganda Fox station

[Recursion]

193. You know Sanders has gone on Fox, right?

And, seriously, are you asking why a professional journalist goes on TV when invited?

[aspirant]

199. Bernie has a reason.

He's a sitting US Senator and a Presidential candidate, SL is not

An UNPAID journalist going not just on TV but a RW propaganda machine and then criticizes Bernie and his supporters for wasting their time in trying to convert Repubs even suggesting a standard for conversion implying failure

If he isn't converting RW thugs and is an unpaid guest, why appear? He even posts his RW videos here but let a Bernie supporter even accidentally link a RW site with a neutral or positive LW message and the sky falls with hides.

[aspirant]

202. "one person says something"

from a Fox unpaid guest


stevenleser (24,249 posts)
54. In other words, its wishful thinking that has no basis in his past ability to execute it.

I'm a believer in the maxim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

To claim that because one person says something, the GOP base will suddenly change their minds is an extraordinary claim. And past evidence, with the very person you are saying will accomplish that, tells a different story.

Not only have you not met the standard of extraordinary evidence, the available evidence contradicts you.
one person says something

[aspirant]

205. Add this, same thread

"wave of conservative folks changing there minds" Where is SL's proof of his wave,yet he keeps appearing as an unpaid guest crticizing others appearance as unfruitful



stevenleser (24,249 posts)
43. And what makes you think that bit of wishful thinking will pan out?

Bernie has been appearing on conservative media every now and then. Millions of conservatives have seen him on each appearance.

Why hasnt there been a wave of conservative folks changing their minds to fight for progressive ideals?

[okasha]

155. Don't know if you've noticed

but every time the Republicans have gone after Hillary, they've got the shit beat out of them.

And will again.

[aspirant]

165. I thought she lost the Presidental Primary

with Obama and all that RW intervention

[okasha]

172. Obama is not a Republican

Does that RW intervention exist anywhere outside your imagination?

[aspirant]

173. Imagine that

RW'ers trying to derail Hillary

[Proud Liberal Dem]

6. Whoever gets elected

Needs a Democratic Congress. Bernie will face some of the same obstacles. Support for him is/will be mixed too. I will happily support the Democratic nominee but Republicans are guaranteed to dislike/attack/obstruct/scandalize whoever gets elected.

[Cosmic Kitten]

12. Yes, but Hillary is particulary polarizing

[Cosmocat]

27. So say the republicans

because ...

She is the primary threat to win the white house.

That is what they said about her up until BHO became the presumptive nominee, and all of a sudden ...

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Barack-Obama-Gallup-polarizing-president/2015/02/06/id/623299/

And, if Bernie beats the stupid and wins the nomination and becomes POTUS, he WILL become the most polarizing person in the country to these assholes.

There are legitimate reasons to make the case for Bernie over over Hil, and I know you are going to get all up in arms over calling it for what it is, but this is a bullshit republican meme.

[Cosmic Kitten]

36. THe POINT is that the RW already has history of obstructing Hillary

She won't be able to get ANYTHING
done if she has to fight faux scandals
like email-gate or Benghazi.

As a result, America will be
either marking time
or marching backward.

[Cosmocat]

40. The POINT is ...

you can plug BHO, Bernie or any other democrat into this sentence ...

He or she won't be able to get ANYTHING
done WHEN he or she has to fight faux scandals
like email-gate or Benghazi.

As a result, America will be
either marking time
or marching backward.

[fbc]

9. Sanders will call out republicans, and campaign against their reelections

I won't be able to stand stand another four to eight years of pretending this congress can be worked with.

[Cosmic Kitten]

13. +1

[redstateblues]

90. The Rs in the South will be terrified if Bernie

Calls them out. Especially with the Bronx accent. The only way anything gets done is we win back the Congress. Not just the Senate.

[TheCowsCameHome]

11. Yeah, actually I'm leaning toward Trump or Cruz.

No sense not getting along with the crackpots on the right, is there?

Besides, on top of Hillary's background, Bernie only cares about white folks.

[Cosmic Kitten]

14. That's the spirit!

You seem to have a very astute sense of politics

[Botany]

20. 2 words

Supreme Court

[Cosmic Kitten]

25. Ummm? Republicans will confirm Hillary nominees?

A SCOTUS nominee with no chance
of being confirmed is useless.

[rtracey]

56. thats a bullshit statement

Bullshit statement, because you as I have ZERO Idea how the Senate makeup will be when and if a SCOTUS nominee is needed. Remember its the Senate that confirms nominees, and as of next election, the Senate plays into the democrats hands...

