Hillary Clinton goes bold on gun safety — but she sounded a different note in 2008

[DonViejo]

Exploiting a Bernie Sanders weakness, Clinton offers much more full-throated backing of gun control than in '08

SOPHIA TESFAYE

Hillary Clinton is staking her 2016 campaign firmly on the side of gun control, closely aligning herself with the Democratic Party base and planting herself further to the left on the issue than Democratic primary challenger Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), the Washington Post notes today.

The morning after a gunman opened fire in a historical African American church in Charleston, South Carolina and killed nine worshippers, Clinton said it was tim for America to be “honest” and “face hard truths” on violence and guns, asking, “How many people do we need to see cut down before we act?” In the weeks since, Clinton has not let up her charge pushing the issue of gun control. In a recent speech, she took on the NRA, calling it “the height of irresponsibility not to talk about” the gun lobby.

But Clinton hasn’t always been so forceful in her fight for gun control. As the Post highlights, Clinton has dramatically shifted her tone on gun control since the 2008 campaign. While Clinton touted her husband’s record record on gun control (former President Bill Clinton signed into the law an assault weapons ban that has since lapsed) she also heralded personal memories of learning to shoot with her father and defend gun ownership, saying, “there is not a contradiction between protecting Second Amendment rights” and the effort to reduce crime.

“You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” Clinton said while campaigning ahead of the Indiana primary, where white working class Democrats propelled her to a narrow victory over then-Sen. Barack Obama. “You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter,” she continued, in a dig at Obama’s remark at a fundraiser that disenfranchised Americans often “cling” to cultural symbols like guns and religion.

more
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/10/hillary_clinton_goes_bold_on_gun_safety_but_she_sounded_a_different_note_in_2008/

[onehandle]

1. I'm glad gun trolls are wasting time and resources fighting her now.

They're making her even stronger for the General Election.

[JaneyVee]

2. Gun control has big support among gun and non gun owners:

[Duckhunter935]

7. bet both candidates

would be for all of these measures.

[aikoaiko]

40. Except it's not a terribly important issue even to the supporters.

Last edited Sat Jul 11, 2015, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx

Even emotional appeals for gun control fail even after the Sandy Hook Massacre.

[JaneyVee]

42. Yet. There will be a tipping point.

[aikoaiko]

51. Or sometimes we reach equilibrium on issues.

We have moderate gun control which prevents or makes some prohibited people from accessing guns, but it is liberal enough that laws can still be exploited by some people with malice.

Of course equilibriums are sometimes maintained with pressure on both sides.

[TeddyR]

77. What makes you think that?

I can't think of a more tragic, sad shooting than what happened at Sandy Hook and even after that Democrats weren't able to pass a law requiring universal background checks. Firearms laws are becoming more liberal, not more restrictive, and opinions regarding firearm control have swung in favor of gun ownership, not gun restriction. I've seen nothing to make me believe that there is any great movement in favor of gun control.

[BooScout]

3. at least she has seen the light....which is more than I can say about Sanders n/t

[MoonRiver]

4. True that.

[Thinkingabout]

5. As stated, many gun owners are for gun control issues to help curb violence and criminal activity.

I am one of those gun owners. My family are big hunters, has the conventional weapons to hunt and not one of them has am AR15 type weapon. In fact they pride themselves in hitting their target on the first shot.

[Duckhunter935]

6. AR 10 is better for big game

AR-15 is more suited for varmint and feral hog that is quite a problem in a lot of areas. They are also one of the most accurate weapons designed. The only difference between the AR platform and bolt action is the mechanical function of reloading the next round. Of course now they have the pump AR that is 50 state legal.

[Thinkingabout]

10. AR15 is really good for a hunter who is a poor shot or who wants to destroy the game.

[Duckhunter935]

14. No, that would be incorrect

the 5.56 or .223 round is not very large and does too little damage. That is why it can not be used for hunting deer in many states. Part of hunting is to not let the animal suffer by wounding it.

[Thinkingabout]

16. No, it did lots of damage to little kids in Sandy Hook.

[Duckhunter935]

22. As would any criminally

Misused weapon. Or a knife or car or bomb for that matter. A bomb did a pretty good job in Oklahoma City.

[Man of Distinction]

44. To be clear... the gun's intended use was misused..

The gun was illegally used by a mentally instable person who shouldn't been allowed to own guns or family owning guns. A deep psychological and family background check could prevented that, and needs to be included in the next gun control bill.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Well push for it

I think most will be against that on privacy and cost.

[Man of Distinction]

55. What if the government absorbs the cost involved.

Privacy issues will fall under HIPAA. But these checks are key.

You certainly don't want to give a gun to anybody who has an unstable family house, even if he himself is sane and capable.

