'Bernie Sanders Can Become President' Has Replaced 'I Like Him, But He Can't Win'

[Hepburn]

How many time have you heard the phrase, "I like Bernie Sanders, but he can't win," uttered by people who identify themselves as progressives? The facts, however, illustrate that "Bernie Sanders can win" and nobody in politics foreshadowed the Vermont Senator's latest surge in both Iowa and New Hampshire. He recently raised $15 million in just two months, and his campaign reports that "Nearly 87 percent of the total amount raised during the quarter came from the donors who contributed $250 or less." While Clinton's team isn't worried, they should be, primarily because Hillary Clinton already lost a presidential race (spending $229.4 million in the losing effort) and finished behind both Obama and John Edwards in the 2008 Iowa Caucus.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-can-become-president-has-replaced-i-like-him-but-he-cant-win_b_7733476.html

That was me. I always liked Bernie -- by far the most -- on the issues. But...I felt that he could not win the General Election. Then I thought back to Obama. Back then, I liked Obama the best, but did not think we could elect him because of the racial backlash that would result if he were nominated. I was wrong then and I was wrong when Bernie declared by thinking he could not be elected. IMO, Bernie can win the General Election.

I FULLY SUPPORT BERNIE SANDERS!!!!! HE CAN WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION!!!!!

[RussBLib]

1. anything is possible in this crazy world

looking forward to some debates

[Hepburn]

4. It's not that I am against Hillary, I am for Bernie.

IMO, there is a difference. I don't dislike Hillary, I simply like Bernie better. If Hillary wins the nomination, obviously I will support her in the General Election. I can get on her bandwagon without hesitation at that point. I just like Bernie better. He reminds of FDR and HST. Also: He is very liberal.

[appalachiablue]

10. Your thinking is vey similar to mine & I like your Scottie. Bernie can & will win!

K & R

Go Bernie, Feel the Bern!

JEB!= Just Elect Bernie!

[Hepburn]

85. My Scottie likes you!

I asked her and she responded, "Woof!" Translation: I love the DU!

I really do think that Bernie can win.

First, the nation has grayed -- and he is one of us "oldies."

Second, what you see, is what you get.

Third, people are fed up with getting screwed over by those with $$$$.

And...for the few days, I have had people who I would have never thought could be pro-Bernie, tell me they are supporting him.

I hope he gets into the highest office on the land...we NEED him.

[appalachiablue]

93. Love pooches, had 2 spaniels, a cocker girl red & white with freckles & a little red Tibetian fella.

Please give your Scottie a big hug!

Bernie is one of many greys, wise and experienced yet in some ways he seems much younger than his age which others have also remarked. It's fairly amazing that not only is he followed by the young, he's not ridiculed that I've seen except for some juveniles perhaps.

He definitely has the people and country's welfare as priority and all of his excellent qualities are detected like his authenticity, intelligence, clear messaging, patience and ability to interact with people of all ages and backgrounds. And it's genuine and natural which people see.

He makes many other politicians pale the more I get to know of him. No slick, glad hander for sure, with a very sharp mind and stamina that is impressive. As he said to George Stephanopolous who brought up his age, "I was a long distance runner in my youth".

We do need him, and I certainly hope he will make it in this pivotal time in our history!
Do Not Underestimate Bernie Sanders.

[RKP5637]

20. Exactly the same here. I don't dislike either of them, and I will support 1000% whomever

the democratic nominee is. I just like Bernie because he does remind me of FDR and to me he's a breath of fresh air. Hillary reminds me of the establishment candidate. Bernie reminds me of something new.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. That's not allowed. You have to love one and hate the other....

Otherwise you aren't gonna get a cookie.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

64. "Bernie Sanders Can Become President" - change "can" to "will" and then you have it right. Go Bernie!

[wordpix]

69. agree

[itsrobert]

2. I like Bernie Sanders, but he can't win

Reality check.

[Hepburn]

5. I said the same about Obama and I was wrong. N/t

[itsrobert]

6. I didn't, and I was right

Going for two in a row?

[SheilaT]

8. You were right, but for a very long time in 2007 and into 2008

lots of people said that Obama couldn't win.

Those same people were assuring us that Hillary was inevitable, just as they have been now.

[LordGlenconner]

22. Obama's success as an underdog ensures Bernie will be president

[Hepburn]

15. No, learning from the past. n/t

[chknltl]

21. If enough people say this, it might work to sink him. Great plan huh? NT

[Thinkingabout]

3. To win in the primaries one has to get enough delegates to win. One or two state wins is

not enough, Hillary won more than a couple of states in 2008, got off to a bad start in the campaign and was running against Obama. Obama sold himself to the win. Hillary will have to sell herself. Bernie will have to sell himself. There is not a coronation for Hillary and there will not be for Bernie either.

[SwampG8r]

17. What pray tell

Does she have left to sell?

[Scuba]

97. Her soul? Oh, wait ...

[A Simple Game]

24. Do I sense someone starting to hedge their bet?

Or would saying I see a chink in the armor be more appropriate?