[Botany]

69. Oh for the love of dog

because after all a republican president would pick a good liberal
to be on the SCOTUS

[MineralMan]

97. And they'd confirm a Sanders nominee?

Again, your argument doesn't make any logical sense, I'm afraid.

[Cosmocat]

23. Of for crying out loud ...

Which differs from BHO, how?

I supported BHO in great part for this reason, I thought MAYBE the republicans would not be as big of jackasses with him as they would with Hill, and guess what?

They somehow managed to do what they have done the last quarter century - be even bigger assholes than before.

And, BHO is as cool, level headed and accommodating as you can be.

Sorry, the seas of partisanship aren't going to glorifyingly part for Bernie.

They WILL oppose him absolutely just as they have BHO, and such time as he becomes the actual presumptive democratic candidate they will turn on him like they did with BHO, who they mostly ignored while screaming about Hillary until he became the nominee, then it was fucking jeremiah wright, flag pins, celebrity and whatever other stupid ass nonsense they could scream about that the media went along for the ride on.

You just are bloated full of the kool aid if you think Bernie won't get the same treatment, and you are just bloated full of kool aid if you think the congressional democrats who mostly are supporting Hill and not supporting him at this point will magically turn into progressive warriors because Bernie is so different. They will do what they do now more than ever. Look out for their own asses.

So, you will have 1/3 of Ds who are really liberally oriented in safe districts who are going to be there most of the time. you will have 1/3 of he Ds who are mostly liberal in districts where they can ring in on a big issue here or there, and you will have 1/3 of the Ds who are "Blue Dogs" who won't be there for anything that risks their seat.

NOW, I know this will be lost on you because I am popping the helium bubble, and I am sure I will be some meaney for posting all this.

I voting Bernie because it is the right thing. If we had 300 more Bernies it would be different. So, if we can get one in 1600 Pa, we should do it.

But, the OP forwards a REPUBLICAN meme.

That Hill is some decisive person who republicans hate just because of who she is.

They hate here because she is the primary threat to win the white house.

They hated her more than anything until BHO was the presumptive nominee, then they were just fine with her and hated BHO.

And, if Bernie gets to that point, they will do the same to him.

Undeniable reality.

Scorpion and frog ...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. "Scorpion and frog ..."

I love that metaphor.

[Cosmic Kitten]

37. So is Hillary is the frog or the scorpion?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Huh

[Cosmic Kitten]

29. What "republican meme"???

But, the OP forwards a REPUBLICAN meme.

That Hill is some decisive person who republicans hate just because of who she is.

They hate here because she is the primary threat to win the white house.

Did you miss Benghazi?
Was Benghazi about Hillary
being a front runner?

[Cosmocat]

32. Uh, YEAH

WTH do you think it was about ...

[Peacetrain]

34. "No, you're not a good progressive if your vote openly assists the Republicans winning in 2016"

or more appropriately lack of vote..

[jehop61]

35. So Let's just vote for a Republican

and let the corporations really take over and thwart the wishes of 99% of US citizens. Blah😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫

[Cosmic Kitten]

39. Or... support Bernie!

[-none]

60. At least Bernie know how to use the bully pulpit.

And is not afraid to use it to call out the Republican BS. Neither is he beholding to the big money of the banks and Wall Street. Two big pluses.

[peacebird]

63. Exactly!

[stevenleser]

148. According to whom? His prior executive experience was as a small city mayor with a city council that

was on his side.

There is no evidence of him using speaking ability to get a legislative body to do his bidding.

[-none]

160. And Hillary's in Congress?

[stevenleser]

161. She's not promising the earth and moon to progressives, is she? nt

[-none]

166. Because she can't be pinned down as to where she stands on important items.

[stevenleser]

167. None of that distraction changes the fact that Bernie has no track record using the bully pulpit to

accomplish anything.

[aspirant]

170. Just like Obama

[-none]

175. The why the following?

He says what he thinks, loud and clear.

[aspirant]

168. No, just the ordinary status quo

[Dawgs]

45. Or, nominate another candidate.

[Scuba]

41. I would hope so.

[quickesst]

48. by your logic

... If Republicans hate Hillary that much, and Bernie's supporters believe him to be far more left progressive then her, then how can Bernie get anything done, because, again by your logic, they will probably wage all out, take no prisoners, kill them all and let God sort them out war against him? do you think they will be overwhelmed by his charm and smooth talk, then simply fall into line?