[Duckhunter935]

57. The cost is not free

If the government pays for it. How about the government opens NICS to the public and the cost is free? How about free government provided safe and hand gun lock boxes?

On your last point I have no issue with a person having a weapon in the house asong as it is properly secured.

[Duckhunter935]

15. "In fact they pride themselves in hitting their target on the first shot."

As far as accuracy goes, I will let the guys with the accents show it a 600+ yards

[pipoman]

8. Just a demonstration of being out of touch

Gun control, either way, is important to a tiny portion of the population and voters....

[Thinkingabout]

11. Did you read post#2?

[pipoman]

13. Yeah, I noticed there isn't a link

And stand by my claim that gun control is important to a tiny portion of voters. And will go further to say that of that tiny portion of voters far, far more are against gun control than are for it...in about the same proportions as gun control advocacy group membership numbers vs. Gun rights groups membership numbers..

[Thinkingabout]

17. OK, where is your link?

[pipoman]

25. ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

[Thinkingabout]

34. You claim

"And stand by my claim that gun control is important to a tiny portion of voters."

The link you provided is information on states which allow right to carry.

It did not show the claim of a tiny portion of voters.

[pipoman]

41. it demonstrates how every single state, state by state

Has not only not enacted meaningful gun control, but has in fact relaxed gun laws...apparently the gun control movement is anemic at best...those wishing for it seem outnumbered...

[Thinkingabout]

58. Does not show the point of a very small portion for gun control. The gun control movement may not

be making the strides of the NRA but small is not in the number who is for sensible gun control.

What would be your solution on preventing guns in the hands of those who are not capable of controlling their need to kill people?

[pipoman]

59. You can "be for" what you wish

Being for something doesn't make it reasonable or possible. Some politicians like pretending the impossible is possible because they don't believe the people can understand the truth, others aren't interested in pretending and are willing to tell the people the cold hard truth....Bernie is the latter...

[Thinkingabout]

66. Do you have a solution for the gun violence?

[pipoman]

69. Nope...neither does anyone else..truth...

"Man's inhumanity to man" is human reality.

[Thinkingabout]

71. Then why not try something. Don't complain when steps has to be taken to stop the gun violence

Oh, BTW, don't pick fights with those who are trying to get solutions for the gun violence.

[pipoman]

73. "gun violence" will never be stopped....in the complete absence of guns, violence remains

Wasting political capital on the impossible is a monumental waste of political capital.

[Duckhunter935]

65. How about we fully fund

And ensure the states fully furnish correct accurate and timely information to the current system? I think that is a reasonable compromise and should be made to work as intended.

[Duckhunter935]

64. A small minority of states have

But Colorado and New York are mostly not enforceable and are causing a serious backlash.

[aikoaiko]

78. Did you read post #40. Importance is different than preference.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=437466

[Fred Sanders]

9. Attacking Clinton FOR unapologetically supporting gun control? Again, am I on the right site??

Maybe it is better if politicians never change their positions in light of changing times and circumstances and public opinion - would that be better?

Unbelievable.

[betterdemsonly]

12. She doesn't have a strong record supporting issues African Americans and Hispanics care about either

Bill and Hillary were all for broken windows, and 3 strikes you're out laws. They also supported welfare reform, and repealing Glass Steagall. When she become a Senator she supported the bankruptcy bill and she supported cutting childcare for women transitioning from welfare to work.

[Thinkingabout]

18. Doesn't have a strong record supporting issues Africans Americans and Hispanics care about?

Oh, really. Perhaps she does care when a gunman walks into a church with African Americans and kills them.

[pipoman]

29. Who doesn't?

[wyldwolf]

19. Since 2006 there has been over 200 mass killings by firearms in the US

FEB. 14, 2008
5 killed, 16 injured: Dekalb, Ill.

APRIL 3, 2009
13 killed, 4 injured: Binghamton, N.Y.

NOV. 5, 2009
13 killed, 32 injured: Ft. Hood, Texas

FEB. 12, 2010
3 killed, 3 wounded: Huntsville, Ala.

AUG. 3, 2010
8 killed, 2 injured: Manchester, Conn.

OCT. 12, 2011
8 killed, 1 injured: Seal Beach, Calif.

APRIL 2, 2012
7 killed, 3 injured: Oakland

JULY 20, 2012
12 killed, 58 injured: Aurora, Colo.

AUG. 5, 2012
6 killed, 3 injured: Oak Creek, Wis.

SEPT. 28, 2012
6 killed, 2 injured: Minneapolis, Minn.

OCT. 21, 2012
3 dead, 4 injured: Brookfield, Wis.

DEC. 14, 2012
27 killed, one injured: Newtown, Conn.