[Gothmog]

7. I have yet to see a good explanation as to how Sanders is a viable general election candidate

The Kochs will be spending $889 million and each of the probable GOP nominees should be able to raise another billion dollars. I do not understand how Sanders intend to compete against such resources.

[SheilaT]

9. By that logic Hillary Clinton is also not a viable general election candidate.

No Democrat is, because no Democrat is ever going to outraise the Koch Brothers and their ilk.

[appalachiablue]

12. True, and trust can't be bought. Sanders resounds with it!

Sanders 2016!

Feel the Bern!

K & R

[Gothmog]

103. I do not believe this to be the case in that the Clintons are very good at raising funds

There is some speculation that the Clinton will raise up to $2.5 billion and that amount would allow her to be competitive.

[A Simple Game]

26. By your reasoning you are wasting your time posting. If your reasoning is true

Bernie has no chance of beating Hillary in the primaries.

One of the main things Bernie is trying to do is prove money can't buy votes. I hope he is right. Seem you know different.

[Maedhros]

41. I am always surprised by posters on DU who essentially advocate giving up when it comes

to corporate control of our electoral system.

"We need to back the corporate candidate with all the corporate money, because it's the only way to win. But trust us - our corporate candidate will shed the puppet strings and work for the people."

Naive in the extreme, and pretty damned lazy.

[brooklynite]

47. I am always surprised by posters on DU who essentially advocate ignoring the rules

that everyone else is playing buy.

If you believe that Bernie Sanders can attract 18 million votes nationwide in the Primary, and 66 million votes nationwide in the General, on a shoestring budget and a handful of speeches and debate performances, I think you're being very naive. even word of mouth and social media only get you so far. If person A hears Sanders and tells persons B and C, they may be intrigued, but it's impossible to reach out to a national electorate without a substantial supply of cash, if for no other reason than to have staff nationwide working full time to get the message out.

[questionseverything]

66. show me the math that elects hillary when 29% of dems will NEVER vote for her

http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2015/150629/

less than 800 voters were polled, i can not find anything on their dem/repub breakdown but of the dems polled 29% that would never support hillary is huge

i am not a hillary supporter but i was shocked to see that many dems would NEVER support her

i honestly do not believe she can win the general

[Dr Hobbitstein]

86. That was a New Jersey poll.

So, 29% of New Jersey Dems. Not reflective of the nation.

Less than 800 total (with an unknown R to D ratio) is a small sample size.

[questionseverything]

88. i agree it is a small sample

but only state polls matter...national polls mean nothing

having 29% of the dem base saying they will NEVER support her is really something the dem party needs to look at

we can not win if we lose anywhr near 29% of the dem base

i am from central illinois and i know repubs here want hillary to be the nominee..they feel it is the sure fire path to victory as they have raised their kids to hate the clintons for 25 plus years

[Dr Hobbitstein]

89. Buy it's not 29% of the Dem base.

It's 29% of an unknown amount of Dems polled in New Jersey.

[bornskeptic]

148. I think you're misreading it.

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton retains her lead over other prospective nominees. Almost two-thirds (63%) of registered Democrats favor her over Vermont senator Bernie Sanders (15%) and Martin O’Malley (3%). At the same time, 29 percent of Democrats categorically reject the candidacy of Hillary Clinton. However, it is important to note that as compared with Republicans, a far smaller percentage of Democrats said they could identify someone whom they would never support in the general election. One-in-five (19%) registered Democrats compared with half (52%) of registered Republicans feel strongly about saying no to one of their own.

I see it as saying 29% would never vote for her in the primary. It strikes me as a very poorly written article, but it appears to say that 19% would refuse to vote for some Democratic candidate, so that would also include Democrats who wouldn't vote for Sanders, so there couldn't be 29% who wouldn't vote for Clinton.

[questionseverything]

149. i am looking at the 4th box of questions not the article

PRESDB Is there anyone I just mentioned who you would NEVER support for president, regardless who they ran against? If yes, ask who [precoded] [N = 64]

Lincoln Chafee


14%

Hillary Clinton


29%

Martin O’Maley


24%

Bernie Sanders


11%

Wouldn’t vote (vol)


2%

Other (vol)


13%

DK/Refused (vol)


7%

//////////////////////////

the question is clear...who would you never support for pres no matter who they ran against

btw i never believe/trust what someone else tells me numbers mean, i always dig thru and decide for myself

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

96. Like I have said before.

Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.

Then Bernie will win

[frylock]

129. "...that everyone else is playing buy."

Your Freudian slip is showing.

[Dustlawyer]

65. +1!!! If Bernie wins the primary he will attract most Democrats to his side right there.

That will increase his funding to a level to enable an outreach to the rest of the electorate. His message will do the rest. When the juxtaposition of Bernie and his policies are held against whatever clown wins the battle of the clowns, Bernie will win! They have no policies of their own, "No" is not a policy. Bernie will have huge exposure just winning the primary and will kill the clown(s) in the debates.

[Maedhros]

71. I am especially appalled at the implication that we should let fundraising dollars determine

our candidate, instead of votes.

Why don't we just abolish the primary and award the nomination to the candidate who accrues the largest war chest?