[Control-Z]

171. I hadn't heard about his charm and smooth talk.

Even though I agree with a lot of what he says, I find him to be harshly didactic.

[aspirant]

174. Bernie will have the Veto pen

saying NO to anti-people Trade Deals, Bankster Giveaways and austerity budgets, huge buffer.

[quickesst]

186. So...

you believe the 20 plus year hateful vendetta against the Clintons has all been a ploy to fool democrats into voting for one of their own?

[aspirant]

192. "how can Bernie get anything done" your words

Post #174 has the answer

[quickesst]

207. and Clinton wont?

the only fact in that statement is that as president he will have veto power. it's also a fact that Hillary will have it. the other two points in post number 174 are simply opinions, just as it is my opinion that Hillary will wield that power more wisely, and with far less opposition. but hey, 1 out of 3 still isn't bad.

[Godhumor]

49. ...this is a monumentally stupid premise

HRC would have the overwhelming support of congressional Democrats on almost every single issue. Republicans are a lost cause regardless of who we nominate.

And, frankly, Obama had shown what can be done even when more than half the legislative branch is allied against the president.

Feel free to not support Clinton but don't pretend Sanders would have it any easier.

[OilemFirchen]

51. Sounds like Chafee is your guy.

Good luck with that.

[Lochloosa]

52. My Step-Brother (that will remain unnamed) is a US Congressman.

He told me once the greatest power the President has is the ability to say NO.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee. Period!

[Perseus]

53. You seem to forget that if that were the case, then nothing would change

Bill Clinton had full opposition from Republicans, and he got a lot done, Obama had even more opposition from Republicans, and even though many of us would have like him to do more, mainly prosecution of the Iraq war "brains" and executioners as well as prosecution of bankers, etc., he managed to do a lot.

Why do you think it would be different for Hillary, or Bernie, or anyone who is not a Republican? It is up to those of us who vote for democrats to not sit on out butts during elections and make sure that the Republicans do not become a majority again.

If you are trying to scare people to not vote for Hillary I suggest you pick a new sales pitch, if Bernie does not capture a majority in the Democratic party, I don't see a solution but to vote for Hillary...All the negative campaign towards Hillary is analogous to shooting one's foot, a practice that Democrats seem to enjoy.

[Skwmom]

209. I suggest you read "Bill Clinton is sorry for a lot of Things"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-clinton-is-sorry_55a83397e4b0896514d0e220

[OhZone]

54. ANY AND EVERY DEMOCRAT will suffer similar variations of hate and propaganda attacks by the GOP!

ANY! Even Sanders.

It's what they do.

[boston bean]

57. BS. nt

[sufrommich]

58. IN OUR LIFETIME !!

STUDY IT OUT PEOPLE!!!

[Metric System]

59. Meh, they managed to hate Obama too. They hate ALL Democrats. Do you think they will play

nice with a President Sanders?

[MillennialDem]

61. So will Bernie - but whoever wins will move the national dialogue (Bernie is better here) and will

appoint SCOTUS judges (questionable if Bernie would be any better... though a better way to look at it would be will Hillary be any worse - corporatist judges?)

[JaneyVee]

62. Obama got stuff done without Republicans.

[aspirant]

109. Like the TPA?

[Gamecock Lefty]

64. Hillary is NOT a Polarizing Figure!

Why do you keep saying that? What the hell has she done that others haven’t to make her polarizing?

I see - if you keep repeating it, others start believing it, too. Got it.

It’s like the media asking her why she wants to be President? How many men have been asked that question – over and over again?

That's why the Repubs started attacking Hillary months ago - they fear she'll be the Dem nominee so they start with their mindless nonsense way ahead of time. It’s all so silly.

With every “why I can’t vote for Hillary” or “here’s why my grandson loved the Bernie rally” thread and the constant attacks on Hillary make me dig in and go to battle for her even harder.

RAISE HILL 2016!

[LWolf]

164. Wow.

While I understand you wanting to dig in because of opposition to her nomination, and not liking Republicans attacking her (which they will do to any nominee,) the bottom line is that she IS a polarizing figure.

She inspires a hell of a lot more of the same passion you are expressing, but AGAINST her, than the other nominees.

A Clinton nomination will bring them out in droves for the GE.

[oberliner]

65. You want a candidate who will get the support of Republicans?

Is that really something that we should be looking for? A Democratic candidate who Republicans won't hate so much?