(26 kids who will NEVER get to vote for anyone! A gunman forces his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. and shoots and kills 20 first graders and six adults. The shooter, Adam Lanza, 20, kills himself at the scene. Lanza also killed his mother at the home they shared, prior to his shooting rampage. In emotional remarks from the White House, President Obama wiped away tears. “Our hearts are broken today,” the president said.)

JUNE 7, 2013
5 killed: Santa Monica

SEPT. 16, 2013
13 killed, 3 injured: Washington, D.C.

APRIL 2, 2014
3 killed; 16 injured: Ft. Hood, Texas

MAY 23, 2014
7 dead, 7 wounded: Isla Vista, Calif.

JUNE 18, 2015
9 dead: Charleston, S.C.

Hillary has changed her position. Bernie has stayed coldly consistent. FUCK BERNIE.

[libdem4life]

20. I am personally against any gun whatsover. But I do note that few if any of the above

were killed with a hunting gun...say, a 22. I'm from a rural state childhood. I understand the dilemma.

Oh and "coldly consistent" is a bit hyperbole, IMO.

[wyldwolf]

21. What's your point?

Even if NONE were killed with a hunting gun, they COULD have been. A gun nut loves guns, period.

Hyperbole? No. Just being honest.

[libdem4life]

27. It's your Opinion. I respect that. Mine is that Zero Tolerance leads to non-socialized

behavior. I'll bring up No Tolerance for abortion...popular in some camps. But studies show that it doesn't take way the need...just pushes one into terrible options. Higher death rate for women when abortion is banned. And yes, they are similar matters.

Same with the 22...and note...if it matters...I'm talking about single or double shot hunting weapons. Those are not human killing machines. So, we can disagree...many do.

And not all who have guns are nuts. Please...that is hyperbole. I was raised where everyone had 2 or 3...they are placed in pickups on gunracks.

[wyldwolf]

31. It isn't my opinion Bernie Ice is taking a Libertarian (State's rights) position on guns

[libdem4life]

36. Post 21 is all opinion and/or hyperbole...especially that a gun owner is a gun nut.

Nothing about politics there...nice try.

[libdem4life]

37. And since this is an opinion site, nothing wrong with that. It's pseudo experts proclaiming

Truth...like someone else we know in the current political scene...is silly.

[pipoman]

38. It is the only position left

The lines have been effectively drawn by SCOTUS. Universal BG checks? Impossible federally only possible at the state level. Assault weapons bans? Impossible federally only possible at the state level. What other impossible federal gun control should he wish to waste time pushing at the expense of other, actual possible leftward movement?

[Duckhunter935]

23. Actually Bernie has changed

Just not as much as the purest controllers want. He has voted for the AWB and magazine restrictions.

[wyldwolf]

24. Bernie Ice - so cold he berns.

[Man from Pickens]

26. your list is outrageously racist

There are mass killings in our cities all the time - but since the victims are mostly poor blacks and the murderers often fit in the same category, they apparently don't count. There have been several mass shootings since the Charleston incident - do dead black people only count when political hay can be made of it?

27 pictures in your mash-up, not one nonwhite person, not one adult male either.

[wyldwolf]

28. The truth must have a racist bias. complain to the LA Times

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

Oh. Feel the bern.

[Man from Pickens]

30. That ain't "the truth"

That's a cherry-picked list of "corporate-media-friendly", recent mass killings.

If you want some actual truth, read up on what the US government has done to Native Americans.

[wyldwolf]

32. "Deadliest U.S. mass shootings" - prove otherwise.

[Man from Pickens]

88. Assuming these are not non-persons, here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_massacre

The deadliest domestic mass killings in the United States were virtually all conducted by the federal government against Native Americans.

[wyldwolf]

89. It doesn't say 'mass killings' it's mass shootings

[pipoman]

33. Consistent in what? Doesn't he have an "F" rating from the NRA?

Or are you talking about the bill which likely has saved the families of victims millions in legal fees usually awarded to people who are sued frivolously....that bill was both progressive and liberal..

[Thinkingabout]

35. He also gets an F rating with his no vote on the Brady Bill from voters.

[pipoman]

43. Excellent, now on to things which are actually important like

Healthcare, jobs, labor, public services, etc...

[wyldwolf]

45. thousands dead from gun fire - but not actually important. Got it.

[pipoman]

50. Thousands dead from angry people's desire to kill others...a human condition

[wyldwolf]

52. with guns (not baseball bats or hammers - *snicker*)

[Duckhunter935]

54. But it is fine to have that with

Alcohol. Funny not a peep ever about the tens of thousands killed every year by that. What positive thing can drinking alcohol be listed?