[Dustlawyer]

72. You know we have a serious problem when the guage of a candidate is based on how much

bribe money (campaign donations) each candidate racks up every reporting period!

[arcane1]

78. I agree, and it has no place on DU. Letting republicans always write the rules is a losing idea.

And we will never have true progress as long as we agree to keep playing their game.

When you hear someone say "we need the one who can raise the most money" you're hearing "I'm advocating doing the republican's work for them".

Not me!

[Indepatriot]

74. You must of been livid when HRC kept moving the goalposts in the 08 primaries.

[Gothmog]

102. We are in the primary process and viability in the general election is a valid criteria

I am not convinced that Sanders is viable in the general election but I do believe that Hillary Clinton can raise the funds necessary to compete against the Kochs. I would love to see proof to the contrary but speculation and vague theories that money does not matter are not convincing.

Hillary Clinton is popular in Texas and right now that is important. I also believe the she can raise the funds necessary to compete. I have no confidence that Sander will be able to raise sufficient funds to be viable

[arcane1]

77. That applies to EVERY candidate. Why single out the one?

The Kochs are going to spend that money regardless of whom we nominate.

I, for one, will not surrender to their money.

[Gothmog]

101. It is relevant because Hillary Clinton can raise sufficient funds to keep the contest close

For better or worse, Hillary Clinton has the best chance of raising the funds necessary to compete against the Kochs

[rhett o rick]

94. My opinion is that Sen Sanders has a better chance against the GOP because they

know all HRC's baggage, esp the stuff where she has agree with them. Sen Sanders on the other hand really connects with the people and I think he will attract Republicans to vote for him. People are looking for integrity.

[Gothmog]

100. How will Sanders raise sufficient funds to compete against the Kochs and the RNC nominee?

I hate Citizens United but even President Obama had to use a super pac in 2012 to keep the race close. I do not see Sanders being viable in a general election contest

[rhett o rick]

104. You fail to explain why you don't think he is a viable candidate.

Looks to me like your point is that if you don't have money, you can't win an election. That well may be but I think there are a lot of Americans ready to give it a try.

I will not yield to Citizens United and vote for a candidate that is supported by the billionaire olgarchs. It's time to draw the line.

[Gothmog]

120. Knife to a gunfight

This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine

Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig, who founded a Super Pac to end Super Pacs, said Sanders’ renouncing Super Pacs is tantamount to “bringing a knife to a gunfight”.

“I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that he’s going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances – and he’s an enormously important progressive voice,” Lessig said.

President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac, The super pacs associated with Clinton raised $24 million and so Clinton raised $70 this quarter.

[rhett o rick]

122. You claim not to like super pac's but apparently willing to accept their support of your

candidate. At some point principles have to prevail. We must stop selling-out to the billionaires and justifying it but claiming we need them to win. That thinking got us here.

Goldman-Sachs CEO said he would accept either HRC or Jeb. That should be a real clue that both answer to the wealthy.

[Gothmog]

123. I live in the real world as did President Obama when he used a super pac

President Obama is also against Citizens United but under the current law, one can not unilateraly disarm and give the GOP too large of advantage. I still dislike super pacs and Citizen United but I live in the real world and know that to win, the Democratic nominee will have to try to keep the playing ground level.

Sanders is a good guy and I like him but he is not viable in a general election fight under the system that currently exists. Hillary Clinton is the only Democratic candidate who can hopefully raise the funds necessary to keep the election close. I am not willing to go into a gun fight with a knife which is what will happen if Sanders is not able to raise the funds to be viable.

Both Sanders and Clinton have promised to impose a litmus test for SCOTUS justices with respect to Citizens United and if Clinton wins we may be able to make the system less unfair.

[frylock]

130. Does the Real World that you live in include social media?

Because that's where Sanders is destroying the competition.

[Gothmog]

133. No one really believes that social media will out pace or negate the effect of paid media

Do you really believe that social media by itself is sufficient to overcome the funding disadvantage that Sanders will face in the general election?? I am active with my county party and I am not aware of any research that backs up the concept that social media by itself can win elections. I have read much of the research from the experts as to how to get out the vote and motivate voters and social media does not work by itself. Politicians use TV ads in general and negatives ads in particular because they work. If you have some real research that shows that social media can work as you state, please post the link.

I was too young to vote in 1972 but I remember how Nixon and the Committee to Re-Elect the President (CREP) painted McGovern as being out of touch and out of the mainstream. The Kochs and the RNC will be able to spend many millions on negative advertising to paint Sanders as out of touch and such advertising will be effective. Again, politicians use TV advertising in general and negative ads in particular because these ads work.

This is the primary process and many voters like myself are looking at the viability of the candidates. I have seen no proof that Sanders is viable in the general election.

[frylock]

134. We are in an era where fewer people are watching broadcast television..

cutting the cable, and opting for services like Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu. How do those negative ads reach them? Moreover, the folks that are watching TV are increasingly using DVRs to record their favorite shows, and skip right on through all those commercials.

No, I don't have a link to back up my theory, but I do know that comparing today's environment to strategies implemented in 1972 is foolhardy, and I encourage the Clinton people to continue doing what they are doing.