[LuvLoogie]

66. Please Hillary, PLEASE!! You're ruining it for everyone!

People like Bernie! He's authentic! People HATE you Hillary, because you're a lying liberal corporatist FemiNazi DLC 3rd wayer!

[leftynyc]

141. You either forgot your sarcasm thingy

or you're just begging to have this post hidden.

[GitRDun]

68. You have absolutely no idea what she'll be like as President

No one does. President Obama was not nearly as bold as his rhetoric.

I'm no Hillary fan, but these kid of posts are the worst! They serve no other purpose than to fan the flames....

[Cosmocat]

76. I want to gouge my eyes out

I flipped to Bernie a bit after he announced, but I spend most of my time here refuting this stupidity ...

I listen to him and I feel good about him.

I read his supporter here and I want to scream ...

[GitRDun]

184. Lol

An OP that is nothing but hyperbole followed by an invective comment response that demonstrates nothing but an inability to read and understand what I wrote.

I rest my case.

[aspirant]

112. "no idea" then why vote for her?

[Buzz Clik]

70. But a "democratic socialist" who doesn't call himself a Democrat is going to unite the country.

Okey dokey.

[aspirant]

115. A Capitalist, Corporatist Wall street Lover will unite the country

Okey dokey

[Buzz Clik]

129. Wow.

[sabrina 1]

187. He's off to a good start. Once people learn who is and see his long, consistent

record as a public servant, they are sold. Now all we have to do is keep introducing him to those who still have not been introduced and there is no question who the next POTUS will be.

[rock]

71. Sounds like you're describing Obama

Even then, I don't buy it. Sorry C.K.

[jalan48]

72. Not true. Hillary and the Republicans will work together to make Wall St. more profitable.

[blue neen]

73. So, you're saying Mitch McConnell and John Boehner would be best buds with Bernie Sanders?

Come on.

I'm undecided at this point, trying to educate myself about which candidate will be best suited to become the Democratic nominee. I hope your post is not indicative of other Bernie Sanders' supporters, because this kind of thinking would actually turn me away. In other words, you're not doing Bernie any favors.

[MineralMan]

74. This doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Senator Sanders will also have zero support from Republicans and mixed support from Democrats.

If Sanders is elected, without a Democratic majority in Congress, it will also be four years of marking time or marching backward.

Republicans will attack Bernie sanders constantly as a "socialist" and dredge up every fake scandal and obstruct change because they will HATE sanders.

America cannot afford to squander the next four years. We must elect a Democrat as President and take back control of the Senate.

Whoever prevails and gets the nomination will need our 100% support in the General Election. Will you join in that support, regardless of the name of the nominee? If not, then there is a problem, and it may be a Republican who wins.

[Cosmocat]

77. Easy there bucko

This living in reality stuff is not to be tolerated!

[MineralMan]

79. I have no choice. Reality is where I must live.

I know of no other place available to me.

[aspirant]

123. Search for your spiritual self, it is eternal

[MineralMan]

126. I have just one self. I don't believe in spirits or other non-physical

phenomena. You're welcome to search for whatever you wish. You're not welcome to tell me what I should search for, though.

My life is in reality. That's the only place I know of. Your experience might differ from mine.

[aspirant]

132. This is DU

I am welcome to write what I choose

[MineralMan]

134. Of course you are free to write as you please.

And I'm free to respond to posts directed at me. I have done so in this case. Your exhortation for me to search for something I don't believe exists was not welcome, though. It presumes too much, I think.

[aspirant]

137. An awakening can happen at any moment

[MineralMan]

139. Uff da!

Whatever you say...

[aspirant]

177. "say"

I didn't know the keyboard transferred my voice, that must be a new reality.

[aspirant]

120. Bernie has never classified himself as a "moderate Republican"

and would not have signed the TPA. What would Hillary have done?

He wants to break-up Wall Street, unlike Hillary and wouldn't sign any bill granting WS more power.

I trust Bernie with the Veto Pen more than Hillary

[MineralMan]

125. Then you should support Senator Sanders in the primaries,

as I will do. If he prevails, we all will get to vote for him. If he does not prevail in the primaries and win the nomination, we will all get to vote for Hillary Clinton. I will be voting for, supporting, and campaigning for the Democratic nominee for President, as I have since 1960. I hope we all do exactly that, whoever that candidate turns out to be.

