I support single-payer, but HRC opposes it. I like her, but I think I'll support Sanders instead.

[gobears10]

Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:54 AM - Edit history (1)

I've been a fan of HRC since 2007. I campaigned for her a bit in 2008, and preferred her healthcare plan to Obama's in 2008. I think Hillary's incredibly experienced, knowledgeable, professional, pragmatic, and charismatic. I would love to have her as the first female president. I think most of the attacks that she's not a true liberal, that she's a Third-Way corporatist, or a DLC Wall Street moderate, etc., are mostly unfounded. She's a strong liberal, and is a fighter, and has come out swinging on LGBT rights, feminism, mass incarceration, systemic racism, gun violence, voter ID laws, and immigration reform. All of which is great and genuinely progressive. On economic issues too, she has been channeling Elizabeth Warren to a great degree.

However, one huge reason why I may not support her and back her is because she opposes single-payer healthcare. Here's what she said on the issue:

You know, I have thought about this, as you might guess, for 15 years and I never seriously considered a single payer system...So I think if you look at most public opinion surveys, even from groups of people who you would think would be pretty positive towards single payer, Americans have a very skeptical attitude. They don’t really know that Medicare is a single payer system. They don’t really think about that. They think about these foreign countries that they hear all these stories about, whether they’re true or not, which they’re often not. And so talking about single payer really is a conversation ender for most Americans, because then they become very nervous about socialized medicine and all the rest of this. So I never really seriously considered it.

Full article: http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/march/hillary_clinton_on_s.php

Hillary also attacked Obama from the right in 2008 because he previously supported single-payer in 2003.

Moreover, Bernie Senators met with Hillary in the 1990s to talk about single-payer healthcare reform, and she completely rebuked his proposal:

They got their meeting at the White House that month, and the two doctors laid out the case for single-payer to the first lady. “She said, ‘You make a convincing case, but is there any force on the face of the earth that could counter the hundreds of millions of the dollars the insurance industry would spend fighting that?’” recalled Himmelstein. “And I said, “How about the president of the United States actually leading the American people?’ and she said, ‘Tell me something real.’ ”

Full article: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/17/1394018/-The-difference-between-Bernie-Sanders-and-Hillary-Clinton-in-one-paragraph

Single-payer is really a huge issue for me. Despite the modest gains of the ACA, 35 million Americans don't have healthcare. Even if all the states expanded Medicaid, there would be a huge coverage gap. Premiums, co-pays, etc., would continue to rise due to mergers between insurance providers and healthcare providers. Our for-profit multi-payer system creates a lot of waste: administrative costs, overhead, costs in advertising and marketing, and costs to generate profits to satisfy CEOs and shareholders. A single-payer system would get rid of all these costs, cover everyone, improve primary and preventative care, and capitalize on economies of scale to negotiate lower prices for prescription drugs and medical services. Healthcare delivery could still be privatized, like it is in Canada.

I haven't heard anything from Hillary lately about moving toward a single-payer, Medicare-for-All system. Or even adding a strong robust public option and encouraging states to experiment with single-payer (as the Congressional Progressive Caucus has called for). We continue to have this wildly inefficient system in which we pay a ridiculous amount for healthcare, but don't get much out of it, and it's a chimera with third party, employer based healthcare, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, the VA, and people with no healthcare whatsoever. The ACA in many ways was a form of corporate welfare, mandating people to purchase insurance company products. It doesn't go far enough.

Hillary's 1993 reform plan, in my opinion, was very weak. Moreover, on the campaign trail, she's focused on reforming the existing system, often calling for market-based reforms:

Hillary Clinton said Wednesday that she wants to build on “what works” in the president’s health care law, suggesting that she may be open to allowing health insurance to be sold across state lines and saying that she would fight for lower prescription drug prices.

Source: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hillary-clinton-health-care-policy-small-business-owners-iowa

I don't think I can support Hillary unless she comes out in favor of at least a strong public option that can morph into single-payer over time if the American people choose it over private insurance. Until then, I'll probably be supporting Bernie Sanders in the primary because he's consistently fought for single-payer, Medicare-for-All healthcare throughout his political career. It is the system that most advanced nations adhere to, and they rank much higher than the U.S. on international rankings of healthcare systems. It also helps businesses too, especially small ones, b/c they don't have to worry about spending money on covering everyone. Our healthcare system has systemic problems, but the Democratic Party establishment is unwilling in addressing it.

It's a shame, because otherwise I really like and admire HRC. But to me, this is the most important issue. I have friends and people close to me in Canada, and they don't have to worry about medical bankruptcy or not being able to get life saving treatment because they can't afford it.

I'll be supporting Bernie Sanders for President unless HRC comes out in favor of single-payer and/or a very strong public option.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I admire your thinking, and welcome to DU!