[wyldwolf]

60. Beer is more dangerous than guns. That's your point?

When laws that lowered the blood alcohol level for driving were enacted, deaths from drunk driving decreased.

[Duckhunter935]

62. Nope both can be very dangerous if misused

Even when the blood alcohol levels have been lowered by the states, many tens of thousands are killed, injured or have medical problems due to alcohol that has really no positive use. But most people are fine with that and never hear a peep from them.

[wyldwolf]

63. Glad you agree. Stricter alcohol laws saved lives.

[Duckhunter935]

67. Why should alcohol be available at all?

I think way to many people are killed and maimed due to alcohol related incidents. I see you think the current level is perfectly acceptable. It is not for me. At least I talk about it unlike many like you.

[wyldwolf]

70. you're questioning whether all alcohol should be banned? :)

'People like me' aren't calling for banning guns, but for more effective gun controls.

Now make your 'alcohol' case.

[Duckhunter935]

72. I think low point alcohol should be allowed

To be sold in federally licensed stores only. I think you should have to go through a background check prior to purchase to make sure you have no alcohol or domestic violence incidents in your past. I think sales should be limited in the amount you can purchase to ensure you do not get inebriated. I think a medical exam should be performed prior to purchase to ensure you are healthy enough to consume it.

Sound kind of familiar?

[wyldwolf]

74. False equivalency

No one walks into a store, buys a bottle of Jack, then uses it to kill 26 kids. Nor do they use a bottle that's been in their cabinet for years.

There are already numerous laws on alcohol consumption that have led to lower death rates - drinking age, hours and places at which it can be sold and consumed, banning of (or limits on) drinking by many types of workers (e.g., transportation) or by people operating machinery, including especially driving.

[Duckhunter935]

75. No, you may be right

Many dozens buy a bottle of jack, wine or beer and mow people down individually every day. It just does not happen in high profile occurrences.

By the way we already have thousands of federal, state and local laws on ownership and use of firearms.

And actually it is a very good equivalent. At least firearms have a beneficial use unlike alcohol.

[wyldwolf]

76. and...

Many dozens buy a bottle of jack, wine or beer and mow people down individually every day.

But those instances are dropping because of numerous laws on alcohol consumption that have led to lower death rates - drinking age, hours and places at which it can be sold and consumed, banning of (or limits on) drinking by many types of workers (e.g., transportation) or by people operating machinery, including especially driving.

Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years, while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades.

Your position only strengthens the case for stricter gun control.

And actually it is a very good equivalent. At least firearms have a beneficial use unlike alcohol.

Alcohol Can...

Lower Your Risk Of Cardiovascular Disease
Lengthen Your Life
Improve Your Libido
Lower The Chance Of Diabetes

... along with many other health benefits.

[pipoman]

87. No, completely false...

"while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades."

A 40 year almost constant decline in violent crime and firearms crime and fatalities....shall I post the graphs yet again?

[wyldwolf]

91. Yes, completely true.

Here are my two claims:

Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years

US traffic fatalities drop sharply, reversing trend

U.S. traffic deaths fell by 4.2 percent during the first half of 2013, according to preliminary figures from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration... Some states, such as Ohio, are on track to have their lowest death tolls since record keeping began on a per-mile basis.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/us-traffic-fatalities-drop-sharply-reversing-trend-8C11503973

Child traffic accident deaths declined 43 percent over last decade: report

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-traffic-accident-deaths-declined-43-percent-over-last-decade-report/

Drunk Driving Death Rates Drop

The nation's alcohol-related traffic death rate has dropped by more than half during the past 20 years, a government study shows.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/drunk-driving-death-rates-drop-but/

Crashes, deaths dropped after tough Va. DUI laws

http://hamptonroads.com/2014/07/crashes-deaths-dropped-after-tough-va-dui-laws

Ten years ago, local lawmakers looked at a high-profile DUI case, listened to law enforcement and said, "Enough is enough."

A bipartisan group drafted more than 70 bills seeking to stiffen penalties and enact near-zero-tolerance for repeat offenders.

Did it work?

DUI fatalities in Virginia have dropped by 21 percent since 2005, according to Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles statistics. Crashes related to drinking and driving have fallen about 30 percent. Convictions for the offense have stayed relatively steady.

Virginia mirrors a national trend. Alcohol-impaired driving fatalities declined 23 percent in the United States between 2005 and 2012, according to the most recent federal statistics.

firearm-related fatalities rose for decades.

Death rates from guns, traffic accidents converging

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/09/guns-traffic-deaths-rates/1784595/

Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years, while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades before leveling off in the past decade, a USA TODAY analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows.