I am a Democrat. During the primaries, I will support my favorite candidate. In the general election, the Democratic nominee gets my full support every time. The alternative is unthinkable.

[aspirant]

135. You're not welcome

to tell me who I should support, sound familiar

[MineralMan]

136. But I am free to tell you anything I wish.

Whether it is welcome or not is irrelevant.

[aspirant]

140. Practice what you preach

[George II]

78. Nice copy job, where's your originality? Can't you come up with your own material? Sheesh.

I wonder if plagiarism is covered in the TOS?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=451127

"if elected, he will most likely be the most ineffective President of our lifetimes not that he intrinsically will be ineffective, but he will have ZERO support of republicans and mixed support from Democrats.

It will be four years of either marking time or marching backward. Thankfully we don't have to worry about that possibility."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

121. I have been here for twelve years and I have never seen a poster purloin another poster's work.

"By their fruit you will recognize them."

[JimDandy]

144. In this very thread right above us, Mineral Man used the very same name-switching

tactic as the OP. I've seen it used numerous times on DU over the years. I believe it wasn't Mineral Man's intent to plagiarize George either...I suspect he didn't even know he was actually switching back to the name that was in the original paragraph!

[JimDandy]

131. Clearly the OP is throwing your words back in your face

to show how a statement can be just as applicable (or more applicable) to someone else by simply switching names around.

[George II]

133. Doubt it, otherwise the OP would have referenced my words. Plagiarism, plain and simple.

[JimDandy]

138. The point is to NOT reference your opponents words

when using a simple name switch tactic. That would reduce the power of that mechanism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

169. That's an exquisite excuse for plagiarism.

[JimDandy]

196. The SCOTUS has upheld that using parody/satire to ridicule and expose the shortcomings of a

political argument is fair use and not plagiarism or trade mark infringement etc. That said, see #194. I no longer believe CK's OP is a parody/satire.

[JimDandy]

194. I'm going to have to agree with you now that it's plagiarism.

Not because the OP did not reference your words (my point on that is valid for OPers who are doing a legit name-replacing parody/satire.) but because of this in post #99 by Cosmic Kitten : "I was assured these talking points were thoroughly proofred." (italics mine)

CK had an opportunity in that post to reply to Chalco that she had simply copy/pasted your text as a parody to throw back at you, and the "he" was missed during proof reading. Instead, CK labeled it a typo, called the lifted text "talking points" and in all this time the thread has been up, has never confirmed it was a parody.

Mea Culpa George...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go copy, paste and legitimately parody your aforementioned post for an upcoming OP.

[Android3.14]

80. I'm sure the five Hillary supporters see it differently

From the dispirited defensiveness we've seen from her few ardent supporters, it is obvious that deep in their hearts, they know you are correct.

That's why I say the Republicans are drooling over the prospect of a Hillary campaign. Even if they lose, they still win because she pretty much works for the elite, demonstrates zero leadership on any progressive economic or social issue, and drumming up public support to demonize her is just too easy.

I better insert my loyalty oath here - During the general election, I vow to vote for the candidate that best represents my vision of a positive future for our nation. I certainly hope it is a Democrat.

[George II]

122. In your mind, will any of the 20+ republicans qualify ahead of Hillary Clinton?

[Android3.14]

156. In your mind, do you think your question is going to illicit a useful response?

What rubbish.

If I'm operating as some sort of fifth columnist, I'd lie and say "no".

If I'm going to vote for her, regardless of the probability that she will lose, or, on the unlikely chance that she wins, we still lose because she will be an awful President, I'd still say "no".

If I were a militant progressive trying to promote a different candidate without running afoul of the jury system, I'd say "no".

I can't think of a reason to answer "yes", except to intentionally have the DU powers-that-be toss me out, which appears to serve no purpose at all.

[George II]

157. My question was prompted by this:

"I vow to vote for the candidate that best represents my vision of a positive future for our nation. I certainly hope it is a Democrat."

So in your mind there is a possibility that there will be a candidate that would be better than the Democratic candidate?

[Android3.14]

158. And?

Look George, no one may have told you this, but bullying is a character flaw.

Your question is mean-spirited in that the motivation for it has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with intimidation. It reminds me of the fuckwads in middle school who would pin me down when they sensed weakness, hold an imaginary penis in front of my face and demand I close my mouth if I like to suck dick.

Any answer I give to you serves no purpose except to appease your desire to hurt people. It's a bad question, and a blatant attempt at bullying.

You should know better.

Until you can behave like an adult, get away from me.