[rhett o rick]

2. k & r. Thanks for posting. nm

[sabrina 1]

3. I was a supporter of Hillary when she began taking the initiative and running for office

herself, for the NY Senate. However she lost me when she voted for the Iraq War, and from then on, several other issues, including her position on Marriage Equality not so long ago.

I want a leader who gets things right when important decisions need to be made.

I don't want a leader who so often has to admit they were wrong at critical times when leadership and good judgement are necessary for the good of the people.

That is why I support Bernie Sanders.

Welcome to DU.

[BainsBane]

4. She tried to implement single payer, remember?

She doesn't oppose it. She worked for it back in the early 90s. But the fact is the GOP rejected it, as they are working to overturn even Obamacare. The question is what is possible. Do you want someone who makes statements they know they don't have a prayer of implementing, or do you want someone who talks about what they can actually accomplish?

Your claim that she attacked Obama from the right about single payer in 2008 is blatantly false. Obama never proposed single payer during the campaign. The entire dispute between them was over the idea of a mandate, which Obama ended up adopting anyway.

Your quotes do not say Clinton opposes single payer. They show her discussing the political difficulties of it. You tell me how to get single payer through a GOP House and Senate that has introduced hundreds of resolutions to overturn Obamacare. Unlike everyone else, Hillary has actually worked to get single payer implemented. She found out the hard way it wasn't going to happen. If you want that to change, you need to do something about congress. If a politician says they favor single payer, it means nothing without the means to implement it. People can like all kinds of stuff, and it means nothing.

If single payer is a huge issue for you, how is it you so badly state the basic facts? What did you do about it in the early 90s? Did you work to get the Democrats to consider it during the 2008 campaign, or during the discussions of the healthcare bill?

Your concern is noted, but it's hardly novel or necessary. There are about 20,000 threads critical of Clinton on this site.

[sheshe2]

5. +1000

[Bonobo]

6. I thought you supported people's right to speak?

And this OP is very respectful and polite.

Why are you trying to get them to shut up?

[Cheese Sandwich]

7. Fact check time... What was the 1993 Clinton health reform plan ...?

The Clinton health care plan, known officially as the Health Security Act, was a 1993 healthcare reform package proposed by the administration of President Bill Clinton and closely associated with the chair of the task force devising the plan, First Lady of the United States Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Bill Clinton had campaigned heavily on health care in the 1992 U.S. presidential election. The task force was created in January 1993, but its own processes were somewhat controversial and drew litigation. Its goal was to come up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the administration's first-term agenda. A major health care speech was delivered by President Clinton to the U.S. Congress in September 1993. The core element of the proposed plan was an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees.

...

The Clinton health plan required each US citizen and permanent resident alien to become enrolled in a qualified health plan and forbade their disenrollment until covered by another plan. It listed minimum coverages and maximum annual out-of-pocket expenses for each plan. It proposed the establishment of corporate "regional alliances" of health providers to be subject to a fee-for-service schedule.
...

Meanwhile instead of uniting behind the President's original proposal,other Democrats offered a number of competing plans of their own. Some criticized the plan from the left, preferring a single payer system.
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993


That wasn't single payer.

[BainsBane]

8. I understood it was

Bottom line. It ain't happening unless we all get our asses in gear to get a heavy progressive majority in the House and Senate. Anyone claiming otherwise is full of it.

If you're so keen on fact checking, why don't you fact check the OP, which is completely devoid of facts? Or is the only fact that concerns you ensuring Hillary Clinton doesn't become president?

[Cheese Sandwich]

9. I hate to admit this but...

I didn't read the OP. Only read the responses.

[diverdownjt]

41. I agree with you brain...

But...and you knew there would be one....I'm going to support Sanders because he hasn't
given up the way Hillary has. Yes we need to give our Dem. Pres. a congress that
will move things forward and not retreat to barbarism....meanwhile you won't keep us
with you if you don't back what's right and fair for all humans.

I will only support those that have not given up on the rest of us!

[BainsBane]

43. He hasn't "given up"

Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 11:45 AM - Edit history (1)

He's also never tried to implement it. See, I'm not interesting in hypotheticals. They do me nor anyone else in the country one bit of good. You may prefer a president who talks a big game but has little to back it up. I do not. Talk is cheap. What matters is what gets accomplished. Now I get some people look for a politician who reflects themselves back to them. I don't need my views validated. I need stuff to get done.

Sanders, by the way, has said that single payer is not feasible. He supports it theoretically, but acknowledges the climate doesn't exist for it to pass. I really don't see any point of expressing theoretical support when he knows it won't be happening, but I guess it impresses people who don't care about how government actually functions.