[Gothmog]

135. The DNC and the State party keep on hold workshops on voter turnout and GOTV

I have seen no reports or studies backing your theory up but have seen the research showing that traditional media works and what methods work for GOTV. Your theory has yet to be proven in the real world.

Again, in the real world, politicians pay for TV and radio ads because these ads work. There are some interesting studies that show that some forms of advertising are far more effective or less effective than others. For example robocalls are not that effective according to the research but such calls are cheaper than TV ads.

We are in the primary process and I have yet to see anything that convinces me that Sanders would be a viable general election candidate. If Sanders wants to win over the base of the Democratic party, he will have to convince the base that he can win while being drastically outspent by the Kochs and the GOP candidate.

[frylock]

136. The Real World™ is constantly changing..

I'll ask you the same question I've asked over a dozen supporters of Clinton, and have yet to receive a reply; do you have a Facebook account?

[Gothmog]

139. Yes, I have a facebook account

I have not received anything from Sanders yet but I am getting material from Clinton supporters who in my county party

[frylock]

142. Then you may (or may not) want to like Sanders' page..

and when a trending story about Sanders is posted, take a look at all those Real World denizens, and the overwhelming support that's being posted. People are done with the status quo, DONE, and they are looking for significant change that pandering rhetoric or a polished video is not going to provide.

[Gothmog]

143. Again, I am active with my county party and the state party

I get a ton of stuff from these sources and some people at Battleground Texas and Emily's List. Right now, I still have yet to see anything that changes my opinion on Sanders viability. You are welcome to rely on social media and I will rely on my sources.

BTW, you know that there is a ton of research done as to how to motivate voters and what methods are effective at GOTV. Social media has a role but has not proven that effective according to the workshops/seminars that I have attended. The last seminar that I attended was a year ago but I will be at meeting of a number of county chairs later in July where research like will be discussed.

I am glad that you are happy with Sanders but do not expect me to ignore the facts and the real world without some real proof or evidence. I am very concerned about the SCOTUS because this election will control the direction of the court for a generation.

[frylock]

144. Sanders is going to make some excellent choices for SCJ.

[Gothmog]

145. If he is viable in the general election

Again, the SCOTUS is too important to me to risk supporting a candidate on the basis of an untested theory that money does not matter and that it is okay to be outspent by hugh margins. I have seen nothing to convince me that this is a sound theory.

[frylock]

146. ffs if Sanders wins the Democratic primary..

he mops the floor with whatever goat the GOP puts up.

[rhett o rick]

138. "Real World" is where we have 22% of American children living in poverty. That's the real world

you want to continue. A vote for the billionaire's choice will see that statistic get worse. Your "Real World" is going to see SS and Medicare cut, but I guess that's a small price to pay for getting to say you won the election. Voting for the billionaire's choice means you condone the current "Real World."

It's time to stand up to the oligarchs and their lackeys.

[Gothmog]

140. I am not willing to risk the loss of the SCOTUS for untested theories

This election will decide the control of the SCOTUS for a generation

[Sheepshank]

11. I am not sure I like Bernie's speech style....it feels like it feeds frustration, like impotent rage

He enrages the population with the same old economic issues of the rich and Wall street getting richer while the rest of the population languishes. He is good at articulating their frustrations, but other than taxing the rich, I never seem to hear good tangible (by that I mean Congressional passable) policies.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that senses total negativity from him.

He lacks a clear path to resolve social issues that cannot be fixed by taxing the richest persons.

He does not like war, that's good. He wants free secondary education, that's good. He wants free or socialized health care, that's good. But isn't that what the rest of the Dem candidates also wants?

He's ok, but I don't think he can win a general election. At least not from what I have seen so far.

[jeff47]

14. No.

He does not like war, that's good. He wants free secondary education, that's good. He wants free or socialized health care, that's good. But isn't that what the rest of the Dem candidates also wants?

No.

[awoke_in_2003]

30. +1000. nt

[BrotherIvan]

31. +1

I would like to hear the answer. They both are campaigning on those things? Huh? I see often that some posters have filled in the blanks and so their candidate seems much more liberal than she is. Hillary will end racism and Bernie only talks about economics! I fail to see how where that conclusion has any logic whatsoever, but I see it all around DU.

[A Simple Game]

28. I think it's been mentioned a few times that at least one of the other Dems has voted for war. n/t

[Sheepshank]

29. so did Bernie.

threads on this over the weekend...but Bernie had good reasons apparently , so it's all ok.


oh oh oh...here's one that didn't get mentioned over the weekend:

Despite his own claims, Sanders has not been an antiwar leader. Ever since he won election to the House, he has taken either equivocal positions on U.S. wars or outright supported them. His hawkish positions -- especially his decision to support Bill Clinton�s 1999 Kosovo War -- drove one of his key advisers, Jeremy Brecher, to resign from his staff. Brecher wrote in his resignation letter, �Is there a moral limit to the military violence you are willing to participate in or support?