Meanwhile, the rate of firearms deaths has exceeded traffic fatalities in several states, including Arizona, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Michigan, Nevada and Oregon, records show. The rate is equal in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Public safety research data generated since the 1960s spurred "a whole host of strategies," including safer highways and vehicles, graduated licensing programs and drunk-driving prevention.

"We're now seeing how successful that has been," she said. "We have not applied these lessons to firearms, and now we're paying the price."

American Gun Deaths to Exceed Traffic Fatalities by 2015

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015

Guns and cars have long been among the leading causes of non-medical deaths in the U.S. By 2015, firearm fatalities will probably exceed traffic fatalities for the first time, based on data compiled by Bloomberg.
While motor-vehicle deaths dropped 22 percent from 2005 to 2010, gun fatalities are rising again after a low point in 2000, according to the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Shooting deaths in 2015 will probably rise to almost 33,000, and those related to autos will decline to about 32,000, based on the 10-year average trend.

YOU SAID: A 40 year almost constant decline in violent crime and firearms crime and fatalities

Sure, Pew research released similar numbers but pointed out a vast majority of the drop in homicides took place in the 1990s but there's been an uptick in gun violence numbers since 2008.

Here's a chart for you:



States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=&w=1484

[pipoman]

92. Not by anyone's statistics...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150464/americans-believe-crime-worsening.aspx



http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

It is virtually undisputed that violent crime and firearms crime is at 40 year lows even as firearms restrictions have been universally weakened and millions of new guns poured into the market every year. ..

[wyldwolf]

93. You've only confirmed what I said.

I quoted the Pew study, which pointed out a vast majority of the drop in homicides took place in the 1990s but there's been an uptick in gun violence numbers since 2008.

The Pew report covered 1993 to 2011.

But here's the uptick since 2008:

[pipoman]

94. And my point is that gun laws nor the number of guns has anything to do with crime

Which is demonstrated by nearly 40 years of crime and firearms crime reductions while firearm numbers have compounded exponentially and firearms laws have been eased nearly universally.

The statement you made that is completely false is,

"Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years, while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades."

False

[wyldwolf]

95. That wasn't your point, but I'll be happy to follow you down that road

"Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years, while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades."





From the Pew report we keep referring to:

Looking back 50 years, the U.S. gun homicide rate began rising in the 1960s, surged in the 1970s, and hit peaks in 1980 and the early 1990s.


http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

[udbcrzy2]

80. Angry people, careless people too

Some of the gun incidents happen because people are very careless with their guns. A child gets a hold of the gun and kills themselves or another child.

Then we have those who kill because they are committing other crimes like armed robbery. Later it's discovered that the gun was stolen from someones car or a home burglary.

I know there are programs for gun-locking devices, but it appears that there are people who won't use them or for gun safes.

In Ferguson we had protestors over-turning police cars and taking weapons from them before they set them on fire.

[pipoman]

86. There is nobody here disputing that around 10,000 people

Per year are killed by others with guns. A number that has been on a gradual statistical decline for years. During the same years which crime in general, and gun crime in specific has been in decline, tens of millions of new guns have been sold and still decline...gun laws, concealed carry, open carry laws all liberalized still decline....

No, guns are statistically less dangerous than a lot of things in our everyday lives, and this issue is very near settled and interpreted. It has as less chance of a viable challenge than Roe or Brown, imo...so depending in what camp one finds themselves, the first test of a "we should... " statement has to be; is it possible constitutionally based on existing case law? Most of the "we shoulds" here and in the media, and even out of the lips of entrenched politicians who are also attorneys who know better, are simply constitutionally impossible....like it or not..

[wyldwolf]

68. He currently has a D- and had a C as recently as 2006

[tymorial]

39. People grow and evolve. Enough with the hypocrisy.

I would imagine that this might actually cause one to reconsider:

2011 Tucson, Arizona - 6 dead (including a 9 year old girl). 13 injured
2012 Aurora, Colorado - 12 dead (including a 6 year old who was shot _4_ time) 70 injured
2012 Newtown, Connecticut - 27 people dead. 20 were children.
2015 Charleston, South Carolina - 9 people dead.

That is only the short list of tragic shootings that is in the forefront of our minds. The list below represents mass shootings with 4 or more people that most of us probably never heard about. We can debate why but the statistics speak for themselves. It took me 10 minutes to copy and paste that list from the link below. If we added shootings with 3 or less victims, now long would that take me? Far longer than 10 minutes.