You say he hasn't given up, but if were elected people here would turn against him just as they have Obama because the fact is no one can transform the country with speeches and promises. And Sanders legislative record doesn't show he has the ability to get reforms through congress.

I care about what government can do to improve the lives of ordinary people. Without an ability to implement proposals, the best ideas in the world don't mean much Some either are uninterested in what government actually does or are more concerned with having their anger and views validated through public statements. I don't need that. I need to see stuff get done.


I also find his conservatism on gun control and reluctance to address traditional Democratic constituencies concerning. He doesn't seem interested in my vote, so I won't be giving it to him.

[Little Star]

46. Bingo

[kath]

10. Do you have ANY evidence that "she tried to implement single payer"?

IIRC, she had the insurance companies at the table right from the very beginning, seeking their input.
But I would be happy to be shown that my memory is faulty on this, if you have any evidence to the contrary.

[BainsBane]

12. Someone else linked to the Wikipedia article

and says it wasn't single payer as in Medicaid for all but rather an employer mandate. You could easily check such sources yourself. Whatever it was, it was far more comprehensive than Obamacare. The entire OP's statement that she opposes single payer is false. His own evidence points to comments about political realities, not any kind of ideological opposition to it. Then there is the fact he says he liked her plan in 2008, which was nothing like single payer are far more like Obamacare.

I find it fascinating how people are so much more concerned with evidence for my posts than the OP, which is a series of blatantly false statements.

[gobears10]

14. not true

everything I said in the OP is completely fact checked. Please read my responses before making faulty assumptions.

[diverdownjt]

42. I'm with you GOBEARS...N/T

[Scuba]

50. Your OP is factually accurate, despite what Hillary's defenders may claim. Welcome to DU.

[gobears10]

11. not true

Actually this is not true. Clinton's 1993 plan was not a single-payer proposal. It largely revolved around regulating the employer-based, third-party system that we have through establishing "regional alliances" similar to the healthcare exchanges under the Affordable Care Act. The 1993 Clinton plan relied on employer mandates. She tried to work with the insurance companies, but they eventually fired back against the plan.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993#Criticism

Congressional Democrats who were more progressive leaning opposed the more moderate Clinton plan, and pushed for single-payer.

Although universal coverage and other basic principles of President Clinton's health care plan have been widely applauded on Capitol Hill, a brigade of congressional Democrats is fighting for a dark-horse alternative: a government-financed system modeled after Canada's.

Already backed by a third of the House's Democratic majority, the alternative is known as "single-payer" because the government would pay virtually all the medical bills now footed by the tangle of insurance companies, businesses, workers, governments and individuals.

Proponents--led by Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.), a former psychiatrist--assert that the single-payer proposal not only covers everybody simpler and faster than Clinton's complex "managed competition" scheme but also holds down costs better, provides more choice for patients and doctors and assures quality care.

Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-09/news/mn-43945_1_health-care-plan

[BainsBane]

17. If you can look that up

Why do you claim to prefer her 2008 plan to Obama's? Why are you even pretending single payer is a possibility?

You're basing your entire OP on one line in a debate during a campaign in which you claim you supported her and worked for her? Only now suddenly you have developed grave concerns that won't allow you to support her? Give me a fucking break.

[gobears10]

13. HRC opposed single-payer on her website

Source: http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Hillary_Clinton

She seems to be adamantly opposed to non-profit single-payer national health insurance,
as indicated by the words on her campaign web site. See below:

9/17/2007: ” … Now I know my Republican opponents will try to equate health care for all Americans with government run health care. Well don’t let them fool us again. This is not government run. There will be no new bureaucracy. You can keep the doctors you know and trust. You keep the insurance you have if you like it. But this plan expands personal choice and increases competition to keep costs down.
— from Senator Clinton’s campaign website

[BainsBane]

20. That isn't her website

and that statement is not ideological opposition to single payer. It is a defense of the plan in the presidential campaign where you claim you supported her and worked for her.

Don't take me for a fool. I may be only one of 15 people on this site who doesn't loathe Clinton, but I'm not an idiot. You need to be far more convincing if you're going to come at me with this shit. Your entire argument is full of holes, and NONE of your so-called evidence is what you claim it is.

[gobears10]

22. she opposes it

Read my OP. Those are direct quotes from her. She has an ideological opposition to single-payer.

Also, that quote was from her official campaign website in 2007-08.

Here's another article outlining her opposition to single-payer, entitled: "Hillary Clinton Likes Obamacare, And Opposes Single-Payer Health Insurance"

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/hillary-clinton-likes-oba_b_4881399.html

Excerpt:

Hillary Clinton has confirmed, to a paying audience of 20,000 sellers of electronic health records systems, that she supports Obamacare, and opposes single-payer health insurance.