So outraged were peace activists over Sanders� support of the Kosovo War that they occupied his office in 1999. Sanders had them arrested. Under the Bush regime, Sanders� militarism has only grown worse. While he called for alternative approaches to the war on Afghanistan, he failed to join the sole Democrat, Barbara Lee, to vote against Congress� resolution that gave George Bush a blank check to launch war on any country he deemed connected to the September 11 attacks.

Ever since, he has voted for appropriations bills to fund the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, despite their horrific toll on the occupied peoples as well as U.S. soldiers. �

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Nov06/Smith15.htm

[BrotherIvan]

33. So you're glossing over the "support Bill Clinton" part?

You are holding Sanders to a bar higher than Mt. Everest compared to what you are willing to hold your candidate to. She voted for the IWR, but that was a long time ago! She's evolved!

And when Barbara Lee becomes his running mate, all will be well!!

[Sheepshank]

39. I take it, you are in the camp that his vote is ok then? n/t

[BrotherIvan]

44. I actually think Kosovo is a tough call

I think that at the time, people were being slaughtered and that is very difficult to stand by and watch. Take what happened in Rwanda, I think that the US should have gone there if they could have done any good. But I don't like putting soldiers in harm's way all the time, even for humanitarian missions.

Iraq, on the other hand, was a war of aggression, in fact a war crime, for which the criminals who orchestrated it should be in jail. Millions protested all over the world and everyone knew their fake evidence was a lie.

To compare the two votes is the HEIGHT of disingenuousness. But keep going, it's a great strategy.

[Sheepshank]

46. war crimes...you raise another interesting issue

Obama being shat upon for his lack of prosecutions. I do remember threads a month or so ago, already bashing Hillary for her presumed lack or prosecutions. Will Bernie prosecute for war crime if he gets into office? Has he spoken out on this at all?

[BrotherIvan]

53. I do not believe he has spoken about it yet

But if he did, since he vehemently argued against the war, he has at least standing. And the US doesn't have to bring the charges itself. It only has to stop using its might, including at the State Department and Justice Department, to shield them. Plenty of countries want to try them in international court.

I don't know if Bernie will go that far. But I can say with 99.9999999% accuracy that we won't hear a speech where he says, "We tortured some folks" and then goes on to justify said torture.

And I believe it was Warpy that said that it always takes a few generations to get war criminals historically. Some of them, like Cheney and Rummy might be dead. But not all of them. And it is usually a sign that the country wants a new start and admits the sins of its past. So it might be a few more presidencies. But I will say, I don't think a Sanders administration will contain so many fucking Bushies and neocons. That in and of itself is a plus. And I think in stark contrast to what Clinton will do.

[Sheepshank]

81. Agree with your last paragraph 100%

BUT, it should seem obvious that the last paragraph applies to candidates other than Bernie Sanders too.

[BrotherIvan]

87. I will say without hesitation that I think neocons will be in a Clinton

administration. She, herself, is a hawk. In her stumps she keeps slipping in lines about Iran. WTF is that about? Why not push for the Obama agreement with some diplomacy. It is doubtful this is anything but fearmongering to create votes. And it is shameful.

[AgingAmerican]

38. The Kosovo war was a NATO action

Whom we are bound to by treaty. It wasn't 'Bill Clinton's war'.

[Sheepshank]

40. so then his vote was ok...because XXXX excuses?

The rest of the historical write up (up to 2006) is quite enlightening. Voting for wars, multiple times for fundings etc, paints a very different picture than has been presented here on DU that Bernie NEVER votes for war.

That was the only purpose of my post...to set these records straight. If there is a reason for war fine, but to pretend the vote was never made, well that's a whole other ball of wax.

[AgingAmerican]

42. The Kosovo war is the only post WWII military action I agree with

It was launched to halt ongoing genocide. Had they done the same thing in Rwanda, I would have supported that too.

[BrotherIvan]

45. I agree with you upthread

This line of argument shows just how weak the accusation is. Your posts were much more concise than mine.

[Babel_17]

68. I supported the end to ethnic cleansing as well

And I was proud of how well our guy, General Wesley Clark, commanded our troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark#Kosovo_War

How could the world's sole super power stand by and allow ethnic cleansing to go unanswered?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Yugoslav_Wars#War_crimes

I won't support a candidate who ignored war crimes.

[eridani]

107. NATO not only let ethnic cleansing in the Krajina go unopposed, but actively supported it

Either ethnic cleansing in the Krajina and Kosovo are both bad, or they are both good. Which is is?

[Babel_17]

112. Link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#War_crimes

https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/c/croatia/croatia968.pdf

I found those but not seeing where NATO actively supported ethnic cleansing. Not making sure it doesn't happen is different. Then we have to look at due diligence, etc.

First I've heard of the name, btw.

I'm not doubting that innocent civilians, or POWs, were killed or abused all over the place.