The point is this: People are allowed to change their minds. Life is weird like that.. you experience or see something and it changes your views. Life is not black and white. It is gray. It is why I refuse to look only at the (d) or (r) next to someone's name to decide if I like them. I listen to what they have to say. I try to find out why they believe the way they do. Sanders is from Northern New England where gun ownership and hunting remains part of the culture. His moderate stance on this issue is obvious. Do I agree with him? No but I at least endeavor to understand. I do not know if Clinton is sincere. I'd like to believe she is. I also would like to believe that the information below matters. Can we end the hypocrisy? How many of us have held the same opinions all of our lives? I once thought addicts and alcoholics were weak willed losers who should not be congratulated when they get sober. It was something they should have been all along. I held that belief until I became an addict and alcoholic. Now I do whatever I can to help others. Life is gray. End the hypocrisy.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/mass-killings-data-map/2820423

Note: I did have this all lined up in columns but it disappeared upon post. You still get the information though.

Date City State Type Victims
?6/17/2015 Charlesto S.C. Public Killing 9
?6?/?13?/?2015 Columbus Ohio Other 4
?6?/?7?/?2015 Deer Lodge Mont. Family killing 4
?5?/?17?/?2015 Waco Texas Other 9
?5?/?12?/?2015 Tuscon Ariz. Family killing 4
?4?/?16?/?2015 Phoenix Ariz. Family killing 4
?3?/?24?/?2015 Indianapolis Ind. Other 4
?2?/?26?/?2015 Tyrone Mo. Other 7
?2?/?7?/?2015 Douglasville Ga. Family killing 4
?1?/?9?/?2015 San Francisco Calif. Public Killing 4
?12?/?20?/?2014 Rockford Ill. Family killing 4
?12?/?1?/?2014 Cheat Lake W.Va. Other 4
?11?/?21?/?2014 Cleveland Ohio Family killing 5
?11?/?15?/?2014 Springfield Mo. Other 4
?10?/?26?/?2014 Cadiz Ky. Family killing 4
?10?/?24?/?2014 Marysville Wash. Public Killing 4
?9?/?18?/?2014 Bell Fla. Family killing 7
?9?/?2?/?2014 Kansas City Mo. Robbery/burglary 5
?8?/?3?/?2014 Culpeper Va. Family killing 4
?7?/?26?/?2014 Saco Maine Family killing 4
?7?/?9?/?2014 Spring Texas Family killing 6
?6?/?8?/?2014 San Carlos Park Fla. Family killing 4
?5?/?23?/?2014 Isla Vista Calif. Public Killing 6
?2?/?20?/?2014 Alturas Calif. Public Killing 4
?2?/?20?/?2014 Indianapolis Ind. Other 4
?1?/?25?/?2014 Cypress Texas Family killing 4
?1?/?16?/?2014 Spanish Fork Utah Family killing 4
?12?/?1?/?2013 Topeka Kan. Family killing 4
?11?/?23?/?2013 Tulsa Okla. Other 4
?11?/?7?/?2013 Jacksonville Fla. Other 4
?10?/?29?/?2013 Callison S.C. Family killing 5
?10?/?28?/?2013 Terrell Texas Other 5
?10?/?26?/?2013 Phoenix Ariz. Other 4
?10?/?9?/?2013 Paris Texas Other 4
?9?/?20?/?2013 Rice Texas Family killing 4
?9?/?16?/?2013 Washington D.C. Public Killing 12
?9?/?11?/?2013 Crab Orchard Tenn. Robbery/burglary 4
?8?/?14?/?2013 Oklahoma City Okla. Family killing 4
?8?/?7?/?2013 Dallas Texas Family killing 4
?7?/?26?/?2013 Clarksburg W.Va. Other 4
?7?/?26?/?2013 Hialeah Fla. Public Killing 6
?6?/?7?/?2013 Santa Monica Calif. Public Killing 5
?5?/?11?/?2013 Waynesville Ind. Other 4
?4?/?28?/?2013 Ottawa Kan. Family killing 4
?4?/?24?/?2013 Manchester Ill. Family killing 5
?4?/?22?/?2013 Federal Way Wash. Family killing 4
?4?/?18?/?2013 Akron Ohio Robbery/burglary 4
?3?/?13?/?2013 Herkimer N.Y. Public Killing 4
?1?/?19?/?2013 Albuquerque N.M. Family killing 5
?1?/?7?/?2013 Tulsa Okla. Robbery/burglary 4
?12?/?14?/?2012 Newtown Conn. Public Killing 27
?12?/?8?/?2012 Tule River Res Calif. Family killing 4
?12?/?4?/?2012 Detroit Mich. Other 4
?12?/?2?/?2012 Los Angeles Calif. Other 4
?11?/?18?/?2012 New Town N.D. Other 4
?10?/?22?/?2012 Park City Tenn. Robbery/burglary 6
?9?/?27?/?2012 Minneapolis Minn. Public Killing 6
?8?/?5?/?2012 Oak Creek Wis. Public Killing 6
?7?/?20?/?2012 Aurora Colo. Public Killing 12
?7?/?6?/?2012 Newton Falls Ohio Family killing 4
?6?/?2?/?2012 Tempe Ariz. Family killing 4
?5?/?22?/?2012 Salem Ore. Family killing 5
?5?/?20?/?2012 Seattle Wash. Public Killing 5
?5?/?19?/?2012 Leivasy W.Va. Robbery/burglary 4