Speaking to a closed-to-the-press meeting of the "HIMSS14" (Healthcare Information and Management Systems Conference 2014) in Orlando Florida on February 26th, she condemned the Canadian and other nations' single-payer healthcare systems by saying, "We don't have one size fits all; our country is quite diverse. What works in New York City won't work in Albuquerque." The presumption is that what works in Canada cannot work here, that local control must trump everything in order to fix what's wrong with American health care.

[BainsBane]

36. That isn't a quote

But given that is your view of Clinton, why did you support her in 2008?

[SunSeeker]

40. She doesn't say she opposes it for "idealogical" reasons.

Indeed, she doesn't say she opposes it at all. What she says is it won't work here. The way our current healthcare system is, she appears to be correct. Healthcare Reform involves goring a lot of powerful people's oxes and raising taxes. That means huge political resistance.

So what good did Bernie touting single payer do for Vermont? I remember him talking on Breakfast with Bernie on the Thom Hartman Show about how he was going to make single payer work for Vermont and be a model for the rest of the country. That was over 2 years ago. It never happened, even though the Governor and Vermont state legislature supported single payer and even passed a law making it possible. But when the hard work started (figuring out a way to pay for it) Bernie didn't follow through:

Where was Bernie Sanders?

When single payer was a theory, a campaign talking point, and progressive dream, Bernie Sanders was all in. When the Governor and legislature enacted it into law, Bernie Sanders touted it as a model for the nation:

“If Vermont can pass a strong single-payer system and show it works well, it will not only be enormously important to this state, it will be a model,” Sanders said in 2013.

Vermont is without a doubt the most liberal state in the union. It is the only state that has single payer healthcare as law. Bernie Sanders was instrumental in fighting for that law. He made lots of speeches advocating it, much as he is doing now running for president.

But when the time came for the hard work, the difficult task of pushing, cajoling, persuading, 'leading the people' as Sanders likes to say, to get Vermonters and the legislature to accept the necessary tax increases to make single payer a reality, Bernie Sanders was AWOL.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/27/1397137/-Bernie-Sanders-Single-Payer-Vermont

[jeff47]

78. Clinton's 2008 campaign website isn't her website.

Seriously?

Have you considered not digging the hole deeper?

[gobears10]

18. hillary attacked obama for having supported single-payer

Here's the video:

In it, Hillary attacks Obama for having expressed support for single-payer healthcare in 2003. She frames it as if supporting single-payer is a bad thing. So no, I am not wrong in my facts. She rejects single-payer, and says her plan includes promoting individual responsibility, mandating employers to grant coverage, and retaining Medicare and Medicaid. She doesn't call for getting rid of profit in the health insurance system, or pushing for Medicare-for-All, which we so desperately need to do.

[BainsBane]

21. During an election campaign in which you said you supported her

Yet only now, suddenly, developed grave concerns.

[gobears10]

23. HRC supported individual mandate

HRC's plan rejected single-payer, and instead, worked within the system to mandate health insurance. She opposed Medicare-for-All, which is what Sanders prefers. She instead preferred the individual mandate, employer-mandate, and preserving Medicare. She didn't want to expand Medicare to everyone to replace the for-profit private health insurance mandate.

Back in 2007 and 2008, I was not a progressive. If I were, I would have supported Dennis Kucinich in the beginning, supported John Edwards on the policy issues after that (b/c his health plan had a strong public option that he said could ultimately morph into single payer), and then, I would back Obama.

But Obama's healthcare plan in 2008 didn't have an individual mandate. His belief was that the reason people didn't get health insurance wasn't b/c they didn't want it, or b/c they weren't forced into paying for it, but b/c they couldn't afford it. He wanted to focus instead on lowering costs first. However, HRC's plan had an individual mandate, which many economists (including Paul Krugman) claimed was necessary to generate a risk pool large enough for insurance companies so that they could cover people will pre-existing conditions. HRC's plan was more "universal" than Obama's, although both fell short of single-payer, Medicare-for-All healthcare.

I've moved much further to the left and have joined the "Elizabeth Warren" wing of the Democratic Party since then.

[passiveporcupine]

29. how about instead of switching tactics here

you address the campaign video the OP posted above?

I think it's pretty obvious who is trying to twist words in that video. Not surprising. Those are her tactics. Why are you afraid to address this?

Now...I suspect a lot of your defensiveness on this issue is that you thought all along that Hillary's Universal plan was a single payer system. It never was and maybe you need time to think about that instead of continuing your attacks and snide responses to the OP.

[BainsBane]

32. It isn't the issue

This OP is supposedly about healthcare. You want to talk about campaign tactics? I don't care.

Look, you like the OP because he supports your opposition to Clinton. You don't care if it makes sense or not, and now you want to change the subject to campaign tactics. Clearly you have no interest in the subject of the OP, or you wouldn't be so anxious to change it to campaign tactics.