[eridani]

117. NATO aid was indirect

Probably more to the point is that no NATO member thought the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina was worth stopping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

In March 1994, the Washington Agreement was signed,[41] ending the Croat–Bosniak War, and providing Croatia with US military advisors from Military Professional Resources Incorporated (MPRI).[42] The US involvement reflected a new military strategy endorsed by Bill Clinton in February 1993.[43] Because the UN arms embargo was still in place, MPRI was hired ostensibly to prepare the HV for participation in the NATO Partnership for Peace programme. MPRI trained HV officers and personnel for 14 weeks from January to April 1995. It has also been speculated in several sources,[42] including an article in The New York Times by Leslie Wayne and in various Serbian media reports,[44][45] that MPRI may also have provided doctrinal advice, scenario planning and US government satellite intelligence to Croatia,[42] although MPRI,[46] American and Croatian officials have denied such claims.[47][48] In November 1994, the United States unilaterally ended the arms embargo against Bosnia and Herzegovina,[49] in effect allowing the HV to supply itself as arms shipments flowed through Croatia.[50]


http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-croatia-war-crimes-krajina-largest-act-of-ethnic-cleansing-since-the-holocaust/20492


On August 4, 1995, the Croatian Government, a proxy and satellite state of the U.S., launched the largest act of ethnic cleansing of the entire Yugoslav conflict of the 1990s.

From 250,000 to 300,000 Krajina Serbs were driven from their ancestral homes in the largest act of ethnic cleansing since the Holocaust, since the end of World War II in 1945.

Krajina Serb refugees listed the names of 2,650 Serbs who were killed in this unprecedented act of genocide. But because the U.S. Government and media orchestrated and planned this genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign, it was covered-up and censored and suppressed.

The Krajina genocide resulted in the destruction and elimination of an entire people, the Krajina Serbs.

The Genocide Convention was meant to prevent the kinds of war crimes and crimes against humanity that occurred in Krajina against the Serbian population. An entire people was left without a trace.

The Krajina ethnic cleansing orchestrated by the U.S. Government and media was the only genuine and real genocide that occurred during the Yugoslav secessionist conflicts of the 1990s. But because the U.S. planned and organized this genocide, it has been censored and suppressed.

Serbian houses, homes, businesses, churches, and property were systematically targeted in an organized genocide. Serbian civilians were murdered. Pro-Nazi and Ustasha graffiti were painted on destroyed and burned Serbian houses and property.

[Babel_17]

119. A really bad situation

A lot of ugliness bubbles up in conflicts like these. Scores get settled and new injustices occur. Ethnic hatred provides the drumbeat, and people dance to the tune of war.

[eridani]

147. There were no good guys at all, which is the main reason--

--I objected to and still object to NATO picking a side.

[A Simple Game]

79. Tell all of us, how many Americans died in the Kosovo war?

And did that war accomplish it's goal? Did you pick a good example?

As for Bernie funding troops in the field, would you have had him desert them to scavenge for their supplies? Bernie has a stellar record of supporting the troops during and after combat.

So Bernie knows how to pick em, and supports the troops. Got anything else?

Bernie the hawk, that must be a new one even for the Hillary supporters.

[FloridaBlues]

80. I was wondering when someone was going to point out those issues.

[cui bono]

92. You left out how he talks and fights against racism, sexism and homophobia.

Bernie is the only candidate who is strong on all those issues and has been for decades. And he speaks the strongest against banksters, which is the biggest problem right now because it affects everybody in this country and soon, the world if we let another candidate in who is beholden to big corporate money, which he will not be.

[eridani]

106. He signed a Gay Preide declaration in Burlington in 1985, supported Jessie Jackson's--

--presidential bid, and helped desegregate Chicago schools. That just proves he has no clue about social issues.

[PatrickforO]

13. When the message and the 40 year record get out, Bernie will win.

[Hepburn]

16. Your avatar, my hero...from the time I was a small child.

We need another FDR, or HST, and Bernie is it, IMO.

[sabrina 1]

18. It's still a democracy. A damaged one no doubt, but the people are standing up now

as was bound to happen. Enough with these rich, corrupt banks running this country. Bernie will win this election no matter how many lies and nonsense they throw around. Because he is honest, period.

[Indepatriot]

19. In 07' I remember telling a friend I liked Obama but "there's no way a black man with a name like a

terrorist can get elected." 4 months later I was working on his campaign....

[lewebley3]

23. Sanders supporters are lying about his polls, He doesn't not have the American peoples support

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 02:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Hillary, has the American people support!

[OnlyBelieveinScience]

25. ...

[frylock]

50. What polls are "Sanders supporters are lying about"?

[lewebley3]

60. The latest CNN polls, show Bernie doesn't have a chance, either in Iowa or New hamshire

[frylock]

67. Ah, well I guess it's all over then..

no need for Clinton supporters to lose any sleep about Sanders then. I'm sure we can expect a sharp decrease in OPs misrepresenting Sanders views and votes since this thing is in the bag a good 8 months before any caucus or primaries have taken place.

[Comrade Grumpy]

73. I didn't realize the New Hampshire primary and the Iowa caucus were this week.

[lewebley3]

125. Listen to Bill Press talk show: He is always misleading about Sanders numbers

Bill Press supported Jerry Brown, when Bill Clinton ran for the Presidency,
Press is still smarting after losing to the Clintons. He would
do anything to hurt the Clintons.