?5?/?15?/?2012 Port St. John Fla. Family killing 4
?5?/?2?/?2012 Gilbert Ariz. Family killing 4
?4?/?2?/?2012 Oakland Calif. Public Killing 7
?2?/?21?/?2012 Norcross Ga. Family killing 4
?1?/?29?/?2012 Birmingham Ala. Robbery/burglary 5
?1?/?17?/?2012 Villa Park Ill. Family killing 4
?12?/?25?/?2011 Grapevine Texas Family killing 6
?12?/?16?/?2011 Emington Ill. Family killing 4
?12?/?15?/?2011 Gargatha Va. Family killing 4
?11?/?30?/?2011 Bay City Texas Family killing 4
?11?/?20?/?2011 Greensboro N.C. Family killing 5
?10?/?14?/?2011 Liberty S.C. Family killing 4
?10?/?12?/?2011 Seal Beach Calif. Public Killing 8
?9?/?25?/?2011 Laurel Ind. Other 5
?9?/?6?/?2011 Carson City Nev. Public Killing 4
?9?/?5?/?2011 Morgantown W.Va. Public Killing 5
?8?/?27?/?2011 Chesterfield Va. Family killing 4
?8?/?7?/?2011 Copley Town Ohio Family killing 7
?8?/?5?/?2011 Ocala Fla. Family killing 4
?7?/?23?/?2011 Grand Prairie Texas Family killing 5
?7?/?7?/?2011 Wheatland Wyo. Family killing 4
?7?/?7?/?2011 Grand Rapids Mich. Family killing 7
?7?/?3?/?2011 Wagener S.C. Family killing 4
?6?/?19?/?2011 Medford N.Y. Robbery/burglary 4
?6?/?2?/?2011 Yuma Ariz. Family killing 5
?4?/?30?/?2011 West Union Ohio Family killing 4
?4?/?16?/?2011 Oak Harbor Ohio Family killing 4
?2?/?11?/?2011 Los Angeles Calif. Other 4
?1?/?28?/?2011 Minot N.D. Family killing 4
?1?/?8?/?2011 Tucson Ariz. Public Killing 6
?9?/?28?/?2010 Boston Mass. Robbery/burglary 4
?9?/?27?/?2010 Riviera Beach Fla. Family killing 5
?9?/?11?/?2010 Jackson Ky. Family killing 5
?9?/?4?/?2010 Lake Charles La. Family killing 4
?9?/?2?/?2010 Chicago Ill. Other 4
?8?/?28?/?2010 Lake Havasu Ariz. Family killing 5
?8?/?14?/?2010 Buffalo N.Y. Other 4
?8?/?6?/?2010 Prince George's Md. Other 4
?8?/?3?/?2010 Manchester Conn. Public Killing 8
?6?/?6?/?2010 Hialeah Fla. Public Killing 4
?4?/?14?/?2010 Chicago Ill. Family killing 5
?4?/?3?/?2010 North Hwood Calif. Other 4
?3?/?30?/?2010 Washington D.C. Family killing 4
?3?/?25?/?2010 New Orleans La. Family killing 4
?1?/?19?/?2010 Spout Spring Va. Family killing 8
?1?/?17?/?2010 Bellville Texas Family killing 5
?12?/?3?/?2009 Madison Wis. Family killing 4
?11?/?29?/?2009 Parkland Wash. Public Killing 4
?11?/?28?/?2009 Burlingame Kan. Family killing 4
?11?/?26?/?2009 Jupiter Fla. Family killing 4
?11?/?12?/?2009 Hot Springs Ark. Robbery/burglary 5
?11?/?9?/?2009 Oklahoma City Okla. Other 4
?11?/?5?/?2009 Killeen Texas Public Killing 13
?11?/?1?/?2009 Mount Airy N.C. Family killing 4
?8?/?27?/?2009 Lawrenceville Ga. Family killing 4
?6?/?22?/?2009 Kansas City Kan. Family killing 4
?4?/?17?/?2009 Middletown Md. Family killing 4
?4?/?7?/?2009 Green Hill Ala. Family killing 4
?4?/?4?/?2009 Graham Wash. Family killing 5
?4?/?3?/?2009 Binghamton N.Y. Public Killing 13
?3?/?29?/?2009 Sunnyvale Calif. Family killing 5
?3?/?29?/?2009 Carthage N.C. Public Killing 8
?3?/?21?/?2009 Oakland Calif. Other 4
?3?/?16?/?2009 Raytown Mo. Family killing 4
?3?/?15?/?2009 Miami Fla. Family killing 4
?3?/?10?/?2009 Samson Ala. Family killing 10
?3?/?5?/?2009 Cleveland Ohio Family killing 5
?2?/?14?/?2009 Brockport N.Y. Other 4
?1?/?27?/?2009 Wilmington Calif. Family killing 6
?12?/?6?/?2008 Alton Texas Family killing 4
?11?/?2?/?2008 Long Beach Calif. Other 5
?10?/?30?/?2008 Jefferson La. Robbery/burglary 4
?10?/?5?/?2008 Porter Ranch Calif. Family killing 5
?9?/?8?/?2008 Irvington N.J. Robbery/burglary 4
?9?/?2?/?2008 Alger Wash. Public Killing 6
?9?/?1?/?2008 Camden N.J. Family killing 4
?7?/?4?/?2008 Milwaukee Wis. Other 4
?6?/?25?/?2008 Henderson Ky. Public Killing 5
?6?/?1?/?2008 Ingram Texas Family killing 4
?5?/?10?/?2008 Houston Texas Family killing 4
?4?/?26?/?2008 Easley S.C. Family killing 4
?4?/?24?/?2008 Chicago Ill. Robbery/burglary 5
?3?/?24?/?2008 Charlotte N.C. Other 4
?3?/?18?/?2008 Santa Maria Calif. Public Killing 4
?2?/?27?/?2008 Bristol Tenn. Family killing 4
?2?/?23?/?2008 Yorba Linda Calif. Family killing 4
?2?/?14?/?2008 Dekalb Ill. Public Killing 5
?2?/?7?/?2008 Kirkwood Mo. Public Killing 6
?2?/?7?/?2008 Los Angeles Calif. Family killing 4
?2?/?2?/?2008 Cockeysville Md. Family killing 4
?2?/?2?/?2008 Tinley Park Ill. Robbery/burglary 5
?1?/?14?/?2008 Indianapolis Ind. Robbery/burglary 4