So maybe the Clinton plan wasn't precisely single payer, but it was a lot closer than Obamacare is. I was living in Brazil at the time so I didn't follow the whole thing through congress. It was defeated before I came home. You know, I'm trying to figure out why this even matters. No one can possibly believe single payer is a possibility with a GOP House and Senate. Does reality not matter at all?

Why exactly are you pissed off at me? If you read the OP and his claims, you would have to see they don't add up. Yet you decide I'm the one who needs attacking and that observing obvious holes is "defensiveness." I have nothing to be defensive about. I'm not claiming to suddenly have developed grave concerns about someone I worked for based on a clip from a video and quotes that don't support what I claim they do. Single payer or not, it wasn't passed. That is the fact, and none of the OP's evidence of opposition to single payer is in fact ideological opposition at all.

[passiveporcupine]

39. I'm not trying to switch the discussion to campaign tactics

But you said one thing and the video shows it to be wrong. I'm not angry with you and I'm not trying to fight with you. You are the one who came into this thread with false information and swinging with your angry words.

These are your words in this thread:

Give me a fucking break.

Or is the only fact that concerns you ensuring Hillary Clinton doesn't become president?

Don't take me for a fool. I may be only one of 15 people on this site who doesn't loathe Clinton, but I'm not an idiot. You need to be far more convincing if you're going to come at me with this shit. Your entire argument is full of holes, and NONE of your so-called evidence is what you claim it is.

Yet only now, suddenly, developed grave concerns.

I find it fascinating how people are so much more concerned with evidence for my posts than the OP, which is a series of blatantly false statements.

You seem to be the only one who is angry and saying rather rude things. Again, I suspect your belief that Hillary supported single payer (and worked for it) has set you up for challenges that you weren't ready for. Maybe you should take a breather and think about why you are being so defensive here.

I'm really not saying this because I support the OP, and I'm against Clinton. I'm saying this because this doesn't need to be a fight. It could just be a civil conversation and a learning experience for all of us...as all discussion on DU should be.

[Dems to Win]

27. No, Hillary never supported or worked for single payer

I was very involved in the health care issue during the Clinton years, and worked hard on Prop 186 in California which was a ballot initiative trying to implement single payer in CA in 1994. We could not even get Hillary to publicly acknowledge the single payer concept - it just wasn't part of her conversation. It was very frustrating.

Hillary's plan, created by her task force with lots of insurance industry reps, was called 'managed competition.' It's fairly well described in other posts here, and does not differ too much from Obamacare, really.

The Republicans opposed HillaryCare, of course, but they mostly just watched the majority Democrats squabble about it. She couldn't even get it through Democrat-controlled committees to get it to a vote on the floor of the House when the Democrats were in control. Then, once Republicans took over the House in the middle of Clinton's first term, the issue was simply dead until after the election of President Obama. Long wait.

[Doctor_J]

73. But now she opposes it. another "evolution" on her part

She doesn't seem to believe in anything.

[BainsBane]

74. Bullshit

Saying it isn't politically realistic is not opposing it, and saying one supports it means f all when they don't have the means to implement it.

Clinton believes in what all modern Democrats believe in: increasing equality of opportunity, an inclusive society rather than one focused entirely on the interests of the straight, white male upper-middle and middle-class. That is the party some here claim is not left enough, and they long for the days of FDR and JFK when people like them experienced prosperity, while the majority lived as second-class citizens and in crippling poverty.

[Doctor_J]

76. stop these fantasies in your head

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/hillary-clinton-likes-oba_b_4881399.html

"We don't have one size fits all. What works in NYC won't work in Albuquerque."

Really, Hillary? Medicare seems to work in both places.

[PatrickforO]

15. Yet another reason, among many,

to support Bernie Sanders for president.

[PatrickforO]

16. You know, upon reviewing your post, the thing that really gets me is...

They got their meeting at the White House that month, and the two doctors laid out the case for single-payer to the first lady. “She said, ‘You make a convincing case, but is there any force on the face of the earth that could counter the hundreds of millions of the dollars the insurance industry would spend fighting that?’” recalled Himmelstein. “And I said, “How about the president of the United States actually leading the American people?’ and she said, ‘Tell me something real.’ ”

Tell me something real...

Geez.

[BainsBane]

24. That is political reality

If you want single payer, you need to work to change that reality: composition of the House and Senate and public financing of elections, or some other dramatic campaign finance reform. Cause pols can promise you single payer every election for the rest of your life and it isn't going to happen unless there is some dramatic change in govt, and a different president isn't anywhere close to enough. Basic civics should tell you that much. That and the fact the GOP is still working to repeal Obamacare, for the 200th time. Yet what pisses you off is a candidate who is aware of the political realities that you would prefer not to hear about.