[MyNameGoesHere]

82. Hmm with that logic

If grasshoppers had machine guns, birds wouldn't fuck with them.

[KoKo]

85. What about Bill...

Already old news is new news in NY Daily News about him approaching NYC Mayor DeBlasio's Spokesperson when she was a young Dem Activist in Arkansas. This is new news and the Clinton Foundation will provide more fodder for news stories. I won't link the article but if you search its out there. Do we need more of this kind of scandal being dredged up.

Its not just Hillary who will be attacked because presumably Bill will be living in the White House and have some kind of function in the Hillary Administration.

[Cosmic Kitten]

98. +1 EXACTLY

A Clinton administration would
waste precious time and resources
defending scandal, rather than
addressing the needs of the nation.

[JoePhilly]

86. Or she could be the greatest.

[aspirant]

127. Disappointment ever

[JoePhilly]

154. DU's perpetually disgruntled will be disappointed no matter who wins.

That we can be sure of.

[aspirant]

162. With Bernie we all win

[JoePhilly]

181. The instant he compromises ...

... the perpetually disgruntled will freak.

That, or he'll get absolutely nothing done.

[aspirant]

182. Bernie's veto pen,

no more austerity, corporate trade bills and bankster giveaways, the American people will rise up in perpetual cheers.

[AzDar]

89. Plus... she sucks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. Project much...

#lol@me

[Zambero]

91. ANY Democrat will receive 100% resistance from the GOP

Republicans believe that they have an inherent right to the Presidency, and become furious and irrational every time they lose. Hillary would be received no differently than President Obama has been. Which potential Democratic nominee might be capable of winning over the "hearts and minds" of Republicans (not that they have those attributes to begin with)?

[Cosmic Kitten]

96. Disagree that Hillary would be received "no differently"

Which potential Democratic nominee might be capable of winning over the "hearts and minds" of Republicans (not that they have those attributes to begin with)?

Which "republicans" are you referring to?
Voters or Congress Critters?

Bought and paid for Congress Critters
cannot be "won over", except by money.

Hillary and Bill have continually demonstrated
that they serve as partisan lightning rods.
As such, their presences serves to galvanize
right-wing voters.

[rurallib]

92. maybe we could work and win the senate and house back

then maybe the world won't end if Clinton is elected.

I have been trying to keep my mouth shut lately, but am getting rather upset at posts that say Hillary will be a lousy president or they won't vote if it is Hillary.

Gotta be nuts. Will you forego your vote if it is Hillary and help aRepublican become president? Talk about going backwards.

We have 3 of the finest candidates I have seen in my years. Any of them will make a good president. Any of them will be fighting crazy RW Republicans and media beginning the day after the election.

Remember, FDR came in as a somewhat conservative candidate. But he also had a Democratic congress.

Will you be working for your local democrats for congress?

[dsc]

93. with all due respect have you lived in a cave for the last 23 years?

I mean really. We could elect Ronald Reagan, not change his policies one iota, and the GOP would still refuse to cooperate. It is showing a delusional lack of knowledge to think that any person with doesn't have an R by his name sitting in the Oval Office would be cooperated with by the current Republican party. Paying any attention to the history of the Clinton and Obama administration would show that.

[Cosmic Kitten]

101. Hillary will galvinize republican voters

We need an administration that
will break up republican voters,
not an administration that will
rally them against necessary change.

[dsc]

114. so what happened with Obama?

What did he do to galvanize GOP voters? Be specific. Since apparently it is the Democrats fault that the GOP behaves as they do, then what did Obama do? For that matter what did Carter do?

[Chalco]

95. I find it fascinating that you referred to Hillary as...

"he" and I quote "Not that she intrinsically will be ineffective, but he will have..."

Can you not accept a "she" as president? Exactly what is behind your Freudian slip?

[Cosmic Kitten]

99. Fascinating? Are you cereal?

Blame my editor for missing that typo!

I was assured these talking points
were thoroughly proofred.

[Renew Deal]

104. "I was assured these talking points were thoroughly proofred."

[Chalco]

106. So maybe you and your proofreader...

are of the same ilk. So what is that ilk? Maybe you're in denial
about your true self.

[JimDandy]

149. LOL

Occam's Razor went 'whoosh' over Chalco's head.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Are you suggesting her "slip was showing" ?

eom

[liberal N proud]

102. ZERO support of republicans

What makes you think that will be different with any other NON-Republican president?