[frylock]

127. Still does not address my question to you:

Specifically, what polls are "Sanders supporters are lying about"?

[lewebley3]

131. Yes: I have go to real clear poltics, or CNN lastest polls, or Media Matters

Sanders not even close

[frylock]

132. Sanders just entered the race, and receives a bump every week..

Clinton has nowhere to go but down, which she is doing. Seeing the figurative 1000-yard stare from Clinton and her supporters once Sanders surpasses her lead is going to be delicious.

[rhett o rick]

95. You are accusing Sen Sander's supporters of lying? Without any proof?

Sen Sanders has the support of the people while HRC has the support of Goldman-Sachs and the Wall Street Gang.

[lewebley3]

124. Wrong: Hillary's leads in all poll with subtantial numbers

Sanders doesn't' even register high enough in the poll to even to
count him. Hillary, supporters come from millions of Americans
Dem, Ind, and GOP people.
Sanders supporters have to come to terms with the fact that Hillary
actually loved by American's. I know that is hard because they don't like
bright successful women.

Look Media matters: Sanders is not completive at all with Hillary,
and he is a loser against the GOP if he were to get the nomination.

[rhett o rick]

137. Never a need to call people in DU liars.

[lewebley3]

141. Okay: they are misleading about the truth!

[Deadshot]

27. Imagine what would happen if everyone who said that

"I Like Him, But He Can't Win" actually voted for Bernie.

Bernie would win.

[Hepburn]

32. Seems to me that is what happened when many said Obama could not win.

I really, really like Bernie...and I do believe he can win both the primary and general elections.

[BrotherIvan]

35. Yup

If he could get the people who want to vote for him to do so, then he can win. It's ironic. His campaign knows this and has this bumper sticker for sale on the website:

[rocktivity]

34. Sounds familiar...

rocktivity

[BrotherIvan]

37. I heard that so many times I can't begin to count

I heard, the South and the Midwest will never vote for a black man! He will only win cities! All subtle, racist jabs and guess who kept them going?

[-Bernie-]

36. I was undecided up until last week.

Then went firmly into the Bernie side!

[brooklynite]

43. Explain HOW Bernie Sanders can win the General Election...because this article doesn't explain it

This article talks about his competitiveness in the Primaries. Explain how Sanders wins a national election in which Republicans and conservative independents vote as well.

[BrotherIvan]

48. If Bernie Sanders can beat the most formidable candidate in the primary

He can win the general. Because of electoral math and because there is absolutely no Republican in the clowncar that independents will vote for. It doesn't matter how much money fathead Bush has, he is an idiot with a very dark past. And he's a Bush. The argument of dynasties is neutralized when it's Clinton against Bush. He is actually a stronger candidate against him because he is a clear contrast.

That's how.

[Gothmog]

126. There is a question of which comes first, the chicken or the egg

In order to win the Democratic primary, Sanders is going to have to prove that he is viable in a general election battle against the Kochs and a RNC nominee who will likely raise a ton of money. So far, I have seen nothing that shows that Sanders is viable and even Sanders admits that he will be out spent. In today's world, one has to be able to raise adequate funding to run and there is no evidence that Sanders will be able to do this.

Before, Sanders can realisitically expect the Democratic base to vote for him, he will have to do something to show that he is viable in the general election.

[frylock]

51. How does Clinton garner votes from Republicans and conservative independents?

[brooklynite]

56. She's always polled well with moderate independents and suburban Republican women...

...I thought you knew that one reason some people here don't like her.

In any event, recurring polling shows she defeats every major Republican candidate in every key State. The only head to head polling with Sanders shows him losing.

[frylock]

57. Then you have nothing to worry about!

[brooklynite]

59. ...and I'm not.

But since we happen to be hanging out at a political blog, I'm inclined to ask people to justify their assertions on political issues. I'm willing to do it; so should you.

[Indepatriot]

52. He can't Brooklynite. Hillary is inevitable cause

Sanders is a sexist/bigot/socialist/oldwhiteguy and Hillary is the second coming of Mother Theresa. Now go help her count all that Wall Street cash and we'll see you in 16'

[Indepatriot]

54. Oh, I forgot GUN NUT

[brooklynite]

76. So, you CAN'T explain how Sanders wins...thanks for clarifying

[Indepatriot]

82. You win. Hillary will be our next president.

[AgingAmerican]

55. Sanders positions are widely popular across the political spectrum

Most of them poll well with 2/3 of the electorate. You don't abandon your base by wooing Republicans and right wing 'Independents'. That is Third Way® crap. That is how you lose elections.

Bernie will win on ideas.

[Hepburn]

75. Well, I just came back from lunch and I can see where Bernie has a great chance on the General

Went to lunch with an elderly (85 years old), white, male engineer. Strictly Repuke material. Hates Hillary and does not like Obama. But...he likes Bernie. Why? His Response: Because Bernie speaks to the issues and not around them. My friend particularly likes Bernie's stance on higher education costs.

I don't dislike Hillary and if she is the nominee, I plan to support her. I just like Bernie better -- especially on the issue of his vote on the Iraqi war.