Only now does a slight majority of the public even support Obamacare. 90 percent of the public supported enhanced background checks for firearm purchases, and the gun lobby defeated it. Money rules. And all y'all's talk about "corporatists" as though all you need is a new president ignores the reality of how money shapes policy at all levels, House, Senate, local, and the very writing of legislation. You all focus on which personality occupies the White House, while money rots the system to the core.

[gobears10]

26. money in politics...I agree

that's a huge issue. I like how Hillary came strongly against that and wants a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. Bernie also wants public financing of elections on top of that, which is great.

My only problem is this. Is it too hard for Hillary to say, "I prefer a single-payer system as an ultimate end-goal, but we have realities to deal with, and we can't get there immediately? We have to make progress in incremental steps?"

If she tied short-term reforms to a desire for long-term systemic change, with the ultimate long-term goal of achieving single-payer, then progressives would be happy. But we don't like that she's dissed single-payer, dissed candidates for supporting single-payer, and hasn't come out in favor it rhetorically.

[PatrickforO]

30. No, what pisses me off is that the idea of a president leading the American people

in this case did not seem 'real' to Clinton. Because it IS real. Teddy Roosevelt did it. FDR did it. JFK did it.

If you believe, have even ever entertained the notion that one person can change the world, then the statement Clinton made to this man should be anathema to you.

[BainsBane]

35. Teddy nor FDR passed healthcare

despite wanting to. Presidents since TR have wanted to pass national healthcare but haven't been able to do so.

Leadership does not mean lying to the people and promising them the impossible. One person can change certain aspects in the world, but presidents are limited by the constitution. Sanders or any other president will face the same limitations the current one does. If you want profound change, YOU and I need to work for it. Single payer would require a dramatically different congress elected under dramatically different conditions, the sort of thing that sitting back waiting for presidential leadership is never going to achieve.

TR and FDR also presided over apartheid in the US. Remember that when you long for the good old days. Those days were only good for a small minority.

[stillwaiting]

44. Why in the Sam Hell do we have to get a majority in Congress FIRST?

The President has a bully pulpit that any individual member of Congress simply does NOT have.

The President, if truly desiring of Single Payer, could help radically transform the composition of our Congress through the visibility he gives to the issue. Having the President on our side in a way in which he/she FIGHTS for single payer could help us reach the goal of single payer MUCH, MUCH faster.

You have been ridiculously dismissive as you mock and ridicule ideas that I would have thought you would support. You HAVE to believe that something is possible for it to become a reality, and you have simply given up in the most aggressively hostile manner possible. You are fighting AGAINST single payer whether you realize it or not.

[Ed Suspicious]

34. It's all about the money with her. That's what bugs me. Deep down she feels money trumps all.

I can't find it anymore but I remember seeing a video of her talking about being a lawyer and she said something to the effect of not being a real lawyer if you don't represent the banks. I really wish I could find it. It was when I saw that when my dislike for her approach to life solidified.

Better than republicans for sure, but in a way worse than Republicans as well because it takes a Democrat sometimes to mess up the strongest Democratic policies.

[Scuba]

51. Apparently Hillary has no designs on being a leader if elected. Makes sense, considering her ...

... cadre of "advisors" and positions that change depending on the wind.

[pnwmom]

19. She didn't OPPOSE single-payer. She just didn't think it could get passed.

That's why, when told that a President could just "lead" on the issue, she said "tell me something real."

And Bernie Sanders ultimately voted for the ACA because he also realized that, at that time, it was the best we could do.

[gobears10]

25. she opposes it...

on an ideological level too.

read my comment here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=429103

[brooklynite]

57. That's why she tried to implement single payer during the Clinton Administration...right?

[gobears10]

65. nope

she never pushed for single-payer during Clinton Administration, no idea where you got that from

[stillwaiting]

45. She is NOT going to fight for it. Period.

And, we need a President who will do so.

[SunSeeker]

28. Bernie couldn't get single payer in Vermont even with the support of the Governor and legislature.

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20141223/NEWS/312239965

What makes you think he can get it through the U.S. Congress?

[Indepatriot]

33. Every time he speaks he emphasizes that NOTHING of significance will get done unless we stand up and

demand it. HE can't do it alone. We need to be the change we seek.

[DirtyHippyBastard]

37. +1 nt

[SunSeeker]

38. Well we can't do it if Bernie's AWOL when the going gets tough.

Where was Bernie Sanders?

When single payer was a theory, a campaign talking point, and progressive dream, Bernie Sanders was all in. When the Governor and legislature enacted it into law, Bernie Sanders touted it as a model for the nation:

“If Vermont can pass a strong single-payer system and show it works well, it will not only be enormously important to this state, it will be a model,” Sanders said in 2013.