[pipoman]

46. "Family killing"....how many "family killings" wouldn't occur in the absence of guns?

My best guess is damned few....

[tymorial]

48. Less not few.

1/3 of the family killings involved means other than shooting. That website allows you to manipulate the statistics. It also shows you a map of the incidents. Virtually all of the non shooting family killings were east of the Mississippi

[udbcrzy2]

79. What is a 'family killing'?

Sorry I had to ask, but what exactly is a family killing? Not sure if it means the whole family was killed or if it means that a family member killed their family.

[tymorial]

82. That is how it is listed on the website. I assume its one or the other

Someone in the family committed the violence which could include the entire family being killed.

[udbcrzy2]

83. It's confusing to me

I think that is what's so confusing to me, but anyway you look at it, it's a killing for sure.

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. Meh. All I see is another exercise in ambiguity.

[TeddyR]

49. As far as I can tell

Hillary didn't actually propose doing anything about gun violence. Instead, she simply said we should "talk about the gun lobby." Hillary knows that gun control is a losing proposition in many states. Sure, there is support for universal background checks, and I believe that will eventually become law, but more than that probably won't get done. And from a national perspective, the best way to lose states like Virginia, North Carolina and Colorado is to adopt some of the extreme controller positions advocated here.

[Duckhunter935]

56. True

[pipoman]

61. Agree

Except ubc's will not be federal law before at least 38 states are willing to ratify an amendment...some states may pass bg checks on private sales...the main reason that won't happen is the cost of implementing these checks..

[-none]

81. Such as make all 'Shall issue', 'May Issue'

"...is to adopt some of the extreme controller positions advocated here."

???

[TeddyR]

84. No, that is not an extreme controller position

If we are talking about a concealed carry license and not the right to possess a firearm. The merits of shall issue concealed carry licenses are certainly open for debate. I would oppose a switch from shall issue to may issue but some jurisdictions would disagree with me. I certainly would oppose any may issue program that prohibits the right to possess firearms.

[sadoldgirl]

85. Should HRC win the nomination

expect a retreat from this position. The gun issue has
become so divisive that she cannot afford to call for
serious gun control without losing a lot of votes.

Right now she tries to use it against Bernie, but even
there it is doubtful that this issue will make a great
difference.

[madokie]

90. That old weathervane is a good indication of what was

not so much as what is to come.
I want a leader not a follower. Thats what got us here. Obama is the first leader we've had since Carter. Bernie will be the next one