[Renew Deal]

103. Your post shows your naivete

Any Democrat has zero support from Republicans. Hillary will have just as much support as Obama. Elected Democrats are not motivated by the same thing as internet users with nothing better to do.

I also think you misunderstand the next 4 years. The goal the next 4 years is to hold onto the presidency and cement Obama's policies. The next Democratic president will be lucky to get a second term and is unlikely to be the politically dominating figure that Obama is. Basically 2016 is about holding on for dear life.

And I find your dislike of Hillary tragically disturbing. "Hillary may be the most ineffective POTUS in our lifetime." That would only be a valid statement coming from someone born after January 20, 2009.

[aspirant]

142. You can hold on for your dear life

we are joining the Bernie Revolution

[Renew Deal]

147. That includes Bernie

I think it's going to be tough to get two Democratic terms in 2016 from anyone including him. He's just going to have a harder time getting there.

[aspirant]

150. It's the people and the Revolution

that will get us the terms

[Cali_Democrat]

105. So in other words...

...we shouldn't elect her because the Republicans will be mean to her.

[zappaman]

110. LOL!

[scarletwoman]

117. As a Sanders supporter, I find this OP very unhelpful.

As many others have pointed out in this thread, Congressional Republicans will assuredly obstruct ANY Democratic POTUS - it's what they do. It's what they've always done.

Your OP is hyperbolic nonsense. Where do you get this idea of "mixed support from Democrats" - which Democrats? Certainly very few elected Democrats in DC - why would they not support her? She's one of them, a Beltway insider. They'll probably be happier with Hillary than many of them have been with Obama.

I find it inherently dishonest to use Republican intransigence as an argument for or against any Democratic candidate. No matter which Democratic candidate gets the nomination, Republicans will fight dirty in any way they can. If it's not Hillary/Benghazi! it will be Bernie/Socialist! Bank on it.

[zappaman]

119. Spot on!

If Jesus came back, ran as a Democrat and won the presidency, he would be blocked at every turn.
No Democratic president is going to have it easy.
But even with all their bullshit, Obama managed to accomplish many things.
Sad to think of what could've happened if we didn't have the party of NO to deal with.

[HassleCat]

124. Hold on a sec

I'm a big, big Sanders fan, but I think you have this backward. I hope we have a President Sanders, but I am realistic enough to know he will face some big problems advancing his legislation, and they are exactly the problems you assign to Clinton. Sanders is not liked by many in the Democratic Party. They feel they're doing him a favor by letting him caucus with them, and he has no business running for the Democratic nomination. If Clinton will enjoy only "mixed" support, Sanders will have even less than that. As for the Republicans, well... phhht!

[aspirant]

146. Do you think Bernie's veto pen

will be used exactly as Hillary's?

[HassleCat]

151. Of course not

But some sore loser Democrats could join the Republicans in overturning vetoes.

[aspirant]

153. Which sore loser Dems?

You mean Hillary supporters? So it's only us lowly voters that must take a loyalty oath not the Politicians who can vote bipartisan Repub if they choose.

[NCTraveler]

128. With a headline like that....

I thought it would at least be supported with some form of intelligent analysis in the op. Disappointed for opening and reading the whole thing. Washington Post headline followed up by Washington Post style analysis.

[Thinkingabout]

130. Have you read the information republicans have developed on Bernie? I will stick with the scandals

they can't prove on Hillary.

[Persondem]

159. Bull feces. The next prez will likley get to pick 2-3 SCOTUS judges

That alone should give who ever the next prez is a legacy that could extend for decades. The senate will be more friendly after 2016 so her/his nominations will have a decent chance of getting confirmed.

America cannot afford to squander
the next 4 years fighting over
personalities rather than policies.

Recall the 90's?? Specifically 92- 00 which was full of BS like Whitewater, Ken Starr and Vince Foster?? Yet Bill got a tax increased passed and handed an annual budget surplus of to Bush 2. That alone gave the USA a chance to avoid economic ruin. Of course Bush 2 ruined that many times over ... but that's another topic.

[aspirant]

163. ... and Bernie's veto pen

will continually stop devastating trade bills, Banksters giveaways and austerity budgets.

Don't forget about an AG appointment that will actually prosecute and jail Wall Street and corporate crooks. Hillary will give us more of the same

[DCBob]

176. So the socialist will be bff with the Republicans??

[FiveGoodMen]

178. I think she'll be effective in the same way that Obama has been

She'll give the GOP everything it wants and provide a means for the right to blame the left (well, the Democrats, anyway) for every bit of the fallout.