Vermont is without a doubt the most liberal state in the union. It is the only state that has single payer healthcare as law. Bernie Sanders was instrumental in fighting for that law. He made lots of speeches advocating it, much as he is doing now running for president.

But when the time came for the hard work, the difficult task of pushing, cajoling, persuading, 'leading the people' as Sanders likes to say, to get Vermonters and the legislature to accept the necessary tax increases to make single payer a reality, Bernie Sanders was AWOL.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/27/1397137/-Bernie-Sanders-Single-Payer-Vermont

[Enthusiast]

48. That article is nothing more than a bullshit hit piece on Bernie.

Bernie has nothing whatever to do with Vermont legislation.

We know Bernie favors single payer nationwide. It wouldn't matter how tough he got, he doesn't control the Vermont legislature.

[SunSeeker]

59. What is incorrect in the article? Bernie walked away from the hard work.

If he can't influence the most progressive state legislature in the US, how do you expect him to move Congress to give us single payer?

Why didn't he get on the Thom Hartman Show and talk about how it makes sense to raise taxes in Vermont to pay for single payer? The legislature would have gone for the tax increase if there was public support. Why didn't Bernie try to raise that public support?

[questionseverything]

66. it wold be much harder to get single payer on the state level

because states can not do the first thing necessary , control prices of care and drugs

[SunSeeker]

67. So why did Bernie say Vermont's single payer would be "the model for the US"?

Was he wrong?

And if he can't talk the most liberal state in the US into a tax increase of $3 Billion so they can save $5 Billion in insurance premiums, how's he going to convince the US Congress?

[questionseverything]

70. as you have been told many times in this thread

bernie is not a state senator

bottom line is, i trust bernie to listen to my concerns and fight for me and mine

no one else on the national level is doing that

[SunSeeker]

71. There are plenty of people fighting for you on the national level. And getting results.

Bernie's single payer effort in Vermont fizzled because no one faught for the tax increase needed, including Bernie. If he could not or would not try to convince the most liberal electorate in the country to fund their "model for the US" single payer system, why do you think he can accomplish it on the national level?

[Enthusiast]

68. Get lost

[Enthusiast]

49. You mischaracterize the very article you posted.

Contrary to your assertions, the reason Vermont doesn't have single payer is because the Governor doesn't support it. Bernie Sanders has nothing to do with it. You are just trying (and failing) to smear Bernie.

[SunSeeker]

55. "Bernie has nothing to do with it."

Exactly. When it came to raising taxes to pay for single payer, everyone got weak in the knees and wanted nothing to do with it, including Bernie.

Why didn't he hold a bunch of 10,000-person speeches explaining that although their taxes will go, up they'll actually save money because they won't be paying as much for healthcare? Was he already worried about how a big tax increase would look for his presidential bid?

[jeff47]

79. Sanders isn't a state legislator. How, specifically, is he responsible for passing it?

Oh wait, I was asking you for logical consistency. My bad.

[TheKentuckian]

54. Please elaborate on Sanders' position and authority in state government

Did McConnell and Paul implement Kynect in Kentucky?

Is Clinton accountable for "Stop and Frisk"?

Does it make sense when Shumlin states his state can't afford to save 2 billion dollars a year? If so how? "We can't afford it" isn't a logical statement there are other forces that make it an uphill battle but "affordable" can't be one of them because he acknowledges that the systemic savings actually would be massive like almost 50%.
If you can't afford 2.5 or 3 billion how the hell do you afford 5?

[SunSeeker]

56. See post 55 above. nt

[Man of Distinction]

61. Uh... Shumlin didn't even give it an effort.

He gave up much too quickly.

[SunSeeker]

62. Neither did Bernie.

Why didn't Bernie hold rallies to get people behind the tax increase?

[Man of Distinction]

63. Because Bernie isn't a state Senator?

He can only do so much. He created a provision to try to set up single payer in Vermont as an experment. It was intentionally sabotaged by Shumlin because he didn't want to raise taxes on the 1%.

Typical Third Wayer.

[SunSeeker]

64. Bernie is Vermont's Senator.

He was quite vocal in getting the law passed, but clammed up when it came for the tax hike. How do you expect a guy like Shumlin to show courage when even Bernie wouldn't push for a tax increase?

It was not just a local issue either. The failure in Vermont totally took the wind out of the single payer effort here in CA. So much for what Bernie touted would be a "model for the US."

[jeff47]

80. Ok, how many votes does Sanders cast in the state government?

Zero.

Boy, that means it's totally up to Sanders to pass a state law.

Btw, your desperation is showing.

[SunSeeker]

82. How about him showing some leadership?

He is Vermont's Senator, he has influence on the voters of Vermont, no? If he done a few well-attended rallies to support the funding of single payer, maybe that would have given Shumlin and the legislature courage to pass the taxes.