[NorthCarolina]

84. You are hiding your head in the sand

Do this, head on over to Huffpo and start reading the comments there for this article. You don't have to get very far down the list before noticing a pattern of Republicans claiming they support Bernie. GOP base voters are listening to him, and many are liking what he has to say. I can guarantee you that is a segment of the electorate Hillary could NEVER touch.

[eridani]

109. Bernie has a substantial amount of support from Republicans and independents in Vermont

Not only that, he is mobilizing a lot of alienated people who have not been motivated to participate before.

[Jack Rabbit]

49. Let me put it this way . . .

1. There isn't a Republican announced or likely to announce that can be taken seriously. I certainly think Bernie can beat any of them; even Hillary can beat any of them.
2. After they've lost one congressional election after another and completely fucked up the world with "free" trade agreements and the coddling of Wall Street banksters, I have have become less and less interested in who the Democratic Party's so-called leaders thinks is or isn't electable. They may think a left wing program has no appeal, but somebody forgot to give the Greek people the memo; as we Yanks face increasing income inequality, we've thrown our copies of that same memo in the round file.
3. Reagonomics, trickle-down economics, neolibralism, the third way or whatever you want to call it is a miserable failure that is only good for making the rich richer while destroying the planet and making democratic institutions impotent. It is an unsustainable model that seeks to prove that capitalism can exist without a middle class.
4. Banks don't produce wealth and finance can never be the anchor that strong, stable economy together. Big banks are not too big to fail, but big bankers are too big for their breeches nowadays. The likes of Legs Dimon and Pretty Boy Lloyd need to be put in their place, which is an eight by ten cell.

[George II]

58. Not from the people I've spoken to, nor have I changed my feeling about his electibility.

Almost the entire mid-western, southern, and most of the southwestern states won't vote for him, which doesn't leave much - some New England states (Maine is a wild card), New York, Florida, the west Coast.

But that's no concern, he won't even come close to winning the nomination anyway. Other than maybe NH and Vermont, I don't see him winning any other primaries or caucuses.

[BrotherIvan]

90. You mean he'll win the big states on the coast and lose the red states?

Yes, that is probably true. So did Obama. And?

[Autumn]

62. People who "utter" that phrase want someone else to win,

but she won't win this time either.

[Sheepshank]

70. 4th of July BBQ

the most beautiful mountain setting, great food, wine, beer and good conversation. As it turns out, our liberal get together agreed that Bernie can't win.

[marble falls]

83. I used to think he mightened not be electable, but I think now he may well be...

I'll support him into the convention.

[BrotherIvan]

91. Read the comments on the article

Things are changing.

[marym625]

98. damn straight he will!

#Bernie2016!

[R. P. McMurphy]

99. Bernie is a winner and a champion!

Taking our country back - one set of opened eyes at a time.

BERNIE IS THE REAL DEAL!

[malokvale77]

108. On another topic...

I love your DU name.

He's been one of my favorite characters from long before Jack Nicholson made him famous.

[ybbor]

105. Welcome aboard

I got on several years ago due to his Brunch with Bernie segment on Thom Hartmann.

Bernie is the bomb!

[malokvale77]

110. Yes Hepburn he can.

But I have no doubt the party will stop at nothing to prevent that.

The owners of DU have made it clear, that supporters of Bernie Sanders are not welcome.

They really should change their name.

I FULLY SUPPORT BERNIE SANDERS!

I'm fighting for my children and grandchildren now. My whole adult life has been full of strife , thanks to our Corporatist Government.

Go Bernie.

[emulatorloo]

128. Sorry, DU site owners are very supportive of Sanders supporters imho.

Skinner and Earlg are good honest men, and work hard to keep this site evenhanded.

[IronLionZion]

111. There really is only one way to find out for sure

and that's why we have elections! The only way to prove someone is electable, is to elect him!


There is no way in hell that America would ever elect a black(mixed-race) man with a name that rhymes with Iraq and Osama and middle name is Hussein. He certainly would not win a major landslide including electoral votes from Nebraska, Indiana, Nevada, Virginia, Colorado, Iowa, Ohio, and North Carolina. It...just....can't!



I'm excited about the turnout from previously disillusioned liberals and corresponding liberal wave that would sweep across state and local elections across the country. I hope it's huge. Make it happen

[McCamy Taylor]

113. No, he can not win. If he is the nominee, they will McGovern him. He has too many weaknesses

of a political nature to exploit.

I am convinced that he knows he can not get the nomination, he is running so that no one else can attack from the left. In other words, he is supporting Clinton.

[Indepatriot]

114. I'll have a 1/2 ounce of whatever you're smokin'....... He's supporting Hillary?!!!!!!!!!

[sabrina 1]

115. Yes he can and he will!

[madokie]

116. I think Bernie will win this

His message is resonating with the 99% of us who actually do the voting.

[Feeling the Bern]

118. As my screen name says, Feeling the Bern!

[LWolf]

121. Of course he can win.

"I like him, but he can't win," is a self-fulfilling prophecy; if everyone who "likes" him votes for him, he'll win.

Fortunately, more and more people are leaving that failing idea behind.