[aspirant]

179. Just like the e-mails

an HRC presidency will be the most secretive ever

[Sheepshank]

180. The premis in the OP and the follow up posts is just plain silly.

Republicans will be out in Force to shut down every single Dem. It will be their goal to try and render the left ineffective to try and gain relevancy. Doesn't matter which Dem may gain the WH.

If anything, Clinton has the know how how to navigate through the bullshit in the manner Obama was able to do so. Bernie not so much.

[Lil Missy]

183. Okay. I'll alert the media. n/t

[great white snark]

188. Good Gawd I hope Bernie isn't looking to his supporters for sound arguments.

If he read DU he'd be embarrassed.

[whatchamacallit]

189. Or... as the latest lead in the Neoliberal Kabuki Theater, covertly supported by both parties,

she will be wildly effective, and the 99% will suffer.

[oasis]

190. Hillary's a no nonsense leader with a "can do" attitude.

The GOP will not walk all over her.

[bravenak]

191. The republicans will act like that no matter what.

[JI7]

195. a Black Man energizes Republicans more than Hillary Clinton would

we are already dealing with Republicans at their worst.

[JI7]

197. i wish you would do some more poll analysis , your last ones were very informative

[NanceGreggs]

198. Maybe we can get Sarah Palin to defect ...

... and she can be the Democratic nominee!

Surely the GOP can't go after her for anything they haven't already defended her on/absolved her of.

It's the PERFECT plan!


<<< for them that needs it.

[John Poet]

201. Even more ineffective than Gerald Ford? Doubt that.

Beyond pardoning Nixon, I can't recall a single thing he ever did.

[Scootaloo]

206. Republicans won't give Democrats a goddamned thing. It doesn't matter what democrat it is.

So that being the case...

1) Hillary's revolving around the concept of bipartisanship. You know, her "warm purple sauce" idea. However, since we all understand that the Republicans aren't going to budge, this means either clinton will fail this endeavor utterly, or worse will succeed - by acting as enabler of the republican agenda. Frankly I would prefer the former ( I imagine so would Clinton supporters...) but I'm not sure Clinton herself prefers that. She seems really dedicated to the idea of working with Republicans no matter what, a goal which can only hurt us in the current political environment.

On the other hand, Sanders is not making big bipartisan promises. He recognizes Republicans as the impdiment that they are, and I can count on him to push against them as hard as he can to get progressive measures enacted. No, I don't have some utopian dream where we'd get everything or even most of everything. However i realize we wouldn't get that with clinton either, and I simply prefer a candidate who I know will try for hte best he can in the face of unyelding opposition, over hte candiddate who will cut and scrape and adjust and prune every bit of progressive policy she can in a game of "mother May I" wit hthe republicans.. .who will still block her at every turn.

2) Clinton's supporters have acknowledged that Clinton may have a wet blanket effect on voters, depressing Democratic turnout. While it's true she could probably squeak out a General win (the Republican hopefuls aren't exactly heavy hitters) the problem is everyone else below her on the ticket. We could win the battle and lose the war, so to speak, on this front.

Sanders however, can actually get the more liberal portions of the party moving (we are admittedly a little flabby when it comes to voting, yes, I'll acknowledge that.) And we know the Loyalists are going to be out there no matter what. I think Sanders as the nominee will have a greater impact on GOTV efforts, which will in turn lead to more democrats having better chances in the election.

Both candidates will face the hurdle of dipshit Republicans. That's not an onus on Sanders, or on Clinton, or on O'Mallee if he whips ahead (Sorry Chaffee, you're just not gonna happen man... I'm not sorry to you Webb, fuck you) But fced with the same hurdles, I am certain I can count on Sanders to represent my interests and fight for me better than clinton.

[Skwmom]

208. She'll get plenty done for her big money backers with the help of

the Republicans and Corporate Democrats. Why do you think they are funneling her so much money?

As long as a Corporate President is elected they can't lose.

Corporate Republican President + Republicans in Congress + Corporate Democrats in Congress = A Corporate Big Money Agenda is passed.

Corporate Democratic President + Republicans in Congress + Corporate Democrats in Congress = A Corporate Big Money Agenda is passed.

And all of those programs for the people that are promised but never passed, well they just blame that on the Republicans. What a racket.

I'm voting for Bernie b/c he is the ONLY candidate that I am sure is for the people and not the big money corporate interests. As they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.