But when Bernie, after pushing the legislature to pass the single payer law and touting it as the "model for the US," then goes silent when it comes to the $3 Billion in taxes to fund it, he basically left Shumlin and the legislature twisting in the wind.

[jeff47]

83. Leadership in the government he is not a part of.

Uh-huh.

Keep flailing. It's entertaining.

[SunSeeker]

85. He represents the entire state of Vermont. Suddenly he has no voice in Vermont single payer?

"Not his job" is all you've got?

[passiveporcupine]

31. The Majority of the people in the US do support single payer

and that majority is growing. I don't think single payer would have passed for Obama, and he knew it. He knew the insurance companies would kill his attempt to pass ACA if he offered a public option. Yes, he was just being pragmatic, so he could get "something" done. And so was Hillary in the past. But the winds are changing and the people are starting to wake up to the problems with our current "for profit" systems of health insurance. We need to keep pushing for single payer until it happens. I don't know what a Sanders president could do in that regard, in four years, or eight, but I know he's willing to fight for it now and Hillary is not.

Sometimes you need to put your pragmatism away and stand firm on what you know is right.

Bernie is a pragmatist too. He's not going to beat a dead horse, but single payer or a public option is NOT a dead horse. It's going to happen, even if just in a series of small changes. I think the politicians would fight a lot harder for it if the people actually stood up and backed them on it. And our voices are growing. We need to help change this system. A President cannot do this alone. But we do need a President that is willing to fight for it. Without that we don't stand a chance either.

[Enthusiast]

47. Health insurance profit = pure waste

Open to allowing health insurance to be sold across state lines? I keep hearing that particular proposal by Republicans.

US health care should be completely removed from the profit motive. Do it however you can, just get it done.

[Scuba]

52. The insurance companies take a nice chunk of our health care dollars while adding no value ...

... to the process of delivering care.

Using our precious healthcare dollars to fatten the bank accounts of health insurance investors in London, Tokyo and Hong Kong is not just bad fiscal policy, it's immoral.

[Enthusiast]

53. You are so correct. Will the TPP prohibit single payer in the USA?

Single payer would hurt the bottom line of overseas health insurance investors. Frightening prospect.

[Hoyt]

77. No. Besides, I don't think Malaysian Health will get on the Exchanges.

Last edited Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

[brooklynite]

58. and if Sanders loses to the Republicans, are you prepared to have your "not single-payer" repealed?

[Darb]

60. I'll alert the media.

[Babel_17]

72. Ironically, HRC likely favors single payer as much as anyone

She plays politics at the highest level. In some ways it's about managing your chips, like in a winner take all Texas hold 'em championship.

The Clintons and our party learned the cost to ones pile of chips the first time HRC led the fight for health care reform, back in the '90s. It cost us the House of Representatives, and also the Senate. It was brutal, and lots of our House members were more like chess pieces as they willingly accepted their likely defeat at reelection by voting for the reform. So we lost Congress and didn't get the reforms.

It couldn't be predicted, but you could say the Republicans managed their chips better. They could have went along with the reforms and won concessions for their side. Instead they gambled that they could get away with crashing it down, and use that to win the House.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993

So, it's understandable if HRC sees that she has to play a longer, more cautious, game.

Sanders doesn't have that legacy and is working to get elected with a different mandate than the Clintons had. The Clintons could be demonized because they got elected as moderates but their reforms were depicted as revolutionary and radical.

That tactic couldn't be used against a Sanders presidency. He'd be proposing what he ran on. To be fair, it should be noted that health care reform was the Undiscovered Country back then. The Clinton's could never have campaigned on what it would entail. Now, thanks to the progress of the ACA, people have a much better understanding of what the health care geeks are talking about. Single Payer? Yes, please!

[2banon]

75. kickity kick

[MrMickeysMom]

81. It's an economic issue as well… Look at how much of our GDP is taken up by privately administered...

insurance. We simply cannot afford the cost of continuing to have private insurers administrate over managed care.

Hillary's earliest attempts in giving people a choice under managed care was the last time I considered her desire to provide a right to health management. It failed and ever since then, we've failed one way or another by the way big pharma and health insurance have turned into the REAL death panel of sick care.

It's sickening that we haven't given an ear to Medicare for All. Most people understand that Medicare works quite well, given the need to eliminate very fixable issues. I see it as a 40 year provider of health care delivery services. I see patients every day who have to make choices that no one should have to make. I don't see the ones who have been left out since leaving acute care, where they show up in the emergency room. Talk about wasting time, money and quality of life.

Bernie Sanders has understood this very thing, which is why I've been supporting him. We simply cannot continue the path we are on.

Welcome to DU

[cprise]

84. K&R